Michele Verità

Dear all, i've searched archives and googled the net for days for that..there are patches around (even the granular example in the max folder) but none fully satisfying for me since i need clean playback not granular effects right now..my attempts:

1- i've built a patch upon sakonda grain: according to my tastes to avoid metallic and comb effects, 2 overlapping grains are enough (i know i could use up to 8 or + grains , each with a proper phase,but i prefer some "flam" artifacts rather than metallic) and i divide the sample length with the desired number of slices (i.e 4,8,16,32 etc) to get grain length

-it seems to me that grains sometimes do not keep the right phase distance so i get that undesired chorus, phaser effect 

-the first grain/slice of the loop is always cancelled because the play position it's locked with sah 0. to the windowing phasor with 0.5 phase offset..

2- i've built a patch based on wolek's granular toolkit objects grain.phase and phasor.shift, using only 2 overlapping grains

the result sounds aesthetically pleasant to me

-i would like to do all without externals if possible at this point, then i could use externals eventually for efficiency

actually this is becoming an hot issue for me!

Dear all, i've searched archives and googled the net for days for that..there are patches around (even the granular example in the max folder)  but none fully satisfying for me since i need clean playback not granular effects right now..my attempts:

1- i've built a patch upon sakonda grain: according to my tastes to avoid metallic and comb effects, 2 overlapping grains are enough (i know i could use up to 8 or + grains , each with a proper phase,but i prefer  some "flam" artifacts rather than metallic) and i divide the sample length with the desired number of slices (i.e 4,8,16,32 etc) to get grain length 

problems: 
-it seems to me that grains sometimes do not keep the right phase distance so i get that undesired chorus, phaser effect 
-the first grain/slice of the loop is always cancelled because the play position it's locked with sah 0. to the windowing phasor with 0.5 phase offset..

2- i've built a patch based on wolek's granular toolkit objects grain.phase and phasor.shift, using only 2 overlapping grains
the result sounds aesthetically pleasant to me

problems:
-i would like to do all without externals if possible at this point, then i could use externals eventually for efficiency

actually this is becoming an hot issue for me!
any help would be greatly appreciated
best
michele


granular-time-stretch-pitch-shift

> problems: -it seems to me that grains sometimes do not keep the right

> phase distance so i get that undesired chorus, phaser effect -the

> first grain/slice of the loop is always cancelled because the play

> position it's locked with sah 0. to the windowing phasor with 0.5

You could try to differ the length and starting point of the grains by 

analysing zero crossings and then syncronize the next grain to the old 

one, a bit like a dj is syncing the beats of two discs... That would 

also get rid of the clear pitch determined by the grainsize...

And if you're insane, you could adjust the grainsize to subharmonics of 

mic wrote:
> problems: -it seems to me that grains sometimes do not keep the right
> phase distance so i get that undesired chorus, phaser effect -the
> first grain/slice of the loop is always cancelled because the play
> position it's locked with sah 0. to the windowing phasor with 0.5
> phase offset..

You could try to differ the length and starting point of the grains by 
analysing zero crossings and then syncronize the next grain to the old 
one, a bit like a dj is syncing the beats of two discs... That would 
also get rid of the clear pitch determined by the grainsize...
And if you're insane, you could adjust the grainsize to subharmonics of 
a detected pitch of your signal...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


well i know very well the patch you posted but as i said i don't like the artifact it produces (a sort of phase-comb effetc) when the pitch is changed, i mean sakonda patch is great but does not suit my aesthetic needs here..i prefer using less grains for example two..what i want now is a loop player that implements some granular technique for time stretching without affecting pitch and change pitch without changing tempo..

reaktor has an excellent one (it's an object that does it, how they call it a macro?..)

it would be great if msp had a groove~ like object that implement it internally..i know, the granular toolkit has grain.groove but it's too heavy on cpu..

i think radial granular-engine does it well..

Hi, thanks for the answer
well i know very well the patch you posted but as i said i don't like the artifact it produces (a sort of phase-comb effetc) when the pitch is changed, i mean sakonda patch is great but does not suit my aesthetic needs here..i prefer using less grains for example two..what i want now is a loop player that implements some granular technique for time stretching without affecting pitch and change pitch without changing tempo..

i think radial granular-engine does it well..
is it entirely max/msp written rigth?

> You could try to differ the length and starting point of the grains by 

> analysing zero crossings and then syncronize the next grain to the old 

> And if you're insane, you could adjust the grainsize to subharmonics of 

i hope the gurus out there could help us..

> You could try to differ the length and starting point of the grains by 
> analysing zero crossings and then syncronize the next grain to the old 
> one, 

> And if you're insane, you could adjust the grainsize to subharmonics of 
> a detected pitch of your signal...

i hope the gurus out there could help us..
;)


and here is a super simple but effective example patch using a single grain..or windowed chops as you like ;)

> and here is a super simple but effective example patch using a single

> grain..or windowed chops as you like ;)

> and here is a super simple but effective example patch using a single
> grain..or windowed chops as you like ;)
>

Cheers
Gary Lee Nelson
Oberlin College
www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson

Quote: Gary Lee Nelson wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 21:41

----------------------------------------------------

oh..here it is, when pasting it you have to inizialize loadbang inside windowfade patcher

Quote: Gary Lee Nelson wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 21:41
----------------------------------------------------
> Max won't open it.
>

> -a sequence re-order featute (i.e like in modsquad) and loop 

> section selection since it's difficult to keep in sync the slices 

Based on the patch you attached, it looks like you just need to 

restructure that [PosCalc] subpatch. The speed parameter is driving 

that [phasor~] inside, which will always produce a linear run through 

the sound. I would suggest creating a [buffer~] that contains the 

pattern that you would like to implement for resuffling. Then use 

the [phasor~] to drive a [cycle~] that is reading that buffer. I 

As far as [grain.phase~] goes, you don't have to worry about skips. 

The external will always finish a grain before it starts using new 

input variables. The only time this gets troublesome is when you 

have rather long grains. But then that isn't granular processing, is 

On Feb 8, 2007, at 3:55 PM, mic wrote:
> -a sequence re-order featute (i.e like in modsquad) and loop  
> section selection since it's difficult to keep in sync the slices  
> sequencer with the windowing pahsor

Based on the patch you attached, it looks like you just need to  
restructure that [PosCalc] subpatch.  The speed parameter is driving  
that [phasor~] inside, which will always produce a linear run through  
the sound.  I would suggest creating a [buffer~] that contains the  
pattern that you would like to implement for resuffling.  Then use  
the [phasor~] to drive a [cycle~] that is reading that buffer.  I  
believe that is how modsquad does it.

As far as [grain.phase~] goes, you don't have to worry about skips.   
The external will always finish a grain before it starts using new  
input variables.  The only time this gets troublesome is when you  
have rather long grains.  But then that isn't granular processing, is  
it?

------
Nathan Wolek, PhD
nathan@lowkeydigitalstudio.com
http://www.lowkeydigitalstudio.com

On 9 Feb 2007, at 17:03, Mattijs Kneppers wrote:

http://www.zplane.de/showPage.php?SPRACHE=UK&PAGE=products11

Interesting - I didn't realise they'd outsourced it, but it makes sense.

> Ableton Live uses this:
> http://www.zplane.de/showPage.php?SPRACHE=UK&PAGE=products11

here we are, here is a simple transposition patch inspired by the transposer abstraction, i like how it sounds.. 

-looped once the first slice is cancelled, i can understand why but i cannot see a solution..outside it's sunny maybe i need a walk! :)

here we are, here is a simple transposition patch inspired by the transposer abstraction, i like how it sounds.. 
problem: 
-looped once the first slice is cancelled, i can understand why but i cannot see a solution..outside it's  sunny  maybe i need a walk! :)
thanks to everyone for the patience

On Feb 10, 2007, at 12:17 PM, Mattijs Kneppers wrote:

> Nonetheless the zplane stuff is realtime. Hmm.. where did I put my 

For info on pitch synchronous granular synthesis, I would recommend 

DePoli, G. & Piccialli, A. (1991). Pitch-synchronous granular 

DePoli, A. Piccialli, & C. Roads (Eds.), Representations of musical 

On Feb 10, 2007, at 12:17 PM, Mattijs Kneppers wrote:
> Nonetheless the zplane stuff is realtime. Hmm.. where did I put my  
> Curtis Roads - Microsound?

For info on pitch synchronous granular synthesis, I would recommend  
this source:

DePoli, G. & Piccialli, A.  (1991).  Pitch-synchronous granular  
synthesis. In G.
DePoli, A. Piccialli, & C. Roads (Eds.),  Representations of musical  
signals
(pp. 187-219).  Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.

-------------------
Nathan Wolek, PhD --- nwolek@stetson.edu
Assistant Professor of Music Technology
Stetson University - DeLand, FL
http://www.nathanwolek.com

Quote: nathan wolek wrote on Mon, 12 February 2007 02:57

> On Feb 10, 2007, at 12:17 PM, Mattijs Kneppers wrote:

> > Nonetheless the zplane stuff is realtime. Hmm.. where did I put my 

> For info on pitch synchronous granular synthesis, I would recommend 

> DePoli, G. & Piccialli, A. (1991). Pitch-synchronous granular 

> DePoli, A. Piccialli, & C. Roads (Eds.), Representations of musical 

> (pp. 187-219). Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.

> Nathan Wolek, PhD --- nwolek@stetson.edu

> Assistant Professor of Music Technology

Quote: nathan wolek wrote on Mon, 12 February 2007 02:57
----------------------------------------------------
> On Feb 10, 2007, at 12:17 PM, Mattijs Kneppers wrote:
> > Nonetheless the zplane stuff is realtime. Hmm.. where did I put my  
> > Curtis Roads - Microsound?
>
> For info on pitch synchronous granular synthesis, I would recommend  
> this source:
>
> DePoli, G. & Piccialli, A.  (1991).  Pitch-synchronous granular  
> synthesis. In G.
> DePoli, A. Piccialli, & C. Roads (Eds.),  Representations of musical  
> signals
> (pp. 187-219).  Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.
>
> -------------------
> Nathan Wolek, PhD --- nwolek@stetson.edu
> Assistant Professor of Music Technology
> Stetson University - DeLand, FL
> http://www.nathanwolek.com
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------


On Feb 10, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Paul Hertz wrote:

> Six of one versus half a dozen of the other, or is one solution

Hello, Paul! Part of the reason for the different externals is so 

that the user can choose based on the application. It really depends 

On Feb 10, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Paul Hertz wrote:
> Six of one versus half a dozen of the other, or is one solution
> possibly more versatile than another?

Hello, Paul!  Part of the reason for the different externals is so  
that the user can choose based on the application.  It really depends  
on the situation.

granular time-stretch pitch-shift