Forums > MaxMSP

Bug in ctlin?? (10 bits)

November 16, 2007 | 7:16 pm

hi

i recently asked how to receive all 10 bits from a midi (actually
USB, but it’s the same) controller

I received several answers ( see
http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=115390&rid=0&S=0284fdca49317dfd1e3646e850467d65&srch=10+bits#msg_115390
) but none worked for me, so i thought my unit was faulty.

when i use it (it is a USB expression pedal) it sends CC numbers
(values) on controller number 1.

I used ctlin, and when rightmost output did ouput the values, the
middle out (controller number) always ouput 1

now when i used a midiin, it did output a serie of numbers (such as
176 1 1 176 64 7 176 etc…)

I think 176 means CC, the next one is the controller number and then its value

so I made a ctlin 64 – hoping to receive there the second part of the
10 bits message – it does not receive anything

but when i use a midiin -> midiparse and at the 5th from right out
of midiparse (control Change) i connect a [route 1 64] i receive
values at both outs (and am able to have more or less my 1024 values
(instead of 127)

(I hope my explaination was clear)

my question is – why ctlin does not see values on controller 64,
which midiin and midiparse do see???

is there any reason??

thanks

best

kasper

Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer

http://www.sleazeArt.com

http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart


November 16, 2007 | 10:14 pm

Is this an available controller?

Which one?

b

On Nov 16, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:

> hi
>
> i recently asked how to receive all 10 bits from a midi (actually
> USB, but it’s the same) controller
>
> I received several answers ( see http://www.cycling74.com/forums/
> index.php?
> t=msg&goto=115390&rid=0&S=0284fdca49317dfd1e3646e850467d65&srch=10
> +bits#msg_115390 ) but none worked for me, so i thought my unit was
> faulty.
>
> when i use it (it is a USB expression pedal) it sends CC numbers
> (values) on controller number 1.
>
> I used ctlin, and when rightmost output did ouput the values, the
> middle out (controller number) always ouput 1
>
> now when i used a midiin, it did output a serie of numbers (such as
> 176 1 1 176 64 7 176 etc…)
>
> I think 176 means CC, the next one is the controller number and
> then its value
>
> so I made a ctlin 64 – hoping to receive there the second part of
> the 10 bits message – it does not receive anything
>
> but when i use a midiin -> midiparse and at the 5th from right
> out of midiparse (control Change) i connect a [route 1 64] i
> receive values at both outs (and am able to have more or less my
> 1024 values (instead of 127)
>
> (I hope my explaination was clear)
>
> my question is – why ctlin does not see values on controller 64,
> which midiin and midiparse do see???
>
> is there any reason??
>
> thanks
>
> best
>
> kasper
> —
> Kasper T. Toeplitz
> noise, composition, bass, computer
> http://www.sleazeArt.com
>
> http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart
>

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com


November 16, 2007 | 10:42 pm

>Is this an available controller?
>
>Which one?
>

euhhhhh

you mean the actual physical controller (the hardware) or are you
talking about a max message???

best

kasper

Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer

http://www.sleazeArt.com

http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart


November 16, 2007 | 10:44 pm

ooops

>>
>>
>>when i use it (it is a USB expression pedal) it sends CC numbers
>>(values) on controller number 1.
>>
>>I used ctlin, and when rightmost output did ouput the values, the
>>middle out (controller number) always ouput 1
>>

of course it’s the LEFTmost which outputs the values……

k


November 16, 2007 | 10:57 pm

Sorry.

I mean, the hardware controller. Is it custom, or something commercial?

b

On Nov 16, 2007, at 2:42 PM, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:

>> Is this an available controller?
>>
>> Which one?
>>
>
>
> euhhhhh
>
> you mean the actual physical controller (the hardware) or are you
> talking about a max message???
>
> best
>
> kasper
> —
> Kasper T. Toeplitz
> noise, composition, bass, computer
> http://www.sleazeArt.com
>
> http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart
>

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com


November 16, 2007 | 11:04 pm

>Sorry.
>
>I mean, the hardware controller. Is it custom, or something commercial?
>

actually it is a custom design which became the prototype of a new
commercial hardware

done by MESI

http://www.modularsquare.com/fr/index.php (on the right….. no links -yet?-)

i highly recommend it (a simple "volume" or expression pedal that you
connect with a USB cable to your computer. Plug and play. great)

best

kasper


Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer

http://www.sleazeArt.com

http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart


November 17, 2007 | 7:13 am


November 17, 2007 | 12:23 pm

>On 16-nov.-07, at 20:16, Kasper T Toeplitz wrote:
>
>>my question is – why ctlin does not see values on controller 64,
>>which midiin and midiparse do see???
>
>Salut Kasper,
>
>there were already a couple of discussions about this. All
>abstractions I know (for the bcf2000 for exemple) to get 7+ bits
>controllers use [midiin] instead of a couple of [ctlin]…
>
>I think that with the bcf2000, 2 [ctlin] worked when using the MIDI
>out plug, but not the USB plug…
>

ah???

sorry for not following the bcf2000 thread…

so it’s a known issue……

well I can live with midiin and midiparse, no problem.

just a little strange

thanks patrick

best

kasper


November 17, 2007 | 12:29 pm

Kasper T Toeplitz schrieb:
> my question is – why ctlin does not see values on controller 64,
> which midiin and midiparse do see???

how do you look at them? with a number box or with print?
If its a number box its just too fast…

The Midi specs are clear about the LSB controler number. Its simply the
MSB cc + 32…

Patrick Delges schrieb:
> All abstractions I know (for the bcf2000 for exemple) to get 7+ bits
> controllers use [midiin] instead of a couple of [ctlin]…

You didn’t look at my abhaXions, including the one I sent in this
thread… ;-)
You just have to think about the order of bytes you might receive, but
thats true for midiin as well… It works for me, but if the box doesn’t
follow the rules of Midi it might not…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


November 17, 2007 | 12:59 pm

thanks stefan

>
>>my question is – why ctlin does not see values on controller 64,
>>which midiin and midiparse do see???
>
>how do you look at them? with a number box or with print?

both

>If its a number box its just too fast…

well [ctlin 64] has only this to receive, and it does not receive
anything…. what would be too fast there??

>>
>
>You didn’t look at my abhaXions, including the one I sent in this
>thread… ;-)

you mean
"If you replace the ctlin with the below patch (name it ctl.in) and
attach a float to the output, you will receive a higher precision if it
sends them between 0. and 128…"

to be honest I did not understand how to use the patch you send me –
and looking at it again i still don’t (yeah, shame on me!!)

ok, i saved the patch you send me as ctl.in, but what then??
replacing ctlin by this does not produce anything, and since i do not
understand what it is supposed to do…….. yeah, sorry, my fault
here

>You just have to think about the order of bytes you might receive,
>but thats true for midiin as well… It works for me, but if the box
>doesn’t follow the rules of Midi it might not…

the pedal sends on CC 1 and CC 64….

using midiin->midiparse it works

are those midi rules or not, i could not tell

thanks & best

kasper

Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer

http://www.sleazeArt.com

http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart



jln
November 17, 2007 | 2:19 pm


November 17, 2007 | 2:53 pm


November 19, 2007 | 10:45 am

On 17 nov. 07, at 13:29, Stefan Tiedje wrote:

> Patrick Delges schrieb:
>> All abstractions I know (for the bcf2000 for exemple) to get 7+ bits
>> controllers use [midiin] instead of a couple of [ctlin]…
>
> You didn’t look at my abhaXions, including the one I sent in this
> thread… ;-)

You’re right, I didn’t at that time, because I though I was clever
enough to find a solution by myself (and getting 2 controllers in the
right order is normally something I can do).

But now I did (I didn’t find the right abhaXion in your huge folder,
but tried the patch you sent: ctl.in), and my conclusion remains the
same: your patch doesn’t work with my bcf2000 when it’s plugged as a
USB interface (mode u-3, the most common mode), it works only when the
bcf2000 is used as a MIDI device plugged to a "real" MIDI interface (in
my case, a FF400) with a MIDI cable.

> You just have to think about the order of bytes you might receive, but
> thats true for midiin as well… It works for me, but if the box
> doesn’t follow the rules of Midi it might not…

Probably the bcf2000 is just like any other Behringer product I know: a
cheap piece of sh*t.
But if you want your abhaXion to work in many contexts, maybe you
should adapt it and make use of [midiin].

_____________________________
Patrick Delges

Centre de Recherches et de Formation Musicales de Wallonie asbl

http://www.crfmw.be/max


November 19, 2007 | 7:26 pm

Kasper T Toeplitz schrieb:
> ok, i saved the patch you send me as ctl.in, but what then?? replacing
> ctlin by this does not produce anything, and since i do not understand
> what it is supposed to do…….. yeah, sorry, my fault here

any error message when loading th ctl.in? maybe some subpatcher is
missing? It supposed to do the same as ctlin, but will add the input on
CC + 32 as fractional part…

> the pedal sends on CC 1 and CC 64….

As its custom made, tell your friend to change the behaviour. It should
send on CC 1 and CC 33. (or CC 0 and CC 32, CC 7 and 39…)

Then usual 14-bit patches will work. Its just not the specs what he
decided…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


November 19, 2007 | 9:44 pm

Quote: Patrick Delges wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 23:45
—————————————————-
> same: your patch doesn’t work with my bcf2000 when it’s
> plugged as a USB interface (mode u-3, the most common mode)

> Probably the bcf2000 is just like any other Behringer product
> I know: a cheap piece of sh*t.

Nope, it’s one of the better things they make. The problem is in ctlin.

The Mac OS X built-in USB MIDI driver (used by the class-compliant BCF2000 and many other devices) outputs the paired CC messages in a single MIDIPacket, and ctlin isn’t handling that, even though it’s perfectly legal.

When used via other MIDI drivers, you’ll most likely get the CC messages in separate MIDIPackets, and ctlin works as expected.


November 19, 2007 | 10:19 pm

>
>
>The Mac OS X built-in USB MIDI driver (used by the class-compliant
>BCF2000 and many other devices) outputs the paired CC messages in a
>single MIDIPacket, and ctlin isn’t handling that, even though it’s
>perfectly legal.
>
>When used via other MIDI drivers, you’ll most likely get the CC
>messages in separate MIDIPackets, and ctlin works as expected.
>

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

thank you for explainig it !!

best

kasper

Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer

http://www.sleazeArt.com

http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart


November 20, 2007 | 8:53 am

On 19 nov. 07, at 22:44, John Pitcairn wrote:

> The Mac OS X built-in USB MIDI driver (used by the class-compliant
> BCF2000 and many other devices) outputs the paired CC messages in a
> single MIDIPacket, and ctlin isn’t handling that, even though it’s
> perfectly legal.
>
> When used via other MIDI drivers, you’ll most likely get the CC
> messages in separate MIDIPackets, and ctlin works as expected.

This makes sense. Thanks John for this clarification. So, should we
send a bug report to Cycling74?

_____________________________
Patrick Delges

Centre de Recherches et de Formation Musicales de Wallonie asbl

http://www.crfmw.be/max


November 20, 2007 | 10:02 am

Patrick Delges schrieb:
> it works only when the bcf2000 is used as a MIDI device plugged to a
> "real" MIDI interface (in my case, a FF400) with a MIDI cable.

That’s odd. Did you look at the difference of the two methods?
I’d be curious what the difference is. In theory the USB connection
should produce the same results as the Midi option. (I guess its not
just a question of the correct Midi port choosen…)

> Probably the bcf2000 is just like any other Behringer product I know:
> a cheap piece of sh*t. But if you want your abhaXion to work in many
> contexts, maybe you should adapt it and make use of [midiin].

I’d only do that if I find evidence that there is any difference. I
don’t have a Behringer, so I can’t test it myself…
(And who knows in Max 5 all the bugs are probably gone anyway… ;-)

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


November 20, 2007 | 10:47 am

Patrick Delges schrieb:
> This makes sense. Thanks John for this clarification. So, should we send
> a bug report to Cycling74?

Yes, unfortunately though they claim to read the list, we rarely get a
feedback which just claims the issue as "filed". Not more than that.
Then we know they are dealing with it.

To the support team of c74:

Isn’t this an easy to do rule? It would not add to the traffic, because
it will lower the follow up posts to a question…

(If there is no response to this mail from the support team we know they
don’t read it, or miss too much of the list…)

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


November 20, 2007 | 8:26 pm

Hi All,
Sorry we haven’t been very interactive with this thread, but we’ve been
waiting to see if something resembling a bug report started to take
form. If anyone would like to take the information gathered in this
thread and send us a proper bug report, we will be happy to look deeper
into it.

For now, it sounds like midiin is your fix.

Best,
Andrew B.


November 20, 2007 | 8:51 pm

(also sent to support@cycling74.com)

Issue:

When receiving data from a class-compliant USB MIDI device that uses the OS X built-in USB MIDI driver, ctlin may not output the second and subsequent messages of a multipart CC message.

Reproduction:

The Behringer BCF2000 and BCR2000 connected via USB both exhibit this problem with ctlin when sending 14-bit CC messages, RPN or NPRN.

Analysis:

The OS X USB MIDI driver places MIDI messages received at the same time into a single MIDIPacket in a single MIDIPacketList. This is legal within the CoreMIDI spec. ctlin does not handle this correctly.

Workaround:

Attach the device to a MIDI interface that uses a 3rd-party driver. These will generally send a single MIDI message per MIDIPacket and MIDIPacketList. ctlin will work as expected. Or use midiin and midiparse.


Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)