Rodrigo

Adam Schabtach of Audio Damage is calling for a boycott of iLok/PACE

I personally hate software that uses Challenge/Response systems, and

generally avoid them, with max being the only software I own that uses it.

Logic recently dropped its dongle protection, making it a much more

I haven't seen any discussion on this on the list at all, so I figured it

might be worth bringing up, with a new max coming out.

I'd love to see the new max using a not so invasive CP scheme, but I know it

I'm curious what other max users think of the whole thing.

Adam Schabtach of Audio Damage is calling for a boycott of iLok/PACE
products.

Read More here:
http://www.createdigitalmusic.com/

I personally hate software that uses Challenge/Response systems, and
generally avoid them, with max being the only software I own that uses it.

Logic recently dropped its dongle protection, making it a much more
attractive 'pro' level DAW.

I haven't seen any discussion on this on the list at all, so I figured it
might be worth bringing up, with a new max coming out.

I'd love to see the new max using a not so invasive CP scheme, but I know it
will likely be the same.

boycott-ilok-and-pace

Sorry, here is the full version of the article (not just a blurb from it):

http://studionebula.com/blog/2007/12/02/why-i-boycott-products-that-use-paceilok-and-why-you-should-too

I don't like dongles. I used to have a string of 4 on my old 8100/100 mac.

But I like not having a license locked down to one machine.

I could see larger studios with many employees wanting a license server with floating licenses (flexLM), but for a one man setup, I like my pace.

No pace/max locked into one machine vs. Pace w/ Max wherever I install Max

I don't like dongles.  I used to have a string of 4 on my old 8100/100 mac.
But I like not having a license locked down to one machine.
I could see larger studios with many employees wanting a license server with floating licenses (flexLM), but for a one man setup, I like my pace.

I honestly don't see the benefit of the iLok system, unless they workout the

software itself being installed on the ilok (like those new fangled USB

drives that take programs/settings with you). Now that would be cool, and a

worthwhile investment, if you could literally take the

program/license/settings with you onto any machine you use.

Where are these fully installed, license free computers that everyone moves

You can have it installed on 2 computers via C/R. Schools/studios would,

hopefully, have fully licensed versions. So where else would you need to use

it, that you couldn't legitimately have it installed (without needing an

This isn't a flame, I'm just curious as to the practical benefit of the

Also, theres the much easier choice of having a regular old serial #

authorization system. Everyone's a winner there, since theres no overhead

for the outsourced copy protection, its easy/painless to install/reinstall,

and those who wouldn't buy it aren't affected since they used the cracked

> I don't like dongles. I used to have a string of 4 on my old 8100/100

> But I like not having a license locked down to one machine.

> I could see larger studios with many employees wanting a license server

> with floating licenses (flexLM), but for a one man setup, I like my pace.

> No pace/max locked into one machine vs. Pace w/ Max wherever I install Max

I honestly don't see the benefit of the iLok system, unless they workout the
software itself being installed on the ilok (like those new fangled USB
drives that take programs/settings with you). Now that would be cool, and a
worthwhile investment, if you could literally take the
program/license/settings with you onto any machine you use.

Where are these fully installed, license free computers that everyone moves
their iloks back and forth from?

You can have it installed on 2 computers via C/R. Schools/studios would,
hopefully, have fully licensed versions. So where else would you need to use
it, that you couldn't legitimately have it installed (without needing an
ilok).

This isn't a flame, I'm just curious as to the practical benefit of the
ilok.

Also, theres the much easier choice of having a regular old serial #
authorization system. Everyone's a winner there, since theres no overhead
for the outsourced copy protection, its easy/painless to install/reinstall,
and those who wouldn't buy it aren't affected since they used the cracked
version already anyways.

>
> I don't like dongles.  I used to have a string of 4 on my old 8100/100
> mac.
> But I like not having a license locked down to one machine.
> I could see larger studios with many employees wanting a license server
> with floating licenses (flexLM), but for a one man setup, I like my pace.
>
> No pace/max locked into one machine vs. Pace w/ Max wherever I install Max
>
> I choose the latter.
> --
> -DonK
>

I've found the iLok to be handy on a number of occasions where I 

might be doing a visiting artist residency or guest lecture. I don't 

need to bring my computer, just my patches & related files on a 

flashdrive and my iLok. When I get there, I download and install 

MaxMSP on whatever computer they have for me to use, and I'm in 

I've found the iLok to be handy on a number of occasions where I  
might be doing a visiting artist residency or guest lecture. I don't  
need to bring my computer, just my patches & related files on a  
flashdrive and my iLok. When I get there, I download and install  
MaxMSP on whatever computer they have for me to use, and I'm in  
business.

Home 
SFIFEM 
Atrium Sound Space 
OVOS 
CMP 

I have an iLok. Its a love hate relationship, but its handy - if you 

do work with multiple machines, you can download max, and its just 

licensed. I can work anywhere, on any computer, say for performance 

works, or at home I have multiple machines, and i can move my dongle 

Also, you don't have to keep the dongle plugged in, launch Max with 

dongle, removed, keep working, or plug dongle in to second machine and 

launch max there, and you have 2 licensed systems.

I predominantly use it to make last minute changes on systems where I 

expect to use the run time, but may need to revise something I had 

Besides occasionally forgetting it (which is a ROYAL FUCKING PAIN IN 

THE ASS when it happens), its ben more of a benefit that I had expected.

I have an iLok. Its a love hate relationship, but its handy - if you  
do work with multiple machines, you can download max, and its just  
licensed. I can work anywhere, on any computer, say for performance  
works, or at home I have multiple machines, and i can move my dongle  
around.

Also, you don't have to keep the dongle plugged in, launch Max with  
dongle, removed, keep working, or plug dongle in to second machine and  
launch max there, and you have 2 licensed systems.

I predominantly use it to make last minute changes on systems where I  
expect to use the run time, but may need to revise something I had  
over looked last minute.

Besides occasionally forgetting it (which is a ROYAL FUCKING PAIN IN  
THE ASS when it happens), its ben more of a benefit that I had expected.


I hope posts like those maybe help the cycling74 when choosing copy protection for future version?

I have had bad experiences with Pace in the past. Having it forget my authorizations especially if you install multiple products that utilize it.

I have had bad experiences with Pace in the past.  Having it forget my authorizations especially if you install multiple products that utilize it.


Quote: rodrigo.constanzo wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 05:34

----------------------------------------------------

> I'm curious what other max users think of the whole thing.

I absolutely despise anti-piracy. And I refuse to use dongles. If Max didn't have PACE I would not be using it.

I'm a software developer, and I've been forced to drop cool features many times because higher ups demanded we improve anti-piracy measures over perceived loss of revenue due to theft of our software. And you know what? People are still stealing our software. It's just like the arms race with DRM and DVD encryption. Really smart people spend YEARS designing the next "uncrackable" system, and it just gets cracked in a few days. Every time! What a horrible waste of money and effort.

I might have enough know-how to crack Max if I wanted to. But you know what? I really like the software and I want to pay money to Cycling '74 to support the continued development of Max/MSP. The world will always be filled with people like me who get value out of digital goods and pay money for them, and the world will always be filled with people who steal digital goods no matter how many protective measures are put in place. Ultimately, anti-piracy measures end up getting in the way of the people who are paying for the software and making their life more of a hassle, which is truly a shame.

Plus there's the fact that there were problems with PACE after one of the OS X upgrades, and Cycling engineers had to take time away from working on cool features to fix that. Again, I think this is a waste.

So I would like Max better if they dropped iLok/PACE in favor of a simpler anti-piracy measure ("keep the honest people honest"), and spent the saved resources on feature development. Just my two cents, having been on both sides of this fight.

Quote: rodrigo.constanzo wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 05:34
----------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm curious what other max users think of the whole thing.
>

Plus there's the fact that there were problems with PACE after one of the OS X upgrades, and Cycling engineers had to take time away from working on cool features to fix that. Again, I think this is a waste. 

In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed, it says:

https://cycling74.com/story/2007/9/28/105551/882

5. The installation and authorization experience is vastly improved.

Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton.

In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed, it says:
https://cycling74.com/story/2007/9/28/105551/882

Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton.


I see lot of people who don't like iLok - I understund yours 

positions, but I would like to tel you the other opinion about iLok

For us the iLok is real the best solution for musical software and we 

would like to have all software we have with iLok!

We have lot of computers mac and PC and we buy regulary a new 

computers. The iLok permit to have one software totaly independant 

from hardware and it's extremly important for us.

When I develop the software Max/MSP - and i have test it - what other 

solution? Ok i can instal a demo version - but after 1 months it's 

finished.... when I return to test it after 2 month have I buy a new 

We buy a new computers - have we buy every time a new licence for 

software? there are 2 licence with C/R but what's after? Personaly I 

am using every year about 2 new ot differents computer for developing 

and testing - have we buy every year a new licence?

When we buy a software we would like to put it where we need and 

change the place when we buy another computer. We have lot of 

software and change all for another computer with C/R is absolutly 

You can't immagine the number of problems we had before iLok with 

installation, we spent out time to explain that we have a new 

computer and the composers could not work during this time..... (I 

spent personaly a months with e-mail and phone!!!)

new version of Logic has not a dongle..... for us is totaly crazy, 

why we have buy a Logic for 4 computers if we use onlu ONE software 

with one dongle and we dont's need to use it on 4 computers in same 

The iLock is real the best solution for us and i hope only that 

cycling will read this email in the same time like the others and to 

think about the problems for the studios with more than two 

I see lot of people who don't like iLok - I understund yours  
positions, but I would like to tel you the other opinion about iLok

For us the iLok is real the best solution for musical software and we  
would like to have all software we have with iLok!

We have lot of computers mac and PC and we buy regulary a new  
computers. The iLok permit  to have one software totaly independant  
from hardware and it's extremly important for us.

When I develop the software Max/MSP - and i have test it - what other  
solution? Ok i can instal a demo version - but after 1 months it's  
finished.... when I return to test it after 2 month have I buy a new  
licence only for test?

We buy a new computers - have we buy every time a new licence for  
software? there are 2 licence with C/R but what's after? Personaly I  
am using every year about 2 new ot differents computer for developing  
and testing - have we buy every year a new licence?

When we buy a software we would like to put it where we need and  
change the place when we buy another computer. We have lot of  
software and change all for another computer with C/R is absolutly  
crazy and after two changes impossible!

You can't immagine the number of problems we had before iLok with  
installation, we spent out time to explain that we have a new  
computer and the composers could not work during this time..... (I  
spent personaly a months with e-mail and phone!!!)

new version of Logic has not a dongle..... for us is totaly crazy,  
why we have buy a Logic for 4 computers if we use onlu ONE software  
with one dongle and we dont's need to use it on 4 computers in same  
time?

The iLock is real the best solution for us and i hope only that  
cycling will read this email in the same time like the others and to  
think about the problems for the studios with more than two  
computers..............

I remember reading that, but didn't consider it much, as it doesn't say who

Presumably the end user, but any challenge response system still a pita for

the end user, with software/hardware changes needing reauthorization. And if

some day in the future c74 goes under, who's going to issue the responses

then? Sure there can be 'universal' responses given, but theres no guarantee

of that. That, and C/R systems only make it harder for legit costumers to

Hopefully it will be a simple serial authorization.

My gripe with this is more a philosophical one than a practical one. I feel

that we're on the cusp of a big change in the way technology and media

rights are handled. I would like to see c74 (and my money) go with a more

progressive approach. (As apposed to Waves, and the RIAA etc..)

With the iLok thing. I know it's been mentioned that you can boot up with

it, then remove it. Does this violate the EULA? Like, can you run a computer

lab at a school but booting them all up with the same license in the morning

It seems to me that if you have more than 2 computers your using max on, you

For testing patches/setups, theres the run-time version, and you can get

issued new responses until you(and c74) are blue in the face, if you keep

buying new computers, or format your disk, although it would come with a

> In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed,

> 5. The installation and authorization experience is vastly improved.

> Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be

> great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton.

I remember reading that, but didn't consider it much, as it doesn't say who
it's vastly improved for.

Presumably the end user, but any challenge response system still a pita for
the end user, with software/hardware changes needing reauthorization. And if
some day in the future c74 goes under, who's going to issue the responses
then? Sure there can be 'universal' responses given, but theres no guarantee
of that. That, and C/R systems only make it harder for legit costumers to
use the software.

My gripe with this is more a philosophical one than a practical one. I feel
that we're on the cusp of a big change in the way technology and media
rights are handled. I would like to see c74 (and my money) go with a more
progressive approach. (As apposed to Waves, and the RIAA etc..)

With the iLok thing. I know it's been mentioned that you can boot up with
it, then remove it. Does this violate the EULA? Like, can you run a computer
lab at a school but booting them all up with the same license in the morning
and be done with it?

It seems to me that if you have more than 2 computers your using max on, you
should own more than one license?

For testing patches/setups, theres the run-time version, and you can get
issued new responses until you(and c74) are blue in the face, if you keep
buying new computers, or format your disk, although it would come with a
great deal of suspicion.

>
> In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed,
> it says:
> https://cycling74.com/story/2007/9/28/105551/882
>
>
> 5. The installation and authorization experience is vastly improved.
>
> Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be
> great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton.
>

I've almost finished a big patch completely based on joystick 

Today I open the patch and max is not seeing hi as an object. The 

But the object is still there in its folder....

No idea. What can be happened ? Any update i can have done.. ? Max is 

still the same.. haven't touched anything about it..

I've almost finished a big patch completely based on joystick  
controlling, using the "hi" obj.
Today I open the patch and max is not seeing hi as an object. The  
error i get is a classic:

But the object is still there in its folder....
No idea. What can be happened ? Any update i can have done.. ? Max is  
still the same.. haven't touched anything about it..

Thanks Adam. Your comments come very close to my feelings about this. Copy

protection often punishes most the people who have paid for the software.

When Max was with Opcode in the early 90's I was on tour. Suddenly Max

reported that it was no longer authorized. I phoned the company and was

told that they had detected third-party software on my computer that could

be used to bypass copy protection. I don't recall what that software was

but it was some kind of a utility. Fortunately, I had my key disk with me

or I would not have been able to complete my tour with a potential loss of

thousands of dollars. This after purchasing my personal copy and

recommending the purchase of MANY copies to my department, students and

Thanks Adam.  Your comments come very close to my feelings about this.  Copy
protection often punishes most the people who have paid for the software.

When Max was with Opcode in the early 90's I was on tour.  Suddenly Max
reported that it was no longer authorized.  I phoned the company and was
told that they had detected third-party software on my computer that could
be used to bypass copy protection.  I don't recall what that software was
but it was some kind of a utility.  Fortunately, I had my key disk with me
or I would not have been able to complete my tour with a potential loss of
thousands of dollars.  This after purchasing my personal copy and
recommending the purchase of MANY copies to my department, students and
colleagues.

I'm also against anti-piracy/DRM, and find it completely pointless. As one developer in the thread mentioned already it is a complete waste of time, if the product you are developing is good enough someone will take the time to find a way around it.

I'm so sick of these silly restrictions on what I can and can't do with items that I have purchased that I have begun moving over to just using open source apps as much as I can. I have no problem paying for decent software, but restricting what I can and can't do with regards personal use of it is bullshit.

DRM is already as good as dead in music, software will probably (hopefully) follow suit soon enough.

Quote: MikEyhaTsis wrote on Wed, 05 December 2007 03:41

> In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed, it says:

> Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton.

That doesn't specifically say that they have dropped PACE. But we can certainly hope so. :)

Quote: MikEyhaTsis wrote on Wed, 05 December 2007 03:41
----------------------------------------------------
> In the article, "Max 5, what it is and isn't" under "what we've changed, it says:
> https://cycling74.com/story/2007/9/28/105551/882
>
>
> 5. The installation and authorization experience is vastly improved.
>
> Seems like the cycling have been hanging with the abletons, it would be great if they switch max 5 over to the same challenge response as Ableton.
----------------------------------------------------

That doesn't specifically say that they have dropped PACE.  But we can certainly hope so.  :)


Quote: rodrigo.constanzo wrote on Wed, 05 December 2007 06:31

> And if some day in the future c74 goes under, who's going to issue the responses then?

This happened with Opcode's StudioVision Pro after it was bought by Gibsuck. For a long time people were unable to get responses at all. Eventually (a very long eventually) they released a version with CP removed, but there was some real pain along the way. RIP StudioVision Pro.

Quote: rodrigo.constanzo wrote on Wed, 05 December 2007 06:31
----------------------------------------------------
> And if some day in the future c74 goes under, who's going to issue the responses then? 

This happened with Opcode's StudioVision Pro after it was bought by Gibsuck. For a long time people were unable to get responses at all. Eventually (a very long eventually) they released a version with CP removed, but there was some real pain along the way. RIP StudioVision Pro.


> But the object is still there in its folder.... 

> No idea. What can be happened ? Any update i can have done.. ? Max is 

> still the same.. haven't touched anything about it..

DO you have a hi.js, or something like that in your search path?

bluermutt schrieb:
> But the object is still there in its folder.... 
> No idea. What can be happened ? Any update i can have done.. ? Max is 
> still the same.. haven't touched anything about it.. 

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com

Yea I had, i modified the search path and now is working again!

thanks a lot, you saved me. I had no idea...

On Dec 8, 2007, at 9:17 AM, Stefan Tiedje wrote:

>> But the object is still there in its folder.... No idea. What can 

>> be happened ? Any update i can have done.. ? Max is still the 

>> same.. haven't touched anything about it..

Boycott iLok and PACE?