wallflower

Have my 250 and ready to splash but was just looking for some last minute feedback on M4l. im into creating experimental music and what can be achieved in max/msp is unreal. I have gathered all the resources together to learn max/msp but their is still this niggling little doubt that i wont understand the application. Im willing to learn for sure but is their a reason for me to feel like this? Also i know that the tutorials are the best place for learning but does anyone have any techniques for learning e.g one tutorial a day etc....

before-diving-in

I think you'll find it pretty natural. It has the best tutorials, help and reference files of anything I've ever encountered by a noticeable margin.

However, the other side of the coin is that the learning is perpetual. My first complicated patches were complete messes. Learning how to do things efficiently and neatly is a whole 'nother matter from learning the basics. I'm a few years in and finally beginning to feel I have a good grasp or organizing my patches.

I think you'll find it pretty natural.  It has the best tutorials, help and reference files of anything I've ever encountered by a noticeable margin.

However, the other side of the coin is that the learning is perpetual.  My first complicated patches were complete messes.  Learning how to do things efficiently and neatly is a whole 'nother matter from learning the basics.  I'm a few years in and finally beginning to feel I have a good grasp or organizing my patches.

It's not unusual to feel some trepidation before attempting something new and difficult, especially when it comes with a significant financial outlay. In my experience if someone is interested & motivated then not a lot else matters.

Personally when I start out with something like this I prefer to have a goal (e.g. a device) in mind and learn what I need to support me. The upside of this approach is that I stay motivated but the downside is that I can get in too deep too quickly and, if I picked too complex an initial goal, it can be frustrating.

You can't really learn "too fast" but remember it does take time for stuff you are learning to sink in and be reliably useful.

Max/MSP really works well as a scripting language for Ableton Live. I've been using and learning MFL since it was released on november 23 last year. You should realize that it's a visual language, concentrated around signal processing. This means you use the language in different ways than Visual Basic, C#, Java or Javascript. You can use Javascript for procedural tasks though. I think you really should have some background in programming to use MFL for your own patches and devices. Don't expect it to be easy to learn optimized ways of achieving good results. Of course you can use MFL only with third party devices, but to get the most use of it you really must learn to edit your own patchers.

I haven't had a second of regret buying MFL. 250 Euro's is not to much for the vast library of building blocks that comes with it.

If rolling your own synthesisers and effects is what you're up to you should consider buying NI Komplete 7 with Reaktor 5.5 instead.

I strongly (and respectfully) disagree with two things xanadu said.

I absolutely don't think you need prior programming experience. I had none. It's still tons of fun and accessible.

I also wouldn't recommend buying Reaktor instead until NI catches up in terms of help and reference files. Besides that factor (which I think is significant), the Live integration is huge.

To clarify: I don't mean to bad mouth NI or Reaktor. I also own and use their products. I think some of their stuff sounds amazing. But I do think that because of Max's documentation, it's currently much easier to learn, and also that the Live integration is a big big deal.

I strongly (and respectfully) disagree with two things xanadu said.  

I absolutely don't think you need prior programming experience.  I had none.  It's still tons of fun and accessible.

I also wouldn't recommend buying Reaktor instead until NI catches up in terms of help and reference files.  Besides that factor (which I think is significant), the Live integration is huge.

To clarify: I don't mean to bad mouth NI or Reaktor.  I also own and use their products.  I think some of their stuff sounds amazing.  But I do think that because of Max's documentation, it's currently much easier to learn, and also that the Live integration is a big big deal.


Let me clarify my opinions a bit. Perhaps we don't disagree very strongly ;-)

I don't think it's hard to do some basic automation with MFL. But in my honest opinion and experience it is hard to write an extensive device. That's no fault of MFL, a big project always needs some programming skills and carefull planning. For instance there are all kinds of timing issues. A device has to survive saving and restoring a Live song. Creating a good system for presets has been hard work for me. I've been learning for 8 months now and by no way am I considering myself a master yet.

I did not vote for Reaktor in favor of MFL. All I did was mention it to enable Wallflower to make his own choice. I do think Reaktor is more geared towards creating synthesizers and effects. I myself have licences for both programs. I haven't done anyhing serious with Reaktor (yet), but if I wanted to create a synth I would seriously consider to use it.

And yes, we agree that the Live integration is a big big deal.

mmmmm. mixed reactions about the programming aspect. I don't have history with programming unfortunately but i have gathered some alot of information from the internet like

not to mention the tutorials that will come with the product. Is experience with programming essential? Am i able to create devices yes?

mmmmm. mixed reactions about the programming aspect. I don't have history with programming unfortunately but i have gathered some alot of information from the internet like
: Peter Elsea tutorial
: Baz's tutorials on you tube
: Computer music by Charles Dodge
: various video tutorials online

not to mention the tutorials that will come with the product. Is experience with programming essential? Am i able to create devices yes?


See, I've been mostly working on creating various types of performance controllers, where storing and recalling settings is nearly a non-issue. So I haven't been running into that problem.

I do think he should make his own choice as well, but your first statement sounded to me like, "If you're going to build synths, use Reaktor." I think that while Reaktor might have some arguments in its favor, for someone with no experience, the cycling74 tutorials/reference/help file trifecta is their best bet. You can jump into Reaktor, certainly, but you can wade out to the deep waters of Max/MSP before you start swimming, if you know what I mean.

Now, I think the 5.5 release of Reaktor is supposed to include revised documentation. I didn't check the beta to see if it was included - it may be getting closer to Max's level. But I also think that being able to access the help files via the objects is a big big deal - having a better book is one thing but the integration is another.

See, I've been mostly working on creating various types of performance controllers, where storing and recalling settings is nearly a non-issue.  So I haven't been running into that problem.  

I do think he should make his own choice as well, but your first statement sounded to me like, "If you're going to build synths, use Reaktor."  I think that while Reaktor might have some arguments in its favor, for someone with no experience, the cycling74 tutorials/reference/help file trifecta is their best bet.  You can jump into Reaktor, certainly, but you can wade out to the deep waters of Max/MSP before you start swimming, if you know what I mean.  

Now, I think the 5.5 release of Reaktor is supposed to include revised documentation.  I didn't check the beta to see if it was included - it may be getting closer to Max's level.  But I also think that being able to access the help files via the objects is a big big deal - having a better book is one thing but the integration is another.


Reaktor has its own limitations, too. FFT is not as easily realized as the pfft~ object makes it in Max/MSP.

There is a greater, better organized user-library of synths/samplers/sequencers/algorithmic-programming-tools, etc. in the Reaktor community. Actually, i think it's the organization that is paramount to making it somewhat better of a resource for synth apps and learning.

The organization here on the forums makes it virtually impossible to find something self-contained(you have to search thread to thread to get a full answer and you have to search very hard to find a specific patch... even then, you might not find it if it has any special symbols in its name... very frustrating... people would learn Max alot faster if the info. here on the forums and even in the docs were organized better(somehow i think tutorials and docs should be further linked to the examples folder since that folder is where the real juicy info. is at)).

But still, nothing you couldn't do in Max/MSP.

You don't need programming experience(imho), but it couldn't hurt. Many people start their programming experience with Max/MSP(Reaktor is not as conducive to learning programming only because it's not as scriptable and also it's a very specific modular environment, whereas with Max, you can open yourself all the way to the lowest-level of programming your own externals in C(the corecell tech of Reaktor is not the same)). Either way you look at it, if you want the most out of Max/MSP, you'll want to be open to gaining programming experience as you go along. It's a great place to start.

Reaktor has its own limitations, too. FFT is not as easily realized as the pfft~ object makes it in Max/MSP.
There is a greater, better organized user-library of synths/samplers/sequencers/algorithmic-programming-tools, etc. in the Reaktor community. Actually, i think it's the organization that is paramount to making it somewhat better of a resource for synth apps and learning.
The organization here on the forums makes it virtually impossible to find something self-contained(you have to search thread to thread to get a full answer and you have to search very hard to find a specific patch... even then, you might not find it if it has any special symbols in its name... very frustrating... people would learn Max alot faster if the info. here on the forums and even in the docs were organized better(somehow i think tutorials and docs should be further linked to the examples folder since that folder is where the real juicy info. is at)).

some great replies here. I think my mind is made and M4L will be purchased tonight. :) for people just beginning is their any advice in terms of using my tutorials and book in order to achieve productive organised learning e.g. focus on the book first then the tutorials, look at the tutorials first, combine both but take one tutorial a day etc... because the tutorials are so in depth i wanna use them wisely as they seem so informative. Ive heard people talk about examples or patches that come in the tutorials. whats the best way to integrate them?

People have been so informative and im kinda overwhelmed,

People have been so informative and im kinda overwhelmed,
thanks again guys


start with tutorials, mainly because you'll be on the same page as everyone else here(start with max, go to msp, then do m4l... if you want some video, i'd read the jitter tutorials last, if it's your main thing, then maybe before the m4l one...). don't worry about absorbing everything all at once, just get the basic concepts and keep moving...

for the most part, you can start with patches you find in helpfiles and docs and modify them at first.

see here for more advanced examples: Max5/examples

others might have a different idea(maybe to start with M4L tutorials first), you could actually do it many different ways, but you'll always want to go back and read what you haven't already... so you might as well just have patience and read through all those tutorials mentioned.

if you get stuck or frustrated, post a patch here, you can learn pretty fast by doing that as well...

start with tutorials, mainly because you'll be on the same page as everyone else here(start with max, go to msp, then do m4l... if you want some video, i'd read the jitter tutorials last, if it's your main thing, then maybe before the m4l one...). don't worry about absorbing everything all at once, just get the basic concepts and keep moving...
for the most part, you can start with patches you find in helpfiles and docs and modify them at first.
see here for more advanced examples: Max5/examples

if you get stuck or frustrated, post a patch here, you can learn pretty fast by doing that as well...


Just start with the tutorials, and it will naturally mushroom out.

1) The print object is your best friend. Take it everywhere. If you're having problems with anything, start attaching print objects to things until you find the one that isn't spitting out the message you think it should be.

2) Once you get into M4L, the "Live Object Model" is your new best friend. (Don't break things off with "print", though. Just start seeing LOM on the side.)

Just start with the tutorials, and it will naturally mushroom out.  

1) The print object is your best friend.  Take it everywhere.  If you're having problems with anything, start attaching print objects to things until you find the one that isn't spitting out the message you think it should be.

2) Once you get into M4L, the "Live Object Model" is your new best friend.  (Don't break things off with "print", though.  Just start seeing LOM on the side.)


I know this may seem a bit of a noob question but will the max/msp 5 tutorials assist me in learning m4l. I ask this because i heard someone say their is a slight variation and was concerned i wont be able to use them in learning m4l

noob questions are often the best questions!

yes, the Max5 tutorials will help you enormously with M4L... M4L tutorials are not comprehensive enough(yet). You will definitely want to go through Max5 tutorials(what you do first is up to you...)

there are slight variations, but majority of info. covered in Max tutorials is still applicable(just differences in things like naming buffer~s, sends/receives, and getting i/o to/from your M4L device, plus the LiveObjectModel and M4L specific objects). this is why i suggest going through max5(at least the Max and MSP ones, if not also Jitter) tuts first, so that the variations are more clear when you go through M4L.

noob questions are often the best questions!
yes, the Max5 tutorials will help you enormously with M4L... M4L tutorials are not comprehensive enough(yet). You will definitely want to go through Max5 tutorials(what you do first is up to you...)

there are slight variations, but majority of info. covered in Max tutorials is still applicable(just differences in things like naming buffer~s, sends/receives, and getting i/o to/from your M4L device, plus the LiveObjectModel and M4L specific objects). this is why i suggest going through max5(at least the Max and MSP ones, if not also Jitter) tuts first, so that the variations are more clear when you go through M4L.


thanks noob4life will be buying tomorrow also have my zoomh2 on its way aswell so cant wait for that.

There are some differences when you start programming m4l patches yes, but it's the same "language". I would recommend just starting with the regular max/msp tutorials and forget about m4l for the time being. Once you master the basics, you'll quickly understand the major differences and get the m4l specific stuff from the m4l tutorials.

As to learning Max in general I would go for the basic tutorials first until you get a grip of how it's tied together and then try to think of a small "project". It's more fun trying to make something of your own than just reading tutorials and really just copying what others have done before you.

There are some differences when you start programming m4l patches yes, but it's the same "language". I would recommend just starting with the regular max/msp tutorials and forget about m4l for the time being. Once you master the basics, you'll quickly understand the major differences and get the m4l specific stuff from the m4l tutorials. 

As to learning Max in general I would go for the basic tutorials first until you get a grip of how it's tied together and then try to think of a small "project". It's more fun trying to make something of your own than just reading tutorials and really just copying what others have done before you.


i was with one of my friends today and i told him i was gonna pick up m4l and he recommended that i look at audiomulch. its looks like an excellent application and seems that you can quickly generate sounds. It made me think about the two applications and it seems that for making music in m4l it seems the process takes much longer than in audiomulch. am i wrong with this statement? i would like to make instruments but i also want to make music and not spend forever making patches while no music is being produced. can someone give me some advice on this issue as it is the final hurdle in blocking me from max for live.

the mileage will be less with any program that limits the depth with which you can customize things... audio-mulch allows you to route different modules to create your own instrument, but those modules are set to specific functions which you can't change readily(you can quickly sound like everyone else who uses AudioMulch... the same was actually true of Ableton before M4L came along... because working by 'clips' attracted so many of the same type of musicians, eventually Abletoners became a bit formulaic... we are all hoping that M4L will change this, so far, not so much...)

i think M4L is actually a bit more extendable(AudioMulch doesn't have OSC yet, it also seems you have to deal with their pre-made objects/modules, can't customize the sound as much beyond the interesting combinations you can find, it doesn't say anything about VST or rewire, and it doesn't say anything about communicating with other DAWs so you might be stuck using only AudioMulch for everything... whereas Ableton + M4L might be a better option if you want the fully featured DAW of Ableton plus the extra customization of M4L...)

hard to say... this is something you'll probably have to decide for yourself.

Btw, not to confuse further, but if you're looking for more affordable solutions, there's also Plogue Bidule:

the mileage will be less with any program that limits the depth with which you can customize things... audio-mulch allows you to route different modules to create your own instrument, but those modules are set to specific functions which you can't change readily(you can quickly sound like everyone else who uses AudioMulch... the same was actually true of Ableton before M4L came along... because working by 'clips' attracted so many of the same type of musicians, eventually Abletoners became a bit formulaic... we are all hoping that M4L will change this, so far, not so much...) 

Btw, not to confuse further, but if you're looking for more affordable solutions, there's also Plogue Bidule:
http://www.plogue.com/?page_id=56


yeah noob the lack of interaction with live and audiomulch is keeping me away from it. The reason why i posted that comment was im afraid i wont be creating music anymore with max4life if you know what i mean? i would class my self as more of a sound designer than a programmer and im scared max4life wont have any benefit. maybe im wrong noob? im really into experimental avant garde music so maybe for starters i could create small patches and because i can hear the sound in real-time i could possibly record that in live and manipulate it further. is that crazy? is it possible to create sound aswell as instruments and effects Basically i want to create sound and the combination of live and max offers endless possibilities but im just afraid me creating music will be the sacrifice of using max. do you have an opinion on this noob? i appreciate all your feedback man and to be honest im slightly embarrassed with asking such basic questions, its just that max4live looks so appealing but i dont wanna blow 250 on a product that will increase my programming skills but not my musician skills.

Well I mentioned Reaktor, Audiomulch came along and now Plogue Bidule pops up. Lets not forget KarmaFX, Tassman, Synthedit (not much action lately) and Synthmaker. They are all big boys Lego and Meccano kits. All of these toys will take study and practicing to make some decent sound.

If you want to make some music right from the start it takes some time planning, discipline and setting targets for yourself that are not too tough.

If Ableton Live is your primary DAW, only MFL will fit the bill to finetune your MIDI signals, automate all faders, knobs and other parameters. You can finetune the action of your MIDI and OSC controls in any detail you like. Live itself becomes an open application under your detailed control. None of the other packages integrates this close with Live!

And don't forget, Live with MFL has never ever yet crashed in my face, except when I created some buggy patch myself.

Well I mentioned Reaktor, Audiomulch came along and now Plogue Bidule pops up. Lets not forget KarmaFX, Tassman, Synthedit (not much action lately) and Synthmaker. They are all big boys Lego and Meccano kits. All of these toys will take study and practicing to make some decent sound. 

And don't forget, Live with MFL has never ever yet crashed in my face, except when I created some buggy patch myself.


i appreciate your feedback xanadu. im not afraid of the learning curve and patience required but im just a little concerned that my musical output will decline from using m4l in the sense no sounds will be created. live is my main daw by the way

It takes a good composer and musician(s) to make a good song. They will use whatever possibilities that are available. A top photographer can do more with my cellphone camera than I can do with the best Canon.

true but from the aspect of making music (sounds) can this be achieved.

hey, wallflower, to answer some of your questions:

"im afraid i wont be creating music anymore with max4life if you know what i mean?"

i know exactly what you mean because that was my fear when i began, but it isn't the reality. the truth is, whatever you choose, there'll be a learning curve and while you're submerged in that learning curve it is still up to you to keep making music. each person prioritizes differently... some people who are eager to make music and sounds will just start with examples/tutorial patches/etc. and then record whatever sound they come up with, then take it further within a DAW... others will not be satisfied with what they discover by chance and will go on and on trying to learn how to be more purposeful/deliberate... but either way, these decisions are all based on your personality, not the tools you choose(the tools only serve to further that personality and your general trajectory of decisions). if it is important for you to make music and sounds, you will make music and sounds at every stage of learning, it is very possible and can be achieved.

you'll probably, by your own virtue/personality, come up with music and sounds no matter what because it's exactly as you thought:

"maybe for starters i could create small patches and because i can hear the sound in real-time i could possibly record that in live and manipulate it further. is that crazy?"

haha, not crazy at all! that's exactly how many of us start out learning this stuff! (that's how i started, except I learned before M4L existed, so I took the sounds into DAWs like ProTools/Logic/Renoise...)

moreover, you will never stop learning(never should stop because there's always something you don't know yet), and if you know that to begin with, you'll realize that it is always imperative to keep making music as you're learning anything since BOTH endeavors are continual/eternal and should be a never-ending 'joy of process' rather than a 'fixation on end-product'.

I don't know if this is a quote or maybe i'm just making it up but I think it's true:

"the greatest knowledge you can hold is found in being aware of what you do not know yet."

Also, your musician skills will only be better informed by any of these tools mentioned(if you're using Live already, M4L is probably the best choice because of the integration in your favorite creative environment). So much about music is math, and Max(and similar environs) will only help you perceive that math in new and different ways thus expanding your musical skill and knowledge.

Basically, neither the creative process nor the learning process needs to take a back seat to the other at any time... they are both part of your life as an artist.

[EDIT: you also wrote, "to be honest im slightly embarrassed with asking such basic questions..."

don't worry about it, the way i see it, everyone in the world is a noob at something: i hear David Zicarelli(ceo of cycling74 and founding creator/decision-maker of this commercially-available version of Max and M4L) played jazz piano at some point, but i'm sure he will always be a noob pianist compared to my favorite: Thelonius Monk.

...similarly, since the destruction of pluggo, i can conclude that Cycling74 in general is somewhat a noob company at keeping business 'open-ended'....

doesn't mean i don't have respect for all these people in other areas...]

eventually, you just have to make the decision and dive in.

This is just how I perceive things... but hope it helps.

hey, wallflower, to answer some of your questions:
"im afraid i wont be creating music anymore with max4life if you know what i mean?"
i know exactly what you mean because that was my fear when i began, but it isn't the reality. the truth is, whatever you choose, there'll be a learning curve and while you're submerged in that learning curve it is still up to you to keep making music. each person prioritizes differently... some people who are eager to make music and sounds will just start with examples/tutorial patches/etc. and then record whatever sound they come up with, then take it further within a DAW... others will not be satisfied with what they discover by chance and will go on and on trying to learn how to be more purposeful/deliberate... but either way, these decisions are all based on your personality, not the tools you choose(the tools only serve to further that personality and your general trajectory of decisions). if it is important for you to make music and sounds, you will make music and sounds at every stage of learning, it is very possible and can be achieved.
you'll probably, by your own virtue/personality, come up with music and sounds no matter what because it's exactly as you thought:
"maybe for starters i could create small patches and because i can hear the sound in real-time i could possibly record that in live and manipulate it further. is that crazy?"
haha, not crazy at all! that's exactly how many of us start out learning this stuff! (that's how i started, except I learned before M4L existed, so I took the sounds into DAWs like ProTools/Logic/Renoise...)
moreover, you will never stop learning(never should stop because there's always something you don't know yet), and if you know that to begin with, you'll realize that it is always imperative to keep making music as you're learning anything since BOTH endeavors are continual/eternal and should be a never-ending 'joy of process' rather than a 'fixation on end-product'.
I don't know if this is a quote or maybe i'm just making it up but I think it's true:
"the greatest knowledge you can hold is found in being aware of what you do not know yet."

Also, your musician skills will only be better informed by any of these tools mentioned(if you're using Live already, M4L is probably the best choice because of the integration in your favorite creative environment). So much about music is math, and Max(and similar environs) will only help you perceive that math in new and different ways thus expanding your musical skill and knowledge.
Basically, neither the creative process nor the learning process needs to take a back seat to the other at any time... they are both part of your life as an artist.

[EDIT: you also wrote, "to be honest im slightly embarrassed with asking such basic questions..."
don't worry about it, the way i see it, everyone in the world is a noob at something: i hear David Zicarelli(ceo of cycling74 and founding creator/decision-maker of this commercially-available version of Max and M4L) played jazz piano at some point, but i'm sure he will always be a noob pianist compared to my favorite: Thelonius Monk.
...similarly, since the destruction of pluggo, i can conclude that Cycling74 in general is somewhat a noob company at keeping business 'open-ended'....
doesn't mean i don't have respect for all these people in other areas...]

This is just how I perceive things... but hope it helps.


noob because of this reply i purchased m4l last night. You cleared any remaining doubts I had. Cannot thank you enough. :)

No problem, glad to hear it helped. Congrats and Welcome!

Welcome to the club! At least you didn't buy 'a cat in the sac' as we say in Holland!

before diving in