Audio DVD

Oct 25, 2006 at 6:34pm

Audio DVD

I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound
compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In
looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the “movie” is
a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the
tools I have.

-I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).
-Save the audio as 48K monofiles – one for each channel.
-Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
-Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
-In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
-Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
-Connect all of the assets and make a menu – DVD Studio Pro stuff.
-Burn it.

Check my math…I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info
tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The “movie” must really
be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18
hours at Compressor’s default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be true?

If anyone is interested in the details of this I’ll make up a care package
that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but
the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that
likes to see midievent messages.

Cheers
Gary Lee Nelson
Oberlin College
http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson

Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?

#28358
Oct 25, 2006 at 6:49pm

DVDs use chunks of the current frame to fill in the next frame so if
every frame is the same, it can just reuse the data and thus massively
compress the video. This is probably what’s happening.

wes

On 10/25/06, Gary Lee Nelson wrote:
> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound
> compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In
> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the “movie” is
> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the
> tools I have.
>
> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).
> -Save the audio as 48K monofiles – one for each channel.
> -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
> -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
> -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
> -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
> -Connect all of the assets and make a menu – DVD Studio Pro stuff.
> -Burn it.
>
> Check my math…I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info
> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The “movie” must really
> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18
> hours at Compressor’s default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be true?
>
> If anyone is interested in the details of this I’ll make up a care package
> that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but
> the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that
> likes to see midievent messages.
>
> Cheers
> Gary Lee Nelson
> Oberlin College
> http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson
>
> Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?
>
>
>

#86933
Oct 25, 2006 at 7:01pm

Yes, I confirm, the audio is compressed.

For quality purposes the DVD-audio format is preferred.

An example of this is Immersion (i own it).

http://www.starkland.com/st2010/index.htm

But it’s not so easy to find a player for these…

Do you know a player for OS X ?

All the best

Alessandro Fogar

2006/10/25, Wesley Smith :
> DVDs use chunks of the current frame to fill in the next frame so if
> every frame is the same, it can just reuse the data and thus massively
> compress the video. This is probably what’s happening.
>
> wes
>
> On 10/25/06, Gary Lee Nelson wrote:
> > I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering surround sound
> > compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In
> > looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the “movie” is
> > a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1 with the
> > tools I have.
> >
> > -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex audio).
> > -Save the audio as 48K monofiles – one for each channel.
> > -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
> > -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
> > -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
> > -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
> > -Connect all of the assets and make a menu – DVD Studio Pro stuff.
> > -Burn it.
> >
> > Check my math…I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound. Get info
> > tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The “movie” must really
> > be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of almost 18
> > hours at Compressor’s default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be true?
> >
> > If anyone is interested in the details of this I’ll make up a care package
> > that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the moment but
> > the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual instrument that
> > likes to see midievent messages.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Gary Lee Nelson
> > Oberlin College
> > http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson
> >
> > Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?
> >
> >
> >
>

#86934
Oct 25, 2006 at 7:04pm

Dolby AC3 is heavily lossy compressed. You should be able to choose
the compression rate, but even the highest bitrate is not that hifi.
AC3 was made for getting lots of (movie)audio on a DVD in very little
space, so the rest of the DVD can be filled with pretty pictures.
Probably MPEG multichannel and DTS are not much better.

Best,

Zip

Zip Boterbloem
Media Mechanics
Zwaluwstraat 54
2025 VR Haarlem
The Netherlands
+31627014758
zip@knoware.nl

Op 25-okt-2006, om 20:34 heeft Gary Lee Nelson het volgende geschreven:

> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering
> surround sound
> compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In
> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the
> “movie” is
> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1
> with the
> tools I have.
>
> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex
> audio).
> -Save the audio as 48K monofiles – one for each channel.
> -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
> -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
> -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
> -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
> -Connect all of the assets and make a menu – DVD Studio Pro stuff.
> -Burn it.
>
> Check my math…I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound.
> Get info
> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The “movie” must
> really
> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of
> almost 18
> hours at Compressor’s default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be
> true?
>
> If anyone is interested in the details of this I’ll make up a care
> package
> that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the
> moment but
> the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual
> instrument that
> likes to see midievent messages.
>
> Cheers
> Gary Lee Nelson
> Oberlin College
> http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson
>
> Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?
>
>

#86935
Oct 25, 2006 at 7:35pm

If the capacity is truly 18 hours with single frame movies then I can
certainly afford to push AC3 to the max or go to better format. The first
issue for me is, of course, quality but I started my computer music career
in the 1960′s at a sampling rate of 10K so everything sounds better.
Compressor and DVD Pro can do a multitude of formats. I’ll be doing the
research on this but I’ll appreciate any suggestions about mpeg and DTS?
(Not sure I have access to a DTS encoder.)

The second issue is distribution. We have labored so long with
electroacoustic music without a standard performance medium or delivery
system. You write a piano or flute piece and you know that lots of people
can perform it. You write computer music and people have to deal with
hardware that is always changing and recording media that do likewise.
Everybody has a DVD player with surround sound these days.

Finally, we talk so much about sound quality but what about content? I had
an office mate at Purdue who was a Mozart scholar. At one of his parties,
an EE student showed up with some test gear and shortly announced, “Larry,
your sound system has almost nothing above 3000 Hz.” Larry replied,
“everything that interests me about Mozart is below 3000 Hz.”

On 10/25/06 3:04 PM, “Zip Boterbloem” wrote:

> Dolby AC3 is heavily lossy compressed. You should be able to choose
> the compression rate, but even the highest bitrate is not that hifi.
> AC3 was made for getting lots of (movie)audio on a DVD in very little
> space, so the rest of the DVD can be filled with pretty pictures.
> Probably MPEG multichannel and DTS are not much better.
>
> Best,
>
> Zip
>
> Zip Boterbloem
> Media Mechanics
> Zwaluwstraat 54
> 2025 VR Haarlem
> The Netherlands
> +31627014758
> zip@knoware.nl
>
>
>
> Op 25-okt-2006, om 20:34 heeft Gary Lee Nelson het volgende geschreven:
>
>> I have been looking into DVD audio as a format for delivering
>> surround sound
>> compositions. One problem is that few players accept that format. In
>> looking at alternatives, I found that I can make a DVD where the
>> “movie” is
>> a single frame and the audio can be anything from stereo to 6.1
>> with the
>> tools I have.
>>
>> -I generate the material with Max/MSP (in nonrealtime for complex
>> audio).
>> -Save the audio as 48K monofiles – one for each channel.
>> -Use Compressor (comes with DVD Studio Pro) to make Dolby AC3.
>> -Create a single frame as a jpg with the title of the piece/chapter
>> -In DVD Studio Pro, import the frame and the audio to a track/chapter
>> -Stretch the still frame so that it matches the length of the audio.
>> -Connect all of the assets and make a menu – DVD Studio Pro stuff.
>> -Burn it.
>>
>> Check my math…I burned a test DVD with one minute of quad sound.
>> Get info
>> tells me that there is 3.8MB of data on the disk. The “movie” must
>> really
>> be compressed/optimized because I am calculating a capacity of
>> almost 18
>> hours at Compressor’s default settings on a 4.7GB DVD. Can that be
>> true?
>>
>> If anyone is interested in the details of this I’ll make up a care
>> package
>> that shows the MSP end of it. I am using GPO as my synth at the
>> moment but
>> the abstractions I am making will work with any vst virtual
>> instrument that
>> likes to see midievent messages.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Gary Lee Nelson
>> Oberlin College
>> http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson
>>
>> Ps. Are Qtmusic and FluidSynth~ UB yet?
>>
>>
>

Cheers
Gary Lee Nelson
Oberlin College
http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson

#86936
Oct 25, 2006 at 8:15pm

On 25-oct.-06, at 21:35, Gary Lee Nelson wrote:

> If the capacity is truly 18 hours with single frame movies then I can
> certainly afford to push AC3 to the max or go to better format.

When I tried to used DVD as 5+1 audio support, I noticed that it was
impossible to jump to a random position in the soundfile if there
wasn’t a movie/MPEG2 of the same duration (or longer) than the
audio/AC3 file.

This is of course a quite usefull feature if you need to rehearse and
have to be able to jump whereever you want. It may be possible to
insert index, or chapters, but I didn’t investigate much. And this was
a couple of years ago, with an old DVD studio pro version. It may of
course be usefull to have the movie displaying the current time
position.

p

#86937
Oct 25, 2006 at 9:31pm

…or a page of score.

On 10/25/06 4:15 PM, “Patrick Delges”

wrote:

> It may of
> course be usefull to have the movie displaying the current time
> position.

Cheers
Gary Lee Nelson
Oberlin College
http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson

#86938
Oct 26, 2006 at 7:45am

My 2 cents

DVD-audio is so much better for quality, and players are becoming
more and more present, that I think you should do a dual format DVD,
like all the new albums out on Empreintes DIGITALes. Mine, for
instance, is stereo only but was published in uncompressed PCM
48kHz24bit on the DVD-V part, and in 96kHz24bit on the DVD-A part,
and believe me, the difference is audible, even for a anti-audiophile
like me.

The ac-3 is a very loose compression format, so the difference
between the lossless compression of the 5.1 DVD-A and its DVD-V
counterpart will be very big, so I think publishing a dual format is
the way to go.

BTW, Empreintes DIGITALes publish a triple format, with DVD-Rom as
well, to provide “high-quality” mp3 and aac as well.

pa

#86939
Oct 27, 2006 at 10:12pm

Alessandro Fogar wrote:
> But it’s not so easy to find a player for these…
>
> Do you know a player for OS X ?

It should be possible to make one in Max if the audio on the DVD is
saved in a quicktime compatible format… The high quality audio should
be uncompressed…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#86940
Oct 28, 2006 at 8:36am

> Alessandro Fogar wrote:
>> But it’s not so easy to find a player for these…
>> Do you know a player for OS X ?
>
> It should be possible to make one in Max if the audio on the DVD is
> saved in a quicktime compatible format… The high quality audio
> should be uncompressed…

AFAIK, the high quality audio is compressed in a lossless format
called MLP (on mine at least)

I am very interested of an OS X app to decode if someone has one…

pa

#86941

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