Carlo

I'm about to buy a brand new laptop to use for Live Electronics performances with Max Msp (with my own heavy patches..), but I don't know what could be the best choice (essentially, Mac or Pc?).

During this year I've been having some problems while running some complex Max-Msp patches on my windowsXP SP2 AMD 3200+ based desktop PC (Asus A8N Sli Deluxe, 1Gb ram dual channel, 7200 rpm seagate HD, Asus GeForce 6600 GT VGA) and on some other PC notebooks, while they have been running flawlessly on a (borrowed) Powerbook G4 1,67 Ghz (OSX Tiger, 1Gb ram 100 Gb HD 5400 rpm etc..). 

I am now confused about what to buy: a new MacBookPro or a PC Notebook with similar harware features (for example, a top quality Sony Vaio)?

It's not a matter of money: I can afford a MacBook Pro 17" as well as a top-of-the-range Sony Vaio.

My Audio interface is an RME Fireface 800 (firewire 400 or 800 port available).

Dear all,
I'm about to buy a brand new laptop to use for Live Electronics performances with Max Msp (with my own heavy patches..), but I don't know what could be the best choice (essentially, Mac or Pc?).
During this year I've been having some problems while running some complex Max-Msp patches on my windowsXP SP2 AMD 3200+ based desktop PC (Asus A8N Sli Deluxe, 1Gb ram dual channel, 7200 rpm seagate HD, Asus GeForce 6600 GT VGA) and on some other PC notebooks, while they have been running flawlessly on a (borrowed) Powerbook G4 1,67 Ghz (OSX Tiger, 1Gb ram 100 Gb HD 5400 rpm etc..). 
I am now confused about what to buy: a new MacBookPro or a PC Notebook with similar harware features (for example, a top quality Sony Vaio)?
Please, could you make some suggestion? 
It's not a matter of money: I can afford a MacBook Pro 17" as well as a top-of-the-range Sony Vaio.

P.S.
My Audio interface is an RME Fireface 800 (firewire 400 or 800 port available).


best-notebook-for-live-performance-with-max

On 28 Nov 2006, at 18:13, Carlo Laurenzi wrote:

> During this year I've been having some problems while running some 

> complex Max-Msp patches on my windowsXP SP2 AMD 3200+ based desktop 

> PC while they have been running flawlessly on a (borrowed) 

> Powerbook G4 1,67 Ghz (OSX Tiger, 1Gb ram 100 Gb HD 5400 rpm etc..).

I think that answers the question, doesn't it?

I'm obviously biased, as I've been a mac user for years. But I've 

also simultaneously owned a P3 Vaio, and it was a pig. I got tired of 

waiting for it to boot up in the end. From what I've read, until 

recently there was a considerable speed advantage on WinTel laptops, 

but I'm not sure if that's still the case now the new MacBook Pros 

are out. And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with 

your Fireface on the Mac. And you can always boot into Windows using 

BootCamp on the mac if you really need to.

I'm sure someone will post the opposite point of view!

>
> During this year I've been having some problems while running some  
> complex Max-Msp patches on my windowsXP SP2 AMD 3200+ based desktop  
> PC  while they have been running flawlessly on a (borrowed)  
> Powerbook G4 1,67 Ghz (OSX Tiger, 1Gb ram 100 Gb HD 5400 rpm etc..).

I'm obviously biased, as I've been a mac user for years. But I've  
also simultaneously owned a P3 Vaio, and it was a pig. I got tired of  
waiting for it to boot up in the end. From what I've read, until  
recently there was a considerable speed advantage on WinTel laptops,  
but I'm not sure if that's still the case now the new MacBook Pros  
are out. And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with  
your Fireface on the Mac. And you can always boot into Windows using  
BootCamp on the mac if you really need to.

> And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your 

By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm having 

slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. It won't 

boot up when being bus-powered. Once powered up with external power, it 

runs on firewire only, though. Haven't had the time to contact RME 

> And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your 
> Fireface on the Mac. 
By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm having 
slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. It won't 
boot up when being bus-powered. Once powered up with external power, it 
runs on firewire only, though. Haven't had the time to contact RME 
whether this can be fixed.

if i were you i'd totaly go with a commodore 64

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64

just check out the specs!!! it's a power horse :)

if i were you i'd totaly go with a commodore 64
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64

On 28 Nov 2006, at 19:40, Thomas Grill wrote:

>> And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your 

> By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm 

> having slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. 

> It won't boot up when being bus-powered.

I think I've seen this mentioned here and perhaps on other lists in 

relation to at least one other Firewire interface and the MacBook 

range - they won't work on bus power, but are ok if you use the power 

>
>> And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your  
>> Fireface on the Mac.
> By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm  
> having slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface.  
> It won't boot up when being bus-powered.

I think I've seen this mentioned here and perhaps on other lists in  
relation to at least one other Firewire interface and the MacBook  
range - they won't work on bus power, but are ok if you use the power  
supply.

>>And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your 

>By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm 

>having slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. 

>It won't boot up when being bus-powered. Once powered up with 

>external power, it runs on firewire only, though. Haven't had the 

>time to contact RME whether this can be fixed.

they told me than (as far as 400 are concerned):

On the Macbook, there is not enough power. It will work with the Macbook

Pro and a brand new FF400 with slightly reduced power requirements.

Serial numbers from 22582670 have reduced requirements.

>>And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your 
>>Fireface on the Mac.
>By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm 
>having slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. 
>It won't boot up when being bus-powered. Once powered up with 
>external power, it runs on firewire only, though. Haven't had the 
>time to contact RME whether this can be fixed.

On the Macbook, there is not enough power. It will work with the Macbook
Pro and a brand new FF400 with slightly reduced power requirements.

-- 
  Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer
http://www.sleazeArt.com


> On 28 Nov 2006, at 19:40, Thomas Grill wrote:

>>> And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your 

>> By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm 

>> having slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. It 

> I think I've seen this mentioned here and perhaps on other lists in 

> relation to at least one other Firewire interface and the MacBook 

> range - they won't work on bus power, but are ok if you use the power 

This is because the new macs aren't powering the Firewire port properly. 

But then again, they just work ;-) This is one of the reasons I haven't 

.switched - I guess I am not the kind of person who would consider these 

shortcomings "slight problems". Still, definitely the prettiest laptops 

out there, and every bit as powerful as a top-of-the-line pc - they're 

Oh, and don't buy a Sony Vaio. Every owner I know has been burned by 

David Stevens skrev:
>
> On 28 Nov 2006, at 19:40, Thomas Grill wrote:
>
>>
>>> And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your 
>>> Fireface on the Mac.
>> By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm 
>> having slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. It 
>> won't boot up when being bus-powered.
>
> I think I've seen this mentioned here and perhaps on other lists in 
> relation to at least one other Firewire interface and the MacBook 
> range - they won't work on bus power, but are ok if you use the power 
> supply.
This is because the new macs aren't powering the Firewire port properly. 
But then again, they just work ;-) This is one of the reasons I haven't 
.switched - I guess I am not the kind of person who would consider these 
shortcomings "slight problems". Still, definitely the prettiest laptops 
out there, and every bit as powerful as a top-of-the-line pc - they're 
practically identical these days.

Oh, and don't buy a Sony Vaio. Every owner I know has been burned by 
them, one way or another.

On 28 Nov 2006, at 21:23, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:

> This is because the new macs aren't powering the Firewire port 

Hmm. On the other hand, I've never really trusted bus-powered 

Firewire (and in any case, it all became rather academic when my 

TiBook blew up its built-in port, forcing me to use a PCMCIA adaptor 

which doesn't provide bus power at all). So I'd only buy Firewire 

devices which had external power as an option.

As mentioned, you can always Bootcamp a MacBook and run Windows on it.

I'd also avoid Vaios; the hardware tends to be heavily proprietary 

and to require customised Windows setups (according to some blogging 

I came across a few days ago). If you are seriously thinking about a 

(Planning to go and buy a MacBook Pro this week, and then see exactly 

how many PowerPC externals my Max world depends on...)

nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- 

> This is because the new macs aren't powering the Firewire port  
> properly.

Hmm. On the other hand, I've never really trusted bus-powered  
Firewire (and in any case, it all became rather academic when my  
TiBook blew up its built-in port, forcing me to use a PCMCIA adaptor  
which doesn't provide bus power at all). So I'd only buy Firewire  
devices which had external power as an option.

I'd also avoid Vaios; the hardware tends to be heavily proprietary  
and to require customised Windows setups (according to some blogging  
I came across a few days ago). If you are seriously thinking about a  
PC laptop for audio, look to Alienware.

(Planning to go and buy a MacBook Pro this week, and then see exactly  
how many PowerPC externals my Max world depends on...)

   nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http:// 
www.cassiel.com


I would like to send you all my apologies as I realized I forgot to send you a

copy of my track "Ghost Phantom". Indeed, I discovered that the mail with the

I will post it tomorrow, hoping that your address did not change during this

Also, I bought a Fireface 400 recently. I need a working laptop and did some

maxmsp tests with this sound card and a few computers (it's very difficult to

find serious information on laptop choice so I prefered trying by myself). With

a black Macbook (first generation with the Core "1" Duo processor), the computer

booted up correctly when the card was bus-powered. I haven't tried with a

Macbook Pro though ... Are you getting good low latency performance with it btw

> By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm having

> slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. It won't

> boot up when being bus-powered. Once powered up with external power, it

> runs on firewire only, though. Haven't had the time to contact RME

I would like to send you all my apologies as I realized I forgot to send you a
copy of my track "Ghost Phantom". Indeed, I discovered that the mail with the
CD is still here in my papers !
I will post it tomorrow, hoping that your address did not change during this
time (Barichgasse 21/18, 1030 Wien).

Also, I bought a Fireface 400 recently. I need a working laptop and did some
maxmsp tests with this sound card and a few computers (it's very difficult to
find serious information on laptop choice so I prefered trying by myself). With
a black Macbook (first generation with the Core "1" Duo processor), the computer
booted up correctly when the card was bus-powered. I haven't tried with a
Macbook Pro though ... Are you getting good low latency performance with it btw
?

> By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm having
> slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. It won't
> boot up when being bus-powered. Once powered up with external power, it
> runs on firewire only, though. Haven't had the time to contact RME
> whether this can be fixed.
>
> greetings,
> Thomas


Interesting. How does this effect other devices like the DFG-1394, or 

any other bus powered FW devices? Does that specific interface draw 

more power than others? This is the first ive heard of this specific 

I know Apple has switched to Intel firewire chipsets, but id imagine 

On Nov 28, 2006, at 3:35 PM, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:

>> having slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface. 

>> It won't boot up when being bus-powered. Once powered up with 

>> external power, it runs on firewire only, though. Haven't had the 

>> time to contact RME whether this can be fixed.

> they told me than (as far as 400 are concerned):

> On the Macbook, there is not enough power. It will work with the 

> Pro and a brand new FF400 with slightly reduced power requirements.

> Serial numbers from 22582670 have reduced requirements.

Interesting. How does this effect other devices like the DFG-1394, or  
any other bus powered FW devices? Does that specific interface draw  
more power than others? This is the first ive heard of  this specific  
issue.

I know Apple has switched to Intel firewire chipsets, but id imagine  
they'd be properly supported.

>>> And macs "just work". And there should be no problems with your  
>>> Fireface on the Mac.
>> By the way, i own a Fireface and a MacbookPro (Core2Duo), and i'm  
>> having slight problems with bus-powered operation of the Fireface.  
>> It won't boot up when being bus-powered. Once powered up with  
>> external power, it runs on firewire only, though. Haven't had the  
>> time to contact RME whether this can be fixed.
>
>
> fireface 800 or 400??
>
> they told me than (as far as 400 are concerned):
>
> On the Macbook, there is not enough power. It will work with the  
> Macbook
> Pro and a brand new FF400 with slightly reduced power requirements.
>
> __when i asked what "brand new" is:
>
> Serial numbers from 22582670 have reduced requirements.
>
> best
>
> kasper
>
> -- 
>  Kasper T. Toeplitz
> noise, composition, bass, computer
> http://www.sleazeArt.com
>
>


Please ignore my previous mail as I intended to send it to Thomas Grill only !

(a stupid "reply to all" instead of "reply to" error !!!)

Please ignore my previous mail as I intended to send it to Thomas Grill only !
(a stupid "reply to all" instead of "reply to" error !!!)

Based on my experience using intel, amd, and powerpc I now think generically.... I would say in list of priority this is how you should spend your money..

Based on my experience using intel, amd, and powerpc I now think generically.... I would say in list of priority this is how you should spend your money..
1.)Dual Core
2.)Cache size(over 1Mb makes a big diff)
3.)Clock Speed
4.)memory


Are you saying you had a PC noteboook before and you weren't happy about it?

As regards Sony Vaios I had some experiences with some of them during the 

past eight months and they always worked very good with Max Msp and my 

Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:11 PM

Subject: Re: [maxmsp] Best Notebook for live performance with Max?

> On 28 Nov 2006, at 21:23, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:

>> This is because the new macs aren't powering the Firewire port properly.

> Hmm. On the other hand, I've never really trusted bus-powered Firewire 

> (and in any case, it all became rather academic when my TiBook blew up 

> its built-in port, forcing me to use a PCMCIA adaptor which doesn't 

> provide bus power at all). So I'd only buy Firewire devices which had 

> As mentioned, you can always Bootcamp a MacBook and run Windows on it.

> I'd also avoid Vaios; the hardware tends to be heavily proprietary and to 

> require customised Windows setups (according to some blogging I came 

> across a few days ago). If you are seriously thinking about a PC laptop 

> (Planning to go and buy a MacBook Pro this week, and then see exactly how 

> many PowerPC externals my Max world depends on...)

> nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- 

Thanks for your answer.
Are you saying you had a PC noteboook before and you weren't happy about it?
I will check out Alienware Pcs.
As regards Sony Vaios I had some experiences with some of them during the 
past eight months and they always worked very good with Max Msp and my 
Fireface 800.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Rothwell" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [maxmsp] Best Notebook for live performance with Max?

>
> On 28 Nov 2006, at 21:23, Andreas Wetterberg wrote:
>
>> This is because the new macs aren't powering the Firewire port  properly.
>
> Hmm. On the other hand, I've never really trusted bus-powered  Firewire 
> (and in any case, it all became rather academic when my  TiBook blew up 
> its built-in port, forcing me to use a PCMCIA adaptor  which doesn't 
> provide bus power at all). So I'd only buy Firewire  devices which had 
> external power as an option.
>
> As mentioned, you can always Bootcamp a MacBook and run Windows on it.
>
> I'd also avoid Vaios; the hardware tends to be heavily proprietary  and to 
> require customised Windows setups (according to some blogging  I came 
> across a few days ago). If you are seriously thinking about a  PC laptop 
> for audio, look to Alienware.
>
> -- N.
>
> (Planning to go and buy a MacBook Pro this week, and then see exactly  how 
> many PowerPC externals my Max world depends on...)
>
>
>   nick rothwell -- composition, systems, performance -- http:// 
> www.cassiel.com
>
>
>


Hi, how much do you know about this new Intel firewire chipsets Apple has been using on MacBook Pros?

Do they present any differences from the previous ones? 

How about their performance with Max in real time, compared to a similar-hardware equipped PC?

As regards RME Fireface 400, I'm quite sure that it requires more power than other bus-powered units: Firefaces are quite special pieces of gear, damn powerful units.

Anyway, I know of some people using M-Audio bus-powered units which must be turned on before starting their Apple notebooks, to be recognized by OSX.

Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:23 AM

Interesting. How does this effect other devices like the DFG-1394, or any other bus powered FW devices? Does that specific interface draw more power than others? This is the first ive heard of this specific issue.

I know Apple has switched to Intel firewire chipsets, but id imagine they'd be properly supported.

Hi, how much do you know about this new Intel firewire chipsets Apple has been using on MacBook Pros?
Do they present any differences from the previous ones?  
How about their performance with Max in real time, compared to a similar-hardware equipped PC?
Thank you

P.S.
As regards RME Fireface 400, I'm quite sure that it requires more power than other bus-powered units: Firefaces are quite special pieces of gear, damn powerful units.
Anyway, I know of some people using M-Audio bus-powered units which must be turned on before starting their Apple notebooks, to be recognized by OSX.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: vade 
  To: maxmsp@cycling74.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [maxmsp] Best Notebook for live performance with Max?

  Interesting. How does this effect other devices like the DFG-1394, or any other bus powered FW devices? Does that specific interface draw more power than others? This is the first ive heard of  this specific issue.

  I know Apple has switched to Intel firewire chipsets, but id imagine they'd be properly supported.

> But everything becomes more stable, since the other core is taking 

> care of the rest of the operating system.

Do you mean "more stable" or do you mean "more responsive"? What kind 

> Also in live situation I sometimes use another patch compiled as an 

> application or collective, which then automatically uses the other 

> core, effectively giving me double the power of my previous g4 PPC 

> mac, even though the two patches must be run separately.

Two cores is not going to deliver 2 x performance, since there's only 

one memory. (Not being a hardware export, I don't know offhand how 

> But everything becomes more stable, since the other core is taking  
> care of the rest of the operating system.

Do you mean "more stable" or do you mean "more responsive"? What kind  
of instabilities go away?

> Also in live situation I sometimes use another patch compiled as an  
> application or collective, which then automatically uses the other  
> core, effectively giving me double the power of my previous g4 PPC  
> mac, even though the two patches must be run separately.

Two cores is not going to deliver 2 x performance, since there's only  
one memory. (Not being a hardware export, I don't know offhand how  
smart the various processor caches are.)

On 30-Nov-2006, at 13:22, Carlo Laurenzi wrote:

> how do you know for sure that Max uses only one core when running a 

> patch, while the second core is only used when a Max collective or 

This has been documented on the list extensively.

Peter Castine +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter

Interface Building for |home | chez nous|

Max/MSP Extremely cool |bei uns | i nostri|

On 30-Nov-2006, at 13:22, Carlo Laurenzi wrote:
> how do you know for sure that Max uses only one core when running a  
> patch, while the second core is only used when a Max collective or  
> application are launched?

--------------    http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/    -------------
Peter Castine             +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
                                Universal Binaries on the way
iCE:  Sequencing,  Recording &
       Interface  Building  for                   |home    | chez nous|
       Max/MSP   Extremely cool                   |bei uns |  i nostri|
       http://www.dspaudio.com/                   http://www.castine.de

Am 03.12.2006 um 00:37 schrieb Espen E. Sommer:

I also got my laptop for live performances. It's a Core2duo t7200(2ghz) PC with a gig of ram and a 7200rpm hd. I used to have a desktop with an athlon xp 2000 CPU in it.

I've gone dual core, all my audio software were boosted to some degree but I don't see much of an performance gain in max msp at all... This is rather annoying because I was thinking that Max/MSP scheduler was going to take advantage of my duo cores...

I have not tried but running suitable patches inside Cubase(with pluggo) might double the performance as that sequencer takes full advantage of multiple CPU's.

Thinking about NI Reaktor, It also does not take the advantage of multiple cpus in standalone mode, but when loaded within cubase, the processor load goes halfway down. So If you have an instrument eating 20% CPU, load it into cubase and it drops to 10%.

I think other VST hosts taking advantage of this stuff would behave in the same way too.

Yes, a Macbook - still waiting for the MacBook Pro to offer something 

Vade: I guess for video work the improvement might be larger due to 

an improved video card in the macbook pro compared to the powerbook, no?

Den 3. des. 2006 kl. 02.54 skrev Jeremy Bernstein:

> Am 03.12.2006 um 00:37 schrieb Espen E. Sommer:

Yes, a Macbook - still waiting for the MacBook Pro to offer something  
more to justifly the higher price.

Vade: I guess for video work the improvement might be larger due to  
an improved video card in the macbook pro compared to the powerbook, no?

> This is MacBook, not MacBook Pro, yes?
>
> jb
>
> Am 03.12.2006 um 00:37 schrieb Espen E. Sommer:
>
>> Macbook coreduo 2ghz
>
