Forums > MaxMSP

help to fatten up my kick drum sound?

July 21, 2008 | 3:35 pm

Hi,

I’m looking to fatten up my kick drum sound a bit, but not knowing exactly how to proceed. I’ve posted my usual way of synthesizing kick drums, which sounds fine on little speakers but on larger speakers sorta lacks that fat oomph that is so essential. What should I do?

Thanks for any suggestions,
Jay

#P button 59 82 15 0;
#P window setfont "Sans Serif" 9.;
#P window linecount 1;
#P newex 90 389 32 9109513 / 127.;
#P user ezdac~ 59 475 103 508 0;
#P newex 59 437 41 9109513 *~;
#P newex 147 123 66 9109513 loadmess 250;
#P comment 255 294 100 9109513 volume envelope;
#P newex 278 310 27 9109513 line~;
#P newex 177 310 27 9109513 line~;
#P newex 59 413 75 9109513 *~;
#P newex 59 389 28 9109513 cos~;
#P newex 59 366 55 9109513 phasor~;
#P newex 59 342 27 9109513 *~;
#P newex 90 145 53 9109513 t i 0. b b;
#P number 147 146 35 9 0 0 0 139 0 0 0 221 221 221 222 222 222 0 0 0;
#P message 147 165 64 9109513 setdomain $1;
#P user function 248 197 348 293 1 1 0 0;
#X frgb 82 82 82;
#X brgb 204 204 204;
#X rgb2 85 85 85;
#X rgb3 255 255 255;
#X rgb4 0 0 0;
#X rgb5 0 0 0;
#X add 0. 0. 0;
#X add 1.25 1. 0;
#X add 36.931816 0.873239 0;
#X add 93.75 0.295775 0;
#X add 164.772751 0.084507 0;
#X add 250. 0. 0;
#X domain 250.;
#X range 0. 1.;
#X done;
#P user function 147 197 247 293 1 1 0 0;
#X frgb 82 82 82;
#X brgb 204 204 204;
#X rgb2 85 85 85;
#X rgb3 255 255 255;
#X rgb4 0 0 0;
#X rgb5 0 0 0;
#X add 0. 1. 0;
#X add 105.11364 0.5 0;
#X domain 250.;
#X range 0.5 1.;
#X done;
#P window linecount 2;
#P newex 59 109 41 9109513 unpack 46 127;
#P window linecount 1;
#P newex 59 145 28 9109513 mtof;
#P comment 159 294 100 9109513 pitch envelope;
#P comment 76 82 66 9109513 bang for kick;
#P connect 17 0 18 0;
#P connect 17 0 18 1;
#P connect 20 0 3 0;
#P connect 3 0 2 0;
#P connect 3 1 8 0;
#P connect 6 0 4 0;
#P connect 6 0 5 0;
#P connect 16 0 7 0;
#P fasten 13 0 9 1 182 334 81 334;
#P connect 9 0 10 0;
#P connect 2 0 9 0;
#P connect 19 0 17 1;
#P connect 8 0 19 0;
#P connect 12 0 17 0;
#P fasten 8 2 4 0 123 192 152 192;
#P fasten 8 3 5 0 137 187 253 187;
#P connect 8 1 10 1;
#P connect 5 1 14 0;
#P connect 4 1 13 0;
#P connect 10 0 11 0;
#P connect 11 0 12 0;
#P fasten 14 0 12 1 283 341 129 341;
#P connect 7 0 6 0;
#P window clipboard copycount 21;


July 21, 2008 | 3:46 pm

Cant seem to open your patch,

Generally I find eq’ing so it peaks between 100 and 140 comes through on bigger speakers. And use a limiter maybe, think there’s a limiter/compressor patch in the max documentation that might help.


July 21, 2008 | 4:52 pm

Jay Bodley skrev:
> Hi,
>
> I’m looking to fatten up my kick drum sound a bit, but not knowing exactly how to proceed. I’ve posted my usual way of synthesizing kick drums, which sounds fine on little speakers but on larger speakers sorta lacks that fat oomph that is so essential. What should I do?
Jay,
There’s plenty of low end in the kick you posted – try lowering to midi
note 40, or working more on the pitch envelope.

But first of all I’d like to know what you mean by "fat oomph"? A lot of
times what people hear as "phatness" is the noise and higher
frequencies", not the other way around. Have you tried layering with a
crackly old vinyl breakbeat sample?

Andreas.


July 21, 2008 | 4:58 pm

I’m basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~…).


July 22, 2008 | 9:30 am

i find a bit of saturation / distortion (overdrive~) acts as a sorta limiter, and gives the kick more punch. i would also second the EQ

j


July 22, 2008 | 1:05 pm

Are there any Max patches or externals out there that do
saturation/distortion/compression?


July 22, 2008 | 1:13 pm

Quote: Karaokaze wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:58
—————————————————-
> I’m basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~…).
—————————————————-

Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects page just sends me to cycling74 and when i run a search all i get is forum posts that mention omx.


July 22, 2008 | 1:14 pm

Quote: Karaokaze wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:58
—————————————————-
> I’m basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~…).
—————————————————-

Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects site just sends me to cycling74 and when I run a search all i get is forum posts mentioning omx.


July 22, 2008 | 1:23 pm

Hi,

they are included with Max/Msp.

All the best


Alessandro Fogar

http://www.fogar.it

2008/7/22 Jay Bodley :
>
> Quote: Karaokaze wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:58
> —————————————————-
>> I’m basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~…).
> —————————————————-
>
> Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects page just sends me to cycling74 and when i run a search all i get is forum posts that mention omx.
>


July 22, 2008 | 1:24 pm

On 22 juil. 08, at 15:14, Jay Bodley wrote:

> Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects site just sends me to
> cycling74 and when I run a search all i get is forum posts
> mentioning omx.

They’re part of the distribution since Max 4.5. So if you type
omx.peaklim~ for instance, it should appear.

ej



f.e
July 22, 2008 | 1:24 pm


July 22, 2008 | 1:25 pm

Quote: sfogar wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 07:23
—————————————————-
> Hi,
>
> they are included with Max/Msp.
>
> All the best
>
> —
> Alessandro Fogar
>
> http://www.fogar.it
>
> 2008/7/22 Jay Bodley :
> >
> > Quote: Karaokaze wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:58
> > —————————————————-
> >> I’m basically saying the same thing as seanzshow. But for quick eq try attaching a filtergraph~ object to a biquad~(like in the filtergraph~ help-file) and use a peak-notch filter setting to sweep a peak anywhere between 20Hz and 200Hz to see what you like. (Lower frequencies really show-up well in subwoofers so you might actually want a couple peaks or a low-shelf). Also, definitely use a limiter after everything or think about using the omx style objects(like omx.4band~/omx.5band~/omx.peaklim~…).
> > —————————————————-
> >
> > Where to find the omx objects? The maxobjects page just sends me to cycling74 and when i run a search all i get is forum posts that mention omx.
> >
>
—————————————————-

Haha, I guess the obvious place is the last one to check sometimes. Thanks.


July 22, 2008 | 3:30 pm

Wow I had no idea the octimax externals were included. Nice!

Lets put together a list of useful externals/abstractions that
one could use to enhance audio signals. So far we have…

eq – biquad~, filtergraph~
compressor – octimax.comp~
distortion – overdrive~
saturation – ?
exciter – ?

Any ideas for saturation and exciter? Are there additional
signal modifiers that should be on this list?


July 22, 2008 | 4:38 pm

Quote: Anthony Palomba wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 09:30
—————————————————-

> saturation – ?
>
> Any ideas for saturation and exciter?
>
—————————————————-

jcom.saturation~ in jamoma is nice!


July 23, 2008 | 2:43 am

just figured I’d add: for EQ there’s also svf~ which is a nice filter for many uses as well(has the added benefit of giving you the use of using different settings in parallel(i.e. lowpass, highpass, bandpass, and notch, can all be used together). I still prefer biquad~ and, on that note, there’s also cascade~ to achieve a series of biquad~s.

I also should’ve noted that omx objects are actually MSP objects. But it was already explained. Maybe, though, I should add, the very powerful omx.4band~ and omx.5band~ are great to achieve compression and EQing at the same time(you’d still want to eq before them but they can help fatten up the sound in different frequency ranges).

For saturation and exciter, you might need to create this on your own or use the 4band/5band omx objects to estimate these effects(i.e. push them hard in a certain range). To create your own, either by FFT or otherwise, you would need to single out certain frequency bands, somehow add harmonic distortion to them, perhaps even phase-reverse this distortion to null the distortion’s effect on the human-ear(so the sound is clearer)… actually, I’ll just cease my amateur speculation and simply point you to this old Mailing-List archive:

http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=52866&rid=0&srch=enhancer+%2F+exciter%3F#msg_52866


July 23, 2008 | 7:41 am

Quote: Anthony Palomba wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 14:05
—————————————————-
> Are there any Max patches or externals out there that do
> saturation/distortion/compression?
—————————————————-

there’s an old thread where i was trying to make a soft clip distortion: http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=76482&rid=789&S=a28de8872a9a4f921fdd21093eb64670#msg_76482

you’ll find a few bits of code and ideas that will come in handy…

j


July 23, 2008 | 8:28 am

little bit of FM ;)


July 23, 2008 | 11:48 am

tanh~ is pretty cool for clipping/distortion
You could try to use non linear envelope too.
The quartic envelope usually sound great. It’s smoother.

Linear f(x) = x
Quartic f(x) = x * x * x * x

– Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. –

July 23, 2008 | 5:24 pm

Quote: Bertrand Fraysse wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 05:48
—————————————————-
> tanh~ is pretty cool for clipping/distortion
> You could try to use non linear envelope too.
> The quartic envelope usually sound great. It’s smoother.
>
> Linear f(x) = x
> Quartic f(x) = x * x * x * x
>
—————————————————-

Sounds nice! Thanks.


July 23, 2008 | 11:41 pm

your patch doesn’t go low enough. and then distort it a bit. the click at the beginning is pretty important too. you might have do everything with signals to control the click sound properly.


July 23, 2008 | 11:43 pm

and the envelopes are too short


July 24, 2008 | 1:33 am

The click at the beginning of the kick is a matter of taste.
To remove the click you can make a 10 millisecond envelope.
In the patch, I use just a 1 millisecond envelope to remove the big click.
I you want to remove the click completely, you can use a 10 milliseconds envelope, but I think it removes some punch.


July 25, 2008 | 9:58 am

See the end posts in this topic for syncing help

http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&th=32614&start=0&rid=0&S=ed3b9b22fd2251609aaa757ec2eba627


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