Dili

I want to use max/msp to process my guitar in live performances. but I have a few questions:

guitar - pedal1 (HK tube factor) - pedal2 (Marshall shredmaster) - pedal3 (Big Muff) - max/msp - pedal4 (moogerfooger ring mod) - pedal5 (EHX memory man) - fender twin reverb.

note: some parameter of max/msp are controled via midi buttons and an expression pedal.

1. Can I use max between these pedals without having latency problems?

2. Is the guitar amplifier an advised output for the max/msp processing or is better to split the signal with an AB box and send it to the PA?

3. does the max/msp processing will ruin the tone of the guitar set (coloring the sound in a bad way)?

guitar-thru-maxmsp-latency-and-output

> 2. Is the guitar amplifier an advised output for the max/msp processing or is

> better to split the signal with an AB box and send it to the PA?

Depends on your amp, of course. A guitar amp is surely built to sound "good"

with certain guitar sounds, more than to have a flat response curve. PA will

generally give a more accurate sound. You could also try different keyboard

> 3. does the max/msp processing will ruin the tone of the guitar set (coloring

If you don't do anything with Max, it won't ruin your tone. As soon as you

use it, there is a risk, depending on how ruining your sound treatment will

> 2. Is the guitar amplifier an advised output for the max/msp processing or is
> better to split the signal with an AB box and send it to the PA?
Depends on your amp, of course. A guitar amp is surely built to sound "good"
with certain guitar sounds, more than to have a flat response curve. PA will
generally give a more accurate sound. You could also try different keyboard
amps if you want to perform without PA.
>
> 3. does the max/msp processing will ruin the tone of the guitar set (coloring
> the sound in a bad way)?
>
If you don't do anything with Max, it won't ruin your tone. As soon as you
use it, there is a risk, depending on how ruining your sound treatment will
be. But the tool won't ruin anything.

The latency depends mostly on the drivers of your audiodevice. So 10ms is possible. But that won't be a problem.

If you split the sound, and use both PA and a guitar amp, you will hear the difference between the direct signal and the signal from Max. So it is recommanded to use only one chain.

The latency depends mostly on the drivers of your audiodevice. So 10ms is possible. But that won't be a problem.
If you split the sound, and use both PA and a guitar amp, you will hear the difference between the direct signal and the signal from Max. So it is recommanded to use only one chain.


>> 3. does the max/msp processing will ruin the tone of the guitar 

> If you don't do anything with Max, it won't ruin your tone. As soon 

> use it, there is a risk, depending on how ruining your sound 

I am a big fan of true bypass, because going into something and going 

out (especially buffered pedals or AD/DA chain) will affect radically 

the quality of your transient. A good guitar straight in your good 

amp sounds like nothing else. There is a lot said on the subject on 

the web, just google 'why use true bypass'

There is a lot of options for your setup, like using a true bypass 

passive fx loop pedal that has a return volume knob. I've design one 

do go to my mooger fooger because it uses a preamp to crank the level 

to make the envelop follower works, but the through gain was 

therefore very much louder. You could do the same with your sound 

card, making an fx loop with it, cranking its preamp to maximise the 

processing in Max, then lowering the output after the DA with a 

I can post the plan of the pedal if you want

ps That might sound overkill, and sometimes it is, but if you are 

used to play your electric instrument straight in the amp, your will 

soon have sound quality issues with your pedal chain...

>> 3. does the max/msp processing will ruin the tone of the guitar  
>> set (coloring
>> the sound in a bad way)?
> If you don't do anything with Max, it won't ruin your tone. As soon  
> as you
> use it, there is a risk, depending on how ruining your sound  
> treatment will
> be. But the tool won't ruin anything.

I am a big fan of true bypass, because going into something and going  
out (especially buffered pedals or AD/DA chain) will affect radically  
the quality of your transient.  A good guitar straight in your good  
amp sounds like nothing else. There is a lot said on the subject on  
the web, just google 'why use true bypass'

There is a lot of options for your setup, like using a true bypass  
passive fx loop pedal that has a return volume knob.  I've design one  
do go to my mooger fooger because it uses a preamp to crank the level  
to make the envelop follower works, but the through gain was  
therefore very much louder.  You could do the same with your sound  
card, making an fx loop with it, cranking its preamp to maximise the  
processing in Max, then lowering the output after the DA with a  
simple passive fader.

ps That might sound overkill, and sometimes it is, but if you are  
used to play your electric instrument straight in the amp, your will  
soon have sound quality issues with your pedal chain...


Quote: tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Wed, 16 May 2007 09:44

----------------------------------------------------

> There is a lot of options for your setup, like using a true bypass 

> passive fx loop pedal that has a return volume knob. I've design one 

> do go to my mooger fooger because it uses a preamp to crank the level 

> to make the envelop follower works, but the through gain was 

> therefore very much louder. You could do the same with your sound 

> card, making an fx loop with it, cranking its preamp to maximise the 

> processing in Max, then lowering the output after the DA with a 

> I can post the plan of the pedal if you want

are you talking about doing it in max/msp or with physical components?

I would appreciate if you post it! I have to refer that in the max/msp patch i designed a dry/wet fader... does it function like a true bypass?

> ps That might sound overkill, and sometimes it is, but if you are 

> used to play your electric instrument straight in the amp, your will 

> soon have sound quality issues with your pedal chain...

Quote: tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Wed, 16 May 2007 09:44
----------------------------------------------------

> There is a lot of options for your setup, like using a true bypass  
> passive fx loop pedal that has a return volume knob.  I've design one  
> do go to my mooger fooger because it uses a preamp to crank the level  
> to make the envelop follower works, but the through gain was  
> therefore very much louder.  You could do the same with your sound  
> card, making an fx loop with it, cranking its preamp to maximise the  
> processing in Max, then lowering the output after the DA with a  
> simple passive fader.
>
> I can post the plan of the pedal if you want

are you talking about doing it in max/msp or with physical components?
I would appreciate if you post it! I have to refer that in the max/msp patch i designed a dry/wet fader... does it function like a true bypass?

> ps That might sound overkill, and sometimes it is, but if you are  
> used to play your electric instrument straight in the amp, your will  
> soon have sound quality issues with your pedal chain...
>

Yeah, Iam aware of that, thats why i asked.. :)


Quote: Berend wrote on Wed, 16 May 2007 08:50

> The latency depends mostly on the drivers of your audiodevice. So 10ms is possible. But that won't be a problem.

> If you split the sound, and use both PA and a guitar amp, you will hear the difference between the direct signal and the signal from Max. So it is recommanded to use only one chain.

My soundcard is a MOTU Traveller and the computer is a apple powerbook 12" 1.0 with 1.25 gb RAM... I don

Quote: Berend wrote on Wed, 16 May 2007 08:50
----------------------------------------------------
> The latency depends mostly on the drivers of your audiodevice. So 10ms is possible. But that won't be a problem.
> If you split the sound, and use both PA and a guitar amp, you will hear the difference between the direct signal and the signal from Max. So it is recommanded to use only one chain.
----------------------------------------------------

My soundcard is a MOTU Traveller and the computer is a apple powerbook 12" 1.0 with 1.25 gb RAM... I don


> are you talking about doing it in max/msp or with physical components?

> I would appreciate if you post it! I have to refer that in the max/ 

> msp patch i designed a dry/wet fader... does it function like a 

no, a true bypass is a true physical bypass, just a little longer 

>> ps That might sound overkill, and sometimes it is, but if you are

>> used to play your electric instrument straight in the amp, your will

>> soon have sound quality issues with your pedal chain...

It took me years to figure that out... as my knowledge increased, my 

empirical conclusions were confirmed. Now I find ways of bypassing 

everything when in critical situation (recording studio)

For live setup, I fin the simplest way from A to B ;-)

> I would appreciate if you post it! I have to refer that in the max/ 
> msp patch i designed a dry/wet fader... does it function like a  
> true bypass?

no, a true bypass is a true physical bypass, just a little longer  
cable. It is a passive device.

>> ps That might sound overkill, and sometimes it is, but if you are
>> used to play your electric instrument straight in the amp, your will
>> soon have sound quality issues with your pedal chain...
>
> Yeah, Iam aware of that, thats why i asked.. :)

It took me years to figure that out... as my knowledge increased, my  
empirical conclusions were confirmed.  Now I find ways of bypassing  
everything when in critical situation (recording studio)

when i agree with P-A (:-)) it's also not a "rule" - just do what 

sounds good to you - true bypass? sure. But what about Link Wray who 

used to make holes in his amp speakers?? guitar amps having a 

limited range?? yeah, that's what made the fame of sans amp boxes - 

to give that limited range to voice, drums etc etc

latency? there is always one. But the worst i ever had was whan 

I like amps - have this old Hiwatt/ampeg combination at home. But did 

not plug into anything else than maxMsp since at least 5 years....

I bet segovia would say than plugging into a moogerfooger destroys its tone!!!

>>>ps That might sound overkill, and sometimes it is, but if you are

>>>used to play your electric instrument straight in the amp, your will

>>>soon have sound quality issues with your pedal chain...

>It took me years to figure that out... as my knowledge increased, my 

>empirical conclusions were confirmed. Now I find ways of bypassing 

>everything when in critical situation (recording studio)

>For live setup, I fin the simplest way from A to B ;-)

when i agree with P-A (:-)) it's also not a "rule" - just do what 
sounds good to you - true bypass? sure. But what about Link Wray who 
used to make holes in his amp speakers??  guitar amps having a 
limited range?? yeah, that's what made the fame of sans amp boxes - 
to give that limited range to voice, drums etc etc
latency? there is always one. But the worst i ever had was whan 
playing with a HF (into an amp)

I like amps - have this old Hiwatt/ampeg combination at home. But did 
not plug into anything else than maxMsp since at least 5 years....

>
>>>ps That might sound overkill, and sometimes it is, but if you are
>>>used to play your electric instrument straight in the amp, your will
>>>soon have sound quality issues with your pedal chain...
>>
>>Yeah, Iam aware of that, thats why i asked.. :)
>
>It took me years to figure that out... as my knowledge increased, my 
>empirical conclusions were confirmed.  Now I find ways of bypassing 
>everything when in critical situation (recording studio)
>
>For live setup, I fin the simplest way from A to B ;-)


> when i agree with P-A (:-)) it's also not a "rule"

My set-up changes every time I play, but if I had to have one fixed, 

I would be careful with true-bypass now, for transparency concerns. 

I just reacted when someone said it should not change anything to go 

through AD/DA: it does indeed change the sound, and tuning your ear 

to these subtlety cannot harm... except your wallet!

My set-up changes every time I play, but if I had to have one fixed,  
I would be careful with true-bypass now, for transparency concerns.  
Even my fuzz stompbox has one ;-)

I just reacted when someone said it should not change anything to go  
through AD/DA: it does indeed change the sound, and tuning your ear  
to these subtlety cannot harm... except your wallet!

>I just reacted when someone said it should not change anything to go 

>through AD/DA: it does indeed change the sound, and tuning your ear 

>to these subtlety cannot harm... except your wallet!

at some point I used to use a BOSS' stompbox to bypass other effects 

- and discovered that this "bypass" box did actually change the sound 

of my bass... the (all-passive) Ernie Ball volume pedal also does 

now i go straight to maxmsp and not much does change the sound of my 

>
>I just reacted when someone said it should not change anything to go 
>through AD/DA: it does indeed change the sound, and tuning your ear 
>to these subtlety cannot harm... except your wallet!
>

at some point I used to use a BOSS' stompbox to bypass other effects 
- and discovered that this "bypass" box did actually change the sound 
of my bass... the (all-passive) Ernie Ball volume pedal also does 
change the clean sound........!!!

now i go straight to maxmsp and not much does change the sound of my 
munger~-ized bass!!

kasper
-- 
  Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer
http://www.sleazeArt.com

but latency come from your devices (computer, sound card, etc...)

> I always thought that one of the advantages of max/msp was the 

> I always thought that one of the advantages of max/msp was the 
> real-time signal processing

Guitar thru max/msp - latency and output