Hans Mittendorf

today I want to officially forward a request to build an audio unit object for Max5 with all the nitty gritty to go along with it.

It really seems that companies have shifted priorities to audio unit, even though it does not make a lot of sense.

au-object

What's wrong with the au~ object? Works just fine

for me. And while you're taking a look at it, 

Michael Norris' spectral plug-ins load fine in 

What's wrong with the au~ object? Works just fine
for me. And while you're taking a look at it, 
Michael Norris' spectral plug-ins load fine in 
his au~ object and sound wonderful.


On 14 juil. 08, at 19:12, Hans Mittendorf wrote:

> today I want to officially forward a request to build an audio unit 

> object for Max5 with all the nitty gritty to go along with it.

> It really seems that companies have shifted priorities to audio 

> unit, even though it does not make a lot of sense.

There's already a au~ object by Michael Norris:

http://www.michaelnorris.info/software.html

> Hello cycling and all other folks,
>
> today I want to officially forward a request to build an audio unit  
> object for Max5 with all the nitty gritty to go along with it.
>
> It really seems that companies have shifted priorities to audio  
> unit, even though it does not make a lot of sense.

>>today I want to officially forward a request to build an audio unit 

>>object for Max5 with all the nitty gritty to go along with it.

>>It really seems that companies have shifted priorities to audio 

>>unit, even though it does not make a lot of sense.

>There's already a au~ object by Michael Norris:

Last I checked it only loaded AU effects, and not AU instruments - 

202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X / Major 

>>Hello cycling and all other folks,
>>
>>today I want to officially forward a request to build an audio unit 
>>object for Max5 with all the nitty gritty to go along with it.
>>
>>It really seems that companies have shifted priorities to audio 
>>unit, even though it does not make a lot of sense.
>
>
>There's already a au~ object by Michael Norris:
>
>http://www.michaelnorris.info/software.html
>
>Best,
>ej

Last I checked it only loaded AU effects, and not AU instruments - 
has that changed?

Best,
Dan
-- 
Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X / Major 
Malfunction
http://www.defectiverecords.com
http://www.jackosx.com


When you download the au object from Michael's website, it does not say that it is compatiblre with Max5. Also the help file has the extension .help instead of maxhelp like all the others under 5.

Also, regarding vst there is the vst3 coming soon. The developer kit is out. I do not know how important that is for others but I really work a lot with the combination between Max and plug-in tech

Also, regarding vst there is the vst3 coming soon.  The developer kit is out. I do not know how important that is for others but I really work a lot with the combination between Max and plug-in tech


Quote: Gregory Taylor wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 11:21

----------------------------------------------------

> What's wrong with the au~ object? Works just fine

> for me. And while you're taking a look at it, 

> Michael Norris' spectral plug-ins load fine in 

The au~ object crashes Max/MSP 5 as soon as I try to open the loaded AU for editing.

Quote: Gregory Taylor wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 11:21
----------------------------------------------------
> What's wrong with the au~ object? Works just fine
> for me. And while you're taking a look at it, 
> Michael Norris' spectral plug-ins load fine in 
> his au~ object and sound wonderful.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------

The au~ object crashes Max/MSP 5 as soon as I try to open the loaded AU for editing.


The absence of a au~ object in the main distribution and supported by

cycling74 has been the disappointment I had with Max 5.

The absence of a au~ object in the main distribution and supported by
cycling74 has been the disappointment I had with Max 5.
J-F.


By and large we attempt to spend time on coding things for MaxMSP which are cross platform, these efforts will benefit a greater proportion of our users. There are lots of things we would like to create to improve Max 5, but as far as I know an au~ object is not one of them.

I can appreciate the cross platform argument on one level, but if one of the platforms in question experience a pretty significant shift from one plug-in format to another, I don't quite see how Cycling '74 can invoke cross platform compatibility as the main argument.

AU plug-ins are fast becoming the de facto standard on OS X, and I think Max/MSP ought to reflect this.

Hopefully the au~ plug-in will be fixed when the SDK is released, but it seems it hasn't been worked on in a while - so perhaps nothing comes of it.

As much as I could get from my investigation, it seems that Apples purchase of Logic rivaled Steinberg's vst domination and since Steinberg became Yamaha, third party developers feel that AU is the commercially stronger format.

I think one can not close ones eyes to major shifts in this field.

I think one can not close ones eyes to major shifts in this field.
This is not my imagination, it is real.


> By and large we attempt to spend time on coding things for MaxMSP which are

> cross platform, these efforts will benefit a greater proportion of our

> users. There are lots of things we would like to create to improve Max 5,

> but as far as I know an au~ object is not one of them.

>
>
>
> By and large we attempt to spend time on coding things for MaxMSP which are
> cross platform, these efforts will benefit a greater proportion of our
> users. There are lots of things we would like to create to improve Max 5,
> but as far as I know an au~ object is not one of them.
>
> -A
>

Quote: Andrew Pask wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 00:41

>... There are lots of things we would like to create to improve Max 5, but as far as I know an au~ object is not one of them.

2) More and more requests to control Logic and MainStage for live performances.

3) The Logic Environment is not up to date, creative audio processing is not possible in MainStage - musicians with a creative approach start to combine Logic and MainStage with Numerology, Bidule, Max.

4) There is no MIDI plugin in Logic apart from a few special applications.

5) There is no way in Logic to trigger MIDI or effects based on audio playback or live sound.

6) MainStage has virtually no MIDI processing and it has no MIDI output.

7) There is no good arpeggiator or chord memorizer in Logic, Max as an AU plugin could do that.

Please rethink the priorities, maybe there is something less important than support for artists with a Mac.

Quote: Andrew Pask wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 00:41
----------------------------------------------------
>... There are lots of things we would like to create to improve Max 5, but as far as I know an au~ object is not one of them.
----------------------------------------------------

1) Increasing Logic users community.
2) More and more requests to control Logic and MainStage for live performances.
3) The Logic Environment is not up to date, creative audio processing is not possible in MainStage - musicians with a creative approach start to combine Logic and MainStage with Numerology, Bidule, Max.
4) There is no MIDI plugin in Logic apart from a few special applications.
5) There is no way in Logic to trigger MIDI or effects based on audio playback or live sound.
6) MainStage has virtually no MIDI processing and it has no MIDI output.
7) There is no good arpeggiator or chord memorizer in Logic, Max as an AU plugin could do that.
8) ...
9) ...
...

Please rethink the priorities, maybe there is something less important than support for artists with a Mac.
Thank you.


> As much as I could get from my investigation, it seems that Apples

> purchase of Logic rivaled Steinberg's vst domination and since

> Steinberg became Yamaha, third party developers feel that AU is the

> I think one can not close ones eyes to major shifts in this field. 

> This is not my imagination, it is real.

But on PC's AU doesn't even exist, though PC's are real...

I'd wonder if the AU specs are as open as the VST specs, and if they 

could translate to Windows. But I think the main reason for the 

existance of a bunch of good AU plugs is the developement tools which 

make creating AU's way easier than creating VST's. And those are not 

available for Windows (for an obvious reason...)

Commercially a VST will cover more possible customers than AU. But if 

the developing costs are significantly lower, you might just stick with 

All Linux freaks claim the only valid plug-in format is LADSPA, which is 

probably correct, but doesn't mean anything practically...;-)

I want a LDSPA~ object!!! And Pluggo should support LDSPA as well...

Hans Mittendorf schrieb:
> As much as I could get from my investigation, it seems that Apples
> purchase of Logic rivaled Steinberg's vst domination and since
> Steinberg became Yamaha, third party developers feel that AU is the
> commercially stronger format.
>
> I think one can not close ones eyes to major shifts in this field. 
> This is not my imagination, it is real. 

But on PC's AU doesn't even exist, though PC's are real...
I'd wonder if the AU specs are as open as the VST specs, and if they 
could translate to Windows. But I think the main reason for the 
existance of a bunch of good AU plugs is the developement tools which 
make creating AU's way easier than creating VST's. And those are not 
available for Windows (for an obvious reason...)
Commercially a VST will cover more possible customers than AU. But if 
the developing costs are significantly lower, you might just stick with 
only the Apple musicians....

All Linux freaks claim the only valid plug-in format is LADSPA, which is 
probably correct, but doesn't mean anything practically...;-)

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


> 2) More and more requests to control Logic and MainStage for live performances.

> 3) The Logic Environment is not up to date, creative audio processing is not possible in MainStage - 

> musicians with a creative approach start to combine Logic and MainStage with Numerology, Bidule, Max.

> 4) There is no MIDI plugin in Logic apart from a few special applications.

> 5) There is no way in Logic to trigger MIDI or effects based on audio playback or live sound.

> 6) MainStage has virtually no MIDI processing and it has no MIDI output.

> 7) There is no good arpeggiator or chord memorizer in Logic, Max as an AU plugin could do that.

That list makes me think that logic is maybe not the best tool?... ;-)

But seriously, the main reason why people use logic, is the bunch of 

high level plugs its coming with. But thopse don't work in other 

And if you look at your point 3, it's likely you combine them already. 

with Soundflower/Rewire or, maybe even simpler, with hardware cables...

I'd rather put pressure on Apple to release their plugs into the wild, 

And you can run patches as plug-ins in Logic, though you still need to 

Peter Ostry schrieb:
> Really not?
>
> 1) Increasing Logic users community.
> 2) More and more requests to control Logic and MainStage for live performances.
> 3) The Logic Environment is not up to date, creative audio processing is not possible in MainStage - 
>    musicians with a creative approach start to combine Logic and MainStage with Numerology, Bidule, Max.
> 4) There is no MIDI plugin in Logic apart from a few special applications.
> 5) There is no way in Logic to trigger MIDI or effects based on audio playback or live sound.
> 6) MainStage has virtually no MIDI processing and it has no MIDI output.
> 7) There is no good arpeggiator or chord memorizer in Logic, Max as an AU plugin could do that.
> 8) ...
> 9) ...
> ...

That list makes me think that logic is maybe not the best tool?... ;-)
But seriously, the main reason why people use logic, is the bunch of 
high level plugs its coming with. But thopse don't work in other 
hosts... (bad karma for Apple...)
And if you look at your point 3, it's likely you combine them already. 
with Soundflower/Rewire or, maybe even simpler, with hardware cables...

I'd rather put pressure on Apple to release their plugs into the wild, 
that would simplify things much more...

And you can run patches as plug-ins in Logic, though you still need to 
use Max 4.6 to create them...

well, wrong is that it loads but crashes in max5. also in max4 its state 

is very experimental - i wouldnt use it in anything critical. i know 

that michael is working on an update but he is obviously very busy with 

> knowledge is not enough/science is not enough/Love is dreaming this equation

well, wrong is that it loads but crashes in max5. also in max4 its state 
is very experimental - i wouldnt use it in anything critical. i know 
that michael is working on an update but he is obviously very busy with 
other things as well.

Gregory Taylor wrote:
> What's wrong with the au~ object? Works just fine
> for me. And while you're taking a look at it, 
> Michael Norris' spectral plug-ins load fine in 
> his au~ object and sound wonderful.
>
>
> --
> knowledge is not enough/science is not enough/Love is dreaming this equation
>
>
>

-- 
http://pure.test.at
http://www.heartchamberorchestra.org


> By and large we attempt to spend time on coding things for MaxMSP which are cross platform, these efforts will benefit a greater proportion of our users. There are lots of things we would like to create to improve Max 5, but as far as I know an au~ object is not one of them.

but there are several things in the official distribution which are 

platform specific like jit.dx.grab of which osx users dont benefit...

its really a pity that the (unfortunately) main plugin standard of osx 

if you would make a poll under osx users i am sure an au~ object would 

be one of the most wanted objects (besides what now can be bought extra 

as elastic~, and general higher mp3 friendlyness of buffer/sfplay) . and 

although maxmspjit can be used for so many different tasks 90% of all 

existing patchers are built around buffer/groove/vst.

furthermore an au~ would perfectly fit into the current 

"hellokittyfication" of max5 - c´mon dont tell me this isnt a killer 

Andrew Pask wrote:
> By and large we attempt to spend time on coding things for MaxMSP which are cross platform, these efforts will benefit a greater proportion of our users. There are lots of things we would like to create to improve Max 5, but as far as I know an au~ object is not one of them.
>
> -A
>
but there are several things in the official distribution which are 
platform specific like jit.dx.grab of which osx users dont benefit...

its really a pity that the (unfortunately) main plugin standard of osx 
is getting ignored.

if you would make a poll under osx users i am sure an au~ object would 
be one of the most wanted objects (besides what now can be bought extra 
as elastic~, and general higher mp3 friendlyness of buffer/sfplay) . and 
although maxmspjit can be used for so many different tasks 90% of all 
existing patchers are built around buffer/groove/vst.

furthermore an au~ would perfectly fit into the current 
"hellokittyfication" of max5 - c´mon dont tell me this isnt a killer 
pro-argument ;)

Maybe you got things backwards. Apple doesn't expose any of it's plug-ins for use inside other hosts like Max, which is what the au~ object would be for.

So you must be talking about running Max patches inside Logic? The important thing is that Max 5 compatible Pluggo supports running as AU plug-ins inside Logic. I assume this is going to happen because the Max 4 version supported it. If not, well that would be a big step backwards and upset a lot of people, but I don't think C74 is going to do that to us...? That's not what Andrew was talking about when he said they won't support an au~ object inside of Max.

Quote: Peter Ostry wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 03:17

> 3) The Logic Environment is not up to date, creative audio processing is not possible in MainStage - musicians with a creative approach start to combine Logic and MainStage with Numerology, Bidule, Max.

> Please rethink the priorities, maybe there is something less important than support for artists with a Mac.

Peter,
Maybe you got things backwards. Apple doesn't expose any of it's plug-ins for use inside other hosts like Max, which is what the au~ object would be for.

Quote: Peter Ostry wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 03:17
----------------------------------------------------
> Really not?
>
> 1) Increasing Logic users community.
> 2) More and more requests to control Logic and MainStage for live performances.
> 3) The Logic Environment is not up to date, creative audio processing is not possible in MainStage - musicians with a creative approach start to combine Logic and MainStage with Numerology, Bidule, Max.
> 4) There is no MIDI plugin in Logic apart from a few special applications.
> 5) There is no way in Logic to trigger MIDI or effects based on audio playback or live sound.
> 6) MainStage has virtually no MIDI processing and it has no MIDI output.
> 7) There is no good arpeggiator or chord memorizer in Logic, Max as an AU plugin could do that.
> 8) ...
> 9) ...
> ...
>
> Please rethink the priorities, maybe there is something less important than support for artists with a Mac.
> Thank you.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------


Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:03

> I'd rather put pressure on Apple to release their plugs into the wild, 

> that would simplify things much more...

Uhm ... Considering the things Steve Jobs et al are doing with the iPhone, I wouldn't trust Apple to release much of anything resembling "openness" these days.

They are becoming increasingly monopolistic, which makes me think it's easier for Cycling '74 to adapt to Apple, rather than the other way around. The size of Apple alone ... well, you know what I mean. ;)

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:03
----------------------------------------------------
> I'd rather put pressure on Apple to release their plugs into the wild, 
> that would simplify things much more...
>

They are becoming increasingly monopolistic, which makes me think it's easier for Cycling '74 to adapt to Apple, rather than the other way around. The size of Apple alone ... well, you know what I mean. ;)


Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:01

> But on PC's AU doesn't even exist, though PC's are real...

Out of curiosity: What is the user base for Max/MSP like on the PC? Aren't there a lot more Max/MSP users on the Mac? Or is that just my impression?

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:01
----------------------------------------------------
> But on PC's AU doesn't even exist, though PC's are real...

Out of curiosity: What is the user base for Max/MSP like on the PC? Aren't there a lot more Max/MSP users on the Mac? Or is that just my impression?


Quote: oivindi wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:11

> Out of curiosity: What is the user base for Max/MSP like on the PC? Aren't there a lot more Max/MSP users on the Mac? Or is that just my impression?

Only Cycling '74 can say for sure, but I think many of the old-timers are on the Mac, so it may be somewhat over-represented here.

Quote: oivindi wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:11
----------------------------------------------------
> Out of curiosity: What is the user base for Max/MSP like on the PC? Aren't there a lot more Max/MSP users on the Mac? Or is that just my impression?
>
----------------------------------------------------

> Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:01

> ----------------------------------------------------

>> But on PC's AU doesn't even exist, though PC's are real...

wrote:
> Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:01
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>> But on PC's AU doesn't even exist, though PC's are real...
>>
>
> Out of curiosity: What is the user base for Max/MSP like on the PC? Aren't there a lot more Max/MSP users on the Mac? Or is that just my impression?
>
>
>
>
oh yeah i´m curious about this as well!

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 05:01

> existance of a bunch of good AU plugs is the developement 

> tools which make creating AU's way easier than creating VST's.

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 05:01
----------------------------------------------------
> But I think the main reason for the 
> existance of a bunch of good AU plugs is the developement 
> tools which make creating AU's way easier than creating VST's.

> By and large we attempt to spend time on coding things for MaxMSP

> which are cross platform, these efforts will benefit a greater

> proportion of our users. There are lots of things we would like

> to create to improve Max 5, but as far as I know an au~ object

Too bad. I won't pay for Max5, finally :-(

Quote: Andrew Pask wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 00:41
----------------------------------------------------
> By and large we attempt to spend time on coding things for MaxMSP
> which are cross platform, these efforts will benefit a greater
> proportion of our users. There are lots of things we would like
> to create to improve Max 5, but as far as I know an au~ object
> is not one of them.
----------------------------------------------------

Too bad. I won't pay for Max5, finally :-(


As always, when there's something complicated to be considered, I like 

What would be your goals in having an au~ object?

My main use for such a thing would be to use the cool plugins that are 

bundled with Logic, but Apple precludes that by hiding them as part of 

the Logic app, and they're not available for other applications.

On Jul 15, 2008, at 3:17 AM, Peter Ostry wrote:

> 2) More and more requests to control Logic and MainStage for live 

> 3) The Logic Environment is not up to date, creative audio 

> processing is not possible in MainStage - musicians with a creative 

> approach start to combine Logic and MainStage with Numerology, 

Max 4 can make audio processing plugins, and eventually Max 5 will be 

> 4) There is no MIDI plugin in Logic apart from a few special 

Logic has no architecture for MIDI plugins. There's nothing Cycling 

'74 could do to change this, even if they wanted to.

> 5) There is no way in Logic to trigger MIDI or effects based on 

Once again, this is out of Cycling '74's control.

> 6) MainStage has virtually no MIDI processing and it has no MIDI 

> 7) There is no good arpeggiator or chord memorizer in Logic, Max as 

The only way this would work is if the arpeggiator/chord memorizer 

also contained a synth. At the risk of repeating myself, Logic has no 

As always, when there's something complicated to be considered, I like  
to see goals articulated.

My main use for such a thing would be to use the cool plugins that are  
bundled with Logic, but Apple precludes that by hiding them as part of  
the Logic app, and they're not available for other applications.

> 2) More and more requests to control Logic and MainStage for live  
> performances.

> 3) The Logic Environment is not up to date, creative audio  
> processing is not possible in MainStage - musicians with a creative  
> approach start to combine Logic and MainStage with Numerology,  
> Bidule, Max.

Max 4 can make audio processing plugins, and eventually Max 5 will be  
able to make them too.

> 4) There is no MIDI plugin in Logic apart from a few special  
> applications.

Logic has no architecture for MIDI plugins. There's nothing Cycling  
'74 could do to change this, even if they wanted to.

> 5) There is no way in Logic to trigger MIDI or effects based on  
> audio playback or live sound.

> 6) MainStage has virtually no MIDI processing and it has no MIDI  
> output.

> 7) There is no good arpeggiator or chord memorizer in Logic, Max as  
> an AU plugin could do that.

The only way this would work is if the arpeggiator/chord memorizer  
also contained a synth. At the risk of repeating myself, Logic has no  
MIDI plugin architecture.

Chris Muir
cbm@well.com	
http://www.xfade.com

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that AU development is hard. 

Probably at least as hard as VST development.

I think the biggest dealbreakers are Logic, auval and AULab.

On Jul 15, 2008, at 4:13 PM, John Pitcairn wrote:

> Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 05:01

>> existance of a bunch of good AU plugs is the developement

AU object