CKNY

I post the same article in the jitter forum. Because I think some people in Max/MSP forum may not check out jitter forum very often, I post here again since my project is cover both Max/MSP and jitter and I need both of the advices. Please let me know or delete my post if this is not right.

I started my thesis project at Dec, 2006. I finish almost all the patches. All I need to do is put all the patches together and do the final adjustments.

The reason I didn't post the idea of my thesis earlier is because I know I am just a newbie of Max/MSP and jitter, I studied Max/MSP for one year and I studied jitter for just 5 months -- all by myself. I am not sure I can really finish my project. I have already explain (in the other post) that the reason I want to use Max/MSP and jitter for my thesis instead of choose audio engineering-related topics, so I am not going to say it again.

I think this is a simple project for many of you (I know you guys are all superman) but is really NOT easy for me because of my programming background. So please don't laugh at me if you think my project is too easy or too stupid.

The basic idea is I built a fish tank and I use iSight to track 5 different color fishes. After I get those 5 different fishes' position (x,y), I sent those position back to Max to do bunch of math/calculations and send it to MSP to the MSP synthesizer and to Ableton Live 5 through MIDI/Rewire. I also make bunch of animations in After Effects and Flash (simple flash action script 1 so flash file can get fishes' position). That's why I need those movie files and flash files can be playback in jitter. And the positions I get from fishes will be the very important reference numbers of my movie playback like position, size, rotation, zoom, blending mode.....etc. By the way, I also put a "green screen" in the back of the fish tank so I can use jit.chromakey to key out the green screen and combine/blend fishes' images into the movie files I made. That is the basic idea of my project. I actually add more details of it.

I hope everybody understand what I am talking about. I just want to create a environment which is totally "Native" and "Natural" as best as I can. My problem is I can not do anything I want because of my patch skill is still poor (or you can say sucks)....so I just try my best. However, I almost finish all the patches. I just need to put them together. Besides, I don't have any time now because my professors are waiting for the final defense.

There are two things I still not very satisfied: One is I send MIDI information to Ableton Live so I can remote Live's effects and loop points.......but I still need more ideas to make the loops in Live sound more "live". I mean, even I put more then 15 loops in live and use effects randomly and choose playback point randomly, I am still afraid that audience will get boring after keeping listening my music over 15 minutes. What I can do is just stop/start playback audio randomly or make playback stop/start by fishes' speed (I created a patch which can detect fishes' swimming speed, so if their swimming speed is lower then a level, the music will stop, only video shows)

The second thing is I don't know how to perfectly sync the MSP synthesizer I create in MSP with Live. (I tried but I failed). To make audio sounds better and reasonable is really not easy.

This is supposed to be a quiet ok project for you guys but not a easy project for me especially I have only learned Max/MSP for few months. I have already show my demo (except jitter part) to my professor and he think it is fine for him. However, I still think it is not enough because my professors knows nothing about Max/MSP (the degree I am taking and the department is not focus in this area)

Right now I need to do the final adjustments and make sure everything runs well. ( I mean, everything MUST runs well in my PowerMac G5 Dual 2.0 and my PowerBook G4 1.2) MJ told me that there are one people have already used fish tracking idea before. I believe(and I hope) that my project is different from this guy and there is no way to go back or redo my project.

Here I am opening for any additional ideas or advice for my project especially in MSP and Live 5 part. I also want to thanks for everybody's help, Wesley, MJ, Stefan, Vade....I mean, everybody who had ever answered my stupid questions before. You guys really help me a lot, I can not finish this project without this forum and all of you. Pleas take my best respect and my big thanks.

I post the same article in the jitter forum. Because I think some people in Max/MSP forum may not check out jitter forum very often, I post here again since my project is cover both Max/MSP and jitter and I need both of the advices. Please let me know or delete my post if this is not right. 

Here I am opening for any additional ideas or advice for my project especially in MSP and Live 5 part. I also want to thanks for everybody's help, Wesley, MJ, Stefan, Vade....I mean, everybody who had ever answered my stupid questions before. You guys really help me a lot, I can not finish this project without this forum and all of you. Pleas take my best respect and my big thanks.


about-my-ms-thesis-project-in-audio-engineering-but-really-nothing-about-audio-engineering

> This is supposed to be a quiet ok project for you guys but not a easy

> project for me especially I have only learned Max/MSP for few months.

> I have already show my demo (except jitter part) to my professor and

> he think it is fine for him. However, I still think it is not enough

> because my professors knows nothing about Max/MSP (the degree I am

> taking and the department is not focus in this area)

Don't get foold by the talk on the list here. You talk longer about your 

low skills, than about a specific problem, but I get an idea. I would 

agree to your professor. If you got this working so far, I'd be pleased. 

The project you choose is far from being simple.

My advice for you getting a more interesting soundscape is, to get rid 

of Live and do all in Max/MSP. There you have much more options.

I know there is not much time left, but I am sure your profesors will 

appreciate what's there already, and it seems your own interest is high 

enough to polish it into a beautiful work of art after your proudly 

Good luck and let us know how its going, I'd like to see the results 

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> This is supposed to be a quiet ok project for you guys but not a easy
> project for me especially I have only learned Max/MSP for few months.
> I have already show my demo (except jitter part) to my professor and
> he think it is fine for him. However, I still think it is not enough
> because my professors knows nothing about Max/MSP (the degree I am
> taking and the department is not focus in this area)

Don't get foold by the talk on the list here. You talk longer about your 
low skills, than about a specific problem, but I get an idea. I would 
agree to your professor. If you got this working so far, I'd be pleased. 
The project you choose is far from being simple.

My advice for you getting a more interesting soundscape is, to get rid 
of Live and do all in Max/MSP. There you have much more options.

I know there is not much time left, but I am sure your profesors will 
appreciate what's there already, and it seems your own interest is high 
enough to polish it into a beautiful work of art after your proudly 
received your degree...

Good luck and let us know how its going, I'd like to see the results 
some day on Youtube...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 00:27

----------------------------------------------------

> > This is supposed to be a quiet ok project for you guys but not a easy

> > project for me especially I have only learned Max/MSP for few months.

> > I have already show my demo (except jitter part) to my professor and

> > he think it is fine for him. However, I still think it is not enough

> > because my professors knows nothing about Max/MSP (the degree I am

> > taking and the department is not focus in this area)

> Don't get foold by the talk on the list here. You talk longer about your 

> low skills, than about a specific problem, but I get an idea. I would 

> agree to your professor. If you got this working so far, I'd be pleased. 

> The project you choose is far from being simple.

> My advice for you getting a more interesting soundscape is, to get rid 

> of Live and do all in Max/MSP. There you have much more options.

> I know there is not much time left, but I am sure your profesors will 

> appreciate what's there already, and it seems your own interest is high 

> enough to polish it into a beautiful work of art after your proudly 

> Good luck and let us know how its going, I'd like to see the results 

Thank you so much and thank you for all the time you help me. Can you talk a little bit more about "get more interesting sound scape"? Maybe an simple example or something. Yes, for MSP part, I really need some inspiration. Now I only have a synthesizer with some little thing like cycle~ and phasor~, it change the pitch, tempo according to fishes' positions. As you can see my audio part (MSP) is probably the weakest part in my project.

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 00:27
----------------------------------------------------
> UCDMSRA schrieb:
> > This is supposed to be a quiet ok project for you guys but not a easy
> > project for me especially I have only learned Max/MSP for few months.
> > I have already show my demo (except jitter part) to my professor and
> > he think it is fine for him. However, I still think it is not enough
> > because my professors knows nothing about Max/MSP (the degree I am
> > taking and the department is not focus in this area)
>
> Don't get foold by the talk on the list here. You talk longer about your 
> low skills, than about a specific problem, but I get an idea. I would 
> agree to your professor. If you got this working so far, I'd be pleased. 
> The project you choose is far from being simple.
>
> My advice for you getting a more interesting soundscape is, to get rid 
> of Live and do all in Max/MSP. There you have much more options.
>
> I know there is not much time left, but I am sure your profesors will 
> appreciate what's there already, and it seems your own interest is high 
> enough to polish it into a beautiful work of art after your proudly 
> received your degree...
>
> Good luck and let us know how its going, I'd like to see the results 
> some day on Youtube...
>
> Stefan
>
> -- 
> Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
> --_____-----------|--------------
> --(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
> -- _|_)----|-----()--------------
> ----------()--------www.ccmix.com
>
>
----------------------------------------------------

Thank you so much and thank you for all the time you help me. Can you talk a little bit more about "get more interesting sound scape"? Maybe an simple example or something. Yes, for MSP part, I really need some inspiration. Now I only have a synthesizer with some little thing like cycle~ and phasor~, it change the pitch, tempo according to fishes' positions. As you can see my audio part (MSP) is probably the weakest part in my project. 

To follow on from Stefan's wise words i would agree that it might be good to tackle the audio within Max/MSP.

As time is tight you might consider trawling through the forum archives for inspiration - it's amazing what gems are hiding here!

Also i thought you may be interested in this Darwin Grosse patch which is somehow very aquatic sounding and it illustrates perfectly that it's what a patch sounds like that counts, not how complex it is.

To follow on from Stefan's wise words i would agree that it might be good to tackle the audio within Max/MSP. 

Quote: Leafcutter John wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 09:04

> To follow on from Stefan's wise words i would agree that it might be good to tackle the audio within Max/MSP. 

> As time is tight you might consider trawling through the forum archives for inspiration - it's amazing what gems are hiding here!

> Also i thought you may be interested in this Darwin Grosse patch which is somehow very aquatic sounding and it illustrates perfectly that it's what a patch sounds like that counts, not how complex it is.

Actually, IDM-5 is the basic idea of my MSP synthesizer. I happened to saw this demo through the same author of rewire tutorial. He is amazing guy.

However, I think this is still not enough because I need something to convince me that the audience can stand in front of my project, listen to the sound and see the video but not feel boring over 15 minutes.

At that time I thought that if I can combine loops with MSP synthesizer, that will be more interesting. However, I don't have any good idea and good inspiration of how to play loops well in MSP. That's why I come out the idea of rewire MIDI information to Ableton Live. Obviously this idea doesn't work very well because I am still not satisfied.

If I stick all audio in MSP, maybe I should focus in sound sample and (not really need loops) and try to do some interesting thing, is that what you means?

thanks again, very appreciate your advices.

Quote: Leafcutter John wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 09:04
----------------------------------------------------
> To follow on from Stefan's wise words i would agree that it might be good to tackle the audio within Max/MSP. 
>
> As time is tight you might consider trawling through the forum archives for inspiration - it's amazing what gems are hiding here!
>
> Also i thought you may be interested in this Darwin Grosse patch which is somehow very aquatic sounding and it illustrates perfectly that it's what a patch sounds like that counts, not how complex it is.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> John.
>
----------------------------------------------------

Actually, IDM-5 is the basic idea of my MSP synthesizer. I happened to saw this demo through the same author of rewire tutorial. He is amazing guy. 

However, I think this is still not enough because I need something to convince me that the audience can stand in front of my project, listen to the sound and see the video but not feel boring over 15 minutes. 

At that time I thought that if I can combine loops with MSP synthesizer, that will be more interesting. However, I don't have any good idea and good inspiration of how to play loops well in MSP. That's why I come out the idea of rewire MIDI information to Ableton Live. Obviously this idea doesn't work very well because I am still not satisfied. 

If I stick all audio in MSP, maybe I should focus in sound sample and (not really need loops) and try to do some interesting thing, is that what you means? 

i know someone who did almost the exact same thing for a dissertation project at degree level. and it sounded boring. the only thing i would say, and i'm sure you're already aware of this, is make sure the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect. as john said, darwin grosse's patch is pretty amazing, and dead simple

Quote: robin wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 10:40

> i know someone who did almost the exact same thing for a dissertation project at degree level. and it sounded boring. the only thing i would say, and i'm sure you're already aware of this, is make sure the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect. as john said, darwin grosse's patch is pretty amazing, and dead simple

That's why I asked a very stupid question on this forum around a month ago about "how to make my MIDI music makes more sense to me". I was pulling my hair try to figure out how to fix my music because my audio sound really ugly and nonsense to me at that time. Luckily many people answered my questions and gave me some good directions. In the same time I found Darwin Grosse's IDM-5 and that is quiet a good inspiration.

Nobody want to hear people said his project seems or sounds boring. Until now I still feel that I can and I need to do something else in the audio part. I will try to figure out what interesting things I can do in sound samples so I can combine the synthesizer with more objects.

You are right, the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect, this is the perfect word to describe what I feels right now.

Quote: robin wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 10:40
----------------------------------------------------
> i know someone who did almost the exact same thing for a dissertation project at degree level. and it sounded boring. the only thing i would say, and i'm sure you're already aware of this, is make sure the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect. as john said, darwin grosse's patch is pretty amazing, and dead simple
>
> robin
----------------------------------------------------

That's why I asked a very stupid question on this forum around a month ago about "how to make my MIDI music makes more sense to me". I was pulling my hair try to figure out how to fix my music because my audio sound really ugly and nonsense to me at that time. Luckily many people answered my questions and gave me some good directions. In the same time I found Darwin Grosse's IDM-5 and that is quiet a good inspiration. 

Nobody want to hear people said his project seems or sounds boring. Until now I still feel that I can and I need to do something else in the audio part. I will try to figure out what interesting things I can do in sound samples so I can combine the synthesizer with more objects. 

the other issue, as important in an interactive/reactive installation like your setup, is ensuring any relationship between the components is clear. it needs to be obvious to the audience what effect the movement of your fish are having on the audio material. this relationship needs to be, if not obvious, at least discernable to some degree in order to stimulate interest. if there is something obvious that a viewer can pick out, then they will pay more attention, and gradually uncover different controlled parameters. this sense of achievement, of 'getting' it, will be a massive contributing factor to the reception of your work.

also, when i think of water, and the gliding movement of fish, i think more of slowly evolving textures than manipulated loops, but that's just me.

Quote: CKNY wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 12:41

> Nobody want to hear people said his project seems or sounds boring. Until now I still feel that I can and I need to do something else in the audio part. I will try to figure out what interesting things I can do in sound samples so I can combine the synthesizer with more objects. 

When you said "I am still afraid that audience will get boring after keeping listening my music over 15 minutes.", from the perspective of a music composer I think you would address that by making sure the music has different sections that contrast each other. In other words, develop the music over time instead of doing something static and repetitive (even with randomization, things can be very static). This should help maintain interest.

There are endless ways you can try to do that. One way is to setup something in MSP with the pattrstorage system, store different interesting presets for your synthesizer/sound generators, and then interpolate between the presets over the course of the piece. Another way might be to simply use different samples in the different sections. Sorry if this is obvious but I'm hoping it might spark some ideas.

Quote: CKNY wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 12:41
----------------------------------------------------
> Nobody want to hear people said his project seems or sounds boring. Until now I still feel that I can and I need to do something else in the audio part. I will try to figure out what interesting things I can do in sound samples so I can combine the synthesizer with more objects. 
>
----------------------------------------------------

When you said "I am still afraid that audience will get boring after keeping listening my music over 15 minutes.", from the perspective of a music composer I think you would address that by making sure the music has different sections that contrast each other. In other words, develop the music over time instead of doing something static and repetitive (even with randomization, things can be very static). This should help maintain interest. 

Quote: CKNY wrote on Fri, 10 August 2007 03:54

> I need something to convince me that the audience can stand in 

> front of my project, listen to the sound and see the video but 

Will the audience be able to see the fishtank, or just a video of it? Personally, I think I'd want to see the fishtank - and be able to scare the fish* to produce music.

(*Some fish were scared during the making of this video)

Quote: CKNY wrote on Fri, 10 August 2007 03:54
----------------------------------------------------
> I need something to convince me that the audience can stand in 
> front of my project, listen to the sound and see the video but 
> not feel boring over 15 minutes. 

(*Some fish were scared during the making of this video)


I did something similar back in 2000-2001 for the installation Ekkofisk 

in collaboration with Reinert Mithassel. If you search the archive of 

the MaxMSP list as well as the now more or less dead 55 list:

you should be able to find some mails with more info on the installation.

In brief we had two web cams monitoring a big aquarium with two gold 

fishes, tracking their positions and combining the results from the two 

cameras to calculate three-dimensional positions. Back then we used Nato 

This was then used to control a MSP patch generating sound: If the two 

fishes were close to each others they would sing (female and male 

voices), as they went further away you would instead hear bell-like sounds.

http://creativetechnology.salford.ac.uk/fuchs/modules/input_output/NIC2001/nic_fisk.htm

http://creativetechnology.salford.ac.uk/fuchs/modules/input_output/NIC2001/nic_fisk3.htm

http://www.bek.no/fatamorgana/nyekko.html

Early this year I completed a three year research fellowship in the arts 

at the Bergen National Academy of the Arts. As part of that I wrote a 

thesis dosumenting and reflecting on aspects of my artistic practice. 

From page 72 onwards I am discussing aspects of the sound synthesis 

used or the Ekkofisk installation. There's also plenty of discussion on 

work on sound in space etc. if anyone's interested. Due to the images, 

it's a mighty download (40 Mb or so), and I haven't had the time to 

compress it further, but it can be found here:

If I should add up the most basic lesson learned from work on synthesis 

for Ekkofisk, it would be: "Try adding some reverb".

> Quote: robin wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 10:40

> ----------------------------------------------------

>> i know someone who did almost the exact same thing for a dissertation project at degree level. and it sounded boring. the only thing i would say, and i'm sure you're already aware of this, is make sure the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect. as john said, darwin grosse's patch is pretty amazing, and dead simple

> That's why I asked a very stupid question on this forum around a month ago about "how to make my MIDI music makes more sense to me". I was pulling my hair try to figure out how to fix my music because my audio sound really ugly and nonsense to me at that time. Luckily many people answered my questions and gave me some good directions. In the same time I found Darwin Grosse's IDM-5 and that is quiet a good inspiration. 

> You are right, the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect, this is the perfect word to describe what I feels right now.

I did something similar back in 2000-2001 for the installation Ekkofisk 
in collaboration with Reinert Mithassel. If you search the archive of 
the MaxMSP list as well as the now more or less dead 55 list:

In brief we had two web cams monitoring a big aquarium with two gold 
fishes, tracking their positions and combining the results from the two 
cameras to calculate three-dimensional positions. Back then we used Nato 
for video tracking.

This was then used to control a MSP patch generating sound: If the two 
fishes were close to each others they would sing (female and male 
voices), as they went further away you would instead hear bell-like sounds.

http://creativetechnology.salford.ac.uk/fuchs/modules/input_output/NIC2001/nic_fisk.htm
http://tinyurl.com/37u8ca

http://creativetechnology.salford.ac.uk/fuchs/modules/input_output/NIC2001/nic_fisk3.htm
http://tinyurl.com/3xd7tz

Early this year I completed a three year research fellowship in the arts 
at the Bergen National Academy of the Arts. As part of that I wrote a 
thesis dosumenting and reflecting on aspects of my artistic practice. 
 From page 72 onwards I am discussing aspects of the sound synthesis 
used or the Ekkofisk installation. There's also plenty of discussion on 
work on sound in space etc. if anyone's interested. Due to the images, 
it's a  mighty download (40 Mb or so), and I haven't had the time to 
compress it further, but it can be found here:

If I should add up the most basic lesson learned from work on synthesis 
for Ekkofisk, it would be: "Try adding some reverb".

UCDMSRA wrote:
> Quote: robin wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 10:40
> ----------------------------------------------------
>> i know someone who did almost the exact same thing for a dissertation project at degree level. and it sounded boring. the only thing i would say, and i'm sure you're already aware of this, is make sure the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect. as john said, darwin grosse's patch is pretty amazing, and dead simple
>>
>> robin
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi Robin,
>
> That's why I asked a very stupid question on this forum around a month ago about "how to make my MIDI music makes more sense to me". I was pulling my hair try to figure out how to fix my music because my audio sound really ugly and nonsense to me at that time. Luckily many people answered my questions and gave me some good directions. In the same time I found Darwin Grosse's IDM-5 and that is quiet a good inspiration. 
>
> Nobody want to hear people said his project seems or sounds boring. Until now I still feel that I can and I need to do something else in the audio part. I will try to figure out what interesting things I can do in sound samples so I can combine the synthesizer with more objects. 
>
> You are right, the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect, this is the perfect word to describe what I feels right now.
>
> best,
>
> CK
>


Quote: johnpitcairn wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 15:27

> Quote: CKNY wrote on Fri, 10 August 2007 03:54

> > I need something to convince me that the audience can stand in 

> > front of my project, listen to the sound and see the video but 

> Will the audience be able to see the fishtank, or just a video of it? Personally, I think I'd want to see the fishtank - and be able to scare the fish* to produce music.

> (*Some fish were scared during the making of this video)

Well, audience will be able to see the fish tank. I even think of let audience feed the fish, once fish change the swimming speed, there are 4 different audio/video playback mode will show (according to the fish speed). However, I also afraid that if audience feed too many food to fishes, they will die (if you feed too many food to fish, they will keep eating until die). So, you idea is pretty good, scare the fish maybe better then keep feeding them until they die. :)

Quote: johnpitcairn wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 15:27
----------------------------------------------------
> Quote: CKNY wrote on Fri, 10 August 2007 03:54
> ----------------------------------------------------
> > I need something to convince me that the audience can stand in 
> > front of my project, listen to the sound and see the video but 
> > not feel boring over 15 minutes. 
>
> Will the audience be able to see the fishtank, or just a video of it? Personally, I think I'd want to see the fishtank - and be able to scare the fish* to produce music.
>
> (*Some fish were scared during the making of this video)
----------------------------------------------------

Well, audience will be able to see the fish tank. I even think of let audience feed the fish, once fish change the swimming speed, there are 4 different audio/video playback mode will show (according to the fish speed). However, I also afraid that if audience feed too many food to fishes, they will die (if you feed too many food to fish, they will keep eating until die). So, you idea is pretty good, scare the fish maybe better then keep feeding them until they die. :)


Quote: robin wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 13:59

> the other issue, as important in an interactive/reactive installation like your setup, is ensuring any relationship between the components is clear. it needs to be obvious to the audience what effect the movement of your fish are having on the audio material. this relationship needs to be, if not obvious, at least discernable to some degree in order to stimulate interest. if there is something obvious that a viewer can pick out, then they will pay more attention, and gradually uncover different controlled parameters. this sense of achievement, of 'getting' it, will be a massive contributing factor to the reception of your work.

> also, when i think of water, and the gliding movement of fish, i think more of slowly evolving textures than manipulated loops, but that's just me.

Your advice is very good. I actually thought of recording water and playback in real time with some effects (like change the pitch...), however, until now I haven't get any interesting sound that makes me feel "wow, this is good!!!" and put in my patch. One important reason is the only water sound I can record is actually just the water come out from filter of the fish tank, and it is a really small sound that I can not even pick up. When you mention "slowly evolving textures", I think that is very interesting point. I still think maybe I can get some very simple sound samples which related to fish and play with it.The thing is I may need to see more demo patches about fft~, pfft~, or confilter~ to get more inspiration.

Quote: robin wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 13:59
----------------------------------------------------
> the other issue, as important in an interactive/reactive installation like your setup, is ensuring any relationship between the components is clear. it needs to be obvious to the audience what effect the movement of your fish are having on the audio material. this relationship needs to be, if not obvious, at least discernable to some degree in order to stimulate interest. if there is something obvious that a viewer can pick out, then they will pay more attention, and gradually uncover different controlled parameters. this sense of achievement, of 'getting' it, will be a massive contributing factor to the reception of your work.
>
> also, when i think of water, and the gliding movement of fish, i think more of slowly evolving textures than manipulated loops, but that's just me.
>
> all the best
>
> robin
>
----------------------------------------------------

Your advice is very good. I actually thought of recording water and playback in real time with some effects (like change the pitch...), however, until now I haven't get any interesting sound that makes me feel "wow, this is good!!!" and put in my patch. One important reason is the only water sound I can record is actually just the water come out from filter of the fish tank, and it is a really small sound that I can not even pick up. When you mention "slowly evolving textures", I think that is very interesting point. I still think maybe I can get some very simple sound samples which related to fish and play with it.The thing is I may need to see more demo patches about fft~, pfft~, or confilter~ to get more inspiration. 

Quote: Trond Lossius wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 16:08

> I did something similar back in 2000-2001 for the installation Ekkofisk 

> in collaboration with Reinert Mithassel. If you search the archive of 

> the MaxMSP list as well as the now more or less dead 55 list:

> you should be able to find some mails with more info on the installation.

> In brief we had two web cams monitoring a big aquarium with two gold 

> fishes, tracking their positions and combining the results from the two 

> cameras to calculate three-dimensional positions. Back then we used Nato 

> This was then used to control a MSP patch generating sound: If the two 

> fishes were close to each others they would sing (female and male 

> voices), as they went further away you would instead hear bell-like sounds.

> Early this year I completed a three year research fellowship in the arts 

> at the Bergen National Academy of the Arts. As part of that I wrote a 

> thesis dosumenting and reflecting on aspects of my artistic practice. 

> From page 72 onwards I am discussing aspects of the sound synthesis 

> used or the Ekkofisk installation. There's also plenty of discussion on 

> work on sound in space etc. if anyone's interested. Due to the images, 

> it's a mighty download (40 Mb or so), and I haven't had the time to 

> compress it further, but it can be found here:

> If I should add up the most basic lesson learned from work on synthesis 

> for Ekkofisk, it would be: "Try adding some reverb".

Amazing. I love your work.....and I don't know how to say......well, you guys made it in 2000, and I made my fish in 2007.....I feel embarrassed.

All of your documentation and information are very useful to me. Here I don't know how to express my appreciations. I just want to say thank you thank you thank you so much.

About your last command about "try to add more reverb", may I ask you why?

Quote: Trond Lossius wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 16:08
----------------------------------------------------
> Hi,
>
> I did something similar back in 2000-2001 for the installation Ekkofisk 
> in collaboration with Reinert Mithassel. If you search the archive of 
> the MaxMSP list as well as the now more or less dead 55 list:
>
> https://www.bek.no/mailman/listinfo/55
>
> you should be able to find some mails with more info on the installation.
>
> In brief we had two web cams monitoring a big aquarium with two gold 
> fishes, tracking their positions and combining the results from the two 
> cameras to calculate three-dimensional positions. Back then we used Nato 
> for video tracking.
>
> This was then used to control a MSP patch generating sound: If the two 
> fishes were close to each others they would sing (female and male 
> voices), as they went further away you would instead hear bell-like sounds.
>
> More info here:
>
> http://creativetechnology.salford.ac.uk/fuchs/modules/input_output/NIC2001/nic_fisk.htm
> http://tinyurl.com/37u8ca
>
> http://creativetechnology.salford.ac.uk/fuchs/modules/input_output/NIC2001/nic_fisk3.htm
> http://tinyurl.com/3xd7tz
>
> And a bit of video documentation here:
>
> http://www.bek.no/fatamorgana/nyekko.html
>
> Early this year I completed a three year research fellowship in the arts 
> at the Bergen National Academy of the Arts. As part of that I wrote a 
> thesis dosumenting and reflecting on aspects of my artistic practice. 
>  From page 72 onwards I am discussing aspects of the sound synthesis 
> used or the Ekkofisk installation. There's also plenty of discussion on 
> work on sound in space etc. if anyone's interested. Due to the images, 
> it's a  mighty download (40 Mb or so), and I haven't had the time to 
> compress it further, but it can be found here:
>
> http://www.bek.no/~lossius/text
>
> If I should add up the most basic lesson learned from work on synthesis 
> for Ekkofisk, it would be: "Try adding some reverb".
>
> Best,
> Trond
>
>
>
> UCDMSRA wrote:
> > Quote: robin wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 10:40
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >> i know someone who did almost the exact same thing for a dissertation project at degree level. and it sounded boring. the only thing i would say, and i'm sure you're already aware of this, is make sure the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect. as john said, darwin grosse's patch is pretty amazing, and dead simple
> >>
> >> robin
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi Robin,
> >
> > That's why I asked a very stupid question on this forum around a month ago about "how to make my MIDI music makes more sense to me". I was pulling my hair try to figure out how to fix my music because my audio sound really ugly and nonsense to me at that time. Luckily many people answered my questions and gave me some good directions. In the same time I found Darwin Grosse's IDM-5 and that is quiet a good inspiration. 
> >
> > Nobody want to hear people said his project seems or sounds boring. Until now I still feel that I can and I need to do something else in the audio part. I will try to figure out what interesting things I can do in sound samples so I can combine the synthesizer with more objects. 
> >
> > You are right, the aesthetic is as developed as the technical aspect, this is the perfect word to describe what I feels right now.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > CK
> >
>
>
----------------------------------------------------

All of your documentation and information are very useful to me. Here I don't know how to express my appreciations. I just want to say thank you thank you thank you so much. 

About your last command about "try to add more reverb", may I ask you why? 

> If I should add up the most basic lesson learned from work on synthesis

is this perhaps taken from one of the 'Oblique Strategies' cards ?

> If I should add up the most basic lesson learned from work on synthesis
> for Ekkofisk, it would be: "Try adding some reverb".

I think John Cage generated music from gold fishes in the 50s, so 

there's nothing particular new about it. Couldn't find an url to more 

The sound synthesis wee used for creating the singing voice was based on 

description of voice synthesis in Dodge and Jerse. Roughly I started of 

by providing a harmonic signal with a 6 to 12 db roll per octave 

(depending on the fishes movements). Vibrato was applied, as was 1/f 

frequency drift and portamento moving from one note to the next. Next 

the signal was formant filtered to create vowels.

The result still sounded very dry, dull and synthetic and I wasn't to 

pleased with it the first time we did the installation. But when we sat 

it up, in a fairly reverberant room, it suddenly sounded a lot more 

lively, and I realized that what I had been doing was synthesizing a 

voice as heard in an anechoic chamber. Synthesized sounds generally need 

to be positioned in a space in order for them to come alive.

Good luck with your project and make sure to make some documentation 

> Amazing. I love your work.....and I don't know how to say......well, you guys made it in 2000, and I made my fish in 2007.....I feel embarrassed.

> All of your documentation and information are very useful to me. Here I don't know how to express my appreciations. I just want to say thank you thank you thank you so much. 

> About your last command about "try to add more reverb", may I ask you why? 

I think John Cage generated music from gold fishes in the 50s, so 
there's nothing particular new about it. Couldn't find an url to more 
info at the moment, though.

The sound synthesis wee used for creating the singing voice was based on 
description of voice synthesis in Dodge and Jerse. Roughly I started of 
by providing a harmonic signal with a 6 to 12 db roll per octave 
(depending on the fishes movements). Vibrato was applied, as was 1/f 
frequency drift and portamento moving from one note to the next. Next 
the signal was formant filtered to create vowels.

About my MS thesis project in Audio Engineering (but really nothing about audio engineering)