Peter Ostry

Does anyone know how to interpret the SysEx data of the program dumps from Eventide Factor pedals? Pitch, Time and Space. I want to set knobs in Max to the current values of the pedals, but I can't find a method in the SysEx string which changes in multiple places at the same time. I can't even find the value of a single knob. Unfortunately, the "Programmer's reference manual" does not help.

Alternatively, I would query the values of each button individually, but I can't do that at all. Can only request the program dump, but not interpret it.

Does anyone have experience with this, or an example?

Does anyone know how to interpret the SysEx data of the program dumps from Eventide Factor pedals? Pitch, Time and Space. 

parsing-sysex-from-eventide-factor-series

Does this help?
https://www.zikinf.com/manuels/eventide-modfactor-infos-sysex-en-46962.pdf 

I have this paper but don’t understand it.

For example:
knob values in hex, 0 to 7FE0, reading from bottom left knob (Xknob, D-Mod) to top left knob (Mix/Intensity)

What is "0 to 7FE0" which may mean something like "0 to 127 224" in decimal? 
I’ve read that they use nibbles instead of single values and I see the length of the SysEx string changing at different settings of a single knob. Maybe this "0 to 7FE0" thing adds and removes bytes. I just can’t see a pattern.


It has been a while since I have dealt with sysex messages but E0  and F7 have particular uses in building up midi messages to denote the start and end of a message. See the text in the same PDF
Standard Non-Real Time

0xF0 0x7E <channel number> <sub-ID#1> <sub-ID#2> ..... 0xF7

the 0xF0 and 0xF7 are standard MIDI for start of system exclusive, and end of system exclusive. Note that 0xF0 (for example) is a hexadecimal representation of the decimal value 240, while 0xF7 (sometimes known as EOX) is decimal 247.

<channel number> must be either 0x7F or equal to the unit’s configured SYSEX ID (0 in update mode).
<sub-ID#1> <sub-ID#2> give more information about the message type.

looking at it again and also looking at my time factor, some of the knobs transmit a wide range of values - beyond 127. these must be described by the combination of the two sysex values 7F and E0. 

Do you have the program dump of the TimeFactor in Max and can you see the relevant bytes  while you turn one knob?

I turned the Mix knob on the device slowly, requested a program dump at every changed value and watched the SysEx dump live in a message box. I could not tell how I would be able to parse that knob value. Do you see more?

I do not have a program dump of the time factor. I don't think it Is possible to see the bytes while turning one knob. The pedal can be setup to send MIDI control messages when knobs are turned so that one can theoretically control other devices. The MIDI CC coming out is between 0 and 127. I think the bytes you are after are only relevant to the internal saving and transmitting of preset information. 

Ok, then we are not talking about the same thing. Thank you anyway!

In case anybody here has analytic SysEx-eyes, here are four preset dumps. All knobs on the hardware are at zero, just one knob has different values:

Here are the message boxes of that patch:

28 = <<EVENTIDE> 0x1C (decimal 28)
112 = <H4000> 0x70 (decimal 112).
15 = device id
79 = <message_code> in this case SYSEXC_TJ_PROGRAM_DUMP 0x4f

what follows is described as <lots-o-bytes>

if one removes the header and F7 (dec 247)
and convert "data" to ascii
you get something as it is described on last page of that pdf file.


now have fun trying to understand the values, nibbles etc



First breakthrough:
Source Audio told me to convert the dump to ASCII.
Thank you very much for that, now I can see the nibbles.

Second breakthrough:
I discovered, that [sprintf] can directly convert nibbles like 7fe0 to decimal. Actually the PitchFactor sends knob values 0-32736 and the same MIDI value is not always the same nibble.

Okay, it took me a few patch variations, a few hours and a few cups of coffee, but it ended up being easier than expected: 

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Coffee is healthy !
Glad you worked it out, sweetest cake is allways self baked one 


Parsing SysEx from Eventide Factor series

Blair

How can I remove right hand-side margin gap? I tried making the picture wider but it is still there. I am using a pictctrl button to display the image.

image.png

How can I remove right hand-side margin gap? I tried making the picture wider but it is still there. 

how-do-i-remove-right-hand-side-gap-in-my-max4live-device

search “set device width”, then drag it over. Might have to zoom out sometimes to see the end.

I wasn't able to find that setting when searching, but I fixed the issue by defining the 3rd value here :)

How do I remove right hand side gap in my max4live device?

free horses

I've been following along on MaxMSP tutorials, and so far the granular synth patch works great as a monophonic pitched keyboard, but having a hard time understanding how to change this so that it can play more than one note at the same time on the Kslider? It would look as if it's working but it's not... I can see the numbers change after each mtof box when each key is pressed.

Would anybody be able to help me with this? I would greatly appreciate it as I'm struggling a little.

Thanks so much if anybody is willing to help, happy to send parts of the patch if needed.

synthhelp.jpg

I've been following along on MaxMSP tutorials, and so far the granular synth patch works great as a monophonic pitched keyboard, but having a hard time understanding how to change this so that it can play more than one note at the same time on the Kslider? It would look as if it's working but it's not...  I can see the numbers change after each mtof box when each key is pressed.
Would anybody be able to help me with this? I would greatly appreciate it as I'm struggling a little.

Thanks so much if anybody is willing to help, happy to send parts of the patch if needed.

Hi there,
I've been following along on MaxMSP tutorials, and so far the granular synth patch works great as a monophonic pitched keyboard, ... 

how-to-make-a-granular-synth-have-polyphonic-playable-pitch-currently-only-works-monophonic-help!

A first thing: you should certainly connect the second outlet of [notein] to the right inlet of [kslider], otherwise, you don't have note offs.

Also, I'm not sure which tutorial you are referring to, but most often, a granular synthesizer is meant to play many grains at the same time, i.e. there is already a polyphony of grains, but not necessarily a polyphony of pitches. Often, the pitch is "fixed" with some amount of detuning - in this patch see "variation_pitch". 
So, here, the mc construct is meant to carry different grains.
To make the patch "polyphonic", you need an additional layer of abstraction (could be poly~), or work on the structure of the patch itself: you could tell different grains to play around different pitch values (for instance, 20 grains around a specific pitch, 20 other grains around another pitch) - that might be the easier route.

Thank you Jean-Francois, I'll have a further look into how I can make this work, much appreciated

I would suggest you try to make a polyphonic synth that's not a granular one first (MSP Polyphony Tutorials in Max Help, if you want to get started with poly~, and/or see the guide "MC Wrapper Polyphony" in the Reference as well). Then you can graduate to the granular one (again, the reason it's more complex is that a "monophonic" granular synth is already a polyphony of grains).

Stuck learning Polyphony in Max, Help!

phatline

The named Subpatchers in there receive non of them?

Should this be? What is the workaround? I dont want to make 16inlets in the subpatcher only for let ín params from outside!?

My Main Gen~ receive all param´s.
The named Subpatchers in there receive non of them?

param-in-gen-subpatcher-dont-receive-anything

I think I ran into this as well. Nesting param operators in Gen doesn't seem to be supported.


You would use the setparam operator in a case like that


Damn, I wish I had found that last semester. That should allow me to make some Gen patches considerably less messy.

Here's a commented version of what Gregory posted. I'm very OCD about documenting how things work and this is an example of the kind of basic help patchers I wish existed for Gen to help us mortals get our heads around simple patching operations like this in Gen.


Not that nice that I wished, but a way better workaround then using inputs instead.

Ahhh this is how to use setparam, I was´nt clear about how it should work.

I have deleted one line in your doc-help-patcher, since it wasnt necessery...

When I see the word 'function' I'm led to believe different instances of the same object can receive different parameter values. Is there a way to have multiple copies of an identical gen subpatch, each of which receive different params from the parent gen patch? Or, does one edit each one to have different params internally?


That is not to say I am not delighted with being able to make subpatches in gen. Great improvement already )


Each subpatcher has its own instances of parameters.  You use setparam to manipulate them independently.  


Hmm. Is there a way to make unique parameter names based on the name of the function container?


Seconding Ernest's question. I'd love to be able to create sub patches in gen with unique Data names, similar to #0 functionality in Max.

You can use the "+ name of param" as well in your subpatch. 

param in gen subpatcher dont receive anything

tedor

I am wondering which is the fasters way of getting a change from 0 to 1 then back to 0 in a number box?

A numberbox change should open a gate whenever the number changes.

Instead of the toggle I would like to have something which changes from 0 to 1 and back to 0 with one bang.

I am wondering which is the fasters way of getting a change from 0 to 1 then back to 0 in a number box? 

0 - 1 - 0
A numberbox change should open a gate whenever the number changes.
Instead of the toggle I would like to have something which changes from 0 to 1 and back to 0 with one bang.

Is there a nice object somewhere?
Help appreciated!

0-1-0-with-one-bang-or-integer-change

! use [trigger] on the output of the gate to close the gate before passing the data


>
> Dear Max user,
>
> I am wondering which is the fasters way of getting a change from 0  
> to 1 then back to 0 in a number box?
>
> 0 - 1 - 0
> A numberbox change should open a gate whenever the number changes.
> Instead of the toggle I would like to have something which changes  
> from 0 to 1 and back to 0 with one bang.
>
> Is there a nice object somewhere?
> Help appreciated!
>
> all the best,
> Krisztian


On 3 nov. 08, at 14:42, tedor wrote:
>
> I am wondering which is the fasters way of getting a change from 0  
> to 1 then back to 0 in a number box?

> 0 - 1 - 0
> A numberbox change should open a gate whenever the number changes.

But what is supposed to close the gate? If you want to have data going  
thru it, [t 0 1 0] may be too fast... You may close when dsomething  
gos thru the gate (using something like [t l 0]  with 0 connected to  
the gate control inlet).

_____________________________
Patrick Delges

Centre de Recherches et de Formation Musicales de Wallonie asbl
http://www.crfmw.be/max


if it is the changing number you want to pass
all you need is [change]

Thank you for your help, I am sorted now.
Best
K


I am having the same issue as Tedor had. I am a new max user and I want to convert a bang signal into an integer box that goes from 0-1-0 again.  As these questions where posted in 2008 the answers in the replies don't make any sense for me and are not working in my patch. Does anybody can help me with this? 

Hello, the 2008's answers should work.
Maybe can you post your patch..


I added a comment to where I want my bang to be converted to a number box that goes 0-1-0. Again I'm quite new to the program so I'm pretty much doing very simple things.


Thats exactly what I was searching for. Thanks you so much, I appreciate it!

it timed output is needed , there are several options

If you're new to Max, you will also need to learn the [trigger] object:


0 - 1 - 0 with one bang or integer change

Max  Wolph

i'm kind of new to max, so forgive me if i am asking noob questions. I have a Livid Code controller, which i use to perform my projects.

So usuallly i have mapped some encoders to control autofilters and (depending on the project) other parameters like delay etc.

Because i have many projects i want an overview which parameter is mapped to which cc. Most times when i open a project, i have something like 15 CCs mapped and have to find out every time, what encoder is mapped to which encoder.

, where all 32 CCs are displayed, and when a ableton parameter ist mapped to one of them i want to see the name of the parameter, and maybe the value.

In the end i want the grafic to show up on a display, linked to a adruino, but thats a topic for another post in the future.

i'm kind of new to max, so forgive me if i am asking noob questions. I have a Livid Code controller, which i use to perform my projects.
So usuallly i have mapped some encoders to control autofilters and (depending on the project) other parameters like delay etc.
Because i have many projects i want an overview which parameter is mapped to which cc. Most times when i open a project, i have something like 15 CCs mapped and have to find out every time, what encoder is mapped to which encoder.

I found a part of the solution, but i would like a graphic, where all 32 CCs are displayed, and when a ableton parameter ist mapped to one of them i want to see the name of the parameter, and maybe the value.

In the end i want the grafic to show up on a display, linked to a adruino, but thats a topic for another post in the future. 

Hello dear community,
i'm kind of new to max, so forgive me if i am asking noob questions. 

read-the-name-of-a-parameter-mapped-to-midi-cc

an overview which parameter is mapped to which cc

This is not possible in the supported Live API.

when a ableton parameter ist mapped to one of them i want to see the name of the parameter, and maybe the value

Also not possible in the supported Live API.

Basically both boil down to the fact that given a DeviceParameter in Live, there is no API you can call to ask "what is controlling me?".  The most information you can get is "is_enabled" that can let you know if some Ableton parameter is mapped to it.

Everything else would be pretty fragile hacks, unfortunately.  I'd send a feature request to Ableton to support this -- I think it's an obviously valuable use case, and in Live 11 they even added the "Go to controlling device" contextual menu option, which is in the ballpark of what you're interested in.

Read the name of a parameter mapped to MIDI CC 

jo_leborgne

I'm searching for a m4l device that pop up a window displaying parameter's value (& name), each time I turn a knob,

just for a few second and then auto-close

I'm able to make it appear in the status bar with a python script, but that's too small, I want a bigger window , so when I'm on my controller I can do fine parameter adjusting

does it exist? or someone can help me to program it?

I'm searching for a m4l device that pop up a window displaying parameter's value (& name), each time I turn a knob,
just for a few second and then auto-close


I'm able to make it appear in the status bar with a python script, but that's too small, I want a bigger window , so when I'm on my controller I can do fine parameter adjusting


does it exist? or someone can help me to program it? 

 Hi there,

I'm searching for a m4l device that pop up a window displaying parameter's value (& name), each time I turn a knob,
just for a f

searching-for-a-device-displaying-parameter-value-name

I've make a try with the grab_midi function  (and copy&paste from other's patches)

 
 it looks like what I need, but there's some problems : 
I don't need forwarding buttons, only encoders and it doesn't work for all of them (the ones that are connect_to in the script,  for example to volumes) 
so I think the best would be to send the messages (strings) from the python script to the max device, 
somebody knows how to do that? 

Here is an M4L device I put together last night in Max 8.1.9.

This is in response to both this thread and the thread on Ableton's forum.

This is very rough and will need some commenting and polishing, but I want to make sure it's meeting the essential requirements and (with a revolting 128 concurrent live.observers) that it doesn't cause any performance drags on your system.

EDIT: I updated the attachment to include caveats re: current limitations:

- limited to devices on same track as .amxd
- limited to the parameters of the currently selected device
- popup window blocks mouse-based adjustment of device parameters, so this is a control-surface-only demo

is it possible for you to post the remote script you're using with SHOW MOVING PARAMETER so others can see how it works? 

I haven't dealt with remote scripts in well over a decade, I don't recall if it's possible to make one that's generalized for most any controller, but seeing how the script is forwarding values to this .amxd would be helpful for anyone that comes across this thread in the future. 

it's a remote script I've made for a BCR2000, that handle volume, sends and devices, 
and there is already in it a call (on start and on every changing of devices) that list a lot of devices,  so I've added the detection of the max device in this call :

def set_instrument(self,t,i):
	chd=[]
	trg=[]
	o=[]
	a=[]
	f=[]
	e=[]
	x=[]
	l=[]
	
	def get_dev_list(devs_list):
		r=[]
		for dev in devs_list:
			r.append(dev)
			if dev.can_have_chains:
				for c in dev.chains:
					r.extend(get_dev_list(c.devices))
		return r
 
	if t in self.song().tracks:
		for d in get_dev_list(t.devices):
			b=parameter_banks(d)
			if 'show'in d.name:
				for y in d.parameters:
					if 'dial'in y.name:
						self.show_parameter=y
						

self.show_parameter at the end is the dial of the max device
(it's maybe here that I can find another parameter that receive  text)

and then, as there were already a listener on encoders, I've added the sending trick to the max's dial:

@subject_slot_group('value')
def on_econtrols_value_changed(self,*a,**k):
	for x in a:
		if x in self.econtrols:
			o=x._orig_buttons[a[2]][a[1]]if isinstance(x,ButtonMatrixElement)else x
			if o.mapped_parameter():
				p=o.mapped_parameter()
				#self.show_message('            '+str(p.name)+'   '+str(p)+'   ')
				if p and p.is_enabled and self.show_parameter:
					self._tasks.add(Task.run(lambda:self.show_parameter_value(p)))
 

def show_parameter_value(self,p):
	self.show_parameter.value=((p.value-(p.min if not p.is_quantized and p.min<0 else 0))/float(p.max-p.min))*127

just setting the self.show_parameter.value is enough to change the dial value

and there was also those 2 lines in some other place in the script :
(to set the listener on the encoders)

self.econtrols=[self._vol_enc,self._dev_enc,self._sse_enc,self._svo_enc,self._sld_par_enc] 


self.on_econtrols_value_changed.replace_subjects(self.econtrols)

Thanks for adding this. Clearly, you know your way around scripts and the more expansive non-public API. It's frustrating that the more limited public API exposed through Max seems to be making this so complicated... the public API seems to prioritize a per-device approach to accessing these parameters that is very much in-line with how Ableton Push works, but not yet a great fit for those that need to reach across all devices + mixer on all tracks at once to get names/parameters. 

I hope someone out there knows how to capture the parameter name & value info that you're trying to forward to a live.dial within Max. 

A very crude suggestion in the meantime: if you already have a script that shows exactly the info you want on-screen, just not large enough, have you considered using a third-party magnification-window app to make the info you're already showing large-enough? 

If you don't intend to distribute this solution publicly, why not just magnify the portion of the screen that's too small so you can put this need to bed and get back to making music?

It seems there are a few different solutions out there for both Windows and OS X. 

thanks for the suggestion, I prefer that the floating window pop up only when I turn a encoder

in fact there is only one unofficial API (used with the push, the LOM), it's just that I've learned, with python, how to make lists of devices, parameters and then how to navigate through them. it's like recreate an interface of live, a custom one, on your control surface.

Re: the API, it is my understanding that:

1.  The public/supported API is all that can be addressed via the live.path, live.object, live.observer, live.remote~, and (for JavaScript) LiveAPI objects in Max. The LOM Document contains a complete list all Live API properties and functions addressable via Max for Live. Anything not in the LOM document is not addressable via Max for Live. 

2. The public/supported API is only a subset of the full (but not officially supported) Ableton Live API, addressable via Python. Ableton Live is one application with just one API, but only a portion of that API is officially supported and addressable directly-addressable via Max for Live. 

I'm not sure to understand, but I think everything is in the LOM, I use only that for my python script

There are things in the unofficial programmatically-generated API documentation (as seen on various 3rd party sites) that are not in the LOM documentation, such as the function "get_all_scales_ordered", but the biggest difference I've seen thus far is what your script seems to highlight: listening to changes in all devices across the entire Live Set seems fairly clean/straightforward in Python, whereas doing the same in Max would require procedurally-spinning up complex and potentially massive networks of live.observer modules per-device. It seems the performance hit from having this many live.observer modules might be a non-issue, but implementing a means to do this with potentially thousands of little graphical representations of live.object on-screen is just a mess... regardless of whether they are procedurally-generated and procedurally-removed or not. 

Anyway, your solution of using Python to manage the device listening and just send the current modulation(s) to a live.dial in Max is nice and clean, provided someone has means to deliver a Python-derived parameter name and value into Max. 

I suppose that functions as  "get_all_scales_ordered"  are just new, and not updated in the  LOM documentation, idk.

for the python script I 've put the listeners on the encoder, not on all the parameters. I suppose too it's more effective as there is less encoders (32) than parameters that I can handle with. (there are also listeners on the parameters connected to the encoders, but these listeners moves to other parameters when changing track/device selection)

The script is listing all the devices just to detect and list the ones that I need  to handle . There is a listener only on the API's  devices list for the selected track, which is triggered only on importing/deleting a device, to then reset/recreate this custom devices list (but no listener on those devices)

The way of listening encoders list seems clean maybe because  @subject_slot_group  is a tool from the framework, given by Ableton. In python you can program everything you use several times as sub-script (tools) to be more effective in your scripting way of programing, idk if it's possible in Max.

"whereas doing the same in Max would require procedurally-spinning up complex and potentially massive networks of live.observer modules per-device. It seems the performance hit from having this many live.observer modules might be a non-issue, but implementing a means to do this with potentially thousands of little graphical representations of live.object on-screen is just a mess... regardless of whether they are procedurally-generated and procedurally-removed or not."

FWIW this would actually be doable using JS for the observer lifetime management and jsui to render control values to the screen (it would be a catastrophe in Max code...).  The thing you'd want is to just have _one_ rendering function call which takes x,y origin coordinates for where in the jsui canvas to draw the controller value / name etc.  I did something similar for a 'mod matrix' (like the one in Live's Wavetable), and it stores a single image of the last state of all the controls on redraw so that when other control(s) value changes it redraws fairly efficiently --- even when there were 1000+ squares rendered.

searching for a device displaying parameter value (& name)

Samuel Karmel

I dowloaded from cycling 74 the run ready image (uses a full [Debian 11]) that max msp RNBO has created for the rasberry pie. I have a 4b. The installer for the Pisound wont work. i updated the kernel firmware as suggested but still doesn’t work.

b43dce949c0ca8cd57dbb9b63e20068d7f4276dc.jpeg

can anybody suggest the steps i need to take to get the pisound working with the suggested RNBO debian image.

I dowloaded from cycling 74 the run ready image (uses a full [Debian 11]) that max msp RNBO has created for the rasberry pie. I have a 4b. 

pisound-install-not-working-with-max-msp-rnbo-prefered-image

you have to download and run the "install.sh" file.
With the command you gave you just dumped the content of the file to terminal.
So the steps are:


download the file using the command: "curl -o install.sh https://blokas.io/pisound/install.sh" (the "-o" option followed by a destination tells curl to save the file. See here for reference.)

make the file executable: "chmod +x install.sh"

Now pisound should be installed on your Pi.

Hi Samuel,

I don't believe I had to do anything at all to get the pisound's audio/midi to work with the image we provide. It looks like pisound-config lets you configure the button details as well as some other things, but it shouldn't be important for getting the RNBO runner working with audio/MIDI.

Have you tried running Max and exporting a patcher to your PI? It might "Just work".. though you may have to explicitly select the pisound from the Max/RNBO export sidebar.

-Alex


Pisound install not working with max msp RNBO prefered image

Akihiro MORIGUCHI

It's a super newbie question but I don't know how to change the initial value of number box.

I just start learning max on Manjaro Linux with Wine Windows emulator.

So maybe it's a OS or window system dependent problem, I use Xfce4 window system.

I'm watching a YouTube tutorial below and a number box is appeared at around 9:33 .

On the video value is incremented gradually, by maybe mouse wheel?

But under my Linux I can't set the initial value of number box with mouse wheel.

I tried with double click or control+mouse wheel or alt+mouse wheel or all available combinations

of keys but can't change the default value 0.

If anyone know how to change the default value of number box on Linux, 

Hello,

It's a super newbie question but I don't know how to change the initial value of number box.

I just start learning max on Manjaro Linux with Wine Windows emulator.
So maybe it's a OS or window system dependent problem, I use Xfce4 window system.

I'm watching a YouTube tutorial  below and  a number box is appeared at around 9:33 .
https://youtu.be/jd3xV8mtmTM?t=573

On the video value is incremented gradually, by maybe mouse wheel?
But under my Linux I can't set the initial value of number box with mouse wheel.

I tried with double click or control+mouse wheel or alt+mouse wheel or all available combinations
of keys but can't change the default value 0.

If anyone know how to change the default value of number box on Linux, 
please let me know.

Hello,

It's a super newbie question but I don't know how to change the initial value of number box.

I just start learning max on Manjaro ... 

how-can-i-change-a-number-box-value-on-max-under-linux

the "normal" method to make an object start up with a custom state is to use [loadbang] to send that value into it.

some objects might also have a "default value" setting somewhere in their inspector.

otherwise GUI objects will always default to the lowest number.


the integer numberbox can be controlled with the arrow keys - the float number box can not.

WINE should not make any difference for mouse and keyboard input. if anything, you might experience drawing problems.


I checked the inspector and there are only Minimum and Maximum value.

The tutorial use integer numberbox, but  the box doesn't accept arrow keys, only move accordingly by the keys in my case.

Maybe I should ask to the "Max on Linux" thread https://cycling74.com/forums/max-on-linux?replyPage=3 .

Now I can change the value of Integer numberbox from Menu -> View -> Parameters. 
Thank you for your supports.

Welcome to the world of Max and Linux! Don't worry. We all start somewhere. Changing the initial value of a number box in Max is pretty simple, regardless of your operating system.

How can I change a number box value on max under Linux?

1/ there's a thread from 2015 about the contents of subpatchers disappearing - the original thread didn't come to a happy ending, because it was impossibly difficult to reliably reproduce the problem. It's happened to me a few times, and it just happened again in two subpatchers with contents that took a heartbreakingly long time to get right. At first, I thought I was just doing something stupid, but I'm a lot more experienced with gen~ now and having to consider that there's still some kind of bug that was never tracked down. Was there any progress since that old thread towards solving why this happens?

In my most recent case, the subpatchers were named using the @title attribute and for a long time were fine; then this morning, all the contents were gone and replaced with the default 2 in/1 out addition patch. The only thing I can think of is that I slightly revised my file structure and moved a few things around, but everything remained in the search path, and surely a search path issue wouldn't affect subpatchers (as opposed to abstractions) anyway? I've not had this happen with abstractions, however they were implemented (either just using the name of the abstraction, or using @gen or @file).

2/ In the Inspector window for gen abstractions, there's an entry at the very bottom that says "abstraction". Here's a screenshot:

Screenshot 2020-06-19 at 10.26.08.png

As you can see, there's no reference description, and I've been unable to find a comment about it anywhere in the documentation. There are several abstractions in my gen~ patcher, and they all say the same thing: "abstraction 1". If I check a normal subpatch, it says 0: does this entry simply tell you whether an abstraction has been used or not? This would be a different behaviour to the way things behave for subpatchers and bpatchers in the rest of Max, which name the abstraction.

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