Eddy

I'm currently working with the demo version of Max but will be purchasing a licence at the end of the month without doubt. I've been using Max to build a couple of OSC applications which interface with an external piece of hardware that talks, well, OSC!

One thing that has struck me immediately is how amazing Max is. That said, there seem to be some basic usability things that are either missing from Max, or which I've not yet found.

Max patches get pretty cluttered pretty quickly. I was looking for some way to assign various parts of a patch to a different view layer that could be turned on and off but searching the docs the only mention of layers appears to be 'background' and 'foreground'. Is this the case? I realise I can use subpatches and hide patch cables individually but it would be great if there was some feature in here whereby I could assign objects to layers and enable/disable display of them at will.

Secondly, I can't find a way to route patch cables unless I click on them individually and use the keyboard shortcut or invoke the 'Arrange -> Route patchcords' option. Is there any way to select multiple patch cables and have them all routed for me in one operation, or do I have to suck it up and keep clicking on them one at a time? An option to have all new patch cables routed automatically as they are created would be awesome too!

Finally (and really, I don't want to appear negative, these are just my current wish-items which may be possible once I'm familiar with the envoronment!) is there any way to 'trace a cable'. With many patch cables combined into 'busses' effectively, it would be fantastic to right-click on an object and have a menu item that said 'Highlight connections' or similar which then displayed in a different colour the patch cables leading to and from it all the way to their point of origin/destinations.

Anyway, no gripes, just some initial thoughts and I can see that the forum is gonna be a very useful resource for me.

  I'm currently working with the demo version of Max but will be purchasing a licence at the end of the month without doubt. I've been using Max to build a couple of OSC applications which interface with an external piece of hardware that talks, well, OSC!

  One thing that has struck me immediately is how amazing Max is. That said, there seem to be some basic usability things that are either missing from Max, or which I've not yet found.

  Max patches get pretty cluttered pretty quickly. I was looking for some way to assign various parts of a patch to a different view layer that could be turned on and off but searching the docs the only mention of layers appears to be 'background' and 'foreground'. Is this the case? I realise I can use subpatches and hide patch cables individually but it would be great if there was some feature in here whereby I could assign objects to layers and enable/disable display of them at will.

  Secondly, I can't find a way to route patch cables unless I click on them individually and use the keyboard shortcut or invoke the 'Arrange -> Route patchcords' option. Is there any way to select multiple patch cables and have them all routed for me in one operation, or do I have to suck it up and keep clicking on them one at a time? An option to have all new patch cables routed automatically as they are created would be awesome too!

  Finally (and really, I don't want to appear negative, these are just my current wish-items which may be possible once I'm familiar with the envoronment!) is there any way to 'trace a cable'. With many patch cables combined into 'busses' effectively, it would be fantastic to right-click on an object and have a menu item that said 'Highlight connections' or similar which then displayed in a different colour the patch cables leading to and from it all the way to their point of origin/destinations.

  Anyway, no gripes, just some initial thoughts and I can see that the forum is gonna be a very useful resource for me.

hello-and-some-initial-thoughts

A quick way to deal with patch cords is to use alt/option, which lets you highlight them as well as objects, or just them by themselves. You can also Hide Foreground, then Select All (which is just patch cords) and hide them all at once. Don't choose Route Patch Cords when you have a ton of them selected... it can take a very very long time.

The multiple layers and being able to hide/show would be nice, but there's just Foreground and Background. However, putting some objects in the Background and then choosing View-->Lock Background makes getting around much easier, especially if you use panels under collections of controls, which helps keep things together visually. Without locking the background, you're always selecting the panel as you work.

I also like the "trace cable" idea. It would be helpful to see where it goes on its potentially very long journey, and maybe print out all the objects it goes through in the Max window. But one workaround for now is to choose a different color for certain cords or groups of them. It's easy to colorize all the cords coming out of (say) a preset by using alt/option, plus you can change the alpha, brilliant!

While we're on a wish list thread, something I'd like to see would be thispatcher and javascript "narrators" which would print out the appropriate thispatcher/javascript commands for everything (or most everything) that you do while patching: create, move, and resize objects; connect and disconnect; set values or attributes; etc. Though I imagine it would have to be inactive when lots of things are going on, or else it would be printing a ton of stuff. Maybe an option to show the commands for the last thing you did, if you want to get the syntax right. Or maybe I should just learn them the old-fashioned way... but hey, this is the 21st century!

Hey, there are some really cool pointers for the new guy in there. Thank you

As a Max/MSP absolute beginner I should point that I miss the following patch cords/objects editing functionality:

Select all Patch Cords of a currently selected object(s)

Option like this can help to re-route of several patch cords at once. In addition the same option can help us to find and select a specific patch cord when they are combined into 'busses' and overlap each other (finding and selecting a specific patch cord when they are overlapping is a real pain currently).

Shift a selected object vertically/horizontally

Automatically shift newly created objects vertically/horizontally

' if they are created using keyboard shortcuts (t, n, m, i etc). 

When you creating new objects by left mouse button double clicking or using the Object Palette they are placed at the mouse pointer which is moved accordingly. But when you are creating several objects using keyboard shortcuts (say: toggle, metro, button, random, message and integer - without touching the mouse) the mouse pointer stays at the same place and all of the new objects are created overlapping each other, and you are forced to rearrange them right after creation just to see them all.

1. I miss something like an option to 'Select all Patch Cords of a currently selected object(s)'. 
Option like this can help to re-route of several patch cords at once. In addition the same option can help us to find and select a specific patch cord when they are combined into 'busses' and overlap each other (finding and selecting a specific patch cord when they are overlapping is a real pain currently).

2. I miss a single letter keyboard shortcut to 'Shift a selected object vertically/horizontally'. Or maybe an option to 'Automatically shift newly created objects vertically/horizontally' if they are created using keyboard shortcuts (t, n, m, i etc). 
When you creating new objects by left mouse button double clicking or using the Object Palette they are placed at the mouse pointer which is moved accordingly. But when you are creating several objects using keyboard shortcuts (say: toggle, metro, button, random, message and integer - without touching the mouse) the mouse pointer stays at the same place and all of the new objects are created overlapping each other, and you are forced to rearrange them right after creation just to see them all.


I'd like the "select all cords attached to this object" too, but you can also use alt-drag around the object to do this pretty easily. Just isolate the object first to get only its patch cords.

For the object creation: use duplicate. Highlight an object you want duplicated, then control-D, then move the new one in line and spaced the way you want. Further duplications will preserve the layout. If you use alt-drag to duplicate, as I usually do, you can hold Shift once you're moving to keep the new ones aligned with the original.

There are hundreds of other time-saving tricks too, read and re-read the relevant docs about getting around. Also get the Max Toolbox which makes certain things a LOT easier to manage.

Yes, thank you for your tips. My suggestions are just matter of usability: to save some time and typing.

BTW: there _is_ a keyboard shortcut to shift an object vertically (

), but as it is not a single-key shortcut it is not as useful...

Just to give an additional idea: all (g)Vim users know 4 easy keys to move left-down-up-right. Here they are: 

. Maybe it is a good idea to have smth like this in Max? (Unfortunately, the keys j and l are taken already!..)

BTW: there _is_ a keyboard shortcut to shift an object vertically (Shift-ArrowUp/ArrowDown) or horizontally (Shift-ArrowLeft/ArrowRight), but as it is not a single-key shortcut it is not as useful...

Just to give an additional idea: all (g)Vim users know 4 easy keys to move left-down-up-right. Here they are: h-j-k-l. Maybe it is a good idea to have smth like this in Max? (Unfortunately, the keys j and l are taken already!..)


Valery_Kondakoff wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 22:27

2. I miss a single letter keyboard shortcut to 'Shift a selected object vertically/horizontally'. BTW: there _is_ a keyboard shortcut to shift an object vertically (

Hmm... After some time to think I'd like to re-phrase my initial feature request.

There is no need to implement another one object-shifting keyboard shortcut (especially when there is one existing). What we need - is a way to move object insertion point (or just a mouse cursor) with a single keyboard shortcut. That's it!

Valery_Kondakoff wrote on Tue, 17 November 2009 22:27
2. I miss a single letter keyboard shortcut to 'Shift a selected object vertically/horizontally'. BTW: there _is_ a keyboard shortcut to shift an object vertically (Shift-ArrowUp/ArrowDown) or horizontally (Shift-ArrowLeft/ArrowRight), but as it is not a single-key shortcut it is not as useful...

There is no need to implement another one object-shifting keyboard shortcut (especially when there is one existing). What we need - is a way to move object insertion point (or just a mouse cursor) with a single keyboard shortcut. That's it!


There are a few things which make my patching easier, you may or may not agree.

1) Don't align any patch cords until you are sure that the section of the patch works correctly and you understand fully how it works. Also, don't encapsulate a process until you fully understand how it works, it can get really confusing otherwise.

2) When you do align patch cords, don't align all at once, it will immediately get confusing. Just do bits at a time.

3) You can change the colors of selected patch cords from the Object/Colors menu

4) Don't use a white patching background, I have mine set to dark grey so that it makes the different colors of patch cords easier to see, it's also just easier on the eyes I think.

5) Try and keep all you patching visually related to the signal/message path. That is, don't connect the output of an object to the input of another object that is above it on the screen unless you have to. Being able to easily see the signal/message path is one of the best things about maxmsp. May as well take full advantage of it.

7) You can use [thispatcher] to create and control as many layers as you want.

Set Snap to Grid and Show Grid as defaults for every new patcher and set the grid size quite small (I use 5. 5.). It makes it even easier to patch neatly. To set it as default, go to the MaxMSP/Preferences menu and check the boxes.

Just my thoughts. Also, if you have Snap to Grid on, you only need to hit an arrow button to move an object around. Shift+arrow buttons then move objects by a pixel(maybe?) at a time.

1) Don't align any patch cords until you are sure that the section of the patch works correctly and you understand fully how it works.  Also, don't encapsulate a process until you fully understand how it works, it can get really confusing otherwise.

2) When you do align patch cords, don't align all at once, it will immediately get confusing.  Just do bits at a time.

5) Try and keep all you patching visually related to the signal/message path.  That is, don't connect the output of an object to the input of another object that is above it on the screen unless you have to.  Being able to easily see the signal/message path is one of the best things about maxmsp.  May as well take full advantage of it.

7)  You can use [thispatcher] to create and control as many layers as you want.  

 Set Snap to Grid and Show Grid as defaults for every new patcher and set the grid size quite small (I use 5. 5.).  It makes it even easier to patch neatly.  To set it as default, go to the MaxMSP/Preferences menu and check the boxes.

Just my thoughts.  Also, if you have Snap to Grid on, you only need to hit an arrow button to move an object around.  Shift+arrow buttons then move objects by a pixel(maybe?) at a time.

timlloyd wrote on Wed, 18 November 2009 04:36

4) Don't use a white patching background, I have mine set to dark grey

And just because you are using the dark patcher background the comment boxes are absolutely invisible on systems which are using the default color settings!

http://www.rugby-forum.ru/temp/patcher.jpg

timlloyd wrote on Wed, 18 November 2009 04:36
4) Don't use a white patching background, I have mine set to dark grey
6) Use comment boxes.

And just because you are using the dark patcher background the comment boxes are absolutely invisible on systems which are using the default color settings! 

Here is a screenshot: http://www.rugby-forum.ru/temp/patcher.jpg


The [bgcolor] object was meant to sort that out. Dunno why not. Try save, close, re-open.

The [bgcolor] object was meant to sort that out.  Dunno why not.  Try save, close, re-open.


Exactly. If I Save-Reopen your patch it is shown with gray background. If I create the patch using File-New From Clipboard menu item it is shown with the default white background.

 No, the point is in locking/unlocking the patch. When patch is unlocked (after creating using File-New From Clipboard menu item) it is shown with the default white background/ If I lock it - the dark background appears.

So: the [bgcolor] object works only on locked patchers?

(I'm using the Max/MSP 5.1.9 beta on Win7)

Two minutes later: No, the point is in locking/unlocking the patch. When patch is unlocked (after creating using File-New From Clipboard menu item) it is shown with the default white background/ If I lock it - the dark background appears.

(I'm using the Max/MSP 5.1.9 beta on Win7)


yes, the bgcolor is a command to change the attribute of a locked patch only. You can set the Unlocked Patcher Background color in the thispatcher inspector (right-click on any empty space), but I don't think you can change it programmatically, though maybe a message to Max can. If you want different colors for the unlocked patching background, use a panel.

I definitely agree with the visual appearance matching (as best as you can) the signal flow. The times when you can't go "down and to the right" can get very confusing. However, sometimes I'll have a group of objects close to the edge of the screen, and once the "stuff in between" (the logic objects) all works, I'll drag them out as a cluster and keep it off-screen. It looks kind of awful but I don't need to touch it by then. And if I just used Presentation Mode more effectively this wouldn't really be an issue.

Encapsulation is fantastic, but I try to limit how many inlets/outlets I use, it can get pretty confusing otherwise. I'd rather have a list in or out and do a route or select afterwards. Along those lines, it might be nice to have the number of the inlet/outlet show up in the popup bubble when you roll over it... I know you can use the Comment attribute for this, but having just the number show up without doing anything extra would be helpful. Or have this as a Preferences option.

Hello, and some initial thoughts