Forums > MaxMSP

How to make my MIDI music make sense?

April 18, 2007 | 2:13 pm

Alright, this maybe stupid question for some of you….but I still want to ask around and give it a try.

My project is to video tracking 5 different colors by using iSight in jitter. I don’t have any problem in this part. I have successfully get the each color position from camera (x,y). What I am going to do is send those numbers into Max and MSP. However, when I try to use those numbers as MIDI note, the music come out just doesn’t make any sense to me. Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming information so the music will not sounds so ugly?

If I can not use any way to help make my MIDI music sounds better, I will probably just use loops and send those position numbers to groove~ or something like that…..but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always sounds the same.

I appreciate any advices, suggestions….thank you so much


April 18, 2007 | 5:51 pm

Quote: CKNY wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 07:13
—————————————————-
> Alright, this maybe stupid question for some of you….but I still want to ask around and give it a try.
>
> My project is to video tracking 5 different colors by using iSight in jitter. I don’t have any problem in this part. I have successfully get the each color position from camera (x,y). What I am going to do is send those numbers into Max and MSP. However, when I try to use those numbers as MIDI note, the music come out just doesn’t make any sense to me. Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming information so the music will not sounds so ugly?
>
> If I can not use any way to help make my MIDI music sounds better, I will probably just use loops and send those position numbers to groove~ or something like that…..but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always sounds the same.
>
> I appreciate any advices, suggestions….thank you so much
>
>
—————————————————-

This is a huge question, especially not knowing your aesthetic.

Perhaps limiting the MIDI pitch numbers to a musical scale that you like might get you moving in a prettier direction.

mz


April 19, 2007 | 1:15 pm

Quote: CKNY wrote on Wed, 18 April 2007 16:13
—————————————————-
> What I am going to do is send those numbers into Max and MSP. However, when I try to use those numbers as MIDI note, the music come out just doesn’t make any sense to me. Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming information so the music will not sounds so ugly?
>
> I appreciate any advices, suggestions….thank you so much
>
—————————————————-

What you need to do is called "composition".

You need to decide what kinds of sounds (scales, harmonies, rhythms, melodies, textures, counterpoint, dynamics, articulation, agogic, etc.) you want. Then you need to invent a way to map the possible numbers your Jitter patch is generating to produce the music you want.

It can be really quite simple, but you do have to make decisions and shape your input. This is what algorithmic composition is about.


April 20, 2007 | 7:02 am

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming
> information so the music will not sounds so ugly?

LOL

> …but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always
> sounds the same.

ROFL

> I appreciate any advices, suggestions….thank you so much

I would suggest to switch on the radio, then your music is in defined
"beauty" space – nobody will recognize its not related to your images…

Sorry, but what is ugly music? I do make music with loops, and it never
sounds the same (but you might find it ugly… ;-)

Anybody who would have suggestions would describe his own music, the fun
about creativity is that YOU create YOUR music. So who else could answer
your question but you to yourself.???

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


April 20, 2007 | 6:11 pm

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 01:02
—————————————————-
> UCDMSRA schrieb:
> > Is there any way (patches/objects) can help me to arrange my incoming
> > information so the music will not sounds so ugly?
>
> LOL
>
> > …but once I use loops I am so afraid that my music will always
> > sounds the same.
>
> ROFL
>
> > I appreciate any advices, suggestions….thank you so much
>
> I would suggest to switch on the radio, then your music is in defined
> "beauty" space – nobody will recognize its not related to your images…
>
> Sorry, but what is ugly music? I do make music with loops, and it never
> sounds the same (but you might find it ugly… ;-)
>
> Anybody who would have suggestions would describe his own music, the fun
> about creativity is that YOU create YOUR music. So who else could answer
> your question but you to yourself.???
>
> Stefan
>
> —
> Stefan Tiedje————x——-
> –_____———–|————–
> –(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
> — _|_)—-|—–()————–
> ———-()——–www.ccmix.com
>
>
—————————————————-

Sorry I think you might misunderstood what I mean. I have very bad English. Now I understand if I want to make my MIDI playback more better, I got to have a idea how to arrange those MIDI note. But what I am more interest to do right now is to make loops. But I am really new to Max/MSP, I don’t quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different every time. What I can think of right now is just using "groove~", "fft~" and "combfilter~" and send variable information which I get from video tracking so that loops will sounds a little bit different because the information is changing.

My idea for my project is save around 20 loops in MSP (all the loops are in the same or very close rpm range) with "fft~" and "combfilter~". There will be 3 to 4 loops playback at the same time. All the Loops will randomly change every 10 seconds by metro…..but I need better ideas…….

Do you or does anybody have any better idea of making better loops so even I only have 3 or 4 loops I will still make them sound different every time (not always sounds the same, I don’t mean "ugly")? I am very very very appreciate If anyone can show me a way to see any helpful tutorial or tell me any object I don’t know.

thanks


April 20, 2007 | 7:05 pm

I don’t know if this is the kind of thing you mean, but have a look
at AntiLoop at:

http://www.estatesound.com/content.php?page=software.php

> I don’t quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different
> every time.

Different in what way?

Do you mean rhythmic changes – ie beat slicing and re-arranging?
Or tonal changes – loudness of individual beats (accents), filtering,
pitch shifting, etc etc etc?
Changes on the beat (or part of beat) or over a period of a bar or so?
Do you mean making different combinations of several loops playing
simultaneously? (1+2+4; 2+4+8; 1+5+3 etc)

Or something else entirely?

Once you have some idea what you want to hear, or roughly what you
want to have happen, it becomes a lot easier to design a process to
do that.

David


April 20, 2007 | 11:31 pm

Quote: david stevens wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 13:05
—————————————————-
> I don’t know if this is the kind of thing you mean, but have a look
> at AntiLoop at:
>
> http://www.estatesound.com/content.php?page=software.php
>
> > I don’t quiet understand how you make your loops sounds different
> > every time.
>
> Different in what way?
>
> Do you mean rhythmic changes – ie beat slicing and re-arranging?
> Or tonal changes – loudness of individual beats (accents), filtering,
> pitch shifting, etc etc etc?
> Changes on the beat (or part of beat) or over a period of a bar or so?
> Do you mean making different combinations of several loops playing
> simultaneously? (1+2+4; 2+4+8; 1+5+3 etc)
>
> Or something else entirely?
>
> Once you have some idea what you want to hear, or roughly what you
> want to have happen, it becomes a lot easier to design a process to
> do that.
>
> David
>
>
>
—————————————————-

Yes, my original idea is to make different combinations of several different loops playing simultaneously (1+2+4; 2+4+9….) and all the loops are in the same or very close rpm range. Because I haven’t use MSP for much time so that’s the only idea I can think of with my abilities of using MSP right now. However, I am also very interesting in beat slicing and re-arrangement. Is there any objects I can use for beat slicing and re-arrange? I know even I use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.

thanks


April 21, 2007 | 12:14 am

check out the modsquad patch in the examples folder… i think you may
be pleased and inspired.

UCDMSRA wrote:
> Yes, my original idea is to make different combinations of several different loops playing simultaneously (1+2+4; 2+4+9….) and all the loops are in the same or very close rpm range. Because I haven’t use MSP for much time so that’s the only idea I can think of with my abilities of using MSP right now. However, I am also very interesting in beat slicing and re-arrangement. Is there any objects I can use for beat slicing and re-arrange? I know even I use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.



_j
April 21, 2007 | 12:31 am

this question is troublesome… I don’t like it!


April 21, 2007 | 4:19 am

Quote: jamez wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 18:31
—————————————————-
> this question is troublesome… I don’t like it!
—————————————————-

I know this question is stupid and I kind of sorry for asking this question. After learning Max/MSP for just ONE MONTH, I gradually know I still have long way to go.

Actually, I am the beginner of Max/MSP. I respect all of you and I hope I will getting stronger if I learn hard and learn quickly. I believe everyone has been the "beginner" before just like me and I really appreciate people who don’t feel annoying and trouble for my stupid question.

To be honestly I am not good at audio part. Film/Video and Motion Graphic is probably my major field. I just want to learn more and know more about computer music….and I will do my best to go this way.


April 21, 2007 | 6:52 am

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> Sorry I think you might misunderstood what I mean.

….

> Do you or does anybody have any better idea of making better loops so
> even I only have 3 or 4 loops I will still make them sound different
> every time (not always sounds the same, I don’t mean "ugly")?

It’s as Peter said. What you ask for is called "composition".
If I tell you what I do with loops a term like BPM would not fit, and I
don’t store a single loop.
The way you talk about uglyness let me think, that you didn’t dive too
much into composition or even into listening to other music than the
ugly music of waiting loops on the phone or these annoying repeating
music of games. If you want to learn composing and/or playing an
instrument, the first thing to do is to listen.
If you know what is ugly, you still haven’t found out what is beauty,
though you might have an idea of it.
Based on that you would modify the ugly till you transformed it into
your personal beauty.

If you listen to a loop and every 4 seconds there is a "boom", and you
think thats ugly, try to get rid of the "boom", or place it somewhere
else or replace it with a "baam". Just as a starting point…
And listen again….

Only after you found a way to modify your loops into something more
interesting, you can start to think about a way to link your visuals
with parameters of your sound generation.

But still its all about listening…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


April 21, 2007 | 7:07 am

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> Quote: jamez wrote on Fri, 20 April 2007 18:31
> —————————————————-
>> this question is troublesome… I don’t like it!
> —————————————————-

I like troublesome questions, actually these are the only interesting
ones… ;-)

> I know this question is stupid and I kind of sorry for asking this
> question.

Don’t feel sorry. It might sound stupid for some, but for you its an
essential one. You deserve an answer. You got answers, though they might
not be what you expected…

> After learning Max/MSP for just ONE MONTH, I gradually know
> I still have long way to go.

It looks like there is more than skills in Max/MSP what you want to
learn. My answers where related to the other skills you want to develop.
I think they are much more important than patching skills…

> To be honestly I am not good at audio part. Film/Video and Motion
> Graphic is probably my major field. I just want to learn more and
> know more about computer music….and I will do my best to go this
> way.

I can tell you there is a big demand. Whenever I watch my son playing
computer games, I am buffled about the quality of the graphics with a
pretty high artistic degree (ignoring personal taste). At the same time
its unbelievable how bad the music is… It would be the ideal field for
algorithmic composition, but its not explored yet…

I can only encourage you to go your way, it won’t be a short one though.
Take your time, listen to a lot of music (definitely NOT in the radio),
open your ears and learn…

All the best, you’re welcome

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


April 21, 2007 | 8:51 am

So that you realise what you’re getting in to – it _is going to take
a while for you to get up to speed with max and msp. But it’s worth
it – and it never stops! And having a specific "instrument" that you
want to build makes it a lot easier. Do take the time to write out
the process of what you want to do. Maybe draw a kind of flow diagram.

A lot of the answers you seek are in the tutorials – it’s really
really important to work through them, as that’s how you’ll absorb
the basic concepts for working with max.

There’s two ways of playing your loops – sfplay~ and something based
on buffer~s. For what you want to do, I would use buffer~. You could
either have a buffer~ for every single loop, or have (say) twice the
number of buffer~s that you want playing at once, and load them
dynamically using the read or replace commands. Ie buffer~s A,B & C
playing loops 1+5+4, whilst loops 2+7+3 are being loaded into
buffer~s D,E & F.
See the buffer~ help patch and the relevant Tutorials (sorry – I
believe that should now be Torturials).

As you want several buffers to stay in sync, you should look at using
wave~ to read them rather than groove~. I’d suggest making a patch
with a couple of buffer~s and wave~s to read them, and figure out how
to drive the wave~s in sync. (Hint – you’ll need a ramp going from 0.
to 1.)
Then duplicate that part of the patch, and set up something that
reloads one pair of buffers whilst the other 2 are playing; and
something that switches the ramp between the two pairs. (And that
triggers the load messages once at the right moment ).

If you want to randomise this process, though there are some relevant
objects in the standard distro, you might also look at the free bit
of the Litter Objects package, and the RTC Library (free). Look on
maxobjects.com to find them.

Again, figuring out the flow of the process on paper will help you a
lot at this point.

HTH

David

On 21 Apr 2007, at 0:31, UCDMSRA wrote:

>
> Yes, my original idea is to make different combinations of several
> different loops playing simultaneously (1+2+4; 2+4+9….) and all
> the loops are in the same or very close rpm range. Because I
> haven’t use MSP for much time so that’s the only idea I can think
> of with my abilities of using MSP right now. However, I am also
> very interesting in beat slicing and re-arrangement. Is there any
> objects I can use for beat slicing and re-arrange? I know even I
> use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar
> to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always
> sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.
>


April 21, 2007 | 9:06 am

In Film/Video and Motion Graphic field, there are two kinds of people: Real Artists and Commercial Artists. Generally we are all struggle between those two status because we want to become real artists but we also need money to survive. I agree that commercial stuff sometimes is really ugly.

I guess I am not what somebody called "musician" because I didn’t learn much composition stuff. I saw many peoples project and I do envy their understanding of how to control the MIDI flow and other informations by using math and algorism. Until now I still can not write good music and build good patches like them so that’s why I call my music "ugly"…… it is immature and need a lot of improvement.

I am neither musician nor audio guy, but I love film and music. Many of my friends in film/video production field doesn’t really care much about sound design and music and that’s not me….I hate video guy who doesn’t care anything about sound. I still remember some words I saw in the film "The pursuit of Happiness"….."never let anybody tell you you can’t do something…". Although I am very weak because of laking music composition background but I still don’t want to give up. I know I can do something. Thank you for supporting me.


April 21, 2007 | 9:32 am

Quote: david stevens wrote on Sat, 21 April 2007 02:51
—————————————————-

>
> There’s two ways of playing your loops – sfplay~ and something based
> on buffer~s. For what you want to do, I would use buffer~. You could
> either have a buffer~ for every single loop, or have (say) twice the
> number of buffer~s that you want playing at once, and load them
> dynamically using the read or replace commands. Ie buffer~s A,B & C
> playing loops 1+5+4, whilst loops 2+7+3 are being loaded into
> buffer~s D,E & F.
> See the buffer~ help patch and the relevant Tutorials (sorry – I
> believe that should now be Torturials).
>
> As you want several buffers to stay in sync, you should look at using
> wave~ to read them rather than groove~. I’d suggest making a patch
> with a couple of buffer~s and wave~s to read them, and figure out how
> to drive the wave~s in sync. (Hint – you’ll need a ramp going from 0.
> to 1.)
> Then duplicate that part of the patch, and set up something that
> reloads one pair of buffers whilst the other 2 are playing; and
> something that switches the ramp between the two pairs. (And that
> triggers the load messages once at the right moment ).
>
> If you want to randomise this process, though there are some relevant
> objects in the standard distro, you might also look at the free bit
> of the Litter Objects package, and the RTC Library (free). Look on
> maxobjects.com to find them.
>
> Again, figuring out the flow of the process on paper will help you a
> lot at this point.
>
> HTH
>
> David
>
>
>
> On 21 Apr 2007, at 0:31, UCDMSRA wrote:
>

You are right, tutorials have many answers. I did play with groove~ and buffer~ for a while but I don’t know wave~. And one more thing you are right about is I can not get my loops sync perfectly. I saw some people also talking about loops sync problems over here but I still couldn’t get it….

I also have trouble loading loops because I need to load a lot of loops at the same time (at least 20 loops at the same time for my video tracking). When I load bunch of loops I found my computer started slow down and it also started effect jitter part….everything became very weird….I don’t know why. (What I did is just use buffer~ and groove~ )

However now I know I can play with more objects I didn’t know before. Thank you for your information. At least I have right direction to get my things right.


April 21, 2007 | 9:55 am

Your other option would be to use Ableton Live with Audio Damage’s
wonderful Replicant plug in.

http://www.audiodamage.com/

Or of course there’s Cycling74′s Radial, which will munge loops out
of the box. But it’s not ready for MacIntel and it’s Mac only.

David

On 21 Apr 2007, at 10:06, UCDMSRA wrote:
>
> I am neither musician nor audio guy, but I love film and music.
> Many of my friends in film/video production field doesn’t really
> care much about sound design and music and that’s not me….I hate
> video guy who doesn’t care anything about sound. I still remember
> some words I saw in the film "The pursuit of Happiness"….."never
> let anybody tell you you can’t do something…". Although I am very
> weak because of laking music composition background but I still
> don’t want to give up. I know I can do something. Thank you for
> supporting me.


April 21, 2007 | 11:39 am

UCDMSRA skrev:
> I know even I use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.
For this you actually want *different* loops. Playing a small set of
loops unchanged for 10 or 15 minutes isn’t a good idea*. Even the mnml
guys don’t do that. SO: Here you will need to make good use of stop
buttons, and really spend some time exploring what you want to have
happen musically.

*= unless your loops are 10-15 minutes long ;-)

Andreas


April 21, 2007 | 5:21 pm


April 21, 2007 | 5:45 pm

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Sat, 21 April 2007 10:21
—————————————————-
> At 3:32 AM -0600 4/21/07, UCDMSRA wrote:
> >However now I know I can play with more objects I didn’t know before. T
>
> I’ve given this advice on starting out with Max/MSP before, but I think it still holds:
>

I should have this posting printed, poster-sized, to hand in my office.

> See if there are any classes/seminars in your area. CNMAT at U.C. Berkeley have the occasional Max/MSP class, for example.
>

Thanks for the plug. See:

http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/Max_MSP2007.html

For this summer’s schedule.

mz


April 22, 2007 | 9:23 pm

> >
>
> Thanks for the plug. See:
>
> http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/Max_MSP2007.html
>
> For this summer’s schedule.
>
> mz
>
>
—————————————————-

I live in Denver Colorado right now. Unfortunately we don’t have any Max/MSP class in my school (even I am in graduate program). I also ask my friends in CU-Boulder but they also don’t know who can teach me Max/MSP. Nobody teaches Max/MSP here and nobody care. It is kind of difficult for me try to study Max/MSP by myself especially I am the beginner. What I have is tutorial and I don’t even have people to ask questions if I can not figure out the tutorial. I am on my own but I am very happy that many people help me out and give me good directions here. I will keep going nad never give up.


April 22, 2007 | 9:48 pm

Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Sat, 21 April 2007 05:39
—————————————————-
> UCDMSRA skrev:
> > I know even I use different loops combination, they will all be sounds familiar to audience after 10 or 15 minutes. Just want to make loops always sounds "flash" or "not the same thing" to the audience.
> For this you actually want *different* loops. Playing a small set of
> loops unchanged for 10 or 15 minutes isn’t a good idea*. Even the mnml
> guys don’t do that. SO: Here you will need to make good use of stop
> buttons, and really spend some time exploring what you want to have
> happen musically.
>
> *= unless your loops are 10-15 minutes long ;-)
>
> Andreas
>
—————————————————-

So you think audience will very easy to get tired even I have 20 different loops play randomly?……LOL

Basically I can not make my music stop unpredictably unless I have a very good reason. My loops are run according to my jitter video tracking output.

I think I will make some gate. If video tracking speed is going fast above some limit, music changes to the loops (but it gonna only play around 2 or 3 minutes). If video tracking speed is under the limit, music will switch to only very low end sounds for background music with some MIDI note or even stop.

Do you think audience will get tired easy if the loops run 3 minutes? or I should make loops run only 1 or 2 minutes? Do you think it will help if I put additional effects like FFT~ or Combfilter~ into the loops?a

thanks


April 22, 2007 | 11:18 pm

You might check with the folks in the Digital Media Studies program at the University of Denver. I believe they have taught a Max/MSP class now and then.

http://dms.du.edu/


April 23, 2007 | 6:41 am

On 22 Apr 2007, at 22:23, UCDMSRA wrote:

> It is kind of difficult for me try to study Max/MSP by myself
> especially I am the beginner. What I have is tutorial and I don’t
> even have people to ask questions if I can not figure out the
> tutorial.

That’s how most of us started; working through the tutorials on our
own, pulling the help patches apart, and piece by piece building up a
patch to fulfil a particular artistic purpose. Classes in Max are a
fairly new arrival (at least in Europe) It can be done!
And, as you say, there is great help available here. The only caveat
is to try to figure something out yourself first (and to mention that
if you finally post!), and think out your question to the list
carefully – specify what you’re trying to do, exactly what you’re not
clear about or what isn’t working and so on. Then you’ll get great
support from the list.

David


April 23, 2007 | 10:16 am

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> I am on my own but I am very happy that many people help me out and
> give me good directions here. I will keep going nad never give up.

Good to hear you’re encouraged. When I started Max/MSP there was no such
thing as courses, and the first lesson I taught in Berlin might have
been the first ever done there… (Man I was so bad back then… ;-)

UCDMSRA schrieb:
> Do you think audience will get tired easy if the loops run 3 minutes?
> or I should make loops run only 1 or 2 minutes? Do you think it will
> help if I put additional effects like FFT~ or Combfilter~ into the
> loops?a

Usually the artist is more sensitive to boredom than the audience, if
you listen yourself, you should be able to tell. One thing to be aware
of though, is the opposite. (Most video artists I know seem not to be
aware of this…). Its the time an unprepared audience member would need
to grab what’s going on. A feeling for the right time when something has
to change. It needs to feel good no matter how often you listen to it.
It just has to be right! And best is if its right for the first time…
(though its not a problem if you don’t grab everything the first time
you listen to a piece, it will encourage the listener to listen again,
to get deeper into it, to explore different levels of depth…)

If you come to New York, visit the Dreamhouse of LaMonte Young. Might be
a lesson of how interesting the same can be…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


April 24, 2007 | 6:35 pm

> to grab what’s going on. A feeling for the right time when something has
> to change. It needs to feel good no matter how often you listen to it.
> It just has to be right! And best is if its right for the first time…
> (though its not a problem if you don’t grab everything the first time
> you listen to a piece, it will encourage the listener to listen again,
> to get deeper into it, to explore different levels of depth…)
>
> If you come to New York, visit the Dreamhouse of LaMonte Young. Might be
> a lesson of how interesting the same can be…
>
> Stefan

Thanks for your advice. I think I need to put all my time into this project and try to get the best "feeling". I probably need to make some logic patch in jitter in order to decide which time is the best time to play loops and which time is the best time not to play or play others.

According to the tutorial, they said that some software can make loop points but they didn’t point out "which" software can make it. It is a shame to ask this but can anybody tell me which software can make loop points? and How?

I think Logic Pro probably can make loop point but I don’t have Logic Pro. My school has Pro Tools but I have never made loop points before so I don’t know Pro Tools can make it or not.

thanks


April 24, 2007 | 6:58 pm


April 24, 2007 | 10:03 pm


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