Forums > MaxMSP

forum synonymous with stupidity?

April 20, 2006 | 1:52 pm

I really like the new forum for being accessible/searchable/convenient and all that jazz, but to me, and this is based on nothing at all, the amount of just flat out stupid posts seems relatively overwhelming. Can’t we like kick off people that haven’t read the damn tutorials or don’t know how to use stuffit?

While the mailing list was the primary means of interMAX communication, it seemed there were a lot more "worthy" topics being posted, now its like n00b town. Ok, now I’m just beating a dead horse, but I find myself jaded at this forum and its crappy topics/reads lately.

_james



f.e
April 20, 2006 | 2:06 pm

I’ve the same strange feeling these days (even got 350 mails late !).
Without saying i have a problem with noobs at all (we’re all noobs on
something, and it last long for max !), it’s right that the subjects are
a little bit low-minded these days…

Maybe it’s just me…

Anyway, glad to see all these new kids wanting to do the dj with max :-O

f.e


April 20, 2006 | 2:21 pm

yes, we are all n00bs. The more I learn about max the more I want to know, and the more I realize I know absoultely nothing about not only IT, but pretty much everything. deep stuff, man. Anyways, it IS pretty lowminded around here of late. On the mailing list there seemed to be all my max "heros" having conversations. You know, the big 3rd party developers as well as 1st party support really having it out. Now, like you said, its clubby kid douche bag "I wanna DJ with Max" bullcrap that just drives me crazy. It reminds me the Cubase forums.


April 20, 2006 | 2:21 pm

i totally agree. i ranted about the forum a lot in the beginning but
nothing has been done.. some kind of n00b forum not mirrored on the
mailing list would be nice.. my inbox has a bellyache and i get pissed
off when people ask about "an object that sends a 1 and then a 0 when
clicked"…….. there is no other way to learn max than to read the doc
and do the tutorials, but these people just don’t get it..

anyway..

jm


April 20, 2006 | 2:35 pm

(this was originally going to be the answer to another
post, but it seems even more appropriate here…)

Perhaps it’s time for a new section on the forum, for
"Students Needing Help with Assignments that are Due
in Next Week" ?

My experience of working with students has led me to
the conclusion that, a) they always start work at the
last possible moment, thereby not allowing time for
things like reading the FM, and b) ask questions first
before eventually reading the FM as a last resort,
‘cos surely that’s what support staff/forums are there
for anyway?

Sorry if that seems a rather harsh generalisation, but
I spend much of my working day smiling politely and
trying to be helpful, when what i want to say is
"RTFM!"
I really don’t want to be doing that on my favourite
mailing list too ;-)
cheers
Roger


April 20, 2006 | 2:47 pm

You know,
even though bine~ told me to ‘fuck off’ while ‘sucking his balls’ (which is really fuckiing lame), I agree. There should be a place for ‘stupid’ questions from people who are beginning that won’t waste the time of people who don’t want to deal with them.


April 20, 2006 | 2:50 pm

While this may be true, I think it’s important to remember that we were
at one point all new to the software, and to try to be tolerant of (and
excited by) the appearance of new users on these lists.

It’s incumbent upon the more experienced users of the software (and the
list) to help train the newcomers, with as gentle a guiding hand as
possible. RTFM might be the appropriate response in many, but certainly
not in all newbie situations.

One of the reasons for the switch to an online forum was to make new
users feel welcome, and to make the wisdom of the hive mind available to
all. Please join us in this effort, and help those learning the basics
of complex software become as good and self-sufficient as you wish they
were!

jb


April 20, 2006 | 2:51 pm

wow, what a load of self-aggrandizing, elitist whining.
next time you’re new to something, i hope your potential mentors, teachers, or colleagues generalize you as ‘stupid’ in a public forum.


April 20, 2006 | 3:01 pm

hey everybody.

i delete a lot of posts that are not from "newbies" b/c they are not
relevant to my projects, contain no hidden gems of info, or are
actually plugs for people’s own externals, and I don’t send a post
compaining about it. these "newbies" can probably learn from posts
from "non-newbies" that are relevant to their projects, do contain
hidden gems, or plug a 3rd-party external that saves their lives. if
you don’t want to bother with someone’s post, or an entire thread,
delete it (or filter it). it takes less time than maxmsp. or do it
in max and post it.

jeez.


April 20, 2006 | 3:10 pm

I joined the mailing list when it was still only email based sometime last year and am grateful for the amount of help and tutoring I have received from the more knowledgable users in this forum and all users in general. Some of the ways of programming efficiently in MaxMsp arent necessarily evident from the manual no matter how many times you read, that comes through experience and creative thinking.

I would also agree though that quite alot of questions ARE clearly answered in the manual. I get slightly p’d off when people on my course and that live in my student halls (especially there as I am constantly being asked) ask me simple questions which they would get from the manual. I still help them out generally as it allows me to get on with my work, but lately I have increasingly been asking them "Did you read the manual and google for any relevant information?".

So I do see the annoying side of it but often its just a matter of gently helping people in the right direction. And to the remark about people wanting to make Dj patches, I see that as a perfectly reasonable type of patch/projet. Its just a trend which many people are interested in and surely it can only be a good thing if they are getting into Max/MSp right?
When I finish my final project, which I hand in later on in May I will be posting a link to its standalone file and possibly submitting it to C47/share.

Will


April 20, 2006 | 3:20 pm

> some kind of n00b forum not mirrored on the
> mailing list would be nice..

Who will then answer ?

Are we maybe jealous of those students wanting to do something else than
patching and/or working ? for example music(I’m in that case !) /
traveling / reading / drawing / fighting against f*** google, microsoft
& apple / swimming / playing soccer (I’m not in that case but why not ?) ?

It’s so easy to answer simple questions with just the name of the object
+ 1 line advising to read the doc.

I loose more time in reading stupid posts about mac/pc, forum/mailing
list,… than in reading newbie questions.

Please, be modest.

Léo


April 20, 2006 | 3:34 pm

you are totally right. guess i’m just having a bad day and needed to vent..

peace to all newbies, i’ll try to remember the time when i was one when
answering posts from now on.

jm


April 20, 2006 | 3:36 pm

I’m new to the software– heck, I haven’t built anything yet (still going
through said tutorials). I understand while it can be irritating to see
"hello, I need to DJ with max tomorrow and how do you do it?" it’s also
irritating to get "rtfm" as a response to legitimate questions. Use of the
word ‘n00b’ is total crap, and signifies a sort of elitist mindset that
pervades certain communities (Linux, I am looking in your direction).

The "I wanna DJ with Max" people will likely drop off when they figure out
that the whole Max thing is a little more complicated than they thought–
like it or not, computer based music is now a fairly easy thing to do, and
the people looking for a quick fix will go back to Live and Reason (great
tools, by the way)… Maybe they heard of Max because their musical hero
uses it.

But there are folk who want to learn, and sometimes the tutorials don’t
teach everything they can, or teach an idea in a way that doesn’t ‘click’,
and may ask questions that seem obvious, or may be ‘thinking past the
problem’.

That having been said a ‘hey, I’m new’ forum might not be the worst idea,
assuming that vets are willing to go into it and be helpful– otherwise, it
will quickly become a ghetto, and people will use the non new forum because
the new one is just a junkheap.

Todd

http://www.cntr-band.com/index.htm


April 20, 2006 | 3:45 pm

The other thing that might not go amiss is a stickied "hey, read this" in
the forums which identifies what Max is/is not, and how the list is
structured, and what manner of questions it’s for.

Thanks,

T

http://www.cntr-band.com/index.htm


April 20, 2006 | 3:58 pm

Do you know what I find much more annoying and distressing than newbie
questions? The outright nastiness and hostility that many of you display
to new users. I also find the pretentious, preening elitism on display
to be sickening. This discussion is not a private club, and it is
certainly not your personal toilet to spew verbal diarrhea into. For
folks who seem to take a lot of aesthetic pride in the fact that you
interact with the discussion via mailing list, you sure do seem to come
up mysteriously ignorant when it comes to using the delete key.

The bottom line is, the forums are not going away, and no amount of
"venting" is going to make them go away. I will say this — if you
*cannot* employ a respectful, moderate tone when posting to this
discussion, you may find yourself temporarily banned from both the forum
and the mailing list.

Todd’s statement that "The "I wanna DJ with Max" people will likely drop
off when they figure out that the whole Max thing is a little more
complicated than they thought" is right on the money. That being said, I
would much rather see a "newbie" figure out that Max isn’t for them
based on the "complicated" factor rather than the "all the people on
this forum are assholes" factor.

w



f.e
April 20, 2006 | 4:11 pm

woooohoooooou ! Yeah !!! Another noob mutiny ! Debout time ! Come get
some ! Ammo, ammo ! Reload ! Shift-click, strafe, headshots ! Respawn !
;-)))))))

ahemm… yes ?

f.e

f.e chanfrault | aka | personal computer music
> >>>>>> http://www.personal-computer-music.com
> >>>>>> |sublime music for a desperate people|


April 20, 2006 | 4:14 pm

I’m teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my students
that the list is a great resource, but if they’re going to post, it had
better be after thoroughly consulting the documentation and help files.
I would imagine that many of the people here are teachers of Max as
well as users, so similar warnings (for those who haven’t already)
might help things out as well.

Peter McCulloch


April 20, 2006 | 4:30 pm

The forum is great, especially for people with the computer ability to
help themselves, but I think we could agree that classes, for many of
us, myself included, have been helpful at some point. For those of you
in the NYC area for whom RTFM hasn’t helped (or it has, but you’re not
sure about the next steps…) and are interested, I teach private
Max/MSP lessons (and have done so for the last 4 years) at very
reasonable rates. (especially when compared to the University hourly
tuition)

If you’re interested, please contact me off-list. Those of you who
are not interested, please pardon this brief ad for max-related
services.

thanks,

Peter McCulloch



VG
April 20, 2006 | 4:36 pm


April 20, 2006 | 4:41 pm

i have been working with Max/Msp for 4 or 5 years now and only recently felt confident enough to contribute to this community. these rather hostile anti-newcomer comments tend to reinforce my feelings of insecurity, but won’t deter me from offering suggestions to people i think i might be able to help out. requests for the bleeding obvious i can happily ignore without any inconvenience to myself.


April 20, 2006 | 4:45 pm

On 20 Apr 2006, at 17:14, Peter McCulloch wrote:

> I’m teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my
> students that the list is a great resource, but if they’re going to
> post, it had better be after thoroughly consulting the
> documentation and help files.

Joshua often posts a link to Eric Raymond’s "How To Ask Questions The
Smart Way" paper.

Here it is again: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

nick rothwell — composition, systems, performance — http://
http://www.cassiel.com


April 20, 2006 | 5:16 pm

>I’m teaching an MSP class right now, and I make it clear to my >students
>that the list is a great resource, but if they’re going to post, >it had
>better be after thoroughly consulting the documentation and help >files.
>I would imagine that many of the people here are teachers of Max >as
>well as users, so similar warnings (for those who haven’t already)
>might help things out as well.

I guess you are giving your students the right advice Peter.
I am a Max user since 6-7 years now. when i started at the fine arts school of Cergy in Paris i was pretty much left on my own , had no programming background at all and a very weak knowledge of computers in general : i was completely lost ! i spent patiently my time reading the manuals ( when they were still printed out…) in the subway , learning both Max and English at the same time !
Later on i had the chance to meet Jash and Jeremy Bernstein from whom i received great guidance . I am still learning on a daily basis.
Since two and half years i have been teaching introductory classes and got a few max related jobs here and there.
The issue is that in most art schools i came across Max has been introduced very recently and/or there was not always an experienced faculty member teaching it, which often leaves the students on their own.
Max since the introduction of Jitter has made a huge blow in the New Media scene and we will see more and more users , more and more newbies asking the same question again and again and again .

i think it is an indication that a light, synthetized , extremely basic tutorial needs to be created which gives you a very quick hands on. i am working on one that i will post in the next couple of weeks .
I find for example Andrew’s Jitter recipes a great ressource. They are clear, well documented. Maybe more of these should be put online .Plus we all have different approaches and tricks that could be gathered somewhere , sort of a database of patches that users could consult . I understand it is what the forum is supposed to do but it is clear that the forum will be soon overflowed by newcomers and that something could be done about it to handle it before oldtimers , from whom i/the community learn a lot, start participating less in the forum.

we should not forget that not everybody speaks english, not everybody has the same experience with computers, and not everybody has a teacher nearby so it is obvious that people will use the forum to find quick responses and appropirate guidance.

till then enjoy this day.

k


April 20, 2006 | 5:23 pm

cheers to that.

one of the more embarrassing aspects of the forum’s porting to a web
bbs is that it’s much easier for me to go back and look at my history
on the max list, and recoil with horror when i am reminded about just
how much of a n00b i was in 2000.

so more people are discovering max now. quelle catastrophe!

many things could be worse. people could be leaving the environment
in droves, f’rinstance.


April 20, 2006 | 6:44 pm

>> I really like the new forum for being accessible/searchable/convenient and all that jazz, but to me, and this is based on nothing at all, the amount of just flat out stupid posts seems relatively overwhelming. Can’t we like kick off people that haven’t read the damn tutorials or don’t know how to use stuffit?

this has been discussed before, please search the
archives before you are asking.

and please make surre to put "OT" in the subject for
off topic posts.

-110 (the forum police)


April 21, 2006 | 2:10 am

i’m trying to do a polite threadjacking here… guess i’ll also tack on
an "excessively long post" warning.

Mark Pauley wrote:
> I would think that were I to attempt an implementation of scrambled
> hackz it would take me at least 1 month to do it right. If you don’t
> know max, figure an extra month in. Time for you to use a bit of
> the

I’ve been learning Max/MSP through a serious project for four years now
in my spare time. I’m not brilliant but I’m also not a dunce. A month
sounds terribly optimistic to me.

I think it’s a bit more time consuming than that for most people who do
not have a solid CS background (architecture and logic), full-time
dedication, exceptionally good recall, long attention span and few
distractions, good working habits, et cetera (I’m sure this list is
missing a few attributes).

I think this is where part of the vitriol on the list emerges. It’s
frustrating to put a lot of effort into learning something over a period
of years, to spend those years gleaning all sorts of knowledge and skill
from a great mailing list, and then to have that source of so much
inspiration and advancement suddenly degenerate into a high-volume
frenzy of uninformed questions – even if only through the actions of a few.

There’s nothing wrong with beginner questions. It’s the laziness that
chafes. I will happily steer anyone to [toggle] or [route] if
they’re having momentary brain problems, but I will get annoyed if the
same person asks that same type of question every day.

It’s frustrating to know that there are people out there who are going
to be granted degrees based in large part on the kindness of this list’s
resident mentors/tutors. I am particularly annoyed by someone
modularizing a final project into a series of questions and then
assembling the response patches into a final project. That certainly
has value, but it’s not worthy of a degree.

Back in the old days, when I had all my teeth and so did George
Washington, we didn’t have classes in Max/MSP. We sat in our little
rooms and communed with our list and spent hours with search engines and
documentation. We were afraid to ask stupid questions (as per the
oft-cited definition) and we tried to prove our credibility and future
value to the community. We made monstrous and inefficient patches. We
discovered the proper use of documentation.

We read every post because it was worth it. A lot of us still do.

We did not expect to function on the level of our patching heroes after
a month, and we understood that elegance and functionality are derived
from experience or hard work or genius… or all three.

We had patience. And it seems the greatest test of our patience is
going to be those who haven’t learned that skill yet – those who haven’t
put enough effort in to realize just how big their big ideas are.

In short:
It’s not easy. Don’t expect it to be. Expect it to take a lot of time
and effort. Don’t sign up for unreasonable deadlines.

Todd Elliott suggested:
> The other thing that might not go amiss is a stickied "hey, read
> this" in the forums which identifies what Max is/is not, and how the
> list is structured, and what manner of questions it’s for.

Right on. I think what we’re missing here is that the mailing list
enforced a kind of exposure to culture before participation became
possible. The forum does no such thing. When I first started reading
the list, my impression was that there were a lot of pretentious people
here… but that changed a little. Yes, some people seem pretentious -
but given their contributions, I don’t care. I’ll take them out for a
beer, coffee, seven course meal, whatever, the instant I get the
opportunity. They’ve hugely improved the quality of my musical life,
and my musical life is the greater part of me. My respect exceeded my
annoyance with their style to the point where the annoyance has disappeared.

-j


April 21, 2006 | 4:38 am

dlurk wrote:

> I think this is where part of the vitriol on the list emerges. It’s
> frustrating to put a lot of effort into learning something over a period
> of years, to spend those years gleaning all sorts of knowledge and skill
> from a great mailing list, and then to have that source of so much
> inspiration and advancement suddenly degenerate into a high-volume
> frenzy of uninformed questions – even if only through the actions of a few.

The next time you’re feeling like a newbie has unfairly benefited from
your hard work or is asking "stupid", RTFM-type questions, consider
this: without a steady influx of new users, Cycling 74 withers and dies.
The more new users we see, the better it is for you old-timers, because
that means more bugs fixed, more new features, a quicker path to Max 5,
Max 6, Max 7, etc. The fact is, the forum option has made us much more
accessible to the new user, and that is a very good thing.

We love newbies, and if you love Cycling and want to see us thrive, then
it would be in your best interest to show some love to the beginners
too. Rather than have a hard-ass attitude about them, guide them gently
towards the correct way of being a part of this community: Send them a
private email with suggestions about the best way to get their question
answered. Respond to what you consider to be inanity with kindly-worded
requests for clarification. Take the time every once in a while to
answer an "easy" question from them. Make them feel welcome and like
they belong. Finally, never, ever use the list to "vent". Take up
martial arts or start a blog if you need to vent, and make this
community the last place you resort to when you need emotional release.

If you do these things, you contribute to the community, and you give
that much more value to your investment. When you whine or complain
incessantly about "newbies" and how they didn’t have to walk to school
barefoot in the snow, you do that much more to tear it down, to devalue
your investment.

New users, and their questions, are quite simply in everyone’s best
interest. They’ll only "ruin" or "degenerate" this community if you work
towards it’s demise with thoughtless, angry reactions to their
existence. Don’t alienate the new user when you could instead help them
to be a responsible member of the community.

cheers

w


April 21, 2006 | 8:56 am

wallace winfrey wrote:
> dlurk wrote:
>
>> I think this is where part of the vitriol on the list emerges. It’s
>> frustrating to put a lot of effort into learning something over a period
>> of years, to spend those years gleaning all sorts of knowledge and skill
>
> The next time you’re feeling like a newbie has unfairly benefited from
> your hard work or is asking "stupid", RTFM-type questions, consider
> this: without a steady influx of new users, Cycling 74 withers and dies.

If this is a response to me personally, I should clarify my point of view.

Yes, I agree. I was clumsily attempting to say that it takes time to
learn Max well enough, and that there are no shortcuts to understanding.

My curmudgeonly griping about the old days was half tongue-in-cheek; the
part that was serious was a commentary on the relative ease with which
an established mailing list can maintain coherence and community
standards when compared to a new web forum. (Though I am a little
confused about why the ‘new’ people were not on the list in the first
place – it seems as if many were not. I don’t understand why the forum
is so much more accessible.) I think there is a cultural trend here
that’s worth studying, albeit on some sociology list rather than this one.

I mean, seriously: I *am* a newbie. I’ve been practicing Max off and on
for four years and I still hesitate to post my work; I think about all
the far more skillful people around the world who will possibly lose
precious minutes of their day loading up my occasional inelegant and
stupendously misguided hacks. I’m sure there are plenty of people
around who learned more in two weeks than I learned in a year, and some
of those people have been doing this since the IRCAM days. But when I
post, I am usually trying to give something back. If someone benefits
from my work, then I hope to hear about it and gain a little satisfaction.

And honestly, I think most people here do the same, though there will
always be elitists.

The point was and is that a certain amount of frustration is
understandable – and perhaps it would help if new users understood the
reasons for it. (I’m sure they don’t enjoy it.) I agree that it should
be controlled in this public environment. Nastiness is never excusable.

There are always new user questions on the list. If memory serves, most
of them are addressed gracefully and often thoroughly by at least one
competent old-timer… and often by C74 staff. I suppose C74′s course
should serve as the model for us all. At the same time I believe there
is a reason this discussion has exploded at this particular time. How
many times can one user be politely advised to read the manual and
tutorials before someone loses their cool? (Yes, your advice still
applies.) How many times should the same question be answered in the
same week? How many of the older users will give up and unsubscribe?

Maybe C74 needs a chatbot. ;)

I’ll shut up now. I’m done. My sincere apologies if the digest is
working, though I imagine any remaining subscribers are already
self-medicating.


April 21, 2006 | 9:41 am

On 21-Apr-2006, at 6:38, wallace winfrey wrote:
> We love newbies, and if you love Cycling and want to see us thrive,
> then
> it would be in your best interest to show some love to the beginners
> too.

Yes, I love newbies, too. Maybe more like potential love (newbies
won’t really understand the value of 3rd party externals until
they’re past the newbie stage) mixed in with a general αγάπε. But
anyway…

…despite all Freedom, Love, Peace, and Music: it is nevertheless a
little frustrating to see the same MAX101 question asked three times
in a week. Understandable? Maybe. Arguably, real newbies are not only
often overwhelmed by the 1000-page documentation, they probably find
the mass of messages on the forum just as frightening. But it is
sometimes astounding that people don’t see what was already answered
just two posts earlier.

So I’m going to repeat my recent suggestion (that no one from The
Company has responded to so far):

How about a FAQ?

Not just the generic FUDforum FAQ, but a FAQ covering the dozen-or-so
most common basic Max questions, plus maybe two or three about list-
specific issues (f’rinstance: "Why don’t my attachments make it to
the forum?").

There might even be a place for a newbie FAQ *and* a slightly-more-
advanced FAQ, if a shorter FAQ would encourage more newbies to read it.

– P.

————– http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/ ————-
Peter Castine +–> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter

iCE: Sequencing, Recording & |home | chez nous|
Interface Building for |bei uns | i nostri|
Max/MSP Extremely cool http://www.castine.de

http://www.dspaudio.com/


April 21, 2006 | 11:36 am

On 21-Apr-2006, at 11:41, Peter Castine wrote:

> How about a FAQ?

Oh, erm, there is one already.

My excuse, lame as it may seem, for not having previously noticed
this is that the "good" one is in Support, whereas in Community-
>Forums (what a ghastly plural form, sometimes I despise accepted
modern English usage; but I digress) as I was saying, in Community-
>Forums there is the eye-catching icon that leads to the not-very-
interesting FUDforum FAQ.

My apologies to Andrew, Lilli, et alia.

That said, there is still room to make the FAQ more accessible and
useful, both for newcomers and old-hands. There are some frequent
newbie questions that, IMVHO, could well be faqified. I don’t know if
they’re already there, but I sure couldn’t find ‘em. Forum
attachments? How to time duration between two events? DSP disabled
with audio loops? Fragloader -2804? (and not just the Combo Updater
issue: there are still plenty of can’t find Qs).

Blushingly and constructively yours,
Peter

————– http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/ ————-
Peter Castine +—> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
Heavy-Duty Mathematics for Everyday Use
iCE: Sequencing, Recording &
Interface Building for |home | chez nous|
Max/MSP Extremely cool |bei uns | i nostri|
http://www.dspaudio.com/ http://www.castine.de


April 21, 2006 | 12:07 pm

This list is populated with mostly kind, gentle and generous people.
Obvious questions from newbies who have obviously not done the tutorials or
read the help and documentation are frustrating but remember we were all
there once.

A gentle reminder to RTM is always in order. I use it so often with my
students that I plan to set it to music. I used to have a print in my
office of a small herd of zebra grazing behind a large fallen tree trunk in
the foreground. One of the animals is positioned tail raised with his butt
pointing directly at the "camera." My caption read, "Before you ask, look
it up."

This is also a two-edged sword. Every once in a while a newbie poses a
question that reminds me of a long forgotten object or causes me to say to
myself, "I don’t know that either."

Cheers,
Gary Lee Nelson
TIMARA Department
Oberlin College
http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson


April 21, 2006 | 5:51 pm

Vincent Goudard wrote:
> …. mmh, one should admit this is a pretty basic piece of patch.
> useful though, in plenty of situations.
> Long life to stupidity!
> It makes people think and give ‘m ideas!

Thanks for that patch, I like this attitude: for EVERY problem there’s a
max patch…

By the way I would like to have added a chat room on the cycling site, I
think there does exist already one somewhere else, but forgot where.
Forum only users could easily just read the answers to their own
questions and ignore anything else in the hope they get a quick answer
as if they were chatting. But this is better to be posted on a chat
channel. Personally I do not like this form of communication too much,
but just watching my kids doing it makes me wonder if this would be a
way to go. Those much too basic questions would more likely move there
than on the list. They also do not add any significant information to
the archives, and a chat would not be archived. The more heavy into
details going questions would more likely be posted on the forum/list.

I think in general there is no way around the forum. The oldsters do
benefit from it as the newbies do. It will bind more people to the
community and the software we all love, it will make cycling more
healthy as they can sell more Max copies, this will help the further
developement. Its just that its all within our own responsibility to
teach not only Max but also the smart way to ask, and the smart way to
answer, which is not easy either.

my 2.7… cent

Stefan

[][] [][][] [][] [][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

Stefan Tiedje
Klanggestalter
Electronic Composition
&
Improvisation

/~~~~~
\ /|() ()|
))))) )| | |( \
/// _/)/ )))))
___/ ///

————————-x—-
–_____———–|———–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()—-
– _|_)—-|—–()———–
———-()————x—–

14, Av. Pr. Franklin Roosevelt,
94320 Thiais, France
Phone at CCMIX +33-1-57 42 91 09


April 30, 2006 | 2:39 pm

Peter Castine wrote:
> My excuse, lame as it may seem, for not having previously noticed this
> is that the "good" one is in Support, whereas in Community- >Forums
> (what a ghastly plural form, sometimes I despise accepted modern
> English usage; but I digress) as I was saying, in Community- >Forums
> there is the eye-catching icon that leads to the not-very- interesting
> FUDforum FAQ.

This just triggers an idea, which would be at least for the newbie forum
users a big help…

What if I type in a subject for a question to be sent to the forum, some
intelligent bot will analyze it, and before sending the topic the site
will suggest to the user to read the following threads before sending
the question off. Sometime just pointing to entries in the FAQ/Manual.
After that returning to the choice of sending or disgarding…

It would have two effects: It would stop some of the most obvious newbie
questions to show up in the list, and it would drive the more advanced
users to use the list (which will make their life more effective and
what they probably do anyway… ;-)…

I know, this is not a trivial task, but some AI doctorand could want to
make it to her masters thesis…
Most tricky probably to safely recognize intelligent questions. which
must not point to the resources. Could be based on word counts in
subjects, if its rare, search the archive, show the hits, if it hits
some keywords directly point to FAQ/Manual/help file, paste a helpfile
into the copybuffer, to directly be able to load it into Max…
Put up some rating for threads, also good for searching, if you define
yourself as advanced, a search result would not show threads marked as
"newbie thread". If you define yourself as newbie, you could leave out
some "advanced threads" in the search result…

To not pop up extra windows, the part where you hit the "submit" button
would highlight some extra links, if there seems to be relevant
information, the "submit" button would read something like "I did go
through all the tutorials, searched the archives, and know the FAQ by
heart and still just want to submit" But only if you did not use any of
the other links, elsewise it would show something like "Thank you, that
you took the time to verify that the information you are asking isn’t
there already, this will keep your community alive and strong…"

All this would only apply to new topics, not for replies…

(I write this without even looking at the forum, I guess nothing like
that exists on any forum in the world (should patent it…))

Stefan

[][] [][][] [][] [][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

Stefan Tiedje
Klanggestalter
Electronic Composition
&
Improvisation

/~~~~~
\ /|() ()|
))))) )| | |( \
/// _/)/ )))))
___/ ///

————————-x—-
–_____———–|———–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()—-
– _|_)—-|—–()———–
———-()————x—–

14, Av. Pr. Franklin Roosevelt,
94320 Thiais, France
Phone at CCMIX +33-1-57 42 91 09


April 30, 2006 | 2:40 pm

Peter Castine wrote:
> My excuse, lame as it may seem, for not having previously noticed this
> is that the "good" one is in Support, whereas in Community- >Forums
> (what a ghastly plural form, sometimes I despise accepted modern
> English usage; but I digress) as I was saying, in Community- >Forums
> there is the eye-catching icon that leads to the not-very- interesting
> FUDforum FAQ.

This just triggers an idea, which would be at least for the newbie forum
users a big help…

What if I type in a subject for a question to be sent to the forum, some
intelligent bot will analyze it, and before sending the topic the site
will suggest to the user to read the following threads before sending
the question off. Sometime just pointing to entries in the FAQ/Manual.
After that returning to the choice of sending or disgarding…

It would have two effects: It would stop some of the most obvious newbie
questions to show up in the list, and it would drive the more advanced
users to use the list (which will make their life more effective and
what they probably do anyway… ;-)…

I know, this is not a trivial task, but some AI doctorand could want to
make it to her masters thesis…
Most tricky probably to safely recognize intelligent questions. which
must not point to the resources. Could be based on word counts in
subjects, if its rare, search the archive, show the hits, if it hits
some keywords directly point to FAQ/Manual/help file, paste a helpfile
into the copybuffer, to directly be able to load it into Max…
Put up some rating for threads, also good for searching, if you define
yourself as advanced, a search result would not show threads marked as
"newbie thread". If you define yourself as newbie, you could leave out
some "advanced threads" in the search result…

To not pop up extra windows, the part where you hit the "submit" button
would highlight some extra links, if there seems to be relevant
information, the "submit" button would read something like "I did go
through all the tutorials, searched the archives, and know the FAQ by
heart and still just want to submit" But only if you did not use any of
the other links, elsewise it would show something like "Thank you, that
you took the time to verify that the information you are asking isn’t
there already, this will keep your community alive and strong…"

All this would only apply to new topics, not for replies…

(I write this without even looking at the forum (I avoid going on
websites if there’s only a dial up connection), I guess nothing like
that exists on any forum in the world (should patent it…))

Stefan

[][] [][][] [][] [][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

Stefan Tiedje
Klanggestalter
Electronic Composition
&
Improvisation

/~~~~~
\ /|() ()|
))))) )| | |( \
/// _/)/ )))))
___/ ///

————————-x—-
–_____———–|———–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()—-
– _|_)—-|—–()———–
———-()————x—–

14, Av. Pr. Franklin Roosevelt,
94320 Thiais, France
Phone at CCMIX +33-1-57 42 91 09


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