Gary Lee Nelson

I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound

compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In

looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the "movie" is

a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the

-I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).

-Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.

-Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.

-Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter

-In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter

-Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.

-Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.

Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info

tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The "movie" must really

be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18

hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be true?

If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care package

that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but

the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that

I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound
compositions.  One problem is that few players accept that format.  In
looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the "movie" is
a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the
tools I have.

-I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).
-Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.
-Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
-Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
-In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
-Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
-Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.
-Burn it.

Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info
tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk.  The "movie" must really
be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18
hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD.  Can that be true?

If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care package
that shows the MSP end of it.  I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but
the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that
likes to see midievent messages.

Cheers
Gary Lee Nelson
Oberlin College
www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson

audio-dvd

DVDs use chunks of the current frame to fill in the next frame so if

every frame is the same, it can just reuse the data and thus massively

compress the video. This is probably what's happening.

> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound

> compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In

> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the "movie" is

> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the

> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).

> -Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.

> -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.

> -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter

> -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter

> -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.

> -Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.

> Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info

> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The "movie" must really

> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18

> hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be true?

> If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care package

> that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but

> the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that

> Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?

DVDs use chunks of the current frame to fill in the next frame so if
every frame is the same, it can just reuse the data and thus massively
compress the video.  This is probably what's happening.

On 10/25/06, Gary Lee Nelson  wrote:
> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound
> compositions.  One problem is that few players accept that format.  In
> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the "movie" is
> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the
> tools I have.
>
> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).
> -Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.
> -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
> -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
> -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
> -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
> -Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.
> -Burn it.
>
> Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info
> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk.  The "movie" must really
> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18
> hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD.  Can that be true?
>
> If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care package
> that shows the MSP end of it.  I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but
> the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that
> likes to see midievent messages.
>
> Cheers
> Gary Lee Nelson
> Oberlin College
> www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson
>
> Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?
>
>
>


For quality purposes the DVD-audio format is preferred.

An example of this is Immersion (i own it).

http://www.starkland.com/st2010/index.htm

But it's not so easy to find a player for these...

> DVDs use chunks of the current frame to fill in the next frame so if

> every frame is the same, it can just reuse the data and thus massively

> compress the video. This is probably what's happening.

> > I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound

> > compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In

> > looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the "movie" is

> > a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the

> > -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).

> > -Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.

> > -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.

> > -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter

> > -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter

> > -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.

> > -Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.

> > Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info

> > tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The "movie" must really

> > be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18

> > hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be true?

> > If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care package

> > that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but

> > the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that

> > Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?

2006/10/25, Wesley Smith :
> DVDs use chunks of the current frame to fill in the next frame so if
> every frame is the same, it can just reuse the data and thus massively
> compress the video.  This is probably what's happening.
>
> wes
>
> On 10/25/06, Gary Lee Nelson  wrote:
> > I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound
> > compositions.  One problem is that few players accept that format.  In
> > looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the "movie" is
> > a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the
> > tools I have.
> >
> > -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).
> > -Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.
> > -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
> > -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
> > -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
> > -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
> > -Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.
> > -Burn it.
> >
> > Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info
> > tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk.  The "movie" must really
> > be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18
> > hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD.  Can that be true?
> >
> > If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care package
> > that shows the MSP end of it.  I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but
> > the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that
> > likes to see midievent messages.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Gary Lee Nelson
> > Oberlin College
> > www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson
> >
> > Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?
> >
> >
> >
>


Dolby AC3 is heavily lossy compressed. You should be able to choose 

the compression rate, but even the highest bitrate is not that hifi. 

AC3 was made for getting lots of (movie)audio on a DVD in very little 

space, so the rest of the DVD can be filled with pretty pictures. 

Probably MPEG multichannel and DTS are not much better.

Op 25-okt-2006, om 20:34 heeft Gary Lee Nelson het volgende geschreven:

> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering 

> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the 

> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 

> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex 

> Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. 

> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The "movie" must 

> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of 

> hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be 

> If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care 

> that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the 

> the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual 

Dolby AC3 is heavily lossy compressed. You should be able to choose  
the compression rate, but even the highest bitrate is not that hifi.  
AC3 was made for getting lots of (movie)audio on a DVD in very little  
space, so the rest of the DVD can be filled with pretty pictures.  
Probably MPEG multichannel and DTS are not much better.

Zip Boterbloem
Media Mechanics
Zwaluwstraat 54
2025 VR  Haarlem
The Netherlands
+31627014758
zip@knoware.nl

> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering  
> surround sound
> compositions.  One problem is that few players accept that format.  In
> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the  
> "movie" is
> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1  
> with the
> tools I have.
>
> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex  
> audio).
> -Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.
> -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
> -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
> -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
> -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
> -Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.
> -Burn it.
>
> Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound.  
> Get info
> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk.  The "movie" must  
> really
> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of  
> almost 18
> hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD.  Can that be  
> true?
>
> If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care  
> package
> that shows the MSP end of it.  I am using GPO as my synth at the  
> moment but
> the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual  
> instrument that
> likes to see midievent messages.
>
> Cheers
> Gary Lee Nelson
> Oberlin College
> www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson
>
> Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?
>
>


If the capacity is truly 18 hours with single frame movies then I can

certainly afford to push AC3 to the max or go to better format. The first

issue for me is, of course, quality but I started my computer music career

in the 1960's at a sampling rate of 10K so everything sounds better.

Compressor and DVD Pro can do a multitude of formats. I'll be doing the

research on this but I'll appreciate any suggestions about mpeg and DTS?

(Not sure I have access to a DTS encoder.)

The second issue is distribution. We have labored so long with

electroacoustic music without a standard performance medium or delivery

system. You write a piano or flute piece and you know that lots of people

can perform it. You write computer music and people have to deal with

hardware that is always changing and recording media that do likewise.

Everybody has a DVD player with surround sound these days.

Finally, we talk so much about sound quality but what about content? I had

an office mate at Purdue who was a Mozart scholar. At one of his parties,

an EE student showed up with some test gear and shortly announced, "Larry,

your sound system has almost nothing above 3000 Hz." Larry replied,

"everything that interests me about Mozart is below 3000 Hz."

On 10/25/06 3:04 PM, "Zip Boterbloem" wrote:

> Dolby AC3 is heavily lossy compressed. You should be able to choose

> the compression rate, but even the highest bitrate is not that hifi.

> AC3 was made for getting lots of (movie)audio on a DVD in very little

> space, so the rest of the DVD can be filled with pretty pictures.

> Probably MPEG multichannel and DTS are not much better.

> Op 25-okt-2006, om 20:34 heeft Gary Lee Nelson het volgende geschreven:

>> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering

>> compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In

>> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the

>> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1

>> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex

>> -Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.

>> -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.

>> -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter

>> -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter

>> -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.

>> -Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.

>> Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound.

>> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The "movie" must

>> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of

>> hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be

If the capacity is truly 18 hours with single frame movies then I can
certainly afford to push AC3 to the max or go to better format.  The first
issue for me is, of course, quality but I started my computer music career
in the 1960's at a sampling rate of 10K so everything sounds better.
Compressor and DVD Pro can do a multitude of formats.  I'll be doing the
research on this but I'll appreciate any suggestions about mpeg and DTS?
(Not sure I have access to a DTS encoder.)

The second issue is distribution.  We have labored so long with
electroacoustic music without a standard performance medium or delivery
system.  You write a piano or flute piece and you know that lots of people
can perform it.  You write computer music and people have to deal with
hardware that is always changing and recording media that do likewise.
Everybody has a DVD player with surround sound these days.

Finally, we talk so much about sound quality but what about content?  I had
an office mate at Purdue who was a Mozart scholar.  At one of his parties,
an EE student showed up with some test gear and shortly announced, "Larry,
your sound system has almost nothing above 3000 Hz."  Larry replied,
"everything that interests me about Mozart is below 3000 Hz."

On 10/25/06 3:04 PM, "Zip Boterbloem"  wrote:

> Dolby AC3 is heavily lossy compressed. You should be able to choose
> the compression rate, but even the highest bitrate is not that hifi.
> AC3 was made for getting lots of (movie)audio on a DVD in very little
> space, so the rest of the DVD can be filled with pretty pictures.
> Probably MPEG multichannel and DTS are not much better.
>
> Best,
>
> Zip
>
> Zip Boterbloem
> Media Mechanics
> Zwaluwstraat 54
> 2025 VR  Haarlem
> The Netherlands
> +31627014758
> zip@knoware.nl
>
>
>
> Op 25-okt-2006, om 20:34 heeft Gary Lee Nelson het volgende geschreven:
>
>> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering
>> surround sound
>> compositions.  One problem is that few players accept that format.  In
>> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the
>> "movie" is
>> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1
>> with the
>> tools I have.
>>
>> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex
>> audio).
>> -Save the audio as 48K monofiles - one for each channel.
>> -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
>> -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
>> -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
>> -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
>> -Connect all of the assets and make a menu - DVD Studio Pro stuff.
>> -Burn it.
>>
>> Check my math...I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound.
>> Get info
>> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk.  The "movie" must
>> really
>> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of
>> almost 18
>> hours at Compressor's default settings on a 4.7GB DVD.  Can that be
>> true?
>>
>> If anyone is interested in the details of this I'll make up a care
>> package
>> that shows the MSP end of it.  I am using GPO as my synth at the
>> moment but
>> the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual
>> instrument that
>> likes to see midievent messages.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Gary Lee Nelson
>> Oberlin College
>> www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson
>>
>> Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?
>>
>>
>

On 25-oct.-06, at 21:35, Gary Lee Nelson wrote:

> If the capacity is truly 18 hours with single frame movies then I can

> certainly afford to push AC3 to the max or go to better format.

When I tried to used DVD as 5+1 audio support, I noticed that it was 

impossible to jump to a random position in the soundfile if there 

wasn't a movie/MPEG2 of the same duration (or longer) than the 

This is of course a quite usefull feature if you need to rehearse and 

have to be able to jump whereever you want. It may be possible to 

insert index, or chapters, but I didn't investigate much. And this was 

a couple of years ago, with an old DVD studio pro version. It may of 

course be usefull to have the movie displaying the current time 

> If the capacity is truly 18 hours with single frame movies then I can
> certainly afford to push AC3 to the max or go to better format.

When I tried to used DVD as 5+1 audio support, I noticed that it was 
impossible to jump to a random position in the soundfile if there 
wasn't a movie/MPEG2 of the same duration (or longer) than the 
audio/AC3 file.

This is of course a quite usefull feature if you need to rehearse and 
have to be able to jump whereever you want. It may be possible to 
insert index, or chapters, but I didn't investigate much. And this was 
a couple of years ago, with an old DVD studio pro version. It may of 
course be usefull to have the movie displaying the current time 
position.

On 10/25/06 4:15 PM, "Patrick Delges" wrote:

> course be usefull to have the movie displaying the current time

On 10/25/06 4:15 PM, "Patrick Delges"  wrote:

> It may of 
> course be usefull to have the movie displaying the current time
> position.

DVD-audio is so much better for quality, and players are becoming 

more and more present, that I think you should do a dual format DVD, 

like all the new albums out on Empreintes DIGITALes. Mine, for 

instance, is stereo only but was published in uncompressed PCM 

48kHz24bit on the DVD-V part, and in 96kHz24bit on the DVD-A part, 

and believe me, the difference is audible, even for a anti-audiophile 

The ac-3 is a very loose compression format, so the difference 

between the lossless compression of the 5.1 DVD-A and its DVD-V 

counterpart will be very big, so I think publishing a dual format is 

BTW, Empreintes DIGITALes publish a triple format, with DVD-Rom as 

well, to provide "high-quality" mp3 and aac as well.

DVD-audio is so much better for quality, and players are becoming  
more and more present, that I think you should do a dual format DVD,  
like all the new albums out on Empreintes DIGITALes.  Mine, for  
instance, is stereo only but was published in uncompressed PCM  
48kHz24bit on the DVD-V part, and in 96kHz24bit on the DVD-A part,  
and believe me, the difference is audible, even for a anti-audiophile  
like me.

The ac-3 is a very loose compression format, so the difference  
between the lossless compression of the 5.1 DVD-A and its DVD-V  
counterpart will be very big, so I think publishing a dual format is  
the way to go.

BTW, Empreintes DIGITALes publish a triple format, with DVD-Rom as  
well, to provide "high-quality" mp3 and aac as well.

> But it's not so easy to find a player for these...

It should be possible to make one in Max if the audio on the DVD is 

saved in a quicktime compatible format... The high quality audio should 

Alessandro Fogar wrote:
> But it's not so easy to find a player for these...
>
> Do you know a player for OS X ?

It should be possible to make one in Max if the audio on the DVD is 
saved in a quicktime compatible format... The high quality audio should 
be uncompressed...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


>> But it's not so easy to find a player for these...

> It should be possible to make one in Max if the audio on the DVD is 

> saved in a quicktime compatible format... The high quality audio 

AFAIK, the high quality audio is compressed in a lossless format 

I am very interested of an OS X app to decode if someone has one...

> Alessandro Fogar wrote:
>> But it's not so easy to find a player for these...
>> Do you know a player for OS X ?
>
> It should be possible to make one in Max if the audio on the DVD is  
> saved in a quicktime compatible format... The high quality audio  
> should be uncompressed...

AFAIK, the high quality audio is compressed in a lossless format  
called MLP (on mine at least)

Audio DVD