Building a DAW in max/MSP
I’m writing my undergraduate dissertation on reproducing and trying to improve a digital audio workstation in max and I was wondering if anybody knows of any good academic literature on DAW architecture? I’m finding tonnes of rubbish on how to use all sorts of software but I need literature that deals with the skeleton/building of a digital audio workstation. Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
Why don’t you look at Ardour? It’s open source so you can look at the code and see exactly how it’s designed.
Looking at code ≠ "academic literature."
It seems like a very strange idea to me, to try and build a DAW in Max. I can understand if you just want to prototype some new ideas, but if you are looking to make anything that is even close in terms of usability to existing DAW software, I honestly don’t think Max is the right way to go about programming it. Even for prototyping new DAW ideas, I think it will be a massive task to get something working well.
I don’t mean to be negative about your project, it’s just that there are good reasons why very little commercial software is built with Max, and to my knowledge nobody has ever made a DAW with it! Some of those reasons are efficiency, scalability, debug-ability, maintain-ability, flexibility. C++ is better choice for these kind of projects.
In terms of literature, maybe there are some papers on the design of ardour in the linux audio conference proceedings (not sure). Otherwise, since most of these projects are closed source and commercial, it’s probably not so easy to find literature describing the design. You might have more luck trying to interview developers. The team that develop reaper are particularly accesible, see http://www.askjf.com/
Endless Series v3 out now – A unique synthesis and effect plugin/app based on the Shepard Tone auditory illusion.
Indeed — but not much "academic" stuff around DAW development. Based on the question I figured the real goal was to understand the architecture of a DAW. So I figured that if he (or she) wanted to know how a DAW is built, then why not look at one?
Best bet for academic stuff is probably CMJ (http://www.computermusicjournal.org/)
I doubt that an undergrad dissertation requires a commercial grade DAW.
There’s http://www.noteformax.net/data/index.php/en/homepage for the MIDI stuff. I wish they hadn’t appended "~" to the name though as it’s not doing MSP stuff.
Actually, while one would certainly not want to compete with Logic or Digital Performer etc, I imagine one could actually build quite an interesting and flexible, if non-traditional, DAW with Max. All the pieces are there (record audio, play it back, adjust it, host VSTs and so forth)
nobody has ever made a DAW with it
look at the rs.delos objects, they are not free, but not expensive, and they could save you a precious time while allowing you to build something useful.
I am really sure i can remember some video here on the cycling site(i think it should have been some science fair video, i’ve tried to find it, but no luck so far) presenting some professor from i don’t know where (south america?) who made something that really looked as powerful as propellerheads reason.. He said he created something like a virtual studio within max for his students to be able to practice at home.
Can anyone remember that guy? Maybe he could help. At least it looked like somebody has tried to create something DAW like.
I think Oli Larkin had the best advice(the rest is just amateur guessing >:D).
the idea of the project isn’t to try and make a commercial DAW or anything of the sort in max, it’s more an exploration of signal processing and how max can be used to mimic functions in a traditional DAW and how max allows much more user flexibility. I know c++ would be a better option, but like I said the end product is not the DAW it’s the dissertation, plus i’ve only just started C and C++ so I probably wouldn’t be able to write much of a dissertation based on that.
Ignore "Tokyo Rose". As the great Pauli once said, "he’s not even wrong".
Now that you’ve provided more information, I would recommend the following two books for excellent examples of what you need
1) Electronic Music and Sound Design – Alessandro Cipriani & Maurizio Giri
2) Designing Sound – Andy Farnell
Both of these have extensive coverage of audio and signal processing using Max/MSP and/or PD to implement their examples. The first is probably easier to get started and the second is deeper.
I forgot about Eric Lyon’s new book, Designing Audio Objects for Max/MSP and Pd. Although its focus is on building externals, it has some excellent introductions into signal processing, again in the context of Max/MSP so that will probably be helpful as well.
i dont find his request so absurd.
building a DAW-style patch is by far easier than for example building a good compressor or reverb patch.
recording and playing from a buffer, recording and playing from disk, as simple mixer with AUX and inserts, using the vst~ object, recording fader automation, using metro, sychnronising messages with audio stuff … all belong to your daily needs also when you are about to program idiosyncratic mangling effects. so why not just start with a "DAW" when someone is new to max?
Yeah I have Electronic Music and Sound Design, superb book! I was planning on ordering Designing sound as well. The book on building externals will be useful as well since the final chapters will be discussing that matter (and I’m looking at doing postgraduate research in software developments, specifically for max so it will be a good book for the collection, although I don’t think it’s available in the UK yet.)
I’ll be building and discussing compressors and reverbs (and a bunch of other standard signal processing stuff you find in a DAW) as well and how abstractions can be used almost as plug ins, but with the advantage of being customisable. I think the vst~ object is going to get its own section because that provides a cross over between existing DAW’s and eliminates the problem of being stuck with a completely standalone patch.
Thanks for the help folks
I think the key is in the word "Workstation". I have to disagree with Roman, in that I think that building a compressor or reverb is something very possible and well suited for Max (or Max4Live even!), where as building something that compares in usability to even a basic digital audio workstation is hard, and Max is ill-suited for that purpose. If you are talking about making a single-track sampler/recorder with a record~ , play~ and buffer~, plus a vst~ – that is a VERY different thing to a making a DAW, and bears little resemblance to the architecture of modern DAWs as was asked about.
To the OP – from what say, you seem to have already decided that Max is a suitable replacement for a DAW, which offers advantages over existing DAWs. I really don’t think it is, sorry! Max4Live, FLSynthmaker or Reaktor, are good examples of software which let you customise your effects chain within a proper DAW.
Basically I don’t think this is a good premise for a dissertation/final project!
Actually, I think it would be quite nice to build a single-track recorder as described by Oli and then instantiate it a few times and wrap some control infrastructure around it to get basic multi-tracking. There would have to be a way to record/trigger audio at different points in time to make it more useful. I wonder in fact whether one could use something like note~ or rs.delos to do timeline management.
I wouldn’t mind having something like that available in my own toolkit to use with my bands rather than the hacks I’m using now to trigger some background loops.
On the other hand, now that OP has described what he is trying to do, I agree strongly with Oli that he would be far better served working with something like Reaktor.
OL I understand what you’re saying, but you don’t seem to be listening to what I’m saying. I’m not trying to replace a DAW with max/MSP, the project is not the DAW or building something to customise my effects chain, it’s a written discussion on signal processing works in different features and how they can be replicated in max. Max is an ideal was of taking a diagrammatic model of something that would be traditionally used in a DAW and re-creating these features using a visual programming language. For example the 10 band graphic EQ patch attached I have built and now I have a better understanding of how an EQ works, which is the kind of thing that will be included in my dissertation. It’s a piece of written work I am handing in, not the patch, or even abstractions from the patch.
----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 8400.3oc6c18bijab.+4c+qPkxiYMCPiuSdxopT4kj33xUkWt5pqnD4pk9nH UHo1ymcc9ucOC9fZ.+DXzfQjC6qrWILb3HzMZznAZ7Cye6ye59GV9Wlt9969 Wu6Gt6Se5u84O8I6kpuvm7k+z8OO9u737wqs218Ot74mmtXy8ew8Yal9W1Xu 9+6poqmtYcyq+3x4KW4d1jQjubGs4+b2O5uyEu97xW2Lu96VcqD+UeY7lG+1 rEO8Sql93F2yfRLzQhubmRXrOCv9PAdim0K0UhEaFuY1xE0eIp+5ylXqiKe3 O+6nLdnN90kK1rX7ySse1ue0rwy29Iqd5AasYD4.O4F0ItVNRIkFotpdQsUH EcjTwUb9N0s5+Zec7iSaVupu15Y+U20ja+iUoRlsHnQn0W6297mq+mujXijs 1tsMJVCyOtF1nX0R.SIsJXhUd3jDTvtm+le8kotmz1Zvc2Oag8GwWX6CrYKi 99SqrACLxP.sgUok4VCIdks.2eIsN1ppgJr4ycyOMY7lwAS9sJP224goqZ7E pt1a2akkmsZJpkguNeY0c6+sw0hkUWEtGUB2iIg6Qyp+nWq5v85apxFeNKkJ SsA+4uIVB2DHNc0gmhbykobSIIXpSWcDonhE5TtojDLyoqNJZJVNjDtIYJBl jd5piNEyBMjxMkjfcFSYSJlElTLKLIIXxSWcnjTrKnDUR2URxl9L0HHESCJ0 jzckjzQImoJwRw7fxnIcWIId.blpjy8x7Yee5nmFOawe+3OJW+0MKe5o4SO7 yR.m4Nbh+r4alt5oUie4a1+ZKbWnJTnpgP+xclScuUCGs7k5g4puai8ASs+E p9e5S8EeY7pwO6+RTggnGoUUCDxpERiPS0PU3Gi.JgIz4TGzsoNT+WPooizF hDD1v6z.Ez0+llK4DVNUAUapB0eIljMRKTl5u5HslIXz5Z.yPDTZN0.YapAU eIPBvHoFXJa6flQYJqR.TBIOmZfnM0f5uAToCjTS0Or0fptCZoqFvUDSNUAd apBUeIIUMhnpZ8MVaQBU5aFzU0FQN0.VapAUeIFoVxERJaGCAdksXV5.nM0f puDsJ5TCmYXVcPUEA3fsU.DZHKc.sM0fpaWJFwEUFh0+8UFMy0YDXRRV8DHs 4Oe8rxDUc6jDmI.Sa31eSKkDg7tezEb8u8Y2uk4bah+ydnY3nNwbHYZ6Lb3t o1nT1oPVOsmyNEmst0qu1aSSsRlmVc4eZ5hwOLeZyovt2bhlOa8llCGcpeIb uGaxRv4lqT0DSqa4nvQEznoHo8Wrp02Im9YDF29e9QZr50i9O6L5xYGz3zOs cFn3b9+O8CaGe9LJkOhR.QcW3pI1KUfr1m5Ve4m9osi+aPNhZpzPVEDXDDEz zo7oeV63H9b9WO8CaGepLckTVMdgnRWJGYTRfAMcUd5G1NtGkLwHBiqEUWgO pZnOsT2zq2oeX63o6jNvN8SZGmVR4HNvIDd8CP.JPodyYzoeVsxA0QWgr4i+ 069SKecwjpdXSK4BkwH10wQUu9S0wDvZyBko6vkIqRSuckapLrFwoUiNxObU qOWmri0T86ecxrk28GV7u7G95WKYCU0zYrMTt1qVthlc55YVocCqdYbCE4Cs g54oqWO9oo60Ps7koKNbP.zSn1ktgOLVstPORHXLSk+EP2lk57vKloHglki0 aoZ3BY8bIpiiCLaaDpp1Grl1ToCzQbhl.vgz7PKz7gY+loNFL0ChXDzpJqtJ nqfLvnijBBudRIa+0ypxyJJqit7xBHC8d03DiDFNsdrhpAPrUTnwudjEZtEJ 3ES+kpp2dV1q+5KUiWbjHbgyZbq45pA1U7Z0e0ndblcdfLngYydZt0ydZQsw 4c2+v3EOcDkHIAuMMsGgQBhQp4GzdLDz43uGpC+S+O14fDD9pdW1Qxq7+TMc B6v40W49+s6a0PyszX1mIjKD6350s5zNw4r59dbs5BvNdx3GOhQ7oFXTNhQT RaVcpDFIgSqElpouTERHQYpyQUCK4HsiJSCTazzJVm4vr4RO593uOd015w9e ZrRQjjRQxsCcosSlkJRY5qGx1iddOAu8a6O8zCq+kmaloBygCwf4BBxbz4n1 zcwjeZ7lMql8vqal91us12rDRoWkle9qSW90vkeKUeuoMV+skq1b7lmn6c9x EOk3s95hYaVu4Wc5Y9AtgmqLZp+rsAIsymNy1586TjC94ypd70FzgPQCJrna JzfRBq2xme6GYZT6Wv88sm+u+AJ4GCevrMSe1uYBtexr009vqMV9h0hY4u7R 8SKT9ayd5aQWnZLmI6cg0aV9x1K7xzw+7hkU8KZ9PW+soy+ZzSM9JUFgKWL1 kCZ6EFOet8OyQBWmchNfbhMw3.ytADDtYWYZ14KWG799UGtqDrMfkwqVs7WZ 9vh7s8+Mc0jwKFGcyeck+SIGJxbR2EY9Qb6W04uJz7I287xISua6.VymsX5i Uy.dSytyoOLbP+ar98j1IdwXmJjlinXY4MFgcQzJ7TNq8jj+3jbpcKwPUVMB 2ZQBvQFZDZ0LEO6z73kW47Gaulw0WkoNslQbspY95po++uNcwi+Z9ZHlaIh0 ViFs3zJH4ktB5L9gbImny7Dw.USOQrV6IR8w4I5XZrJc0i+b9yQhwrc3.27O 4NO0jVnRzciJIZfbW9LZFZX8Zv98oqVGGlb0nmu7RiKGG03yi+ytk+StMZqp +ftK8VTZql98YguuJD5U3w2Xy1Atn2cajMoOiT5lAyc+COMe4i+7zIM+CXWy qYK1MN+se7joec7qy27SGVGE+4gNmG7COnp+S2+zpYSVtvtvaM+l0WN7mqxZ P3lYRSgwdGKF+xA9xqqjiWW+v3U0ZNebSP3C2rb473OZaiUkA93Eydd7loal 4pr.Y6Cc1yurZlqC91q4BK6aqeb0x4yidTtO46G3SlT0d93zeY1jMeKx8V8m Tc6ydIzDb+VczjYOMc8l3qsY7SqiuRzdusogVydtQW+T8fi6E+Wme2iea7hs KY5wWDoi0gV6i0xN7fD1s67Q5R2LX1c6ZKZVWNtE1w6fejIn2XxMA+esQa5D liquHmVeYb4WyMh.HB+6wTF56OlLQa7Agg8s1McnrdBKmZu+1U7pxR+N5niq OnIY+Pr5CsIQ6miotTcusCqC0mwgmEqPeX4hIKua8ut3wusZ4hpJ1567oyXc y6+PQjjuUHU6RGESXi9UP1MxjcUrxLTr6FfWVpaZ+X95z1r6nG2vkkRGYJGb iKmgiuS47ieYa.aepstuN0ANflcBeeo2WmcTWijdv036TSvncnl.th0DJSGp Hnchh3sXQqc1djPurhR8meXMz5kut5wP8Mv5QrXUEV3lYK1FY9O7F2Hw222l MYRbfvtXGWWGI5jFqb6YZMysFKRrFquXpw7DqwpKpZLMwZL8hoFCIVigKhZL KQqB9ESMFxnFeYXUPynF2E877aN3vBl3y0W0egpwUNQh9duKpw4WzjLlo+Aq Dm3O9w9i9z7kOLdte8q19cOvBJz975crj1+vlkia+R.5.g0svVsZI.MebqJZ ..ob21MbhalBNY2MuqHYOqbCtMQ6Gem3vHWsJIpP2WJI50qRhZ5KkDbAlDhW Wb7zPvOuOnfIlIAePe4.SeOVA0U4K9ROkDtbAZDXFIvLR7QrF5LpptyKinRa QzovG5pn+NkVPXS.OixRTZoWyRKkYWP0zkVx0rz5NBURVXMWrYCxu+IV+NVI PlamcBN0fh+NSEjt6WIc50ixDbci.mN8cqLU2zJSJyNdSWoLk2zJSNypK6nd 4hqVc43MKm7P6MIcaqUpiX68WCkLUi7qV03ec9cqmWEl6oxjKjltz08Vn5f8 vB6xdOrTV8oKYdco5DtrUmuuLfpIM15TC3LfpSLGAT3hI8bolzVJ8hoJKSsJ St5Rzr4pKQyxKlZLKwDMqunpwWWIym0yIAs+Rzr3hpFmhcL6hoFmZpwAL03W ioF+DHuZtYHdEj8JwqaWy2qchW0cDmYfaFrdNybYyrMblQoCEhWAkHchWovM DwqAMSRDuRY2fDuBbcxDuR4CChW6JOQzJslVI15KRQGUel90JmQhACzq0mVI cAzqTIB8JtESvsXxGMzqTGthLgDodMMpWcggARj5Uj5Uj5Uj5Uj5Uj5Uj5Uj 5Uj5Uj5Uj5Uj5Uj5UL0dCapWCqA36k5Up55iUwP9A6MpWo5qVkT+Q8J0b8pj 5MpWAx.h5UuOnNk5UfhTuhoj.SIAR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8 JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR8JR85Pl5U8MC0qT+a2u9g5Uidf.8ppq PMCft.5UiYnv7Jk4LASh4UB4Fh405dpIy7JgdCx7ZMSKox7JAFFLu1UNhHt9 cAhWUsk9dBav.7JgK5DfWIbD3Ub2kf6tjObfW4twLUTD30L.dk4FOEAdEAdE AdEAdEAdEAdEAdEAdEAdEAdEAdEAdEAdEyp2vE30vZ.9dAdkHt9vTjR08Kvq D4UqRp+.dkntdUR8FvqD8.B3UuOnNE3UhAAdESIAlRBD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3 UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD3UD30gLvqpaEfWMZ nG4cUKGH7tJ6FLyLtcUa.2UYKoLSqFH3tZzpjocUqucfc0nIIy5p1b6g5pwQ iXJjtZHCCPW6HOPZSSf6kr1BbOcnf4p1ncTtReWTtZ.DxUbGkf6njOZHWMV6 RFAeotl1tZvwzIysv1HiqHiqHiqHiqHiqHiqHiqHiqHiqHiqHiqHiqHiqXh7 FrLtFV.v2IhqF1UGWhF2IAVuA3pgesph5M7VMhqVUTeA2pQNbXa066oKQa0n PxVw7Pf4g.IaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIa EIaEIaEIaEIaEIacHS1p7VgrUsek65GxVUrABYqhNhqLv+9SzNCBW9LaAWYJ 9.gr0Zqw5L6pSfrUk31gr0fdIExVUxaOxV0DYpuCWUpgAYqcjGHEm0vCTqIa UoGJjspDTGYqv6hrUkAIaE2QI3NJ4CmrU2aijnEpEIa8D5K2tZ.LHYqHYqHY qHYqHYqHYqHYqHYqHYqHYqHYqHYqHYqXh7FzjsFV.v2IYqZxUGShZ.5UxV0z qPUjKCotscZOnhfqVUTeQ1plObHa066oKIaUKPxVw7Pf4g.IaEIaEIaEIaEI aEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIaEIacHS1p3Vg rUotOIaURGHjsx6FtxjRQSxVa66rUILPHas1ZLUxVkraGxVC5kTHaUxu8HaU JRlrUoXXP1ZG4ARX310z0S1JosdfjCExVkDOYqr2EYqRER1JtiRvcTxGNYqt wJcu5VQxVO+d3f3FBPvPzVQzVQzVQzVQzVQzVQzVQzVQzVQzVQzVQzVQzVwL 4MnQaMrBfuSzVk5qNnDk98zaeg1pzbsph5MzVUjqVUTeg1phNbPa066oKQaU AHZqXhHvDQfnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshn shnshnshnshnshnsNjQakeqf1pfw6QzV4lABZqrNBrLptKPaUPFHnsJXxjQa UPucPaMnWRAsUAb6g1pnp+ehnsJXCCzV6HOPbdS35cj12FOP7gBZqbgi0WGL HsFsUg.QaE2QI3NJ4iFsUJws8vz.x1ZZaqAWHFRIh1Jh1Jh1Jh1Jh1Jh1Jh1 Jh1Jh1Jh1Jh1Jh1Jh1JlIuAMZqgU.7ch1pPd0AknvGfSeg1pPcEphTt0DT2S pH8UqJpuPaUXFNns588zknsJIHZqXhHvDQfnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshn shnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnshnsNjQakcqf1JyuascakwRi 1JSMPPaE5FvxXtIPDPa0zRvxX5ABZqLGVhIg1Jyb6f1Jy3.HKEzV4jaOzVYR dpnsxoCCzV6JOPjn2Zq7V5AhCCEzVYDSWf1Jmgnsh6nDbGk7wi1pewY4HZqI 9Za0sIN.Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1Jx1JlJuAMaqgk.7c x1Jme0QkXHeT8EaqbwUnJB5U1V4xqVUTew1JWMbXa066oKYakqQ1VwLQfYh. YaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaEYaE YaEYacHy1Jbqv1JvM83qsUPLPXak1MjkAbRW7ZaEjCD1VA2FwNI1VA0sCaqf .RlsUPe6w1J.Iy1JXFFrs1QdfnRRW7ZakQFJrsRkd1VEuK1VYTjsUbGkf6nj dXWGP8CJptxgw78Cxqw4sxgE3s.GuHZqHZqHZqHZqHZqHZqHZqHZqHZqHZqH ZqHZqHZqHZqsFs0vJ.9NQakAWcPI5S+Rug1Jicsph766zdPEc8AHsOWx8FZq LwvAsUuumtDsUl71.sUvkqFICSDAlHBDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDs UDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDsUDs0aLzVo2JnsR8udl5GzV0rABZ qjtArL2aiy.WYfMWAsfrU9EWtc+meC8tjUFBetIML26ML6ZMcxz5Zyz1gTHc zVl.5NExSi2TMubxQTJm7M1psmoxsWiobx4UKQY69X++Cp2fKN81iiW+33IS +6YaM4oAV41d.6y4y9ps0ydZQkbdPEC8hSwXQ2wAtCYT9ZGta8vItezV.NgN hnU1GMS8TZ5L0SugdeQSoZ6VsIEl5opaOl5MIiTOULLPpuih7ATMdaQqHsLx G5f4sEsWe7NApmh.0i6iMber8gyXtmGZI9thN02UzTG6xR7cEMBTOBTOBTOB T+oUYNhOPp5Qp5ywt.QqGQqGQqGQqGQqGQqG2IAWnn06WJv2IY8TxUGSz9jv zaj0atV0P816LZ0UqFpu3pWb4cnhSI28uOdwj69OWM9kuM6w69O9i28vud2+ 0zeY1569SaVtX52V955omLMN0OqGWN2s57+vct4z27eNxFM5TYRzsV.t81g6 85sLpcYm0jmd.H8aSFzZ9bibxZ8xxc460r+Q574x7FvGQAFEnWpmRBtgQnts AQmbHIPusd8eimQBXtkvyHA7LR.OiDvyHA7LR.OiDvyHA7LR.OiDvyHA7LR. OiDvyHA7LR.OiDvyHA7LR.OiDvyHA7LR.OiDvyHgA4Na3kwKlNOerAIZK91b iM7XpGWm5erMwROL9we9oUKecwjnjBcjz.9vxUSltJJmjTNSpnUVUiT.wPE0 +FUqkZdbJJaF931i46GdJ5Yw.Nnqe.RfR3vARz4wxin6HS.jtiOAvMcUwHQy Lj99RLXKaB.29nkq5plfl5Q9QziDizXrsDfAHRQ1JRNSzPSBRSbtl+HzjFGN dBET.E4amK+6nIAMWwj0ZRBToI4YqIUDdCMIslo4yqIs2Q7rhbJ1cGVvqd2a 3.STTroLVv9iCr+X.60Nmb0QmP0Ym5bQqOpTpOxyTedd1jWVNawl0AlKbljt YZqcbHuSI2FuvHkGnjaqYXzVJbskdqB1sRN6bRtHSIm2TxCxSbIAqozIXkS5 nmS53YJc.cDq5+nr5yjGQSwvHJmXbVySnclmNIPa36Wx+Zovem1RkR5fTjNZ FRGiORV8eZ0aMRBZCQzWJHhUsohBKhrTDQH6dYAIvMBcwj.YILA8cabIRv3V z13R.U1r0JtT+XdJRUxg7kbuOQujGUJEIuvs47TjbVqZyA.ZJOQkB8Pa3fpD RGK01UZ+DCBjR8g1ewDQurBYLgZS7pKedaQp2quy5SoaXJpZN3n6.1oTFhZ0 EkhVmhm9cpyEs9jh+Wclwvo7Ie04wUwzGnjKZbsaKquSIWr4ZFqjwlak7yE0 fNywb0jlRdPdhKIXMktBEatU5NWr4ZZlsqJ9twlqYzRFadRlmJS6LOcRPvfL pDvcG.gR51RkR5fTjtLhMWoU6FatlDM8CBuoHp3tXyMeb8xrhHjcurfDn0Es QhW.SvPueWz3ASvnR8jIXJwoA79a7HHUsMju1N3GlD4UlzXF.g9Fwk5G6rTh HTSx0NqYLXA4IpTvwWCmhkP5Ho1tRy1Qd+3ISkRLxJcu0SQounBrUwurpNo3 WS0e90TI4WKy3wjzlQaJz5CTxEYsTZNPIWb1RcQiy1J4mMBfL8qIEMk7f7DW xEmcP5JTb1JHg3rkYFcfD1KN6fXTH2yIYdJUsy7zIABiZ+RdW296rXttgDhy VpxavGIau3rkhlin5KEDQnriNkRuLoJu3ljhliuJYEM9GEsDlf5lwYKkjlmf pxlQ9EZshK0OlmjTkbHeIO3SjD4gLYIuvs4orriz7Db+xNFBuu4Z+qatz+9E jLpfn4I3m.JhLKSINRotU149H6CsgQkBdknEMNeoNUaYZ1CjzOdRkoXTJk8V jiR4EUf0R3xp5jznF8X8IEe4hLiGj67HQcmItBGYw6TxEKufIKYr7Vo6bQYH xz2kvuND94s.vAJ4hkOHcEJVdqzctX4EYFAR8VQrNVdN+sXeY7RFKeZlfh1Y B5j.t6LFJtj28r+NKl6YRBwxKD4M.C2PrwxKju0HQhltBo4zU3tyQmhJhrTD QH6dYAIvTzHZElBXBF586hdO32KpjOZtPqUbodw7TnSUxg7kbuOwf+eRlRdg aySItIgL21bdi3ZCxSTofSnFNnJgzISscklsS09wqhHkToJ5uUDUbYsfwBxk U0I0YFm+Fxw6xT2b+.l3Li8uKrJzLi4IMpAo2ZC3o3KmmY7frvdBw8xESdnR tX4YFZIik2JcmKJCdl9qYhlqDOSoOPIWr7AoqPwxaktyEKOOyHPXLX2X4YUs bELV9zLAYsyDzKAD49k7CI4uyRMjjU5fTjtLFTkwE6FKOS1b5J9RAQz+NWsj hHKEQDxtWVPB3xh1HoJgIno4PQA+dQk7i+vhVq5cZ6Jr4oLUIGxWx89DixbY FRdgaySI7Cdl6JTuqRez6A4IpTnGZCGTkP53o1t1O6McdJ6UAd+E6I+xZIdY WVazEVJ9CY829.hkhWJVlQ5PUMiKE73+FWxe3Vy0kLJUqzctwOYY5IBh1W1. ScfRB+w2YQiR0JcmKJUVlisRMtnTqY626PMHFExgZZlfz1YB5j.p6kDabI+r R82YolVpU5fTjtLhREHtnTUvaMR9bcDUJHhFWTpkTDYoHhP18x7R.3mXQoj. QALAC917GEiQu+c8k7QmEZshK0Olm7Tk7bZ6DMiRcq+eRdRdoaySItIVlD73 k7ffbneDbBoJZTpLH0109IJU1k0BjBWVaKBHE+OP+sqQfKqUWGRByjL6pJD1 WYsJWfnbhdaoBzczV4jmCf3b2b.toDqbGTnd.AiKANFG7GoIwkBGyGj2VX0R I4hyAlRt6m.2ojuWV8HOEWxKcAvTJozwO21SGxc2R.MZWktibf3RgsuiVefR 9stNs7R9Y2xvYtw747l1vR+oqdTI+K7bAkreIudHr+RhK4zJgD8VRsxYWS5L 2hSb2KW6DzJ9k.LtjuWOyc39DWJj5HxgJ4S0RCviKkF6rShMyDIw8GT.NcDi Q1ujz8CJX1ujW+4OQ5iK40QgYTFWxowBg1URMl4bY2M248KBJIR3zKQraIp+ nih4lCisXojO84jOHyYiIn1cAixyOuxIsQkX9y8M+aBucJ563PCSHKtXnoGH rh21qN6QsgI28PYSWJAcSTofxf.lCTzO+MJgAGnXP2PDhhqaN6tdHSGI9vB8 tBYMsZ10QxdEnbUiSnj5BkPpSYKLSyMS70V20xsaN6UF4tMyQyRRH7t1RSTR CyekOVQj1shnyyug+lHxJyw4TJSO.X82DtRY9V4thrb6FTSw4A2mgRERedtf JfLCNE.1HsekwkFRXsoD9RERJfTjhb1fCDxHpeCNDjBsinsBJErTjhbxCtRt UwWGvpojMCzj1rgzdbukQEPmTiNfsglaDT81w88qE6NkXtIQIspcaohn1Ikv MjuR62NydAJpjePfsGbGQkDxltuDkY3.ZRalQZt6dPpqehuwzPZzx5K3Wb92 FSWC5BIgxRHgMq4bxtxBmTPYgljrjy96tJJSQiVg5ybkQUAcppy5WwZWRJsH zbyKx14L5iuhAxCUD7TY3OGz1onakZobZQOwIbZ.1Y0.452goiz.bxAKJXQx XglpjSFOqEKK2yrQlvczSndaKttUTJThtRzfEzszf0KEAKz3h.mzbEQfR4fg wRHRPmLRyQFktCgBP1Px7uq1hK5OTasMvE7rXNw9dfNSn98881JExhdpDSSJ 4q4aRF5I4sLYFnwNJXaQ+JRFZGiKtUCvokUCPSVC.sPCDF1PahFEwuCy5qVY RRxnocsxgcKPngKt31tm7hddLrasusNd5xZjNoZT+cF3t6eqO5jkSSKa48X8 IMugrdrFkl2orOwpIMQqcalA1onOnVPxNTQeLtfRTzXbsZfyNNK0zysImMhT pNanEk6EQZP4VLmlIYdQksz7xKETs9.ECC94u4hM3GPSIhTZlqIekuBydQjB 7nMuqu3VA0kWuxJnrjDzrNlo3QwiALRYatHkwjz2SxGEh+0n0tE8QoEZGiK1 aFrWVCJRMI2f.snAwOlCDcPWFJ1WFczjBUipZmQWHh3fcTbwsdKZ3zrHxnJ4 1wdJ.YZRKrJUzi15hKr9dzKr5SZNmo8XMJo3i6u5CIs2vL4FbXXCo3cOF1tJ 6TzGgNkxNTQe.6UdkJZ.6VMvYCCgjeBghz.TJ6PE8KJcPFK0hRSLoLE.RtAo Pj58lBPPTJ0vBIZvxaoAqWJHwqQMgGM7t+lK1v6DSJSAvJi4LE.hlt2T.Hln 453KtUPk5hNEfD66wyLVMeeusRgFJayktHljgdRdSQJIZJ.zn2HFaa31oXeY vpRVC.sPCDbZFcfTloFnz1.IEaHQzNafPH3AgJt31NuM7gUDYTjbqbOEQNIo sODoGW.TxE1RDSR87JqmZwR4MSbtawZaLHLnwTSKJU8orrUpbeAt4nav8tuV tegvdfunm5AoL2jbOYt7LUwZdlu2rPXU4K5QpFs.GZeLUzhgrWgd4j4KskJN 22eF1fDkucJUD8VAM5bGTPJ4oePZqObdwTnTs7EJf8Fte7Ku78oqV6qC1Z98 OO9OubUcQ4WrEmsvUzVCte0zuOKb+pOW+z9sO+OfO3G+a -----------end_max5_patcher-----------
And my university doesn’t support Reaktor, I can’t write 10000 words on something I know nearly nothing about
The question is surely, when is a DAW not a DAW? (When it’s a .jar ? ;-)
Actually someone (Tim Place?) did make a very creditable attempt at building a traditional ‘multitrack + mixer’ style DAW in Max a number of years ago, though iirc it was shared as an abandoned project – I’m sure I still have it somewhere, but I can’t for the life of me remember what it was called.
My initial question is not just a really bad pun; the beauty of Max is that you can build your own ‘workstation’ that doesn’t have to imitate the well-trodden multitrack/mixer analogue – you’ll find plenty of examples on the Projects page, including my own poor efforts (talking of abandoned projects…).
Patching together a mixer with a timeline based on note~ or rs.delos would be interesting and possibly useful, but look also outside the box(es),
I have to agree with Oli. You wrote "reproducing" in opening post, and so people try to save your time (not merely discourage). The core of a DAW is a playlist and editing capabilities. EQ, as Reaktor or EWQLSO, is just a plugin. Which DAW’s "features" do you want to "replicate in max"?
btw. Nice EQ. Quite similar to Stefan Tiedje’s one (http://cycling74.com/forums/topic.php?id=19644). Maybe you are after exploring Max as an effect box?
Yeah I do appreciate the help and I know you’re trying to save me the trouble, but if it proves a failure and impossible to use, it will still be a success in terms of my dissertation because my conclusion will be (in a nutshell) "despite the benefits discussed blah blah blah, trying to build a DAW in max/MSP is impractical because…… a better option to explore would be…." I’m just trying to emphasise that the patch isn’t the important thing, I’m using max as the vehicle because I know how work with it (it’s impractical for me to take the time to learn another software whilst doing the research for an undergraduate dissertation) the functionality of the end product isn’t the most important thing.
And I suppose you could say I’m exploring max as an FX box, but the idea is using abstractions as customisable plugins, going into a master mixer. All the facilities are there in max, it may not be the most practical option, but it’s the best way for me to explore and mimic a DAW using a visual coding medium.
Funnily enough the question on literature about DAW architecture is the main thing I’m after here (I know it’s a max forum) and is for the first chapter that is general technical information on DAW’s. Max won’t actually be mentioned until the second chapter.
Here is a scientific paper about some relevant aspects of a DAW.
If you say, ‘ignore Tokyo Rose’ you’ve only proven that you can’t ignore and i’m still in your head.
dhjdhjdhj makes such irrelevant software and comments anyways :p
so you can start writing the last chapter ;-) good luck!
That paper by Roger and Ross does not seem to be accessible. I’m getting a "Forbidden" notice when try to get it.
Strange. I’ve just tried again and the link works for me (using Safari).
@ oli and others:
i think you have a strange look at DAWs when you really think that a flexible effect plug-ins matrix or offline sample editing is the "core" of these programs.
the core is the harddiskrecording and the mixer. and the basic architecture for that is like 20 objects in max and i would suggest it as a nice homework for undergraduate students.
and when it is too difficult to get multitrack recording working, then one can still use buffers and export after "stop", and you still have something similar.
yes, when you compare a modern DAW against a simple reverb you are right that a simple reverb is easier.
but if you want to be fair you have to compare a basic DAW against a modern reverb, and probably come to another result.
as long as you are not trying to create a product for others to use, maxmsp seems the perfect
tool to make a little custom STEM mixing application. (for 32-200 tracks and the need to do wave
editing i would of course still go back to steinberg or avid, but that is mostly a matter of CPU)
"@ oli and others:
i think you have a strange look at DAWs when you really think that a flexible effect plug-ins matrix or offline sample editing is the "core" of these programs."
to each his own. but actually, part of my ‘strange’ look at DAWs incorporates the idea of a ‘linear’ timeline as well(as narrow-minded as that may seem, so is the general idea of a DAW as it has been generally come to be used and known). this is what separates a DAW from a more flexible ‘audio programming environment’ in general.
Max is a strange choice to narrow down into a DAW,…
but you’re right, it is still an interesting exercise. For that matter, relevant to this thread, i suppose we should link to all the timeline solutions(such as the nice JS one posted awhile back). i’m just too lazy to find them… a bit like creating a DAW in max/msp: there’s so many other more interesting things to learn in the environment, i’m just worried boredom will overtake me halfway through the process >:D
to each his own, well yes, but look at the history how these programs started 15 years ago. record and play, mix, edit, automate, add effects, add realtime effects, plug-in and channel- delay compensation, fully dynamic layout and architecture .. in that order and not the other way round.
"to each his own, well yes, but…"
but nothing. you can’t refute subjectivity
"in that order and not the other way round"
sorry, were you trying to make some kind of point? i think you may have forgotten to include it, if so :)
never mind. ^^
never mind. ^^
Someone built one in PD. Can’t find the link, but it was a while ago and very basic, but it worked and might provide you with at least an example. Good luck with the project,
""For the King of Limbs, the band actually programmed their own DAW in Max, which they used to record the album (Jonny mentions this during a BBC radio show with Colin and Adam Buxton, filling in for Jarvis Cocker).""
if radiohead did it why should we not :D
Hey Bledar where did you read that ? (i’m interested !)
King of Limbs quote from Jarvis Cocker’s Sunday Service on BBC Radio 6 at around 37’40" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VtqrzwCOmU