emulating Live's reverb "freeze" function?
So as far as I understand it, "freeze" on Live’s reverb basically starts a full 100% feedback loop inside the reverb.
Do any of you have any experience with treating reverbs like that inside max? I sometimes do some trickery with large racks of live reverbs, but I’m looking to port those into a dedicated device.
There’s a gen patch out there that does it. I think it was called foreververb?
I’ve built patches like these using parallel feedback delays. I do it with three delays per freeze, with relatively prime times. Set feedback to 100%, and ramp up and then down input to capture.
I use one rand~ as an amp lfo on each loop. (I rhink I scale it so it doesn’t go theough zero) This really helps to break up the texture.
All of this is wrapped in a poily~. The reverb approach will of course be smoother, but it will take up more CPU. (Though down sampling could help)
it is as simple as you think: set the feedback to 0.9999 and the input to 0.0 … frozen. :)
or in other words, it should work with most reverb patches.
if you want to exlude or include the first reflections is a matter of taste. including them can become very ugly when freezing for longer than a quarter of a second, but otoh leaving them in reproduces the phase/room feeling of the normal reverb a a bit more.
thanks guys, nice to know I wasn’t completely off base :)
@peter thanks for the relative prime tip, wouldn’t have thought of that straight away, so that helps :) – I’ve made a "delay time complicator" that multiplies by freaky floats, should work alright. – like, for instance, having a 2 3 5 ratio, you’re still going to get coinciding delays at 6 and 10 quite quickly on a "forever" feed.
@roman thanks, I’m trying to strip some things I have way down first, then I’ll give a simple three-delay thing a go. The thing I love about using reverb freezes is that it seems to capture the "essence" of the input sound quite well.
I would be interested to see the fruits of your labour on this
The key for the triple delay approach (and it works best on sounds with a steady state) is to fade the sound in after its attack so you don’t have a bunch of transients in a rhythmic loop.
It’s not as even as a proper reverb, but can work well with careful tuning. Also, since it’s usually less complex, you can run a lot more of them. I do them in a poly~ so I can bring individual ones in and out.
I’ve always used freeverb/freeverb~ for this, and there’s a treasure trove of reverb related stuff at the freeverb3 sourceforge page – http://freeverb3.sourceforge.net – maybe something in there might help?
(ironically, the latest versions of freeverb don’t seem to have the ‘freeze’ function any more)
@roger aah, so the old version may be more hackable for this… interesting!
@peter yeah, I’m hoping to cluster these together so that I don’t get any rhythmic information coming through – I may just up the delay amount a bit, too.
What I’ve done is instead of doing 3 taps on tapout~ I’ve set up three discrete delays and feedback lines, looking forward to doing some testing on this today.
@Brendan :) I’ll keep posting what I’ve got here… especially since I may end up needing help to poly-ize this properly :headdesk: hehe.
ah, very nice, that’s simple enough.
What does the "krt" mean in the diagram, by the way?
2 3 5 is a valid example for primes but not perfect for first reflections.
allpasses at 1./17. 1./29. 1./41 should sound much less metallic. :)
Yeah, the prime part only matters in relationship to each other..maybe better expressed as "minimize the GCD"
be careful to substract one time the vectorsize from the third delay (or from the first)
can you elaborate, Roman? I have no clue what you’re talking about :)
so yeah, this does the basic freezy goodness, but I’m a bit stumped on the diffusion – the delay itself still gets… tonal, metallic, whatever you want to call it?
Any idea on how to approach that part of it? I was thinking that doing some feedback between the delays would work, like in the algo posted above, but if there were specific guidelines I’d love to hear it. I’ll be experimenting with allpasses and such in the interim :)
oh and here’s the simple basic "freeze an input" patch:
----------begin_max5_patcher---------- 1494.3ocyas0aipCD94jeEHdrJajuxk8syuiiVUQR71xpDHBb5oaWs829w2n Iz5VbRvD2pB0WfLymm4aFOP9y7Ywqpel0FG88n+MZ1r+Le1LUWxNlYZOKdWw yq2VzplVbE6+pW8q3E5g3rm4ptu60ttJ2n5PLouAIccVcXW8A9VFWcSfld+Y cEupXGScA+SSYw13SFos7E0HPzRfoa88f+68LsHG2V9Pk3ph9wwOmxptOFjo y8E70OVV8v8Mr0b8ERvnkzEQDXl3dGoaf.KAQ+PdI+c9b4gEWGjvK1WV8ZDF H9wF3f7M3HDf00UUJk1J.A+b.JGgUHSdh7TFPdzC.jPlEHTBYoM.BeSsdFFb HXp7TZlO.m6hHKQY1fEnugketstfe99TP.ViD44JzA4CXQHZa1wZaiRWBH1P GfuQmKvbApgBjxKJK+pvEoxW7.6C.CHhJtsPwM1FYS9MBU9ByELUyv.fJmH0 QIc7nxvDsR9qE.IyNffGM.YUQ0CwKd24y1zgP01LJGKRxUY4vdoXyZagoSri EnAnMWb4DnTsq.Bp4QocGuH8Za4SrkOTHh01oGOUz71h2GG8DM+SxOg9lj2H tMbVy8rphUaYmpUCiJh+S9mlMcgTRZu.VUCTQRUK9Dkg.DmHwJyE0V7Day8E bdS4pCb1w+q0.ZFTShKaOvp+YW2c8ephtst5gOG65M01Gqa3NN2NbBXYrcBf PN12RAKsOdgZ4Ow5nkUkbo6oBr.GgkdS5fXRs7eqWAI5wUVYcmNSSNA5xqqr E9gNPzY67DWJu.lHORe63nl.xqB3zZR8IgZV8FeELVEuMA5o.sPPWjVwQQ58 QptrBUfvKtKMQmMRhh0ERH9Hv61xJ1qhLRrBJvuNdynY+70Qcc.hzIxpySYz yu25Flw4gpuENG58cL+IXRVvhIZSCuhIekmDlF5dRcI4qYjmTOofs1SXHv6V MCU6ILLjK9TFBd6K9DJTq9jAc7Z0mFr1k4gr8SJL+1a+.BU6GC5LN1Ohc2J9 bsZhj80Amrs4ZvHWCyKttKckripPGJvOU3ktLEZE5PAZIdy0dTdsBu2EgWdL M3dvRnV46b8Nv8LrfVBSsBKfPEVfHuCKCDnJneFaIvzadXpPMHkAaFmfTrW1 TXsx2o1UevkU2oDcF8WY4r+r5NsdKqnwZIGIgWQlRz1zX3IwO+PMlT2U0Fbe 2aff5FJ6uOL0VenYcmL8VNFQGqD9FVKurpfWVWc5rf8lzika1vpNcYdSYqLA DEjBrth4r.AcQdvSm7fcQdHCHO6J2rutrhaVkxMu6D5BHRS0r68aAz9.ZNeU qiBw3ocDWzNz4occxr9YYm.verENSsALCNnZ4CsSVcmqewaLg6jw.uGQABEZ datXPdl1iXwt0jdaZNzN6wdsv4pSInDk8nrkWrGchrUVYfyR+RPCoeFtkTCo RuVFcOEk4WcO2ISM3Yx0ne2GLZTesseqLP5GaYz8LLvq5Nvok8rIyMS9IAGR dnjIUdFBexmNRHpK4fLsqVnAChAlL4wMGY5DtdQFEpkIWhP4AVlGjd7BCR9R Q4mlFKM6sVdIUUW0.vEqAmz5loAmc3eiTaRotKLtuRo1Mc3bCi2WG5BGeS0A z0nAcIR5IMvo0f2ok9jcg3P9DoCvsLtRCvAoYhXdGedWi0EIIoGuahmRbGL9 Zfgkpi2s6ky0VKOGUAiFesyveMQZv3GUry9hlb55w6ZANMhIEbis8.iqs2Do cnwW6dms2sS6bpxRAVF4SXg2HPmigCmHIxopTPlv0L2JeKNO3jnrfShlvZbi QNupAGWdM.Q+VARTyDP7DqsaOgpIjKwonjZqxQNGMSEjMeyZ70CoB4VEm.S3 iMwsB4iBNIBFbRzTtpgBMOWDL3rrAgUdaNGc6B1+LseVw1X1vX2Y1zuLFE62 +Dqo0HhJEKdWwupaTeA7VnZVVoapd+RhaXOU1Me02d13hl0OVxYq4GZzuyIO mkDOW94724+e.JWPC -----------end_max5_patcher-----------
what i mean is … feeding back introduces a change to the desired delay times … not sure if it applies. :)
@wetterberg Krt controls reverb time. But when you implement the RevNetwork as the All-Pass Reverberator in the other scheme, you don’t need Krt. That image comes from http://www.spinsemi.com/knowledge_base/effects.html#Delay_effects.
Is KRT a gain stage?
krt. krt. krrrrrt.
Is KRT a gain stage?
yeah, that’s what I’m wondering; not what it does in the algorithm, but which mathematical function it represents.
reverb time is usually controlled by the feedbacks amplification …