Forums > MaxMSP

beat manipulation with the coll object


REC
August 22, 2007 | 1:41 am

oh yeah.. i just checked to make sure the text version is right. i noticed when you paste it all the number boxes are set to zero in order for it to work you need to enter some numbers other than that. and also click on the gate at the bottom to get it going.. this is what i use to turn the thing off..



REC
August 22, 2007 | 10:01 pm

it’s kinda funny it seems like evry time i post a request for assistance or advice absolutely no one replies to my messages. honestly, am i asking stupid questions. i know there is a certain educate to posting a topic, like trying to figure things out on your own and researching well.. so i post a patch i’ve been working on. I’m not rying to get someone to write a patch for me… just some ideas. I mean does no one else want to create some crazy beats with max that can be transformed in realtime? If so can anyone suggest a better way to go about it than what i’ve shown in my patch.

it’s just weird, i mean someone who’s never posted on the list before can write a message and ask for assistance on a school assignment, and 30 people will reply. "read the manual, what are you trying to acomplish, youre techer is probably on this list your busted".. blah blah blah. yet i post an honest message for some creative input and get absolutely nothing. i guess the lesson here is you have to figure it out on your own. don’t expect help from others.. or wait for someone else to ask the same question and read the responses they get. Since i guess they have better writing skills and don’t portray themselves as complete idiots (like i do.. i guess).

anyway, i do like this list i’ll just not ask anymore questions and jsut search archives and read other peoples questions and comments. Cause asking for advice and getting nothing is just depressing. so thanks to all those people who are asking the "right " questions.. if it wasn’t for you i’d don’t know if this list would even exist.

matt


August 22, 2007 | 11:07 pm

Matt,
You ever consider that people are not responded to your
request because they don’t have an answer to your question?

This list is filled with heavy max/msp/jitter heads, people
usually put in alot of time and thought into responses.
Now your plea for attention has caused me to respond, but
unfortuntely i can not help you with you request either.
Your request has not falling upon deaf ears.

Overall it is always good to bounce off ideas off people,
so don’t be discouraged. When you want help, sometimes you
just have to wait. Patience is pertinent in this type of
situation.
-chuck

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to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

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August 23, 2007 | 12:08 am

On 22/08/07, Chubb wrote:
> You ever consider that people are not responded to your
> request because they don’t have an answer to your question?

Or your question was really long and involved opening a patch and studying it.

The questions that tend to get answered quickly are usually short and
straight-forward: "what’s the object that does x?". My favorites are
the more philosophical ones.

There’s a lot of traffic on this list, and many people can only read,
let alone respond to, and small number of posts.

Don’t give up on this list – it’s one of the most informative places
on the ‘net.


August 23, 2007 | 2:14 am

I’ll go ahead and take credit for starting the patch. Your welcome.

Try repeating small sub-sequences of notes. Or write a patch that takes the output of the coll and then splits it into two notes of half the length (i.e. if the pitch is 60 and the duration is 100 ms, find a way to make two successive notes with a pitch of 60 and a duration of 50 ms)

You can also manipulate the pitch in all sorts of ways such as transposing notes by certain intervals.

Incorporate probability to switch between different modes (i.e. forward/reverse/sub-sequences) using the random object and comparison operators.

Also, just listen to stuff you like. Listen to the kinds of rhythmic manipulations that are going on in those songs and think about how you would incorporate them using max objects.

Keep in mind that not everyone has an ton of time to dedicate to you. The patch is large, and not straightforward. If i hadn’t written the initial part of it, I doubt I would have had any answers for you. I ignored even looking at this patch before simply because of the length.

It didn’t have anything to do with your question, and you’re not an idiot but you shouldn’t assume anyone owes you the time to figure out a large patch and hit you back with an answer. Though, I suppose it worked because here I am posting a reply.



REC
August 23, 2007 | 4:27 am

well i’m feeling like a complete A@@@# right now. i realize no one owes me anything… but it was just like the 3rd message of mine i’ve seen just plowing down the list with no support. And the amount of replies i see to questions that could easily be answered by reading the first page of the tutorials, made me wonder why i can’t get anyone to suggest some actual music making techniques. not to say it doesn’t happen on this list, just not for me recently.

i don’t know why the patch looks so long i really don’t thing it’s much to grasp.. really elemetary.. just wanted some input oh how to use the coll to further edit sequences in realtime.. Anyway i’ve made enough of an ass of myself so let me stop here. thanks for the input i like the idea of transposing certain notes in the list, (and the idea of make 1 note into 2.. i’d have never thought of that.. and that’s the kinda help i’m looking for)so like the bass drum coulb be a completely different sound at different times in the seq with just the turn the turn of a knob or slider. Actually i guess i could chang the whole damn kit .. that could be nice, without having to wait for the program to load, just have the samples ready to go on th same instrument.
thats basically what i’m going for, i want to use external controllers to edit the beats as they play. I’ll get there.. just going back in the shadows from now on, and just read rather than post.


August 23, 2007 | 5:35 am

maybe i was a bit harsh. dont be too hard on yourself, and dont be afraid to ask questions. i’ve had unanswered questions on this list too, and it can be frustrating. don’t take it personally though.

Every once and a while someone comes along that really irritates a lot of people on the forum, but you aren’t one of them!


August 25, 2007 | 9:28 am

Matthew Williams schrieb:
> well i’m feeling like a complete A@@@# right now. i realize no one
> owes me anything… but it was just like the 3rd message of mine i’ve
> seen just plowing down the list with no support.

I remeber, I looked at the patch, and wasn’t too much inclined to study
it too deaply.

First, your subject suggest already you know what you want to do, as you
seem to insist on the coll object to do it, that’s fine, but I would do
things maybe differently…
Second it wasn’t too clear what your goal is…

This is normally enough to believe that you’re smart enough to find out
yourself… ;-)

Very often the topic of questions is about a certain path to a solution.
That would not work well. If you first tell us what you want to do, and
then just list what you tried, then its much more likely to get help, as
you don’t push back answers which solve the problem completely
differently than you thought it should be solved…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
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– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com



REC
August 25, 2007 | 9:10 pm

thanks again for the suggestions. I really like addition you made to the patch CJ, definitely some food for thought. And so far as using the coll object for storing sequences, this was a result of the suggestion of others on the list. A couple of months ago when i posted a messsage about manipulation sequences in realtime More specifically drum patterns, people said coll would be the best for this. i’m just wanting to have more control over the beats.. some sort of interaction with the patterns.. My fist inclination was to use the table for doing such things. but it seemed like the consenus was that coll was the most flexible object for storing sequences. Is this not the case?.. Stefan what would you use for editting patterns in real time, if not the coll object?…

thanks again.. matt


August 25, 2007 | 10:28 pm

Coll is very flexible, so is table. I like the combination of the two, so the table can access the data in the coll and vice versa. Also look into matrixctrl for nicer-looking 2D storage; preset works with it, and having it have just two states (on and off) gives a lot of possibility, as does having multiple states (like volume levels).

Do look into mtr (best for interface-control recording rather than notes); and seq for recording / playback of your sequences. Then there’s seq~ as well, allowing variable-rate playback of control commands. And of course the almighty pattr, you can do just about anything with that.

I really like multislider too, to access points and assign volumes, etc, and it’s also pattr-able and presettable. Combine this with some zl list magic and you’ve got a wide range of tools for real-time tweaking.

–CJ


September 5, 2007 | 12:18 pm

Matthew Williams schrieb:
> Stefan what would you use for editting patterns
> in real time, if not the coll object?…

If I would be interested in patterns, I’d probably use some visual UI
objects like a multislider. I think there should be flowing some
examples in the archives, but I’d probably rather do it from scratch
than searching for it…
You can also look at specialised objects like detonate…
Not that coll is wrong, you surely can do it with coll, my point was,
that talking about "editing patterns" is more informative than talking
about a coll problem and might lead to more answers to your problem…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


September 6, 2007 | 10:02 pm

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Wed, 05 September 2007 05:18
—————————————————-
> Matthew Williams schrieb:
> > Stefan what would you use for editting patterns
> > in real time, if not the coll object?…
>
> If I would be interested in patterns, I’d probably use some visual UI
> objects like a multislider.

I think multislider and matrixctrl are the most generally useful UI objects for interaction, so definitely look at those. I use:

Multislider for generic sequences.

Matrixctrl for beat patterns. I just posted a simple example of this in the thread "What to do now?" thread.

Function for envelopes

Sometimes I use nsliders for note/chord sequences

jit.cellblock looks like it could be very useful but I don’t have much experience with it yet

You should be able to add on GUI controls without changing your existing patch much. The trick is to figure out how to connect a GUI object to you storage object (coll in your case). For example, if you wanted to sequence 8 notes, you could create 8 nsliders and hook them up to a coll via pak and listfunnel. Then you just sequence coll the way you are already doing it. I have some scripts that can add and remove nsliders so you can change the sequence length on the fly, but those need some more work before sharing.

For a lot of this stuff though, I keep coming back to using textedit. I find typing text directly into a patch without opening table or coll windows (or even using the GUI objects mentioned above) is much easier and faster for short sequences. I feed the output of textedit into a separate storage object, like coll.

As far as the sequence storage, I never got much use out of seq, detonate, or mtr. I ended up going down the table/coll route for a while, then multislider (for single values like just notes or just velocities, multislider is like coll with a built-in GUI), and more recently have built my own externals that do specifically what I want. When I need something like mtr with multiple tracks, I just put my monophonic sequencers in a poly~ patch. That isn’t to say you shouldn’t use seq/detonate/mtr – other people have suggested them because they are very good in many contexts. Those objects just didn’t fit my needs.

-Adam


September 6, 2007 | 11:14 pm

The jit.cellblock is definitely nice for storing small lists, so one could have pitch, velocity, duration, MIDI channel, bend, etc. in each cell. Plus it can refer to a coll so you have two locations for the data, and take advantage of coll’s commands like sort / renumber etc.

The access is nice with the Select mode, and using row / column select is also nice (can make chords, use zl group to separate the groups in the list). The appearance can be pretty good if you manipulate the cell background colors. I choose one hue (changeable) and have the saturation reflect the velocity (see swatch help file for the hsl command, it looks a lot better than using all kinds of different colors in the cells). Also, you can change the number of rows / columns on the fly, as well as the size of these. With some trickery you can have a scalable, zoomable sequencer grid using it, though the redraw at large sizes is slow.

The problem is that preset and pattr don’t support cellblock (or jit.matrix for that matter), which makes sense because of the variety of data the cells can have. I’d say stick to matrixctrl because it can be pretty and you can script the dimensions (by size commands to thispatcher). So the user can have 1 voice / track for 32 beats, 8 voices / tracks for 16 beats, etc. The only downfall is that the scale is predetermined by the picture size (unlike multislider, cellblock, and jit.matrix), so you might want two versions: one larger image for shorter sequences, one smaller for longer ones. Because pattr supports matrixctrl and multisliders, you have a whole world of possibilities with saving / recalling / interpolating between your settings. These give a big bang for the buck when actually making your music, which I hope happens at some point ;-)

–CJ


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