Carl Emil Carlsen

anti-keyframe-vj-application

I posted a message about this subject earlier but I received no 

response at all. Perhaps it helps to cut the crap and put it in a 

////////////////////////////////// Important notice start 

here //////////////////////////////////////////

http://www.moodplug.com/antikeyframe/download/documentation.

////////////////////////////////// Important notice ends 

I would really like some comments from people that work with VJ'ing 

or patch VJ applications. Do you recognise the problem I pose?

Vade posted a message April 1st about DBV on a thread about modular 

patches. DBV is a good example of the trend I describe: "eyes fixed 

on preview screens". No discredit for the DBV people, it is some 

really fine work you've done, but the concept resembles what Im use 

to seeing in commercial VJ software products based on a modular 

> however someone HAS released a very nice, simply user extendible 

http://dbv.gabocoy.com/archives/cat_download.php

As I have a background in playing music I find it natural to work 

towards the instrumentation of the VJ tool. Does this sound familiar?

I posted a message about this subject earlier but I received no  
response at all. Perhaps it helps to cut the crap and put it in a  
different way:

////////////////////////////////// Important notice start  
here //////////////////////////////////////////

Please check out this fancy PDF:
  http://www.moodplug.com/antikeyframe/download/documentation. pdf

////////////////////////////////// Important notice ends  
here //////////////////////////////////////////

I would really like some comments from people that work with VJ'ing  
or patch VJ applications. Do you recognise the problem I pose?

Vade posted a message April 1st about DBV on a thread about modular  
patches. DBV is a good example of the trend I describe: "eyes fixed  
on preview screens". No discredit for the DBV people, it is some  
really fine work you've done, but the concept resembles what Im use  
to seeing in commercial VJ software products based on a modular  
structure.

> however someone HAS released a very nice, simply user extendible  
> environment for video mixing : DBV)
> http://dbv.gabocoy.com/archives/cat_download.php

As I have a background in playing music I find it natural to work  
towards the instrumentation of the VJ tool. Does this sound familiar?

I agree with Greg, very few "VJ's" strictly use their computers anyways...

Almost every program that I've seen or used has had MIDI compatibility,

allowing the user to control with whatever instrument they please.

As I see it, the preview screens are usually not that helpful...

But on top of all this, we're dealing with VISUAL media...it doesnt really

make a lot of sense to take your eyes off of it.

PS: Carl Carlsen? Is that your real name? Why isnt there anyone on this

board named Homer Simpson...or C. Montgomery Burns?

Almost every program that I've seen or used has had MIDI compatibility,
allowing the user to control with whatever instrument they please.

But on top of all this, we're dealing with VISUAL media...it doesnt really
make a lot of sense to take your eyes off of it.

PS:  Carl Carlsen?  Is that your real name?  Why isnt there anyone on this
board named Homer Simpson...or C. Montgomery Burns?


> Vade posted a message April 1st about DBV on a thread about modular 

> patches. DBV is a good example of the trend I describe: "eyes fixed 

> on preview screens". No discredit for the DBV people, it is some 

> really fine work you've done, but the concept resembles what Im use 

> to seeing in commercial VJ software products based on a modular 

I have to agree 100% with Gregory here. He hit the nail on the head

I find once I spend enough time with a patch (especially the one I 

built), I 'get what I want when I press the shiny button' and can 

spend most of my time really listening to the music, and watching the 

dialog between what I am doing and what the musicians are doing 

(amusingly enough sometimes with my eyes closed and head bobbing), 

and not staring at the preview screen trying to get something to 

happen that should have happened 4 bars earlier, etc *.

(IMHO), This comes down to knowing your tools. Ive watched people use 

of the shelf software (modul8) for example, and do things with it 

that I havent seen done anywhere else. Last night had the pleasure to 

watch my friend Ilan play a set with Photoshop. Fucking incredible. 

He knows his tools so very well, and just made it dance and sing all 

while playing live. Im not sure what my point is here exactly, but a 

good craftsman doesnt blame his tools. Some craftsmen build their 

own, but it simply comes down to knowing your tools in and out, being 

able to anticipate, and generally having your shit together. 

Interestingly, I generally dont use a midi keyboard or alternative 

input device besides my mouse and keyboard. Im not sure what that 

says, but ive spent a lot of time honing my UI to do exactly what I 

want it to. The only reason I chose a modular framework for my patch 

(and why most others do as well) is that it makes it so much easier 

but, the bottom line is, you need to choose an approach that fits 

your style. Ive only glanced over that PDF, but it seems you have a 

system that works well for yourself. The bottom line is just taking 

the time to fully explore it, and get it to do tricks you didnt 

anticipate it being able to do. Thats when it gets fun.

*(Gregory, this means I get the dancing strobing torus exactly how I 

>
> Vade posted a message April 1st about DBV on a thread about modular  
> patches. DBV is a good example of the trend I describe: "eyes fixed  
> on preview screens". No discredit for the DBV people, it is some  
> really fine work you've done, but the concept resembles what Im use  
> to seeing in commercial VJ software products based on a modular  
> structure.
>

I find once I spend enough time with a patch (especially the one I  
built), I 'get what I want when I press the shiny button' and can  
spend most of my time really listening to the music, and watching the  
dialog between what I am doing and what the musicians are doing  
(amusingly enough sometimes with my eyes closed and head bobbing),  
and not staring at the preview screen trying to get something to  
happen that should have happened 4 bars earlier, etc *.

(IMHO), This comes down to knowing your tools. Ive watched people use  
of the shelf software (modul8) for example, and do things with it  
that I havent seen done anywhere else. Last night had the pleasure to  
watch my friend Ilan play a set with Photoshop. Fucking incredible.  
He knows his tools so very well, and just made it dance and sing all  
while playing live. Im not sure what my point is here exactly, but a  
good craftsman doesnt blame his tools. Some craftsmen build their  
own, but it simply comes down to knowing your tools in and out, being  
able to anticipate, and generally having your shit together.  
Interestingly, I generally dont use a midi keyboard or alternative  
input device besides my mouse and keyboard. Im not sure what that  
says, but ive spent a lot of time honing my UI to do exactly what I  
want it to. The only reason I chose a modular framework for my patch  
(and why most others do as well) is that it makes it so much easier  
to extend the full application.

but, the bottom line is, you need to choose an approach that fits  
your style. Ive only glanced over that PDF, but it seems you have a  
system that works well for yourself. The bottom line is just taking  
the time to fully explore it, and get it to do tricks you didnt  
anticipate it being able to do. Thats when it gets fun.

*(Gregory, this means I get the dancing strobing torus exactly how I  
want it :)

> *(Gregory, this means I get the dancing strobing torus exactly how 

Non problemo est. I'll just be in the other room watching that guy

> *(Gregory, this means I get the dancing strobing torus exactly how  
> I want it :)

Non problemo est. I'll just be in the other room watching that guy
do the Photoshop set....


I'd have to say that my main "point of contention" would be that the patch allows little room for concentrated narrative advancement. While the artist may free themself to listen and respond more physically to the music, they're sacrificing the ability to respond to it in an intellectual manner. Navigating a sea of ideas with this program seems nearly impossible. Putting clip selection on very generalized autopilot is not a good way to tell a story. This is all couched in my personal taste, which leans toward the figural and away from the hyperkinetic.

That said, I like the idea of "duking it out" with a controller as a very physical form of interaction with the music. Obviously this approach is going to be way more effective at a show with quick beats and changes then at an ambient dronefest. 

My personal approach has been to automate the hell out of audioresponsive elements, allowing me to put those layers on autopilot and focus more on the selection of ideas. I actually see your concepts working more effectively in an A/V band environment. Select the song and then focus on the performance. Combine performers, and you've got a show. 

As to the "eyes fixed on preview screens." I don't see how that precludes listening. I'm pretty much funneling information from the sound environment, and translating it through a complex interface into video. DJs cue with headphones, VJs cue with previews. Now, if your complaint was that VJs tend to get focused on their computer instead of the people/physical environment around them, that seems more valid then implying that they aren't listening because they're looking. 

As far as physical interfaces go, I'm usually selecting ideas with a laptop touchpad, but physically performing more with a midi controller and video mixer. A game controller is compact, but is sort of reliant on being held in both hands. I setup a PS2 controller once with visualjockey, but found it a bit like trying to drive a stick shift and eat a crumbly taco.

I have a friend that helped out with the XBox music mixer program that included a video toy. It worked in a similar manner with the machine going fullscreen, and all the effects and clip selection done without navigation. The limiting factor there was the ability to seek out specific clips, and the small number of effects/lack of ability to combine effects for different feels.

I'd add audio analysis so you don't have to tap in the beat, and maybe some sort of ability link/automate some of the effects to the beat. 

If you want to get really fancy, you could try and make a tool that analizes a large video clip for perceived qualities that fit the different categories of clips, then chops the clip into subclips and organizes them in that way. Kind of the scrambled hackz methodology, but applied to clip organization.

I'd have to say that my main "point of contention" would be that the patch allows little room for concentrated narrative advancement.  While the artist may free themself to listen and respond more physically to the music, they're sacrificing the ability to respond to it in an intellectual manner.  Navigating a sea of ideas with this program seems nearly impossible.  Putting clip selection on very generalized autopilot is not a good way to tell a story.  This is all couched in my personal taste, which leans toward the figural and away from the hyperkinetic.
That said, I like the idea of "duking it out" with a controller as a very physical form of interaction with the music.  Obviously this approach is going to be way more effective at a show with quick beats and changes then at an ambient dronefest.  
My personal approach has been to automate the hell out of audioresponsive elements, allowing me to put those layers on autopilot and focus more on the selection of ideas.  I actually see your concepts working more effectively in an A/V band environment. Select the song and then focus on the performance. Combine performers, and you've got a show. 
As to the "eyes fixed on preview screens."  I don't see how that precludes listening.  I'm pretty much funneling information from the sound environment, and translating it through a complex interface into video.  DJs cue with headphones, VJs cue with previews.  Now, if your complaint was that VJs tend to get focused on their computer instead of the people/physical environment around them, that seems more valid then implying that they aren't listening because they're looking. 
As far as physical interfaces go, I'm usually selecting ideas with a laptop touchpad, but physically performing more with a midi controller and video mixer.  A game controller is compact, but is sort of reliant on being held in both hands.  I setup a PS2 controller once with visualjockey, but found it a bit like trying to drive a stick shift and eat a crumbly taco.
I have a friend that helped out with the XBox music mixer program that included a video toy.  It worked in a similar manner with the machine going fullscreen, and all the effects and clip selection done without navigation.  The limiting factor there was the ability to seek out specific clips, and the small number of effects/lack of ability to combine effects for different feels.
Ideas for improvement.
I'd add audio analysis so you don't have to tap in the beat, and maybe some sort of ability link/automate some of the effects to the beat. 
If you want to get really fancy, you could try and make a tool that analizes a large video clip for perceived qualities that fit the different categories of clips, then chops the clip into subclips and organizes them in that way.  Kind of the scrambled hackz methodology, but applied to clip organization.


could you explain how he did a photoshop set?

Joe: fullscreen, wacom tablet. airbrush tool. no photos. mad. 

Joe: fullscreen, wacom tablet. airbrush tool. no photos. mad.  
fucking. skills.  http://ilankatin.com/

Gregory says, and the rest seems to agree:

> I'm not sure I'd be in such a hurry to present your particular 

> solution as any kind of binary opposition to current practice.

I may have presented the problem as black and white, and of-cause in 

practise it's a combination. However, "my personal experience" is 

limited to what I've seen and I don't yet have a full survey, not 

even in Denmark where VJ'ing is still somehow an exotic phenomena, 

all due to my "mileage" as Gregory beautifully pinpoints. This is 

But it sure did trigger a clear opinion with many useful side-stories 

Joe says about the applications (as Gregory puts it) I am "dissing":

> Almost every program that I've seen or used has had MIDI 

> compatibility, allowing the user to control with whatever 

> [...] comes down to knowing your tools.

First of all I'm not dissing any particular application. Yes, I am 

aware of the MIDI compatibility features and the once that resemble 

the function of the HI-object in Max. I've tested the newest Modul8 

for instance, and I was very happy with the control assignment 

feature. I just haven't seen it in use, and just moving the 

interaction the a physical interface still doesn't answer the problem 

of selecting video live, eyes of the preview screen.

Leo says about the Anti-Keyframe application:

> While the artist may free themself to listen and respond more 

> physically to the music, they're sacrificing the ability to respond 

> to it in an intellectual manner. Navigating a sea of ideas with 

> this program seems nearly impossible. Putting clip selection on 

> very generalized autopilot is not a good way to tell a story.

True, that is the payoff for my solution. The storytelling is mostly 

done in the process of producing the clips. I know its a rude way of 

selecting clips, which is best suited for rude music (highly dynamic 

> DJs cue with headphones, VJs cue with previews. Now, if your 

> complaint was that VJs tend to get focused on their computer 

> instead of the people/physical environment around them, that seems 

> more valid then implying that they aren't listening because they're 

I believe this is the spot: The performance situation together with a 

live band, electronic or acoustic, not a DJ. The application gives 

you the opportunity of being a closer member of the band. When 

improvising in in a band, eye-contact and awareness of your 

surroundings is important. Also, regarding the performance situation, 

the worst case scenario would be an audio-visual laptop concert where 

the audience feel like they are watching an abstract TV show (I think 

I stop the "dissing" here). Thank you for describing what I couldn't.

> My personal approach has been to automate the hell out of 

> audioresponsive elements, allowing me to put those layers on 

> autopilot and focus more on the selection of ideas [...] with a 

> laptop touchpad, but physically performing more with a midi 

I really like this approach you pose. The fast audio-responsive 

visual "sugar-coating" effects are more suited for computers rather 

than story telling. The Anti-Keyframe approach is to have a four-way 

fader where each of the single faders control the level of effect 

automisation in a specific style and combination. It is not 

customisable, but that's only because Im a design student and not a 

programmer/developer. Further development of Anti-Keyframe will 

probably be directed towards my own usage.

... and Leo continues with ideas for improvement:

> I'd add audio analysis so you don't have to tap in the beat

I have been struggling with Bonk, fiddle and home-made stuff for this 

purpose, but I never got it right. How do you, for instance, know if 

it is the first or the last bar? I would really like to see an 

example of stable and CPU-friendly beat tracking.

> you could try [...] Kind of the scrambled hackz methodology, but 

Yes, this could be fun (and time-consuming) to experiment with. Maybe 

I will look into something like that. Thanks for the reference, fun.

//////////////////////////////////// gossip starts 

here ////////////////////////////////////////////

> PS: Carl Carlsen? Is that your real name? Why isnt there anyone 

> on this board named Homer Simpson...or C. Montgomery Burns?

Hmm, can't help it. I actually have a cousin named (oh my God here it 

comes...) Carla Carlsen =) What a cruel world, blame the parents. 

//////////////////////////////////// gossip ends 

Greg, Vade and Joe. What is your approach on selecting video-clips 

Gregory says, and the rest seems to agree:
> I'm not sure I'd be in such a hurry to present your particular  
> solution as any kind of binary opposition to current practice.

I may have presented the problem as black and white, and of-cause in  
practise it's a combination. However, "my personal experience" is  
limited to what I've seen and I don't yet have a full survey, not  
even in Denmark where VJ'ing is still somehow an exotic phenomena,  
all due to my "mileage" as Gregory beautifully pinpoints. This is  
also why I posted this thread.

But it sure did trigger a clear opinion with many useful side-stories  
=) Thanks to all of you for that.

Joe says about the applications (as Gregory puts it) I am "dissing":
> Almost every program that I've seen or used has had MIDI  
> compatibility, allowing the user to control with whatever  
> instrument they please.
Vade sums up:
> [...] comes down to knowing your tools.
First of all I'm not dissing any particular application. Yes, I am  
aware of the MIDI compatibility features and the once that resemble  
the function of the HI-object in Max. I've tested the newest Modul8  
for instance, and I was very happy with the control assignment  
feature. I just haven't seen it in use, and just moving the  
interaction the a physical interface still doesn't answer the problem  
of selecting video live, eyes of the preview screen.

Leo says about the Anti-Keyframe application:
> While the artist may free themself to listen and respond more  
> physically to the music, they're sacrificing the ability to respond  
> to it in an intellectual manner.  Navigating a sea of ideas with  
> this program seems nearly impossible.  Putting clip selection on  
> very generalized autopilot is not a good way to tell a story.
True, that is the payoff for my solution. The storytelling is mostly  
done in the process of producing the clips. I know its a rude way of  
selecting clips, which is best suited for rude music (highly dynamic  
IDM stuff). True, true.

Leo continues:
> DJs cue with headphones, VJs cue with previews.  Now, if your  
> complaint was that VJs tend to get focused on their computer  
> instead of the people/physical environment around them, that seems  
> more valid then implying that they aren't listening because they're  
> looking.
I believe this is the spot: The performance situation together with a  
live band, electronic or acoustic, not a DJ. The application gives  
you the opportunity of being a closer member of the band. When  
improvising in in a band, eye-contact and awareness of your  
surroundings is important. Also, regarding the performance situation,  
the worst case scenario would be an audio-visual laptop concert where  
the audience feel like they are watching an abstract TV show (I think  
I stop the "dissing" here). Thank you for describing what I couldn't.

... and Leo continues:
> My personal approach has been to automate the hell out of  
> audioresponsive elements, allowing me to put those layers on  
> autopilot and focus more on the selection of ideas [...] with a  
> laptop touchpad, but physically performing more with a midi  
> controller and video mixer.
I really like this approach you pose. The fast audio-responsive  
visual "sugar-coating" effects are more suited for computers rather  
than story telling. The Anti-Keyframe approach is to have a four-way  
fader where each of the single faders control the level of effect  
automisation in a specific style and combination. It is not  
customisable, but that's only because Im a design student and not a  
programmer/developer. Further development of Anti-Keyframe will  
probably be directed towards my own usage.

... and Leo continues with ideas for improvement:
> I'd add audio analysis so you don't have to tap in the beat
I have been struggling with Bonk, fiddle and home-made stuff for this  
purpose, but I never got it right. How do you, for instance, know if  
it is the first or the last bar? I would really like to see an  
example of stable and CPU-friendly beat tracking.
> you could try [...]  Kind of the scrambled hackz methodology, but  
> applied to clip organization.
Yes, this could be fun (and time-consuming) to experiment with. Maybe  
I will look into something like that. Thanks for the reference, fun.

//////////////////////////////////// gossip starts  
here ////////////////////////////////////////////

Joe also says:
> PS:  Carl Carlsen?  Is that your real name?  Why isnt there anyone  
> on this board named Homer Simpson...or C. Montgomery Burns?
Hmm, can't help it. I actually have a cousin named (oh my God here it  
comes...) Carla Carlsen =) What a cruel world, blame the parents.  
Anyway, Im happy about my name ;-)

//////////////////////////////////// gossip ends  
here ////////////////////////////////////////////

Greg, Vade and Joe. What is your approach on selecting video-clips  
live, storytelling vs. expression?

On Apr 10, 2006, at 5:25 AM, Carl Emil Carlsen wrote:

> Greg, Vade and Joe. What is your approach on selecting video-clips 

> Greg, Vade and Joe. What is your approach on selecting video-clips  
> live, storytelling vs. expression?

storytelling is such a ridiculous self-imposed box.

insisting that visual work incorporate storytelling is like insisting 

that melody or harmony always be present in music.

insisting that visual work incorporate storytelling is like insisting  
that melody or harmony always be present in music.


Ha! =D Didn't see it in that perspective. Sorry.... I'll try again:

What is your approach on the problem of selecting video-clips live?

What do you choose to focus on in a performance situation and why?

What is your approach on the problem of selecting video-clips live?
What do you choose to focus on in a performance situation and why?

On Apr 10, 2006, at 10:02 AM, Carl Emil Carlsen wrote:

> Ha! =D Didn't see it in that perspective. Sorry.... I'll try again:

> What is your approach on the problem of selecting video-clips live?

> What do you choose to focus on in a performance situation and why?

what is the art/performance/installation/whatever that you are going 

for? when coding in max, i always have some final outcome, some pice 

in mind, and write the patch around the specific piece.

-if you have a work in development that requires selecting clips, 

-are you responding to music? are you using the video to conduct an 

-are you interested in public displays of epilepsy?

-if you are a storyteller, is the projector your "voice"?

-what do you want others to perceive and experience?

>>
>> What's all this "vs." stuff, then?
> Ha! =D Didn't see it in that perspective. Sorry.... I'll try again:
> What is your approach on the problem of selecting video-clips live?
> What do you choose to focus on in a performance situation and why?

what is the art/performance/installation/whatever that you are going  
for? when coding in max, i always have some final outcome, some pice  
in mind, and write the patch around the specific piece.

-if you have a work in development that requires selecting clips,  
then what is that work?
-why do you need to select clips?
-are you responding to music? are you using the video to conduct an  
orchestra of DJs?
-are you interested in public displays of epilepsy?
-if you are a storyteller, is the projector your "voice"?
-is it a narrator?
-a character?
-what is it that you are trying to say?
-what do you want others to perceive and experience?
-what do you want them to be aware of?
-what do you want them to not notice?
-why?
-............?

>> What is your approach on the problem of selecting video-clips live?

Anti-Keyframe VJ Application