I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/msp and studio skills.

Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture myself doing all day :p

cheers,
Danjel

However, consider freelancing!

Work makes one free…

b

On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:

>
> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>
> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
> msp and studio skills.
>
> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
> myself doing all day :p
>
>
> cheers,
> Danjel

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com

You think there is freelance work to do with the video game companies? Maybe that is an ideal compromise…. what would one charge (hourly rate) for doing specialized max/programming work?

cheers,
Danjel

It would seem that the main audience for doing Max work
is the academic world. I would be curious to know if
you academic types out there use Max contract programmers
or do you rely on cheap grad student labor? I feel
there is the need for free programming agents who
can pick up any design doc and implement it. Thus freeing
the academic to be creative instead of having to devote countless
hours to learn Processing, or assembler, or C++, etc.

How would you recommend one go about marketing themselves?

Anthony

—– Original Message —–
From: barry threw
Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:57 pm
Subject: Re: [maxmsp] careers in Max/MSP?

> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free…
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
> >
> > Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that
> have
> > involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
> >
> > I heard for example that the video game industry often models
> audio
> > engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
>
> > that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding,
> max/
> > msp and studio skills.
> >
> > Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
> > career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>
> > myself doing all day :p
> >
> >
> > cheers,
> > Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>

To model GUIs?

Now im scared. Id love to know more – out of curiosity.

I will admit to doing freelance Max/MSP development for various
clients, but the work is relatively few and far between, but maybe
thats just me!

On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:57 PM, barry threw wrote:

> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free…
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
>>
>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
>> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>>
>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
>> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
>> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
>> msp and studio skills.
>>
>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>> myself doing all day :p
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>

Keith

On 11/6/07, barry threw wrote:
> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>
> However, consider freelancing!
>
> Work makes one free…
>
> b
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>
> >
> > Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
> > involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
> >
> > I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
> > engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
> > that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
> > msp and studio skills.
> >
> > Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
> > career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
> > myself doing all day :p
> >
> >
> > cheers,
> > Danjel
>
> Barry Threw
> Media Art and Technology
>
>
> San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
> Email: bthrew@gmail.com
> IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
> http:/www.barrythrew.com
>
>
>
>

–
Keith Manlove
(512) 825-9176
keithmanlove@gmail.com

Myself – i have done work in Max at my various companies… but it was more a means to an end (solving a specific pipeline problem, prototyping something quickly to demonstrate to a co-worker). I can’t really imagine a game company with the resources, understanding, and foresight to hire someone exclusively as a max/msp programmer.

Most of the tool work is done in C#, and the game is coded in C++. If you are an expert at those, and also know Max… that would be your ticket in.

hope that helps,
dan

dan at doctorop dot com

/dan

Quote: doctor op wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 16:46
—————————————————-
> Most of the tool work is done in C#, and the game is coded in C++. If you are an expert at those, and also know Max… that would be your ticket in.
>
> hope that helps,
> dan
—————————————————-

There is the question of the ages.

Short answer, whatever you can get.

For me, it is weighted dependent on:

a) perceived wealth of the client (individual or corporation, profile)
b) possibility of recurring return work
c) how much fun I’m going to have / if there is artistic merit
d) how much money the final product is going to make

With that said, I have a baseline that determined by my cost of
living, and so can’t work for less than that. That being said, I am
insane; I haven’t made my employment choices largely based upon wise
financial planning at this stage in my life. It’s the kind of choice
you have to make.

My only piece of hard advice is to move to an area with a good
scene. For games, San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, LA, New York,
possibly Boston. For art, San Francisco, LA, New York, Montreal,
Berlin, London, Tokyo, and its looking more and more like Mexico
City. There are probably some more.

$0.02

b

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com

wes

That said, some people in this community can supplement their wages well
by doing the occasional MaxMSP consulting/programming gig. If this is
your interest, it helps to live in an area where there are a profusion
of new media artists running around looking for someone to help them
fulfill the requirements of their most recent concept or grant. I don’t
know anybody who pays their rent doing that, but perhaps you will be
more lucky. It’s all pretty much word of mouth, so you will have to be
willing to meet people occasionally.

As for video game dev, I too have talked to some video game sound dudes
that said that MaxMSP or Pd skills were definitely regarded as
beneficial for job opportunities. Mind you, they aren’t the only skills
required of the job, and my information is purely anecdotal. I’ve never
applied for a video game job.

Good luck,
Andrew

b

On Nov 6, 2007, at 3:15 PM, vade wrote:

> Interesting. The closest ive heard is companies like EA developing
> their own in house patching environments, but I did not realize
> people used ‘vanilla’ Max within game dev stuff.
>
> To model GUIs?
>
> Now im scared. Id love to know more – out of curiosity.
>
> I will admit to doing freelance Max/MSP development for various
> clients, but the work is relatively few and far between, but maybe
> thats just me!
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 5:57 PM, barry threw wrote:
>
>> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>>
>> However, consider freelancing!
>>
>> Work makes one free…
>>
>> b
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that
>>> have involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>>>
>>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models
>>> audio engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/
>>> msp and that there was actually a deficit of people versed in
>>> coding, max/msp and studio skills.
>>>
>>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
>>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>>> myself doing all day :p
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Danjel
>>>

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com

b

On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:14 PM, Wesley Smith wrote:

> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this
> for a fact, so there’s at least one instance of a big game using it.
>
> wes

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com

Sorry.

b

On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:

>
> You left out one of the biggest cities for video games! (and where
> I live) Vancouver ;)
>
>

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com

The main piece of advice? Be involved. In whatever area of work you
want to be in, just show up to places where there are more people
that do what you do and attempt to be creative with them. Find
people that do something different than what you do, because they are
the ones that will need you. Diversifying your skill set helps…the
more things you can do, the more things you can find to do. Learn C.

If you are freelance, you basically have to be looking all the time
for opportunities to keep your schedule full. Sometimes this results
in the schedule being too full to do anything else except work 26
hours a day, but that is necessary to keep from having a month long
dry spell.

More random advice that may not be worth anything…

b

On Nov 6, 2007, at 3:16 PM, keith manlove wrote:

> There aren’t exactly opportunities jumping on my lap. Care to expound
> on how you get opportunities, Barry? Maybe it’s cuz I’m just out of
> school, but i feel a bit handicapped in that area.
>
> Keith
>
> On 11/6/07, barry threw wrote:
>> There are, in fact, several game companies doing just that.
>>
>> However, consider freelancing!
>>
>> Work makes one free…
>>
>> b
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Danjel van Tijn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just wondering what jobs/careers people have come across that have
>>> involved heavy use of max/msp? (Asides from academic work)
>>>
>>> I heard for example that the video game industry often models audio
>>> engines or creates helper tools/mock guis etc. out of max/msp and
>>> that there was actually a deficit of people versed in coding, max/
>>> msp and studio skills.
>>>
>>> Any other niche jobs? Creative opportunities? I am exploring
>>> career changes right now and max/msp is something I could picture
>>> myself doing all day :p
>>>
>>>

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com

Be involved in the arts that you want to do, and for a certain subset
of them, Max turns out to be an effective tool for realizing your
projects.

b

On Nov 6, 2007, at 4:19 PM, andrew benson wrote:

> My experience is that potential employers/clients tend to be more
> concerned with what you are capable of producing and how you
> conduct yourself than what software you use. Consider MaxMSP to be
> part of your general toolset for sound design, interactivity,
> theatrical tech, or whatever your focus tends to be. Focus more on
> doing good work and developing a portfolio/resume than on what
> applications you are familiar with.
>
> That said, some people in this community can supplement their wages
> well by doing the occasional MaxMSP consulting/programming gig. If
> this is your interest, it helps to live in an area where there are
> a profusion of new media artists running around looking for someone
> to help them fulfill the requirements of their most recent concept
> or grant. I don’t know anybody who pays their rent doing that, but
> perhaps you will be more lucky. It’s all pretty much word of
> mouth, so you will have to be willing to meet people occasionally.
>
> As for video game dev, I too have talked to some video game sound
> dudes that said that MaxMSP or Pd skills were definitely regarded
> as beneficial for job opportunities. Mind you, they aren’t the
> only skills required of the job, and my information is purely
> anecdotal. I’ve never applied for a video game job.
>
> Good luck,
> Andrew
>
>

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com

I would have to second that since I happened to be one of the people who
worked on the generative/interactive music for Spore. We used PD heavily and
definitely prototyped with max. As far as I can tell though, it’s the only
team in the industry doing anything like it. Hopefully Spore will pave the
way for note-based interactive music in the industry… :)

As for tips on reproducing the lucky break for yourself, I’m not sure I can
help. Maybe most importantly, I met the guys working on the game at a maxmsp
workshop at UC Berkeley and followed up with the inevitable casual business
card exchange. I was also working on a generative music project of my own
that was similar to their method.

I’ll also agree with Andrew Benson about conduct (whom I’ve met at the same
workshop in Berkeley). I’m not sure how Andrew meant what he said, and it’s
hard to explain exactly, but independent of your ability or resume, the
impression you give of yourself is important when somebody is deciding on
whether or not they want to spend a lot of money and time working with you.
The game industry is weird in how it produces negative attitudes from
artists — usually either variations of artistic superiority (you are above
games, a true artist, etc) or desperate adoration (you’ve loved games your
whole life, etc).

Hopefully that was useful… :)

You can hear some of my generative stuff I was doing with max before Spore
if you are curious:

http://www.minuskelvin.com/pythagoras/
(sorry, it’s not a real web page… been meaning to update my site for like
a year. The main page is my non-generative “pop” stuff I was doing a long
while ago.)

Aaron

On Nov 6, 2007 4:14 PM, Wesley Smith wrote:

> The game Spore uses Pd and was heavily prototyped in Max I know this
> for a fact, so there’s at least one instance of a big game using it.
>
> wes
>

from my experience, c++ programmers are going to have a much easier time finding interesting/lucrative work.

it seems that for the last decade or so, computer science programs have been pimping java as the second coming, and neglecting to teach students hardcore c and c++. the result being an overabundance of java programmers and a deficit of c++ programmers.

this just reiterates the point made by others, diversify your skills and you will find work. especially folks that can combine technical wizardry with creativity and artistry.

-rob

Really? I always though that was the worst boss you could possibly have.

;-)

Trond

I know there are a few people at the local interactive science museum — the explOratorium — who are Max users, one position is full time. It is technically a .edu, but not quite a university. There is some call for these skills in the world of interactive exhibit design, although you’d probably want additional fabrication, design, and or electronics chops to go with them.

I’ve done a fair bit of freelance programming, and that is far and away much more common. Almost all of my jobs have come from knowing the right person at the right time. And to meet those people, I did a fair bit of public performance, teaching, etc. It’s hardest to get started, but once you have a reputation for being competent, it gets easier.

I should add to Barry’s billing scheme:

d) How much phone support am I going to have to provide?

I’ve found that more than half of my time is spend explaining to clients how to operate their computers, or in long design meetings. Consider the whole project, not just the time spent programming.

Also, there is the interesting concern of artists wanting you to make their pieces. It is worth deciding early on where your input as a technical assistant stops and when you become a co-creator of a piece. This is a very tricky grey area with no fixed rules.

That being said, I’ve had a lot of fun making things for people.

mz

mz

This is where I draw the line. I am happy to do artistic
collaborations with anyone, but I will not _work_ on a piece (or stop
working on one) where the artist does not have a clear vision of
where they want the piece to go. Not that it can’t change over the
course of the project, but there has to be some vision and clear
aesthetic or conceptual goals or else a system becomes impossible to
design, and you end up with an epic failure of a piece.

b

Barry Threw
Media Art and Technology

San Francisco, CA Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew@gmail.com
IM: captogreadmore (AIM)
http:/www.barrythrew.com

Genau, d’accord, indeed.

Where I get into trouble is the situation where I’m making something for someone who is a good artist, but doesn’t have much technology experience. It seems reasonable for me, as a tech adviser, to give my thoughts on what is possible and not possible in the medium. I sometimes have this dialog:

artist: I want some snazzy process that is like this thing.
mzed: Oh, I just made my own piece that is a little like that, let me show you.
artist: Great, that’s perfect, ship it.

And suddenly, my piece has become their piece, and it’s 80% my fault. It is also uncomfortable to *not* show my work in this situation, though, because I feel like I’m holding back. At least for me, I have to be constantly vigilant about what code I feel artistic ownership over, and what aspects I’m glad to sell as a contractor. I’m sure some of this craziness is because I hold an academic job and am always on the academic job market, which makes me feel that getting my name on my work is somehow important.

If I feel this situation is going to come up in a job, I usually suggest that I change from being a well-paid subcontractor to a less-well-paid artistic collaborator. That is, trade some of my fiscal investment in a project for an aesthetic one. Of course, this only works if the artist has, as Barry says, a clear vision, and a vision that I’m compatible with. These kind of issues have come up in conversations with “musical assistants” I’ve met in various locations. I think every person is different, but it would certainly be a good idea to consider yourself before taking a job. The more you plan ahead, the less likely it is you will find yourself neck deep in a project you are not happy about.

And it is really an old problem. You can go back and read grumbles from members of Duke Ellington’s band because he incorporated their personal, improvisational vocabulary into *his* compositions — which he most certainly did. I don’t know how much of this relates to money, and how much is about ego.

Again, the majority of my collaborations have been happy ones, and I feel lucky to have worked with the people I have worked with. I’m glad to be in a position at the moment where I can choose carefully.

mz