Auto save, backup?

Nov 6, 2008 at 6:17am

Auto save, backup?

When Max5 crashes for some reason, and your patch wasn’t saved, is
there any way to recover it, such as what Logic or LIVE would do? It
seems like such a basic user interface…. I just lost 30 minutes of
work! :)

—————

http://www.marikimura.com

Please visit my NEW Blog: “Extended Violin Diary”

http://subharmonics.blogspot.com/

#40696
Nov 6, 2008 at 9:04am

On 6 nov. 08, at 07:17, Mari Kimura wrote:

> When Max5 crashes for some reason, and your patch wasn’t saved, is
> there any way to recover it, such as what Logic or LIVE would do?
> It seems like such a basic user interface…. I just lost 30
> minutes of work! :)

Well the first rule of using a computer is “save your work as often as
you can” (the second is “make backups as often as you can”). Look at
the archive , there’s a few people who have made some patches which
implements some auto backup system.

ej

#144200
Nov 6, 2008 at 12:37pm

Mari, when you’re on a Mac:
It is possible, that Max saves a last version right before it crashes, into the same folder that your patch was stored before, under almost the same name, but with a 2 or 3-digit number attached to it. that’s waht happens when max crashes here, and this already worked with mac 4.6 as well.
i am not sure that this would work on pc, i am on osx 10.4.11.

#144201
Nov 6, 2008 at 2:52pm

Yes I know I know :) Save, save, and save… I just forgot while
writing my patch. But then I just wondered since other commercial
programs, even Microsoft Word, would have a ‘rescue’ auto-save and you
can recover the file, which isn’t unreasonable for users at all,
especially when programs like Logic and LIVE auto-saves the files
before the crash.

“Archive” in cycling74?

Thanks so much
mk

On Nov 6, 2008, at 4:04 AM, Emmanuel Jourdan wrote:

> On 6 nov. 08, at 07:17, Mari Kimura wrote:
>
>> When Max5 crashes for some reason, and your patch wasn’t saved, is
>> there any way to recover it, such as what Logic or LIVE would do?
>> It seems like such a basic user interface…. I just lost 30
>> minutes of work! :)
>
> Well the first rule of using a computer is “save your work as often
> as you can” (the second is “make backups as often as you can”). Look
> at the archive , there’s a few people who have made some patches
> which implements some auto backup system.
>
> ej

—————

http://www.marikimura.com

Please visit my NEW Blog: “Extended Violin Diary”

http://subharmonics.blogspot.com/

#144202
Nov 6, 2008 at 2:54pm

Thanks, but I didn’t find the recovered patch… I’m on 10.5.4 using
Max5 (for this project that crashed)
mk

On Nov 6, 2008, at 7:37 AM, jayrope wrote:

> Mari, when you’re on a Mac:
> It is possible, that Max saves a last version right before it
> crashes, into the same folder that your patch was stored before,
> under almost the same name, but with a 2 or 3-digit number attached
> to it. that’s waht happens when max crashes here, and this already
> worked with mac 4.6 as well.
> i am not sure that this would work on pc, i am on osx 10.4.11.

—————

http://www.marikimura.com

Please visit my NEW Blog: “Extended Violin Diary”

http://subharmonics.blogspot.com/

#144203
Nov 6, 2008 at 3:22pm

On 6 nov. 08, at 15:52, Mari Kimura wrote:

> Yes I know I know :) Save, save, and save… I just forgot while
> writing my patch. But then I just wondered since other commercial
> programs, even Microsoft Word, would have a ‘rescue’ auto-save and
> you can recover the file, which isn’t unreasonable for users at all,
> especially when programs like Logic and LIVE auto-saves the files
> before the crash.

One of the problem of that is if you want to make an autosave, you
have to save the file with another name. As you can instantiate max
patches as abstractions, this could lead to a lot of troubles. For
instance, what would happen if the backup system would save the
abstractions with new names? I would suggest using some strategies
like Time Machine, cvs/svn if you’re motivated ;-)

> “Archive” in cycling74?

yep, the archive of the forum.

ej

#144204
Nov 6, 2008 at 3:25pm

Sorry to hear that. It seems, that Leopard (10.5) doesn’t support this feature eventually… gives me one more reason to stick to Tiger (10.4)

You’ll probably develop a kind of reflex, hitting apple-s unconciously whenever you made an important change to your patch.
One can get used to it!

jrp

#144205
Nov 6, 2008 at 3:49pm

“One of the problem of that is if you want to make an autosave, you
have to save the file with another name”…

That’s what i personally found to be rather an advantadge before, especially when saving with a new name.
As you seem to be reporting, that Max doesn’t have a backup system of it’s own, why does max (both 4.6 and 5.05) here create a last-saved version right before a crash at all?

more exact:
when my original patch was named “originalpatch”, then the version saved during a crash has a name like “originalpatch73″ or similar.
this – if undocumented – feature does help a lot, as it saved hours of work for me before.
the only “problem” that arises, is, that after a few crashes the folder containing the patch in question clutters up with all kinds of emergency-saved versions. but i can always find the most recent version by sorting the folder contents by date, if needed, and later save the newly opened emergency-saved patched under its original name.

jrp

#144206
Nov 6, 2008 at 5:41pm

#144207
Nov 6, 2008 at 10:13pm

Even Jesus saves.

bt

barry threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA
Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
Web: http://www.barrythrew.com

On Nov 5, 2008, at 10:17 PM, Mari Kimura wrote:

> When Max5 crashes for some reason, and your patch wasn’t saved, is
> there any way to recover it, such as what Logic or LIVE would do?
> It seems like such a basic user interface…. I just lost 30
> minutes of work! :)
>
>
> —————
> http://www.marikimura.com
>
> Please visit my NEW Blog: “Extended Violin Diary”
> http://subharmonics.blogspot.com/
>
>
>

#144208
Nov 6, 2008 at 10:18pm

Quote: jayrope wrote on Thu, 06 November 2008 07:37
—————————————————-
> Mari, when you’re on a Mac:
> It is possible, that Max saves a last version right before it crashes, into the same folder that your patch was stored before, under almost the same name, but with a 2 or 3-digit number attached to it. that’s waht happens when max crashes here, and this already worked with mac 4.6 as well.
> i am not sure that this would work on pc, i am on osx 10.4.11.
—————————————————-

That never happened for me with 4.5-6 on Tiger or Leopard or with Max 5 on Leopard. Maybe I’ve just been unlucky :(

#144209
Nov 7, 2008 at 1:07pm

Ouch. Pseudo-religious safe-savers with unconfirmed ex-existence are walking in to disturb the picture. Quickly get back to reading “the Wild Highway”!

#144210
Nov 7, 2008 at 5:52pm

Mari Kimura schrieb:
> But then I just wondered since other commercial programs, even
> Microsoft Word, would have a ‘rescue’ auto-save and you can recover
> the file, which isn’t unreasonable for users at all, especially when
> programs like Logic and LIVE auto-saves the files before the crash.

The reason is simple, in all these programs you usually work on a single
document. In Max you work on a lot of documents at the same time, this
poses a lot of logistic problems/thoughts. And a lot of changes are of
temporary nature, which you maybe don’t want to be saved at all…

jayrope, what you describe never happened to me, maybe you had installed
some extra tools?

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#144211
Nov 7, 2008 at 6:21pm

> jayrope, what you describe never happened to me, maybe you had
> installed some extra tools?

possibly. my computer had developer tools for Tiger installed for instance. i don’t know if that’s related, though.
if it didn’t break down two days ago i could run some checks on this, woudl be interestign to find out about a certain third-party application that max is benefitting from without c74 knowing about it.

j

#144212
Nov 7, 2008 at 6:38pm

We are looking at the possibility of writing the undo history of a patch to file, which would help with recovering your work and also the ability to undo past the last save and close of a patch. This feature has many other possible uses, such as permitting teachers to spy on their students’ work habits!

The “feature” jayrope mentions is there to protect against losing your work when Max crashes *while* it is saving over an existing file. It first writes out our patch to a different filename, such as yourpatch-61, then once the file is completely written, it is renamed to have the original name. This feature won’t help Mari, unfortunately.

David Z.

#144213
Nov 7, 2008 at 8:13pm

>
We are looking at the possibility of writing the undo history of a patch to file, which would help with recovering your work and also the ability to undo past the last save and close of a patch.
>

Would this also work for new “Untitled” patches that you have not yet saved? I most often get burned when I start a new patch, and then get deeply enough into the design process to forget to save it before losing everything to a totally unanticipated (often interface-related) crash.

Eric

#144214
Nov 7, 2008 at 8:44pm

Quote: David Zicarelli wrote on Fri, 07 November 2008 13:38
—————————————————-
> We are looking at the possibility of writing the undo history of a patch to file, which would help with recovering your work and also the ability to undo past the last save and close of a patch. This feature has many other possible uses, such as permitting teachers to spy on their students’ work habits!
>

David, would this saved undo history be part of the patch file or part of another file? If another file, would you be able to recreate the patch if the patch file is destroyed? I have become an obsessive saver so I do not need autosave for when I forget to, but a couple of times I have completely lost a patch due to file corruption caused by a crash.

#144215

m
Nov 7, 2008 at 9:07pm

Am 07.11.2008 um 19:38 schrieb David Zicarelli:

> We are looking at the possibility of writing the undo history of a
> patch to file, which would help with recovering your work and also
> the ability to undo past the last save and close of a patch.

as religion is back to this list:

__________HALLELUJA_______________

#144216
Nov 7, 2008 at 9:12pm

Quote: David Zicarelli wrote on Fri, 07 November 2008 10:38
—————————————————-
> We are looking at the possibility of writing the undo history of a patch to file

This is really interesting, especially if the file format is consumable by end users (JSON maybe?).

I’ve been getting motivated to make some Max tutorials lately, but I don’t like the “read this big document and follow along on your own” style of tutorials when Max has so much interactivity potential. I want to script building the patch as part of the tutorial, so as you read through the tutorial in [jweb] you get to see the patch being built.

I was thinking about trying to do this in JS but it seems like a lot of work. If I could somehow capture the undo history, start at the beginning and just redo all the commands, then it could be trivial to do what I want.

I’m sure this has nothing to do with what you are actually planning, but I thought it was a really neat idea and if there’s any way it could be supported by undo history, that would be awesome! So I wanted to throw the idea out there.

#144217
Nov 7, 2008 at 9:19pm

Sequencing actions for tutorial purposes as well as the ability to recreate problems from sequences of user actions are two other applications of this idea. But as I said, we’re only at the conceptual stage. No precise decisions about how it will work have been made yet. I just thought I’d mention what my thoughts are about this type of problem.

As to Eric’s question, my guess is that there would be a single “untitled” undo history, so the moment you create a new document, you’d probably lose the history for the previously unsaved document.

David Z.

#144218
Nov 8, 2008 at 3:48am

I inquired about this about a month or two ago.

I’m wondering, why does having multiple files open pose a problem? It seems pretty logical to make an autosave that has something like ‘.backup’ appended to the end of the name of the file, in the same folder as the file. This could easily work for multiple patches.

I’m pretty sure Max can tell what is a patcher file, and what is a subpatcher file, so that shouldn’t be an issue.

As for abstractions, autosaving a copy as Untitled.backup should make it obvious to end-users that they should rename it – or just have max rename it to .maxpat upon trying to save it, at which point the finder will say ‘That file already exists, would you like to replace it?’

People have suggested a small abstraction that links to a [thispatcher] which automatically saves your document – I actually really don’t like that idea, entirely because it’s overwriting my file, as opposed to actually saving a backup. What if I’ve made a change that causes a crash upon loading, and it gets autosaved to the actual document? I’ve had that happen and it’s a HUGE pain to try and fix (involving opening the file in a text editor and fixing it by hand).

The only real problem I see with a ‘real’ autosave system is that some patches can get quite large, and may cause a stall while saving – having Max lock up every 5-10 minutes while it saves a backup would be annoying.

#144219
Jun 4, 2013 at 8:53pm

this is lame. in this day and age all the software i use can rebuild a file from undo history. max shouldn’t be an exception.

#251710
Jul 15, 2013 at 9:22pm

I’d like to request that auto-backup be a feature, nowadays it’s completely standard for any sort of professional software package to be able to backup your files at regular intervals. In my 3D graphics software (Cinema 4D) you can specify how many backups you want and how often it backs up and it’ll backup to a folder in the installation directory without affecting the naming of your current file or any external references. And this is in a piece of software handling files that regularly become hundreds of MBs big.

Especially since one of the help patchers just crashed my Max..

#256145
Jul 16, 2013 at 1:04am

Also many other programs offer the ability to recover your work when started up after a crash or give you an option to send an automatically compiled bug report.

#256150

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