how to get some order in this atonal melody mish mash?

Mar 20, 2006 at 10:36am

how to get some order in this atonal melody mish mash?

hi,

I’m working on some generative stuff and was wondering how people on here get some modal/tonal order (what an ugly word) in their melodies and harmonies.
It’s all to easy programming some 12tone rows, retrograding them etc., but how do *you* get less atonal melodies?

for example, I could force a random stream of chars to be ordened by a complicated system of adding and substraction, but before I start doing stuff like that; I’d like to know some alternatives.

i’ve been having some nice results with Cellular Automata generated melodies, which is pretty cool…

Perhaps a probabolistic table with desired notes, but how do you access them not purely at random, maybe some fancy algorithm, attractor style?

another thing is how to get some nice velocity templates into them, I’m sick of 127 and even sicker of random…

and Peter, if you’re going to offer me Litter Power, you better get some examples at hand ; )

thanks,

junior _ isjtar

#24978
Mar 20, 2006 at 11:30am

Probably a pretty redundant reply, but just in case
you’ve missed the Pierian Spring that is Karlheinz
Essl’s RTC Lib:
http://www.essl.at/works/rtc.html
cheers
Roger

#72911
Mar 20, 2006 at 11:44am

yes, a bit redundant ; )
no, seriously, some nice stuff in there, I especially like the sneak rythm, but I was hoping for something different…

cheers

#72912
Mar 20, 2006 at 12:09pm

#72913
Mar 20, 2006 at 12:23pm

I do a lot of this sorting of thing. Lately I have been using various
iterative function (chaos, Barry Martin, Cliff Pickover, etc.) to generate
what I call “structure” – musically speaking this contains rhythms and
register. Then I apply “surface” which is exact pitches and orchestration.
You may be familiar with Webern’s “klangfarben” treatment of a Bach
Ricecare.

One of the most useful methods for applying order to “atonal” structure is
the sieve. I made an abstraction called NewSieve (I had several older
ones). The left inlet takes any MIDI notes you please. The right inlet
takes a list of pitch classes say 0 2 4 5 7 9 11 if you want the output to
coerced into the notes of a C major scale. The right inlet can be varied in
realtime to create harmonic progressions.

One very cool technique is one I call “cross composition” where the right
inlet receives the notes from a midi file collected with bag. You can hear
this in action in the soundtrack for for my film “Death and
Transfiguration.” The structure is a 2D fractal based on Barry Martin. The
surface is a midi file playing Strauss’ tone poem of the same name. You can
view the film on my website shown in my signature.

Here are the patches. Note that I use Peter Elsea’s Lobjects so you’ll need
to get those from maxobjects.com.

NewSieve

#P window setfont “Sans Serif” 9.;
#P window linecount 1;
#P newex 69 120 27 196617 – 1;
#P newex 132 98 42 196617 Lunique;
#P newex 183 25 45 196617 loadbang;
#P newex 39 240 70 196617 thresh 0.5;
#P newex 39 219 56 196617 iter 0.5;
#P newex 39 199 29 196617 Ladd;
#P button 39 77 15 0;
#P message 183 55 125 196617 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11;
#P newex 39 151 34 196617 * 12.;
#P newex 39 99 40 196617 Uzi 11;
#N comlet pitch to be sieved;
#P inlet 14 22 15 0;
#N comlet list of pitches for sieve;
#P inlet 132 25 15 0;
#P newex 14 264 35 196617 Lclose;
#P outlet 39 286 15 0;
#P window setfont “Sans Serif” 18.;
#P comment 197 80 95 196626 NewSieve;
#P window setfont “Sans Serif” 9.;
#P window linecount 8;
#P comment 198 112 100 196617 New version using Lobjects. Sieves to the
nearest pitch over the full range of midi key numbers including fractions
for alternate tunings.;
#P connect 13 0 8 0;
#P fasten 4 0 9 0 137 50 44 50;
#P connect 4 0 14 0;
#P connect 6 2 15 0;
#P fasten 14 0 10 1 137 175 63 175;
#P fasten 8 0 9 0 188 74 44 74;
#P fasten 8 0 10 1 188 187 63 187;
#P connect 3 1 2 0;
#P connect 12 0 3 1;
#P connect 11 0 12 0;
#P connect 10 0 11 0;
#P connect 7 0 10 0;
#P fasten 15 0 7 0 74 144 44 144;
#P connect 9 0 6 0;
#P connect 5 0 3 0;
#P window clipboard copycount 16;

And NewSieve.help

#P window setfont “Sans Serif” 9.;
#P window linecount 1;
#P message 554 115 127 196617 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11;
#P message 503 115 43 196617 0 3 6 9;
#P newex 198 194 40 196617 change;
#P message 458 115 31 196617 5 10;
#P toggle 198 45 15 0;
#P newex 198 68 58 196617 metro 125;
#N counter 36 96;
#X flags 0 0;
#P newobj 198 94 74 196617 counter 36 96;
#P message 363 115 85 196617 0 2 3 5 6 8 9 11;
#P message 277 117 76 196617 0 2 4 5 7 9 11;
#P window linecount 8;
#P comment 47 112 100 196617 New version using Lobjects. Sieves to the
nearest pitch over the full range of midi key numbers including fractions
for alternate tunings.;
#P window linecount 1;
#P newex 198 253 43 196617 noteout;
#P newex 198 219 88 196617 makenote 64 250;
#P newex 198 169 54 196617 NewSieve;
#P window setfont “Sans Serif” 24.;
#P comment 47 59 135 196632 NewSieve;
#P window setfont “Sans Serif” 9.;
#P comment 47 96 119 196617 author: Gary Lee Nelson;
#P comment 276 98 77 196617 C major;
#P comment 363 98 82 196617 Enigmatic scale;
#P window linecount 2;
#P comment 457 85 36 196617 open fifth;
#P window linecount 1;
#P comment 504 98 30 196617 dim 7;
#P comment 241 197 100 196617 no repeated pitches;
#P comment 554 97 100 196617 chromatic scale;
#P fasten 12 0 8 1 282 138 247 138;
#P fasten 13 0 8 1 368 144 247 144;
#P fasten 17 0 8 1 463 150 247 150;
#P fasten 19 0 8 1 508 156 247 156;
#P fasten 20 0 8 1 559 163 247 163;
#P connect 9 1 10 1;
#P connect 9 0 10 0;
#P connect 18 0 9 0;
#P connect 8 0 18 0;
#P connect 14 0 8 0;
#P connect 15 0 14 0;
#P connect 16 0 15 0;
#P window clipboard copycount 21;

Cheers,
Gary Lee Nelson
TIMARA Department
Oberlin College
http://www.timara.oberlin.edu/GaryLeeNelson

#72914
Mar 20, 2006 at 3:16pm

On 20-Mar-2006, at 11:36, junior wrote:
> It’s all to easy programming some 12tone rows, retrograding them
> etc., but how do *you* get less atonal melodies?

I won’t offer Litter Power because this is stuff you can readily do
with standard Max objects. For instance: table.

table 0 2 4 5 7 9 11 12 14 16 17 21 23 24 …

(continuing the table, setting it up for Ab minor, etc. left as an
exercise for the reader).

Send any numbers you want to the table and out comes something
guaranteed diatonic.

Is that hard?

If what you want is something that sounds like a real tonal melody
with functional tonic/dominant tension/release… now, that’s a bit
more tricky. You may find some of Peter Elsea’s list objects helpful
for that, and someone has written some set class objects that might
be helpful.

– P.

PS:
> you better get some examples at hand

Est-ce que tu a dejas vu des examples chez http://www.bek.no/
~pcastine/Litter/Examples/ ?

————– http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/ ————-
Peter Castine | +–> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
|…………………………………………….
p@castine.de | iCE: Sequencing, Recording, and Interface Building
pcastine@gmx.net | for Max/MSP
pcastine@bek.no | http://www.dspaudio.com/ Extremely cool
4-15@kagi.com |…………………………………………….
| home|chez nous|wir|i nostri http://www.castine.de/

#72915
Mar 20, 2006 at 3:26pm

I second the Elsea vote… he’s also got a nice fuzzy logic tutorial which might give you some ideas.

J.

#72916
Mar 20, 2006 at 3:35pm

On 20-Mar-2006, at 13:09, Vincent Goudard wrote:
> Made me think of indian raga hierarchy of note, where
> any note of the scale has a name and a “probability”

Which reminds me, in turn, of this:

Any college student who was subjected to Piston’s Harmony may recall
his description of the likelihood of individual harmonic steps of the
scale, even giving a sketch for a first-order Markov chain of
harmonic progression.

Page 18 in the 3rd (1962) edition.

You could probably get some wandering wallpaper diatonic non-
structure out of this approach.

– Peter

————– http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/ ————-
Peter Castine | +–> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
|…………………………………………….
p@castine.de | iCE: Sequencing, Recording, and Interface Building
pcastine@gmx.net | for Max/MSP
pcastine@bek.no | http://www.dspaudio.com/ Extremely cool
4-15@kagi.com |…………………………………………….
| home|chez nous|wir|i nostri http://www.castine.de/

#72917
Mar 21, 2006 at 10:23am

Hi j,
i don’t know what the hell you’r talking about but here’s some of my advise:
the only thing i know is, drink less rocheforts and patch some more.
cheers, Dr Jerre

#72918
Mar 21, 2006 at 12:06pm

also look at the midi scale example… the COLLective called ‘Harmonic Mysteries’

#72919
Mar 21, 2006 at 6:21pm

thank you all for you replies…

Quote: Peter Castine wrote on Mon, 20 March 2006 08:16
—————————————————-
> I won’t offer Litter Power because this is stuff you can readily do
> with standard Max objects.

i know, max was pretty much made for this kind of stuff, was just making a bad joke…

> table 0 2 4 5 7 9 11 12 14 16 17 21 23 24 …
> exercise for the reader).
>
> Send any numbers you want to the table and out comes something
> guaranteed diatonic.
>
> Is that hard?

not at all, I’ve been doing it, but it always sticks at that same mediocre level, maybe I need to elaborate on that technique a bit…
>
> If what you want is something that sounds like a real tonal melody
> with functional tonic/dominant tension/release… now, that’s a bit
> more tricky.

looking for everything really, ideally, i’d like an xy control to fade between tonal/atonal and funk/monk, would be oretty nice, but I guess that will be tricky too : )
> Est-ce que tu a dejas vu des examples chez http://www.bek.no/

no I haven’t, will do and you’re talking french to me again ; )

#72920
Mar 21, 2006 at 6:29pm

Quote: Gary Lee Nelson wrote on Mon, 20 March 2006 05:23
—————————————————-
> One of the most useful methods for applying order to “atonal” structure is
> the sieve. I made an abstraction called NewSieve (I had several older

thanks for that, will come in handy…
next up are dynamics and rythm, preferably in conjunction, so if you have some more, I’d be delighted to deconstruct them.
keeps surprising me how people always have their own custom methods in max. on the other hand, it keeps surprising me how lazy people can get with ma -myself included….

>vg said:
>Made me think of indian raga hierarchy of note, where
any note of the scale has a name and a “probability”

>The vadi, samvadi, vivadi and anuvadi namely, sonant, consonant,
dissonant and anuvadi
are compared to the king, the minister, the enemy and the servant,
respectively.

>My patch is under construction and just ugly and mixed in a messy
wire net, I can send it to you if you really want..

as you please, sounds nice, don’t hesitate if you feel like putting something up…

thanks

j

ps @j900 nice intro, you spammer : )

#72921
Mar 21, 2006 at 6:47pm

Quote: jbmaxwell@btinternet.com wrote on Mon, 20 March 2006 08:26
—————————————————-
> I second the Elsea vote… he’s also got a nice fuzzy logic tutorial which might give you some ideas.
—————————————————-

thanks, this is the link to the paper if anyone might be interested http://arts.ucsc.edu/ems/music/research/FuzzyLogicTutor/Fuzz yTut.html

#72922

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