In Regards to Pluggo

Well I already addressed this with my comment on how Max is “many things to many people,” so we all already know this to be true. But I guess it doesn’t hurt to say it again.

When I commented on the pairing of Max and Live I was thinking back to the inception of Max and the reasons behind it, namely its application to interactive computer music which is inherently tied to performance. Live as a “live sequencing instrument” seems to me to be a good environment for this. Timeline object on steroids indeed.

@Live bashers:

Lots of ignorant statements being made about Live here I’m afraid. Not every tool works for every job. Of course I use Finale and Logic when I work with scored parts because those are the tools that work for that application. But to dismiss Live as some toy, well, frankly, that doesn’t sound very imaginative to me…

#157693

Well I already addressed this with my comment on how Max is “many things to many people,” so we all already know this to be true. But I guess it doesn’t hurt to say it again.

When I commented on the pairing of Max and Live I was thinking back to the inception of Max and the reasons behind it, namely its application to interactive computer music which is inherently tied to performance. Live as a “live sequencing instrument” seems to me to be a good environment for this. Timeline object on steroids indeed.

@Live bashers:

Lots of ignorant statements being made about Live here I’m afraid. Not every tool works for every job. Of course I use Finale and Logic when I work with scored parts because those are the tools that work for that application. But to dismiss Live as some toy, well, frankly, that doesn’t sound very imaginative to me…

I’m with you nice pairing… a pairing like operating systems and word processors. .0001% as useful as operating systems and applications.

#157694
May 14, 2009 at 10:41pm

In Regards to Pluggo

Now that we have the answer from C74 on the future of pluggo (or lack there of), I just want to ask a few questions regarding this sad article: http://www.cycling74.com/story/2009/5/14/101259/594

First, how much would someone who wanted to use Pluggo for Max5 have to pay to make pluggo “cost effective”? In the other thread, the idea was tossed around for charging for pluggo, due to the number of man hours the transition to Max 5 has seemed to demand. The article states that pluggo is not cost effective (which is understandable, granted it was free before), so how much would it have to cost to make it cost effective?

Also, in an attempt to reduce the number of man hours, what if pluggo was suitable for only a single plug in specification rather than three, or only a single platform rather than two? While not ideal, a wisely chosen specification and platform could appease the large majority of customers who’ve been affected by pluggo’s dissolution.

Just some friendly questions.

#43929
May 14, 2009 at 10:55pm

just a guess, but I think you’re better off doing a startup, becoming an official developer, writing code that just keeps track of the parameters, presets and then just sends the audio out an intermediate server like jack, then that server could send out audio, bring it back and send it back in

protools audio—>UpstartRTAS——>Upstart.app—–>Upstart.in~

Upstart.out~—->upstart.app——>upstartRTAS—–>protools

Then your UpstartRTAS, UpstartVST and UpstartAu can all be relatively tiny and easy to maintain, you have one central app to manage and it can be compatible with everything under the sun via jack, sound flower or TCP/IP

not really a cycling74 thing. I’d donate a couple hundred bucks to see what comes out.

#157641
May 14, 2009 at 10:59pm
ComfortableInClouds wrote on Thu, 14 May 2009 17:41
Also, in an attempt to reduce the number of man hours, what if pluggo was suitable for only a single plug in specification rather than three, or only a single platform rather than two? While not ideal, a wisely chosen specification and platform could appease the large majority of customers who’ve been affected by pluggo’s dissolution.

If you’re going to go this far I’d say Max for Live is already the logical next step beyond what you’re talking about and that doesn’t even take into account the fact that Live is multi-platform. Granted Live itself is the missing piece of the puzzle.

I have mixed feelings about all this because I can understand being upset if you don’t already use Live and have no intentions of switching. But I *do* use Live so I’m actually pretty happy about this development.

#157642
May 15, 2009 at 12:20am

…but if i am not using live, i am left with fewer options. period.

maybe thats part of the changing of the guards…
am i the only one, who has the feeling, that the slashing of the list coincides with a different signal2noise ratio in postings here?
(oh man, do i feel old writing such things…)

all in all, pure data starts looking more and more attractive

h

#157643
May 15, 2009 at 7:51am
kochhw wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 01:20
all in all, pure data starts looking more and more attractive

and Supercollider’s ability to export as plugin as well… though it looks a little more convoluted…

Matthew Aidekman wrote on Thu, 14 May 2009 23:55
protools audio—>UpstartRTAS——>Upstart.app—–>Upstart.in~

Upstart.out~—->upstart.app——>upstartRTAS—–>protools

one good thing about this idea is that you could use Soundflower to do this (until they bin it as well) Just use simple sends and returns and interapplication midi to control. not as easy, but more flexible.

Let’s just hope live goes belly up, so they’ll have to work with a proper DAW Wink

pa

#157644
May 15, 2009 at 12:53pm
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 01:51
kochhw wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 01:20
all in all, pure data starts looking more and more attractive

and Supercollider’s ability to export as plugin as well… though it looks a little more convoluted…

Matthew Aidekman wrote on Thu, 14 May 2009 23:55
protools audio—>UpstartRTAS——>Upstart.app—–>Upstart.in~

Upstart.out~—->upstart.app——>upstartRTAS—–>protools

one good thing about this idea is that you could use Soundflower to do this (until they bin it as well) Just use simple sends and returns and interapplication midi to control. not as easy, but more flexible.

Let’s just hope live goes belly up, so they’ll have to work with a proper DAW Wink

pa

Or, use wormhole: http://plasq.com/wormhole

“Can I use Wormhole2 to send audio from application to application on the same computer?
A. Yes, that is possible as every modern operating system has a network loopback device, making it possible to send network packets from one application to another. However, you still have to deal with network latency when using Wormhole2 on just one machine. As a matter of fact the network latency is worse with just one machine as its network stack has to deal with both sending and receiving.”

VST and AU.

#157645
May 15, 2009 at 1:21pm

Well, this sucks!

Anyway, I’ve been using REAPER as my DAW since v. 1 and it has ReaRoute which allows me to route a huge number of channels of audio between Max and REAPER, like Rewire, but it seems to work better. There’s probably a lot more overhead than if I’d just been able to export my patches as .dlls and run them as plug-ins within REAPER but I guess I’m going to have to stick with this method indefinitely.

#157646
May 15, 2009 at 1:29pm
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let’s just hope live goes belly up, so they’ll have to work with a proper DAW Wink

pa

This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a “proper DAW” to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a “live sequencing instrument” (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the “performance practice” side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary…

#157647
May 15, 2009 at 1:58pm
stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 14:29
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let’s just hope live goes belly up, so they’ll have to work with a proper DAW Wink

pa

…because it was never envisioned as a “proper DAW” to begin with.

The only thing I can say is that it sadly shows in sound quality. Take a soundfile, bounce it back with a clean reverb, and check the lost in resolution…

anyway, I don’t want to start and anti-Live flame thread, I wish them the best, but I think it is at least as limited as the DAWs, but in its own way. I am happy that some people find it useful, and very disappointed that it has been chosen as the only one supported by Cycling.

Anyone has good experience with this:
sonicbirth.sourceforge.net

pa

#157648
May 15, 2009 at 4:56pm

Who told you that we have to stick with the stupid Ableton Live this is not a program for serious composers it is only for loop makers,
dance e.t.c.

You should have made something like Reaktor that you can built a patch into the plugin in any platform.

I have Ableton Live this program is not for serious composer it does not have score nothing you just play loops yeah very serious.

You should have collaborated with Logic, Cubase, DP, they are far more serious programs than Ableton Live.

Shame on you.

#157649
May 15, 2009 at 5:02pm

shame on you lol

wtf?

#157650
May 15, 2009 at 5:21pm

I’m bummed as I have no plans whatsoever on using Live. I’ve used pluggo on MANY albums and soundtracks in DP for the last 10 years or so. Luckily I’m still on a 10.4 g5 for recording and sequencing so I can still get some more mileage aout of pluggo. Some other alternatives to max/pluggo are Plogue Bidule and Reaktor. I use Bidule all the time for hosting VIs on separate machines and love it. Its also a great real time modular patching environment and runs well as a plug in but with a bit more of a CPU hit then Pluggo. Its cross platform and also cheap, around 75 bux. I wonder why a tiny company like Plogue can stay on top of cross platform plug in compatibility and slightly less tiny C74 can’t. I’ve always been a champion of C74 but I think this decision of theirs blows and is a disrespect for a large chunk of their user base who rely on pluggo as part of their tool set. Oh well…..

#157651
May 15, 2009 at 6:02pm

yea, it’s funny how Bidule, Reaktor, and Supercollider are all able to export as plug ins, and yet Max, which began this whole modular thing and, thus has a significant head start on all those programs, can’t.

Max is an amazingly powerful tool, but it needs to be used in conjunction with a DAW. pluggo allowed this to be realized easily, with only a minute CPU hit. now what are Max users supposed to do short of dropping $500 on a program they don’t really want or need?

Perhaps it’s time to start learning Reaktor.

#157652
May 15, 2009 at 6:15pm

Bidule and Reaktor cannot export as plug-ins – they can run as plug-ins, which is different.

#157653
May 15, 2009 at 6:21pm

Max running in a plug in shell is basically what M4L is right???
That would be fine for me as I’m not a plug in developer
Anyone want to chime in on Reaktor? I’ve never really used it.

#157654
May 15, 2009 at 7:06pm
ComfortableInClouds wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 12:02
Max is an amazingly powerful tool, but it needs to be used in conjunction with a DAW.

i’m sorry to even step in to this, but that comment shows how little you know about max and their user base. the capabilities of max go far beyond audio applications.

#157655
May 15, 2009 at 7:16pm

max is fantastic for performance, for sound design, for generation of midi, but it lacks the basic functions of a DAW. if you think that statement is untrue, please tell me why exactly (rather than simply offering criticism without any explanation as you just did).

what do you mean exactly by the capabilites of max go far beyond audio applications? do you mean visual applications? max is a programming environment for media, if there is some other function max can (efficently and effectively) serve, please enlighten me as to what it might. perhaps more importantly, how many people actual use it for those other uses?

#157656
May 15, 2009 at 7:36pm
dimitris108 wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 10:56
Who told you that we have to stick with the stupid Ableton Live this is not a program for serious composers it is only for loop makers,
dance e.t.c…

I have Ableton Live this program is not for serious composer it does not have score nothing you just play loops yeah very serious.

Um, that is absolute horseshit. It really depends on your work flow and aesthetics. You seem to be equating “serious composers” with people who use scores and do not use loops. Some might argue that scores are older, outdated approaches to composing. Also, repetition (loops) are, and have been (dating back to written sources of Gregorian chant), one of the main ways form and coherence is created in music. I use Live, as well as max/msp, dp, reaktor, peak, finale. I find Live one of the most useful compositonal programs for my work flow. I create experimental type music, not dance music. Anyway, your comments are extremely ignorant and as I said before, horseshit.

#157657
May 15, 2009 at 8:21pm

Mister know it all a program that you can not create even your keyboard shortcut in Ableton Live this is a horseshit haha.
Very serious program.

How many sequencers have you used in your life tell us because I think you just used Ableton Live that’s why you should not have an opinion yourself.

You dont consider score part of music it is outdated that means that I am not talking to a musician.

About Loops yes it is not musical because they repeat themselves exactly the same it is not the same when a choir or instrument repeat something. The timbre changes my friend…

I think before you post something you have to know what is music and also make your own shorcuts in Ableton Live and then talk about music and program.

Let somebody else talk who knows mister know it all…

#157658
May 15, 2009 at 9:07pm

note to self – be more polite

#157659
May 15, 2009 at 9:14pm
dimitris108 wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 14:21
Mister know it all a program that you can not create even your keyboard shortcut in Ableton Live this is a horseshit haha.
Very serious program.

How many sequencers have you used in your life tell us because I think you just used Ableton Live that’s why you should not have an opinion yourself.

You dont consider score part of music it is outdated that means that I am not talking to a musician.

About Loops yes it is not musical because they repeat themselves exactly the same it is not the same when a choir or instrument repeat something. The timbre changes my friend…

I think before you post something you have to know what is music and also make your own shorcuts in Ableton Live and then talk about music and program.

Let somebody else talk who knows mister know it all…

To answer your questions:

I never tried, nor had the need, to create my own keyboard shortcuts – sounds like a good option Ableton should add.

As I mentioned I also use DP.

I said “some might argue that scores are older, outdated…” I personally do not use scores for my own music, but some do. I never said they are “not part of music”.

Digital files do repeat exactly, true, but there is nothing inherently unmusical about that.

As far as my musical credentials, I have a Doctorate in music theory, have been widely published in peer reviewed music journals, and have numerous releases out of my own compositions on a variety of labels.

Anyway, all I’m saying is that you should re-evaluate your own understanding about what “composing” is before making silly comments. There are many different types of composers and music out there, and technique defined (using a score is “serious”) or genre defined (dance music is not “serious”) approaches towards music is hierarchical and narrow minded.

#157660
May 15, 2009 at 9:20pm

Sorry comfortableinclouds, this has nothing to do with the original post. I’ll stop:)

#157661
May 16, 2009 at 3:34am

Out of interest, in relation to the OP’s post, how much would people wishing to use Pluggo with max 5 in their sequencer pay to be able to do so?
I’d really like to be able to get Pluggo with my DAW of choice (cubase4 on mac), but even a VST of max5 would be nice in a similar way to how reaktor works.

#157662
May 16, 2009 at 3:41am
the_man361 wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 21:34
Out of interest, in relation to the OP’s post, how much would people wishing to use Pluggo with max 5 in their sequencer pay to be able to do so?
I’d really like to be able to get Pluggo with my DAW of choice (cubase4 on mac), but even a VST of max5 would be nice in a similar way to how reaktor works.

Honestly I’d pay the price of Max5 over again (300 or 400 US?) for the ability to make plugins that can run in a runtime style VST. IE, unlike Reaktor, I’d like to be able to give/sell my VSTs without the user needing to own a copy of MaxVST or whatever it may be.

#157663
May 16, 2009 at 4:34am

When I went to ircam, someone made a little joke about max users black turtleneck attitude. I laughed. Have never been like that. It’s a little out of touch sure but after reading some of these posts…

Can we have that back please?

#157664
May 16, 2009 at 4:38am

Well this is a real kick in the teeth. Only bought Max on the premise that Pluggo would be coming soon. Everybody said it would eventually, I even emailed Cycling74 before I purchased to check and they said it would be in the pipeline soon but they couldn’t give a date.

So, I’m screwed. Was using Synthmaker which isn’t a patch on Max, but if Max isn’t ever going to have an export facility I don’t think it’s worth me hanging around, no matter how great it is, it just doesn’t have the main ingredient for me.

What to do now… dilemma. Maybe it might be worth learning to code from scratch..

#157665

ca4
May 16, 2009 at 7:13am

With this announcement at the same time as Max4Live, C74 effectively tells anyone not using Ableton Live to f*ck off. No matter what their future plans are – this is what they are communicating to their customers right now.

A great chunk of C74′s resources will be put to hard work chasing this tight integration with a constantly upgraded Live. This was just how Microsoft finally killed off any competition in office-applications in the 90′s – competition were forced to spend every resource chasing the ever expanding plugin-api rather than developing/refining their offering.

I have tried Live. The very controlling workflow wasnt for me. The lack of multichannel/surround mixing wasnt for me. The grainy sound quality of complex mixes wasnt for me. The automation is awkward. The severe tilt towards loop-music wasnt for me. The limited support for external hardware wasnt for me. The included basic plugins was not good enough for me (they are optimized for one special type of music). Probably I am just an oldfashioned type who happens to like experimenting with new music that is not techno or looping. Not “modern” enough right Smile

The vibe coming out of C74 says they see me as a second class customer.

#157666
May 16, 2009 at 7:35am

Fun topic !!! ouch !!! and some nice Ableton Live bashing !! Sorry guys I have to dissagree with the ‘Live’ is not for ‘real musician’ vibe!!!!!!!!! what is this; ‘Software racism’ !!!

As far as Pluggo it probably was not as popular as it should have been !! I think they should give MAX/MSP a pluggify option

#157667
May 16, 2009 at 8:39am
ongo73 wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 08:35
Sorry guys I have to dissagree with the ‘Live’ is not for ‘real musician’ vibe!!!!!!!!! what is this; ‘Software racism’ !!!

Please let’s keep the -ism out of this discussion, and let’s stay polite. I do not like Live for all the very good, rational reasons stated here:

ca4 wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 08:13
The very controlling workflow wasnt for me. The lack of multichannel/surround mixing wasnt for me. The grainy sound quality of complex mixes wasnt for me. The automation is awkward. The severe tilt towards loop-music wasnt for me.

you might like it for other very good reasons and I respect you and your music. I might even have bought your album…

My point is that by choosing only one DAW, C74 has put a significant pool of their users in the bin. I am now considering switching a whole university toward pd and sc, which means 60+ licenses, plus 80 students per year not being part of what is a lovely community.

I’ll probably start a blog on my conversion process, as I have been coding Max since 1992, MSP since 1997 and Pluggo since the free version that came with MSP… my learning curve will be hard, I might even stick to C74 because I’m too old to adapt

Wink

Peace out

pa

#157669
May 16, 2009 at 9:47am

I absolutely agree with pierre-alexandre and ca4.

What is definitely strange is that the decisions made by c74 this year go against their base users in any ways :

- hello kitty look and feel while most max users are a bunch of black dressed noisy dudes or high-tech geeks that don’t care about fanciness for different reasons. This is an exagerated stereotype, of course, but you see what i mean.

- death of the mailing list, which was the very spine of a precious community

- death of pluggo and worse, a love affair with the most commercially used software which is the absolute opposite of what base users would use as a software for composing. If you want to do electro-disco-looping, you’ll use Live of course, but max users are max users because they do something else than that and that’s why they’ve learned this tool. I don’t mean one is better than the other, don’t start to troll me here, i just say they’re just VERY different.

Taking care of the new generation of max users which actually use max AND Live together, build their arduinomes and their own reactables, while leaving the base users aside won’t really help much in terms of business at the end i think…

f.e

#157670
May 16, 2009 at 10:41am
f.e wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 10:47
Taking care of the new generation of max users which actually use max AND Live together, build their arduinomes and their own reactables, while leaving the base users aside won’t really help much in terms of business at the end i think…

I’m sure it’s not that simple. Since I use Max and Live together with monomes, Jitter, Processing and so on you presumably consider me one of this new generation. I should perhaps be flattered: I’ve been using Max for nearly 20 years and actually started the Max mailing list (when we had one – let’s not go there) sometime around 1992.

So exactly what *is* a “base user”? Clearly I’m not one. Or perhaps I’m only a base user when I’m doing ambisonic gallery installations, and a “new user” when I’m on stage?

In any case, I think it’s pretty clear why Pluggo has been killed: David’s article pretty much sums it up, as does all the careful “here be dragyns” technical text in the VST building documentation. I think there’s going to be lot of fallout here, and I think Cycling will suffer in some ways, but they didn’t really have much choice.

Whether the launch of Max4Live will lead to a dumbed-down user community – probably, but – hey – that’s been happening ever since AOL was attached to the Arpanet. It’s up to folks like you (and, who knows, me) to keep the bar held high.

#157671
May 16, 2009 at 12:05pm

Hi there,

I work (and earn money) for more than five years with Max/MSP as a musical assistant. I started working in the contemporary music scene with “serious” composers. Now I work more and more with theater companies (with technicians, composers and musicians). This work that was centered on music is now going in very different directions : music, video, light design, stage design, robotic…

In my every day work, I develop max/pd standalones for complex and dedicated plays or installation and pluggo plug-ins for simple nonstandard effects.

I can assure you that a lot of people I’m working with use live, not because of the disco-techno-looping facilities it features but because live fits their needs of syncing the music, the events with the stage, the actors…

You can’t deny the fact that live has introduced an new way to make/produce/organize/compose/perform music even if doesn’t fit everyone’s needs (I doesn’t fit all mines, but who uses only one software to compose ?).

In can also assure you that these people are more and more interested in max/msp and pure data because there are lots of things that live or every other DAWs can’t do.

When Max5 was announced, I wasn’t a big fan of the round-cornered, hello kitty look as you like to call it. But I must admit that it is now easier for me to present my work and learn max/msp to other. Max5 appears to be less a high-tech geek tool than it used to be. I’m also more productive with max5.

For all this reasons, I’m really excited about Max4Live and at the same time disappointed by pluggo’s death (though I’ve never been really comfortable with pluggo).

To conclude this long post, I used to say : “what’s good about max, is that it’s only limited by your imagination”, I guess I’ll have to had some “but”s to that adage.

The King is dead, Long live the King !

My 2 cents

Leo

#157672
May 16, 2009 at 3:48pm
f.e wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 11:47

- death of pluggo and worse, a love affair with the most commercially used software which is the absolute opposite of what base users would use as a software for composing. If you want to do electro-disco-looping, you’ll use Live of course, but max users are max users because they do something else than that and that’s why they’ve learned this tool. I don’t mean one is better than the other, don’t start to troll me here, i just say they’re just VERY different.

f.e

from what you are saying above pluggo hosts like
protools, nuendo, tracktion, fruity loops or rax
would be a better tools for IDM artists and
creative composers than ableton live is.

as much as i hate LIVE and the the idea of no
pluggo in my next steinberg workstation in 2015,
i have to disagree a bit with this idea.

i also do not understand why many of us are
using ableton as one of their main tools, but
it is probably the platform with the most
pluggo users.

#157673
May 16, 2009 at 7:21pm
RabidRaja wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 01:54
but i have heard some people push the limits of it beyond just the mundane live-sequencing-of-clips/live-sequencing-of-effects so I suppose it’s possible if you’re willing to think outside the box that it puts itself in… mostly, though it does have this way of… um… ‘quantizing’ people’s personalities within this weird grid-o’-trendiness to the point where many ‘Live’ performers are merely trying to find the right setup of cookie-cutter functions for them to fit within a particular scene or style…

I have to agree with Raj on this point. I have used Live off and
on for years and was always unimpressed with it as a composing
environment. The session view forces you to think of music as
a sequence of repeating scenes. Maybe that is great for DJs and
producers, but it is really not the way I think of music when I
compose.

For me music is a constantly evolving flow that does not
repeat, each moment is unique, and builds on the perception
of the last moment, moving towards the anticipation of the next.
The representation of that is just as unique to each piece that
I compose. That is why I love Max so much, it allows me to build
a composition environment around the way I think and feel music
should be made. I am free to organize that any way I want!
Not shoe horn my thoughts into an inflexible quantized matrix.

Don’t get me wrong it is a great tool for performing, but Live’s
Arrangement view has a long ways to go. It really does not even
come close to the level of functionality I am used to with Sonar.

Who knows, perhaps there is a lot to Live and M4L that I have
yet to discover. I guess we will see how this turns out…

#157674
May 16, 2009 at 7:48pm

One of the things I’m really starting to dig about MFL’s API access to Live is the way I can re-order events in the arrangement view non-linearly, and keep it in time if I want, or not.

Being able to relocate host transport from a plug-in is definitely one of those things you don’t normally get to do, and I think it’s an awesome tool to have.

-A

#157675
May 16, 2009 at 7:55pm

you can do that with rewire…

#157676
May 16, 2009 at 8:00pm

Yeah sure you can. You can do it with MIDI in some hosts too. But not as reliably.

Besides, rewire lacks bi-directional audio.

-A

#157677
May 16, 2009 at 8:10pm
Andrew Pask wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 14:00
Besides, rewire lacks bi-directional audio.

-A

As a side note, I would love to know who’s idea that was.

#157678
May 16, 2009 at 8:30pm

yes M4L, nice indeed but…

for YEARS now my workflow (and investment) was around max, radial, pluggo and recently mode. NOW you have break that ditching radial away (which is not a big deal until the next apple os upgrade probably) both pluggo and mode (which i can recently run only within radial without much headache). but the last nail was the ditchin pluggo dev out of max, since THAT was the true beauty for me. do some process in max, make it pluggo, run it in radial, record live. not to mention that i bought some commercial libraries too. with this policy my future (and my investment) with c74 sux.

so, my route is either,

to invest in Ableton and M4L (no matter how generous the discount wil be it will be alot), reinvent my workflow (although the mixer in Live vs matrix in radial are like Ba ba black sheep vs Bitches Brew) and prepare as much as i can in clips (although i NEVER prepared anything for radial)

or

ditch max as well (never upgraded to 5 because the lack of pluggo
dev tools and say bye to c74 and buy couple of macs before Apple shows us the new cat (if there is any cat left)
and they used to called me the c74 mannequin ±.

± mannequin |ˈmanikən|
noun
a dummy used to display clothes in a store window.
• chiefly historical a young woman or man employed to show clothes to customers.

#157679
May 16, 2009 at 8:36pm

seriously. If rewire could go both ways, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

#157680
May 16, 2009 at 8:38pm
Nick Inhofe wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 14:36
seriously. If rewire could go both ways, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

yeah, wish it did.

#157681
May 17, 2009 at 12:04am

whoa i can´t stop posting to these pluggo threads.

the sound quality of ableton live?

the sound quality???

considered that INSIDE your pluggo plug-ins
you only have 24 bits of precision when you
sum 2 signals, the sound quality of the host
(nuendo vs live?) is really the last thing
you should worry about.

rant finished, back to normal.

-110

#157682
May 17, 2009 at 6:20am
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 10:39
I am now considering switching a whole university toward pd and sc, which means 60+ licenses, plus 80 students per year not being part of what is a lovely community.

It reminds me how railway companies cut small inefficient tracks, and suddenly realize they where not inefficient at all, they kept the big efficient ones running…

60+ licenses + 80 potential new customers per year? That would make some money to keep development running, and I bet you are not the only one…

Stefan

#157683

ca4
May 17, 2009 at 6:39am

24-bits is not a problem, it gives you more dynamic range than surrounding analog electronics like your monitoring system. it is enough to sum 2 signals (but not for summing in a big mixer). I wrote my own summing external for Max/MSP when I played with additive synthesis.

what determines the sound quality in a DAW is gain management (especially in connection with mix/submix summing), how/when they apply dither in their internal stages and the quality of the EQ algorithms (and other processing).

best is to buy high quality eq/compressor plugins (like sonnox), you’d be surprised of the things happening in the bundled stuff. Logic (which otherwise sounds very good) has bad EQ with strange ringing sideeffect. unfortunately good plugins will cost you as much as the DAW.

personally I still use my analog mixer. if nothing else simply because I get good results faster. but you need good sounding (which means expensive) converters. This also means I can use analog EQ:s and compressors of good quality.

being aware of sound quality will give you a wider palette to paint with. from soft and sweet to high impact wall of sound.

Roman Thilenius wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 18:04
whoa i can´t stop posting to these pluggo threads.

the sound quality of ableton live?

the sound quality???

considered that INSIDE your pluggo plug-ins
you only have 24 bits of precision when you
sum 2 signals, the sound quality of the host
(nuendo vs live?) is really the last thing
you should worry about.

rant finished, back to normal.

-110

#157684
May 17, 2009 at 8:37am
Roman Thilenius wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 01:04
considered that INSIDE your pluggo plug-ins
you only have 24 bits of precision when you
sum 2 signals, the sound quality of the host
(nuendo vs live?) is really the last thing
you should worry about.

It is not because I use bitmunging on one track that I want my reverb tail to be 4 bit…

Wink

pa

#157685
May 17, 2009 at 8:03pm
f.e wrote on Sat, 16 May 2009 03:47
a love affair with the most commercially used software which is the absolute opposite of what base users would use as a software for composing. If you want to do electro-disco-looping, you’ll use Live of course, but max users are max users because they do something else than that and that’s why they’ve learned this tool.

Hmmm…note to self- be more polite. Ok.

That is absolute rubbish. Hey, news flash – the “warp” “loop” buttons do not have to be activated in Live!

Sorry guys I just find all this Live bashing kind of silly. But hey, if it’s not your thing then that’s cool. I know many people who use Live (including myself) who do not do looping disco stuff. It really is more useful and diverse than many on this thread are giving it credit for.

#157686
May 17, 2009 at 9:54pm

Just think of it as a big shiny timeline object.

#157687
May 17, 2009 at 9:59pm
Gregory Taylor wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 15:54
Just think of it as a big shiny timeline object.

Ha ha – yes, good idea!!

#157688
May 17, 2009 at 10:45pm
Quote:
Just think of it as a big shiny timeline object.

It’s only available in Max 6 Smile

#157689
May 17, 2009 at 11:18pm
stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 07:29
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let’s just hope live goes belly up, so they’ll have to work with a proper DAW Wink

pa

This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a “proper DAW” to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a “live sequencing instrument” (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the “performance practice” side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary…

Words of wisdom stringtapper – I agree!

#157690
May 18, 2009 at 12:30am

Cycling74, thank you for being honest about your future.

Mr. Cheney, on the other hand, has recently reversed his position that release of internal memos would be bad for national security. Instead he wants them made public so he can publish them in his memoirs. I also remember him saying he didn’t think what he endorsed being done to POWs wasn’t much worse than what he did for his job, standing at his desk for so many hours and so on. So I hope he decided to prove it and let himself be subjected to the same things that were done in Guatanamo so we could all admire him for demonstrating he meant what he said.

#157691
May 18, 2009 at 12:31am
rhizomeman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 17:18
stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 07:29
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let’s just hope live goes belly up, so they’ll have to work with a proper DAW Wink

pa

This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a “proper DAW” to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a “live sequencing instrument” (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the “performance practice” side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary…

Words of wisdom stringtapper – I agree!

Any attempt at characterizing uses for max will always create rule breakers out weighing those who abide.

One beauty of max is that cycling made an effort to keep it as transient, universal, and generic as possible.

“Anthing in, Anything out, now” < --- dead.

#157692
May 18, 2009 at 12:50am
Matthew Aidekman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 19:31
rhizomeman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 17:18
stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 07:29
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let’s just hope live goes belly up, so they’ll have to work with a proper DAW Wink

pa

This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a “proper DAW” to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a “live sequencing instrument” (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the “performance practice” side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary…

Words of wisdom stringtapper – I agree!

Any attempt at characterizing uses for max will always create rule breakers out weighing those who abide.

One beauty of max is that cycling made an effort to keep it as transient, universal, and generic as possible.

“Anthing in, Anything out, now” < --- dead.

May 18, 2009 at 12:56am
stringtapper wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 18:50
Matthew Aidekman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 19:31
rhizomeman wrote on Sun, 17 May 2009 17:18
stringtapper wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 07:29
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Fri, 15 May 2009 02:51
Let’s just hope live goes belly up, so they’ll have to work with a proper DAW Wink

pa

This is why I think Live is the perfect host for Max, because it was never envisioned as a “proper DAW” to begin with. Rather it was conceived as a “live sequencing instrument” (the early version packaging had this phrase) so to me it is the most musical pairing they could have made as it is more conceptually in line with the “performance practice” side of Max. Of course many people use Max for different things, so opinions will vary…

Words of wisdom stringtapper – I agree!

Any attempt at characterizing uses for max will always create rule breakers out weighing those who abide.

One beauty of max is that cycling made an effort to keep it as transient, universal, and generic as possible.

“Anthing in, Anything out, now” < --- dead.

May 18, 2009 at 1:07am

Yes, we all can agree that the uses for max are diverse.

#157695
May 18, 2009 at 1:17am

But, many uses for Live as well…

#157696
May 18, 2009 at 7:48am

It makes me seriously sad. I was happy today and just discovered this. This lost means a lot to me.

With this decision, you are not only destructing pluggo, but with it, many potential music and ideas and collaborations.
Pluggo was so great to use, even with the bugs !

From the bottom of my heart : Thank you very much.

#157697
May 18, 2009 at 9:39am

Hey, let’s put it in perspective. This last week, the politicians said they knew the CIA to lying to the public and said it was ok as long as they don’t lie to congress. Meanwhile Nancy Pelosi claims the CIA lied to her about waterboarding. Compared to torture, it’s all good.

I’m just glad CYcling74 is still in business after what the Republicans did the economy in the last eight years.

#157698
May 18, 2009 at 4:55pm

Hey Ernest,

Let me guess – you voted for McCain!!

#157699
May 18, 2009 at 7:51pm

just tried wormhole w protools… bad news. dropouts and latency city.

is there something in the digidesign contract that makes developers unable to write plugins which communicate with the outside world?

I just want to use protools, but be able to leave it!

evil… THEY’RE EVIL!
-matt

#157700
May 18, 2009 at 9:25pm

*
bd

#157701
May 18, 2009 at 9:49pm

Well I was planning to develop some VST plugins, and I had already been told I would have to use MAX/MSP 4 or wait for Pluggo to be upgraded. Now it has, but I can’t develop VST plugins except for Abtleton Live, and I am not really much of a looper type.

So meanwhile I am starting a letter writing campaign to defend the constitution. If we expect good leadership, we have to defend the constitutional rights of those who lead us, in fact even more than anybody else’s, or how can we expect good leadership? And public officials are walked into meetings where they are told they cannot record or take notes of what happens. All other aspects of public officials are held in the limelight–their income, even their sex lives–and it should be illegal for any government agency to command clandestine actions from a public official. Public officials often need to defend their actions from records of past events, and forbidding them to keep such records violates their rights as citizens. If the CIA is permitted to command what public officials do in secret meetings, then how can we claim to be a free nation? Not even those we elect to rule us are able to openly share facts, and instead we are reduced to nothing more than petty gossip mongering about whether we believe one person or another. It makes mockery of this country’s ideals when even those elected to defend our constitutional rights cannot defend their own.

#157702
May 18, 2009 at 10:14pm

Ernest,

Shit man, and I thought my posts were off topic! Look Ernest, while I appreciate your political angst this is not the proper forum for your rants. We are all here to praise Pluggo and bash Live as just a silly looper – oops the misinformation/propaganda got to me too – damn!

Best,

rhizomeman

#157703
May 18, 2009 at 10:21pm

Well, I had been commissioned to write some blogs on Max/msp in exchange for an educational discount. Now with the change in product direction I no longer can implement my original ideas in Max/MSP, and rather than get annoyed at Cycling ’74, which is just trying to make a living in a dismal economic climate, I took out my angst on the loss of national pride we have all experienced due to this country’s abysmal record of lies, deception, and red herrings to stop us from thinking how much private money Bush/Cheney extracted for themselves out of the Iraq war. I guess it’s rubbed off on me and I started getting red herringed myself.

#157704
May 18, 2009 at 10:28pm

to some extent he is not wrong pointing out that
there are bigger problems than pluggo. (if that is
what he wanted to tell us.)

no pluggo really makes me sad, but i currently invest
more time into the defency of the almost-complete
installation of internet censorship – the end of
democracy – in germany.

THIS is a REAL problem.

we should eventually rethink our priority list from
time to time.

-110@piratenpartei

#157705
May 18, 2009 at 11:06pm

That being said, I am sad for the musicians who hoped for other thigns from pluggo. But California’s unemployment is reaching 12% I think, and while Texas is considering secession, California is stumped with problems like the highest unemployment ever, massive debts, highest foreclsures in the nation, and the sad rumor that President Bush only raised $300 million for his library last month, thus indicating how bad off things really are.

#157706
May 18, 2009 at 11:44pm

Ernest, please stop. This isn’t the place for a political discussion. Thanks.

#157707
May 19, 2009 at 12:41am

ok. I too am very disappointed with the decision. I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn’t get in the looping spirit of things. I have a tiny but very loyal user base for my instruments, and they all asked for standalone VST instruments that work on both PCs and Macs and don’t require a third party tool. I’m not quite sure to do for them any more. It’s turned into a quandary, as there appears to be no dedicated environment for developing cross-platform musical instruments any more.

#157708
May 19, 2009 at 1:28am
Ernest wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41
I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn’t get in the looping spirit of things.

Then turn off the “warp” and “loop” buttons or work in the arrangement view – it ain’t just for loopn’ kiddo!

#157709
May 19, 2009 at 6:20am

i use live strictly as a sequencer. recording from max/reason into live and arrange/master the audio. no loops necessary.while other applications might be better for this, i like live because it is relatively light and stable for a DAW, supports AU/VSTs, makes sample organization really easy, is simple to navigate through, is pretty cheap for students with Live LE ($239), makes chopping/processing/rerecording a breeze.

but, obviously, i still support pluggo over M4L. even being a live user, i don’t think it’s right for C74 to choose another program’s user base over its own. but C74 is made of good people so i am sure this decision came after much deliberation and very challenging programming obstacles.

#157710
May 19, 2009 at 4:04pm

comfortable, you bring up good point about stability. Live is one of the most stable pieces of software I have ever used and the only thing I use when performing live. It has never crashed during a show – never. Max/msp 4 unfortunately has – in fact during a recent electronic music festival I witnessed it crashing on every performance that used it. Max 5 is MUCH more stable and I assume M4L will be very stable as well. This stability is something to look forward to.

#157711
May 19, 2009 at 4:45pm

Max 4 never ever jamais jamás de los jamases crashed while i was performing…

It crashed before the performance, while i was building my patches, most probably because of my own erros, but never crashed onece the patch was good.

f.e

#157712
May 19, 2009 at 9:57pm
Ernest wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41
I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn’t get in the looping spirit of things.

Along with the occasionally popular “I haven’t looked at Live since Version 2 but I’m sure it’s not a ‘serious’ tool,” this particular meme always surprises me coming from the mouths of otherwise clever people. I don’t think I’ve *ever* used Live for loops unless I was doing some kind of quickie trade show thing at NAMM. I am strictly a timeline user, and it works quite nicely for that.

#157714
May 20, 2009 at 2:15am
Gregory Taylor wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 15:57
Ernest wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41
I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn’t get in the looping spirit of things.

Along with the occasionally popular “I haven’t looked at Live since Version 2 but I’m sure it’s not a ‘serious’ tool,” this particular meme always surprises me coming from the mouths of otherwise clever people. I don’t think I’ve *ever* used Live for loops unless I was doing some kind of quickie trade show thing at NAMM. I am strictly a timeline user, and it works quite nicely for that.

Gregory, as a newcomer to ableton who is just following Cycling’s lead and taking some private in-person tutorials, I disagree that you should be surprised. As to the “true nature” of live, I can’t speak to that yet but it was presented as a “chunk arranger.” Again the tutorial given to me, gave me the idea that doing something like selecting k,s,h,t1,t2,t3,ohl,ohr and doing in depth editing seems… less then easy.

If you think that this sort of thing is going unseen, I would suggest part of your business plan to be getting the word out somehow. This is because live has a rep. And as far as I can tell, I see no media talking about the ability of a Live guy to whiz around the app like one those protools guys with blurry hands keeping track of 96 track sessions. (me)

EDIT: just to add, this is coming from a guy desperate to leave protools almost soley because of it’s inability to play nice with apps like max.

#157715
May 20, 2009 at 3:27am

Well. I couldn’t really get into using it for timeline recording either, but it may not be LE’s fault. I started on Cakewalk 1.0 and I got accustomed to particular ways of doing things. It may just be that I’m getting too old to change to new software very frequently.

#157716
May 20, 2009 at 8:02am

Dear Gregory and others

You know what I do, and I know what you do, so high props first, due respect and everything (Québécois hugs and West coast accolades as well)

Wink

Gregory Taylor wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 22:57
I am strictly a timeline user, and it works quite nicely for that.

Does it mean that you keep the audio in MSP? Live is your timeline? I’ve heard catastrophic mixes out of Live, loosing much of the width and subtly. I am not an audio quality freak, but I really like the bounce to sound like the actual playback… hence me going away from Logic to Nuendo and now back to Digital Performer 6, but using PT hardware when I can…

The audio result sounds like the same difference between 16 and 24 bit versions of the same mix…

pa

#157717
May 20, 2009 at 8:36am
Quote:
I’ve heard catastrophic mixes out of Live, loosing much of the width and subtly. I am not an audio quality freak, but I really like the bounce to sound like the actual playback… hence me going away from Logic to Nuendo and now back to Digital Performer 6, but using PT hardware when I can…

Same to me. This is a thing i still don’t understand. How could it be so bad in certain softwares in the 21th century ? I don’t know much about Live, but i know for sure things like FL Studio should only be used as step sequencers, the audio output is terrible…

f.e

#157718
May 20, 2009 at 10:30am
rhizomeman wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 19:28
Ernest wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 18:41
I installed Ableton LE but I just couldn’t get in the looping spirit of things.

Then turn off the “warp” and “loop” buttons or work in the arrangement view – it ain’t just for loopn’ kiddo!

Sure, but you understand people are pissed, right?

Pluggo was probably discontinued the moment cycling shaked hands with Gerhard Behles some 3 years ago…

Hopefully this result in Live developing into a proper DAW. There is a lot of potential that is not in conflict with als. backwards compability.

My guess is that after Live ten they change it into Ableton Studio or something ass. (ableton studio session Smile )

Cheers

#157719
May 20, 2009 at 3:22pm

Thanks for the kind words. Mr. T.

I’m sure that this isn’t your issue at all, but the last time I ran across this, the person in question was really annoyed, but
they were’t routing their output to their interface and capturing the audio somewhere else and a/bing *that* – they had warping turned on, so (this was my guess, anyway) Live was rendering stuff perfectly well, but introducing all kinds of warp-related schmoo during the playback through Live itself. Could that be the issue with some of what you’ve heard?

I’m sure my ears are not nearly as golden as yours. Too many hours in the garage with everything set to 11.

#157720
May 20, 2009 at 3:24pm

I have heard people rag on Live’s mixdown audio quality, but I have never noticed that. Maybe I need to mix down close to 100 tracks or something like that. I did a blind mixdown test when I first started using it compared to DP. Couldn’t tell the difference.

If you are testing audio quality it’s important to have someone else play back the files without you knowing which is which. Otherwise, you will be biased. I’ve heard differences in audio quality when my plugin “bypass” was pressed – I felt really stupid:(

#157721
May 20, 2009 at 5:12pm
rhizomeman wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 09:24
I have heard people rag on Live’s mixdown audio quality, but I have never noticed that. Maybe I need to mix down close to 100 tracks or something like that. I did a blind mixdown test when I first started using it compared to DP. Couldn’t tell the difference.

If you are testing audio quality it’s important to have someone else play back the files without you knowing which is which. Otherwise, you will be biased. I’ve heard differences in audio quality when my plugin “bypass” was pressed – I felt really stupid:(

happened to the best of us.

#157722
May 20, 2009 at 8:09pm

In regards to Ableton’s sound quality, i did a test a little bit ago where I took a loop from Reason, exported it, then rewired Reason into Live and exported the same loop. In Matlab, I then checked to make sure they were the same number of samples (which they were) and subtracted one from the other. The resulting sound was precisely the difference between the summing engines of Reason and Ableton. It is an interesting listen, and I’ll post it once I get back home (at work currently). You can tell though that the difference is in some of the higher frequencies. In general, Ableton sounds brighter than Reason (or, in derogative terms, “tinny”), which means greater clarity but less warmth. You can of course counter this with plug ins/EQs in the master out. The difference is minute and subtle, however. If you really want to improve your sound quality, send your digital audio into analog tape then rerecord it. Smoothes everything out.

#157723
May 20, 2009 at 8:12pm
rhizomeman wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 09:24
I have heard people rag on Live’s mixdown audio quality, but I have never noticed that. (

before Live 5 (i think) release, the audio engine was not as good in AbletonLive: in that release, they went to having all internal audio as double precision float: 32 bit , as good as we generally get in audio. They also added full plugin delay compensation (for the plugs that report it). I really can’t complain about the basic sound in Live compared to my Digital Performer DAW: Careful use (and lack of use) of the warp stuff
further cleaned up the mix image, and I no longer accept that Live’s mixes sound inferior to anyone elses.

Just my tuppence,
cb aka j2k

#157724
May 20, 2009 at 8:32pm

Well that’s good to hear. I always thought Cubase SX’s mixer sounded muddy. Some have said the same thing, and I assume it is because the mixing algorithm is designed for lower CPU load when EQ and other such plugins are enabled.

#157725
May 20, 2009 at 9:06pm

the discussion is getting interesting now.

ernest, live is all double-float? did you hear that from
a friend who is into loops?
Smile
and what would be the advance of doubleprecision signal
paths, especially when using VST, pluggo or max4live?

that reason has less dither noise than live is not
a surprise though, as reason does not transport any high
frequencies anyway. my first impression of it was that
it must be all mp3 or DTS.

btw, did you all know that you can make your host
soud better by using impulse responses of a monster
cable on all busses?

-110

#157726
May 20, 2009 at 9:20pm
Roman Thilenius wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 23:06
the discussion is getting interesting now.

ernest, live is all double-float? did you hear that from
a friend who is into loops?
Smile
and what would be the advance of doubleprecision signal
paths, especially when using VST, pluggo or max4live?

that reason has less dither noise than live is not
a surprise though, as reason does not transport any high
frequencies anyway. my first impression of it was that
it must be all mp3 or DTS.

btw, did you all know that you can make your host
soud better by using impulse responses of a monster
cable on all busses?

-110

rofl

and the cynic of the year prize goes to…

#157727
May 20, 2009 at 11:09pm

I’ll put it this way – and this is coming from a neurotic audiophile, music obsessed maniac. I never heard a piece of music mixed down in Live and thought, “Wow that is a cool piece of music but shit, it was ruined by a lousy mixdown which I can perceive and therefore I cannot listen to or enjoy that really great piece!”

#157728
May 20, 2009 at 11:49pm

Well, I don’t think that’s pertinent actually. If a musician is trying to make a sound but can’t because the software distorts it, then it is something the musician doesn’t particularly like.

We can still enjoy whatever results the musician manages to create, but that doesn’t have any bearing on the musician’s experience.

#157729
May 21, 2009 at 12:30am

I don’t know anything about how Live mixes music. With regard to mixdown, I do know that I was been disappointed subjectively with mixdown in Cubase SX1. So I reverted to Cubsase VST32 v5.0 which is an amazing package considering its time.

Technically, data type is not the only pertinent factor in mixdown. Other factors include sample-rate changing algorithms, anti-aliasing techniques, type conversion, and back-end integration of audio processing.

#157730
May 21, 2009 at 2:41am

Well it is true that Live has its own sound – clear and clean, in fact, nothing like Reason hopefully but in my opinion not as transparent as Pro Tools or Logic for instance.

Actually I’ve been writing consistent articles about it every year since version 2 in French magazines, am using it live to play stuff ranging from abstract electroacoustic music or acoustic guitar and vocals to death metal/electronica/breakcore on stage, and have read the 567 pages of its documentation once again when version 8 came out. So believe me I have been using it a lot and think I do know every small function of it.

Then you certainly don’t have to use Live for its ability to play with loops, which I NEVER do. Most of my tracks are empty with complex effects and synths prepared so that I can make my own music in real time, with mikes and stuff. I have nothing against loops, but even without that none of my other DAWS can let me do what I do with Live. It sure is nothing like Max though, and it cannot replace Pro Tools in my opinion either. It is in between many things, and can do wonders if you learn how to use it for real – not talking about playing with 3 loops and changing the tempo once in a while, which is an ability they use to sell the product for sure.

Of course there are things I don’t like with Live, the main one being that it sort of pushes musicians to make music in a certain way. I mean it has its own flow and might make you do things you wouldn’t do on a regular DAW, probably just because you can work on it without ever stopping the sound. Then I would never do a mastering in Live, miss some consistent fades and crossfades (although there are some since Live Cool, etc. Therefore I still use Pro Tools for everything that is not… live. And Max/MSP, of course.

About the sound by the way, since Live 7 Ableton uses double precision 64 bits summing at every mixing point where signals are mixed, although internal treatments are still in 32 bit float. Might be just better than Max MSP on that point, although I still think Live has a specific sound. Anyway instead of guessing just get the documentation and read the audio information part around page 520… lots of things to learn there.

To end this long post I am extremely sorry about Pluggo though, as I was one of those people waiting for it to work with Max 5. I am quite excited about Max for Live, which I’m sure will be a great improvement for many musicians but still… That’s only good if you think Live is the only DAW you’ll ever need, which is still not my case.

#157731

ca4
May 21, 2009 at 5:06pm

Even with 64-bit floating point summing you’ll need to correctly dither when you go back to the 32-bit databus (which in reality is 24-bits precision).

All to many software packages rely on floating point rounding errors to mask the lack of dithering. They are not the same. Rounding errors is signal-dependent (i.e. distortion) and dithering is pure random (i.e. noise).

Live 8 is very-very overpriced and I especially dont like the sound of Max/MSP stacked on top of Live. Both are a bit on the harsh side.

Try Max/MSP via analog tape (I have a big and very heavy Telefunken M15 mastering deck) – sounds really great! But my favourite is to just run it through some apogee pro-converters, neve summing, tube EQ and various iron (transformers) as this keeps the fast digital sound but takes out the thin laptoppiness – gives a more mature sound that I like.

#157732
May 21, 2009 at 5:15pm

another thing is that reason always sounded cheap to me.

Have you compared with ProTool HW? With Digital Performer or Nuendo?

pa

#157733
May 21, 2009 at 5:58pm

yes. after I’ve made my super aliased fm oscillators, ripped the spectrum apart with an fft transform and re-arranged everything with a non-windowed sample slicer, I always run everything to $10k analog summing mixer to preserve its quality! I’ll post a pic on gearslutz in a minute.

:0

#157734
May 21, 2009 at 6:37pm

Mr T to Mr T – amps at 11 are good! I am comparing bounces to mix, it was a couple of years ago so it might have improved in Live.

To rhizomeman and others, I am not an audiophile. I just want the bounce to sound as near as possible my sounddesign/mix I have tweeked for hours… makes sense, sounds basic, yet Pro-Tools is the only thing that is 100% true.

Logic has come a long way from 6 (unusable) to 7 (almost ok) to 8 (good as long as you don’t use the convolution reverb.

Nuendo is not bad. DP is better now, but I have not done this testing systematically for a long time, so maybe I need to compare the newest Live as well…

#157735
May 21, 2009 at 6:54pm

I never really thought about the fact that so many people blame summing for some poor mix aesthetics and here I am in MSP potentially summing thousands of signals. I wonder what the quality of the wordclocking is etc etc. Gearslutz meets max. please no!

All that being said, if this was the worst thing about the death of pluggo, I don’t think I’d care very much.

#157736
May 21, 2009 at 7:21pm
Roman Thilenius wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 23:06
btw, did you all know that you can make your host
soud better by using impulse responses of a monster
cable on all busses?

Yes, absolutely, but you need to place an analog picture of the cable on each track to make it really shine. These high sizzles sounds are without comparison….

Stefan

#157737
May 21, 2009 at 7:34pm
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 19:15
Have you compared with ProTool HW? With Digital Performer or Nuendo?

I doubt that anybody in the world has ever done such a test. Think about what it would require, someone who is completely familiar with all these tools, and with the time to redo the whole mix several times.

For each tool there are different strategies to get the best result. If you just import other sessions, you haven’t really compared them…

I use the tool I am familiar with, I know best how to get the results I want to achieve. If I am forced to use a different tool, I’ll probably be able to get some results as well, but if I don’t know it by heart, I feel uncomfortable, this alone does more to the sound than any technology nowadays could do…

By principle you won’t be able to ever do a double blind test…

Stefan

#157738
May 21, 2009 at 8:17pm

I totally second that.

#157739
May 21, 2009 at 8:39pm
stefantiedje wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 21:34
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 19:15
Have you compared with ProTool HW? With Digital Performer or Nuendo?

I doubt that anybody in the world has ever done such a test. Think about what it would require, someone who is completely familiar with all these tools, and with the time to redo the whole mix several times.

For each tool there are different strategies to get the best result. If you just import other sessions, you haven’t really compared them…
Stefan

i dont think there are “strategies” to make
a summing test.
you read in 100 short samples on 100 tracks
and press export. that takes a few minutes.
then you compare the results digitally and
if there is a difference, you compare them
in a superb listening enviroment such as
a commercial mastering studio house.

i think we all know that as soon as you multiply
3 signals of 24 bit precision there are errors which
could be reduced when the signal precision is raised
before summing, even if you cut the extra bits
off again undithered at the end.

if that makes a big difference in most situations
is another question.

for now you should be on the safe side by not
using Reason. most recording studios which are
recording singers and guitarists dont use reason. Smile

5 more posts and this thread is officially hijacked.

#157740
May 21, 2009 at 8:58pm

Mix summing differences in DAWs has been discussed to death over at gearslutz.com. Tests that people have done are called “null” tests where one of the mixes is inverted and when combined with the second should null if they are identical. I believe the results were that all major DAWs, Pro Tools, DP, Logic, Sonar, Cubase, etc. if not using automation and without plugins were all identical or close enough. However, it was the way the different DAWs interacted with automation and plugins that made bigger differences. I’m not sure about the science of all this but do a search at gearslutz for the posts – lots of heated argument, foul language, and name calling – typical gearslutz thread!

-rhizomeman

#157741
May 21, 2009 at 9:00pm
Roman Thilenius wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 21:39
5 more posts and this thread is officially hijacked.

here is one

Wink

Seriously, I was more thinking of doing some discriminating bounces in the same studio on different DAWs. I might have a day to spare in thenext weeks (relativel speaking) so I might do it. I have Nuendo, PT HD, DP, Logic in that studio. I just miss live…

a kind o text of having subtle reverb tail (altiverb, same setting) on soft delay-pan clicks (the kind of stuff easy to do with generic-effect, boohoohoo pluggo is dead, back on the thread, boohoohoo).

any other idea for a relevant test?

pa

#157742
May 21, 2009 at 9:21pm
tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 22:00
any other idea for a relevant test?

note to self: gearslutz is a very strange place…

I did not know about this place, and please do not think I am trying to be that a.retentive…

I just want the bloody bounce to sound the same!

pa

#157743
May 21, 2009 at 11:58pm
tremblap@gmail.com wrote
Seriously, I was more thinking of doing some discriminating bounces in the same studio on different DAWs. I might have a day to spare in thenext weeks (relativel speaking) so I might do it. I have Nuendo, PT HD, DP, Logic in that studio. I just miss live…

any other idea for a relevant test?
pa

what could be funny and new (summing tests with rock
tracks are not new) would be a summing test with samples
of known content.

you could, for example, make a short audiofile of the
following 10 samples:

0.1
0.2
0.3
0.4
0.5
0.6
0.7
0.8
0.9
1.0

or to be exact: the REAL representations of those
numbers in our 24 bit system. too lazy to find them now.

now we could easily check the summing result of those
with a good calculator program.

summing 10 channels of 0.100003 should give something
like 0.00000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000542145703,
and of course, we all know that we wont see this after
summing it in protools.

probably not even in matlab.

this way we even might find out that my statement from 2 posts above could be partially wrong in the one or other enviroment.

other ideas for your test would be that you of course
will not use any dithering or whatever could influence
your audio.
(i dont need to tell you, but there are many people
reading this)

one more thing to consider. it coculd of course be, that
a program which changes the audio is the one which sounds
better. i believe it will be not more than 4-5 years now
when the first DAW will have some kind of analog mixer
simulation (like a very little bit of soft saturation) in
every mixer channel.

p.s.

back in the days i have experimented a lot with ways
of summing. it was a very unscientistic experiment, you
might call it “playing around”

i was using [hr.*] to convert the streams to double
float, then used another [hr.*] to change the volume,
and then sum serial, or with different schemes of
parallel setups or pyramids of mixers.
the funny thing is, it makes absolutely no sense when
the gain regulation is on “1.” – or on any other value
which fits perfectly into a 24 bit precision system.
i trashed the experiment and went back to summing in
nuendo 1.6. (the best we had at that time.)

-110

#157744
May 22, 2009 at 12:11am

oh one more thing.

one way of reducing “error noise” in a many many channel
recording can be when you put a lowpassfilter above
all tracks which do not need hf.

this is done best by putting tracks with no hf content
(even voice and guitar might be ok if you lower the
volume above 13 kHz, and an access virus pad anyway)
on a subgroup and bells, hihats and stuff like that on
another subgroup.

this rule is probably useless in a modern program,
but in max 4 or logic 4 it might make sense.

you might say that the I/O hardwarre does that anyway, but
this is not the same.
dont forget that you for example go from 24 to 16 bit and
from 16 bit to mp3 when your digital audio master is done!

IIO.

#157745
May 22, 2009 at 12:24am

That’s very intersting advice, thank you.

#157746
May 22, 2009 at 7:35am

Here’s a link to my comparison between Ableton’s and Reason’s summing engines:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~kkapla/reasonTest.zip

I used the process Roman described where the phase of one is inverted and then added to the other. Included is the matlab code, the reason file, the ableton file, and the result of their sums (with one’s phase inverted). The result is very strange – some synth sounds don’t change much at all. The music is a fragment of an old piece of mine written entirely in Reason. I then simply rewired Reason into Ableton and exported the same loop, no plugins or additional mastering was done.

#157747
May 22, 2009 at 9:00am

If you used anything with an LFO in it, the LFOs could be out of phase. thats a pretty frickin huge difference.. did you normalize it or something?

#157748
May 22, 2009 at 9:57am

Hi there,
Going back to Pluggo, would it be possible to have an open version of it?
If the company is not going to continue the development perhaps the community can do it.
Cheers,
Josue

#157749
May 22, 2009 at 2:52pm
josuemoreno1@hotmail. wrote on Fri, 22 May 2009 03:57
Hi there,
Going back to Pluggo, would it be possible to have an open version of it?
If the company is not going to continue the development perhaps the community can do it.
Cheers,
Josue

Since the pluggo shell includes max runtime, this would mean opensourcing max runtime. Any attempt to keep your pluggo’s working over the long haul will mean Cycling coding something new.
Open sourcing the all the plugins is something they just dont seem willing to do. The answer being that some of the plugins will be in max4live
Writing an object to host plugins in max5 so that developers can port from 4.6 to 5 and then republish as some closed source new plugin standard which allows you to host them in max is also off the table.

Basically your plugins are dead whenever your host is updated unless you use Live.

#157750
May 23, 2009 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Since the pluggo shell includes max runtime, this would mean opensourcing max runtime

only the “old” runtime 4.

#157751
May 23, 2009 at 6:38pm

I don’t have pluggo, but if it’s true it has the runtime source in it, I’d want to buy it right away if that’s true, because even the source for max 4.0 runtime would be very useful. It is far more likely that pluggo contains the binary distribution of the max runtime, not the source. The runtime could be redistributed anyway.

Open sourcing pluggo would only require including lib files for linking to the max runtime, and would not require distributing its source.

That being said I personally would not make a call to Cycling74 to release any of its source publicly, although I do hope it offers a way to support existing customers.

#157752
May 23, 2009 at 8:27pm

The sources are not included just a binary executable.

#157753
May 23, 2009 at 8:32pm

Well then, it would be possible for Cycling74 to export some public interfaces for linking to the executable. However there is little real incentive to Cycling74 for that. The people who would likely benefit the most from it are their competitors.

#157754
May 23, 2009 at 11:25pm

you could think that if it was really so easy to upgrade
pluggo runtime 4 / create one for 5 which will work
with VST 3.0, with future AU, with future RTAS, and with
future custom CPUs from apple, cycling74 would have made
it already.

if i would be able to do such things i would have already
asked them for the source.
but i dont have the knowlegde, expierience and patience
for that.
it would be more work than rewriting my pluggos me thinks ..

#157755
May 23, 2009 at 11:43pm

Well I really have to agree with you, Roman. Here are my six steps of software evolution:

1. A school project demos a new idea. It’s as buggy as the Pleiostene era, but it does something entirely new!

2. It appears at tradeshows in glossy brochures as a pending revolutionary advance. People are willing to pay $500 if it doesn’t crash more than once an hour.

3. Someone starts to sell mostly the same thing for $50. People think it must be important because other people paid $500 for it already, and sales boom. Some then buy the $500 version because they want the best possible software. Sales blossom for both companies. A new golden age starts.

4. People demand the $500 software do everything that was promised because the $50 software is getting better. The effort of making all the features in the $500 software work properly drives away the original talent and the company wavers near bankruptcy with the expense. The $50 alternative was priced too low and goes out of business. Meanwhile, free software emerges does the same thing for free without crashing any more. The golden age nears an end.

5. New software platforms make it impossible to run any of the old software at all. All vendors say customers must move to the new platform. regardless it has any real advantage, because they need more money. Pay $500 again so the new platform can run the old software.

6. Wait for something actually new to appear on the new platform and go back to step 1.

I think we are currently at step 5.

#157756
May 24, 2009 at 6:30am
Quote:
but i dont have the knowlegde, expierience and patience for that.

I was going to point to destroyfx.smartelectronix.com/, the website of someone who helped developing pluggo, but it appears that this website, as well as all the other smartelectronix pages, have stopped broadcasting just now. This has the smell of conspiracy all over it…

_
johan

#157757
May 24, 2009 at 7:29am
rhizomeman wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 22:58
Tests that people have done are called “null” tests where one of the mixes is inverted and when combined with the second should null if they are identical.

Listening to differences is not listening to music. If you run your mix through an analog tape to add your own taste of sound, and listen to the difference, I bet the difference sounds bad…

What I wanted to point out is, that music is not about technical differences. There is something called taste as well. If the technology is reasonably clean, which I have no doubt that this is the case for all the major professional products, technical reasons don’t apply for the difference in sound quality, its the personal approach of the musicians which use the tool that makes the difference. its the human factor for gods sake…

I would like that creative people (those who make the difference) stop arguing with phrases of sales people. They always want to make you believe its the tool that makes a difference…

If they would say “looking at this monster cable and those golden plugs just makes me feel comfortable and thats the secret how I get on my inspiration” would be much more the true story…

There is though a very special connection between a musician and her instrument. But for somebody else it might be a very different instrument…

Don’t hold back and tell the world YOU make the difference, and if they want you, they have to provide this and that gear…

Stefan

#157758
May 24, 2009 at 7:38am
jvkr wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 08:30
Quote:
but i dont have the knowlegde, expierience and patience for that.

I was going to point to destroyfx.smartelectronix.com/, the website of someone who helped developing pluggo, but it appears that this website, as well as all the other smartelectronix pages, have stopped broadcasting just now. This has the smell of conspiracy all over it…

_
johan

sophia would be the first who comes to mind, but in this
case we might end up with an AU-only update to pluggo. Wink

#157759
May 24, 2009 at 7:41am
ComfortableInClouds wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 22:09
You can tell though that the difference is in some of the higher frequencies. In general, Ableton sounds brighter than Reason (or, in derogative terms, “tinny”), which means greater clarity but less warmth.

The difference won’t tell you who makes the difference, also not which of the two is “brighter” or “warmer”. In theory that difference is simply the dither noise and rounding errors…
I’d not necessarily give it an attribute like warm…Wink

Stefan

#157760
May 24, 2009 at 7:50am
stefantiedje wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 09:29
rhizomeman wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 22:58
Tests that people have done are called “null” tests where one of the mixes is inverted and when combined with the second should null if they are identical.

Listening to differences is not listening to music.

What I wanted to point out is, that music is not about technical differences. There is something called taste as well. If the technology is reasonably clean,

the idea of substraction was only to get a proof
that there is a difference between different programs
summing methods, which some people tend to question.

a listening test isnt a test at all, starting with the
issue that the on emix might sound better on your speaker
and the other one on mine.

and when a producer has a bad taste, bad ears or bad
speakers, he/she might still prefer to have the best
sounding program.

we all know that the differences are quite minimal
and that analog audio mastering will be applied
anway later, but thats not a reason not to waste
some time for some geeky technology comparisons.

#157761
May 24, 2009 at 8:05am
ComfortableInClouds wrote on Fri, 22 May 2009 09:35
Here’s a link to my comparison between Ableton’s and Reason’s summing engines:

This doesn’t sound at all like a correct null mix. There is probably an offset between your two mixes, or left and right channels are swaped…

Stefan

#157762
May 24, 2009 at 8:25am

Checked it out more precisely, and it is neither offset nor swapped. But still, the difference you hear is what is missing in one of the mixes. This is not to be explained by technical differences between audio engines, it has another reason, hard to tell without doing the test yourself.

The difference is way too loud.
The peak values of the originals are at different spots. There is definitely some processing involved. This is not explainable by differences in dithering or calculation errors.

Before blaming one or the other, it is necessary to understand whats going on…

Stefan

#157763
May 24, 2009 at 8:41am

as I said previously, I don’t want the ‘best’ sounding thing, I just want that when I press ‘bounce’, I hear the same thing than when I mix.

My ears should help me to make it sound good whilst mixing, but not if the bounce is different!

pa

#157764
May 24, 2009 at 4:14pm
Roman Thilenius wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 01:50
stefantiedje wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 09:29
rhizomeman wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 22:58
Tests that people have done are called “null” tests where one of the mixes is inverted and when combined with the second should null if they are identical.

Listening to differences is not listening to music.

What I wanted to point out is, that music is not about technical differences. There is something called taste as well. If the technology is reasonably clean,

the idea of substraction was only to get a proof
that there is a difference between different programs
summing methods, which some people tend to question.

Thanks Roman.

Yes, Stefantiedja a “null” test (inverting a file and comparing with the original) tests for physical differences in the sonic signal. It does not measure perceivable differences through listening. As I mentioned, do a search on gearslutz.com for all the gruesome details on DAW sound.

“Listening” is a percept and subject to numerous factors. That is why if a person is seriously trying to discover sonic differences between DAWs it is better to set up a test (like a “null” test) that measures physical difference in the sound, not perceivable difference. Ableton’s manual has a good section on audio quality and what is physically happening to the signal within their software.

#157765
May 24, 2009 at 7:18pm
rhizomeman wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 10:14
Roman Thilenius wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 01:50
stefantiedje wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 09:29
rhizomeman wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 22:58
Tests that people have done are called “null” tests where one of the mixes is inverted and when combined with the second should null if they are identical.

Listening to differences is not listening to music.

What I wanted to point out is, that music is not about technical differences. There is something called taste as well. If the technology is reasonably clean,

the idea of substraction was only to get a proof
that there is a difference between different programs
summing methods, which some people tend to question.

Thanks Roman.

Yes, Stefantiedja a “null” test (inverting a file and comparing with the original) tests for physical differences in the sonic signal. It does not measure perceivable differences through listening. As I mentioned, do a search on gearslutz.com for all the gruesome details on DAW sound.

“Listening” is a percept and subject to numerous factors. That is why if a person is seriously trying to discover sonic differences between DAWs it is better to set up a test (like a “null” test) that measures physical difference in the sound, not perceivable difference. Ableton’s manual has a good section on audio quality and what is physically happening to the signal within their software.

your nuts. I don’t need a null test to know that protools has a more flat, grey sound while DP has a rounder puffier low end. Ableton live obviously has more of a two tone, 2D sound with out depth! I know for a FACT that the focusrite plugins have a more reddish tone than their digidesign counter parts.

And don’t get me started on how amazing the macbook ADC/DAC is.

#157766
May 24, 2009 at 7:35pm

Matthew,

I think you misunderstood my post. You and everyone else are free to perceive sound difference and audio quality in any way you want. That perception is dependent upon many factors and may change depending upon the person listening, the musical culture that person comes from, the environment, the playback equipment, etc…

Tests measuring the physical sonic signal are not debatable. The only thing you can debate is the WAY the test was conducted.

The field of Music Psychology and Music Perception have done much research into musical perception using 1000s of test subjects. Some standard conclusions have been discovered, but mostly using American and European subjects. For example, the way most humans group musical material by register – thus J.S. Bach’s solo violin and cello suites creating the percept of polyphony.

Again, if you hear/perceive specific audio differences that’s fine, but don’t confuse that with a physical sonic fact that is part of the sound signal and that everyone else will hear.

#157767
May 24, 2009 at 10:01pm

I believe Matthew was making what is called a ‘joke,’ Rhizomeman.

Focusrite plugins certainly are redder than most plugins…

#157768
May 24, 2009 at 10:51pm

Shit, I think you’re right. ha ha ha, wow that went over my head…Oh well.

#157769
May 24, 2009 at 11:30pm
#157770
May 28, 2009 at 11:03pm
Matthew Aidekman wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 13:18
And don’t get me started on how amazing the macbook ADC/DAC is.

…?… as a noise source?

just looking for enlightenment…
j2k

#157771
May 28, 2009 at 11:18pm
Matthew Aidekman wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 13:18

your nuts. I don’t need a null test to know that protools has a more flat, grey sound while DP has a rounder puffier low end. Ableton live obviously has more of a two tone, 2D sound with out depth! I know for a FACT that the focusrite plugins have a more reddish tone than their digidesign counter parts.

And don’t get me started on how amazing the macbook ADC/DAC is.

I’m confused at your choice of words. You give no example of what sound you were using as a test signal. Surely you wouldn’t want any kind of character added to the sound, it should be as true as the sound you have recorded or synthesized. You mention the flat ’2d’?? sound as if that is a bad thing? What do you even mean by 2D? Were you using surround sound? Mid/side decoding? I’m not even sure what your point is, and ‘reddish’ could mean anything to me, please explain… don’t get me wrong I’m not against using descriptive words, but at least give us a clue what you’re talking about…

Believe it or not I’m not a Live fan, I don’t use it, never have, and don’t want to switch DAWs, I’m happy with Cubase. I have no arguments about whether Live is good or bad, I simply don’t know, but I just wish people would think more before they started making throw-away comments about how certain software sounds ‘rumbly’ or ‘puffy’ or whatever artistic words you want to use without backing it up with some technical description or evidence.

#157772
May 28, 2009 at 11:23pm
electrogear wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:18
Matthew Aidekman wrote on Sun, 24 May 2009 13:18

your nuts. I don’t need a null test to know that protools has a more flat, grey sound while DP has a rounder puffier low end. Ableton live obviously has more of a two tone, 2D sound with out depth! I know for a FACT that the focusrite plugins have a more reddish tone than their digidesign counter parts.

And don’t get me started on how amazing the macbook ADC/DAC is.

I’m confused at your choice of words. You give no example of what sound you were using as a test signal. Surely you wouldn’t want any kind of character added to the sound, it should be as true as the sound you have recorded or synthesized. You mention the flat ’2d’?? sound as if that is a bad thing? What do you even mean by 2D? Were you using surround sound? Mid/side decoding? I’m not even sure what your point is, and ‘reddish’ could mean anything to me, please explain… don’t get me wrong I’m not against using descriptive words, but at least give us a clue what you’re talking about…

Believe it or not I’m not a Live fan, I don’t use it, never have, and don’t want to switch DAWs, I’m happy with Cubase. I have no arguments about whether Live is good or bad, I simply don’t know, but I just wish people would think more before they started making throw-away comments about how certain software sounds ‘rumbly’ or ‘puffy’ or whatever artistic words you want to use without backing it up with some technical description or evidence.

And it whooshes right over someone’s head all over again…

#157773
May 28, 2009 at 11:28pm
MuShoo wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:23

And it whooshes right over someone’s head all over again…

No I get it – you don’t have to do technical test to assure yourself which DAW you prefer – sure, but then you can’t just go around telling everybody X Y Z because you believe it so, you really have to offer some sort of evidence for your point to have any real substance. Assuring yourself of something and assuring others are two different things…

or did I still miss something? Sorry if my point came across a bit harsh, I just re-read it.

#157774
May 28, 2009 at 11:32pm
electrogear wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 18:28
MuShoo wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:23

And it whooshes right over someone’s head all over again…

No I get it – you don’t have to do technical test to assure yourself which DAW you prefer – sure, but then you can’t just go around telling everybody X Y Z because you believe it so, you really have to offer some sort of evidence for your point to have any real substance. Assuring yourself of something and assuring others are two different things…

or did I still miss something? Sorry if my point came across a bit harsh, I just re-read it.

Yes. Seems some folks need to have their Sarcasm-O-Meters checked…

#157775
May 28, 2009 at 11:35pm
stringtapper wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:32
Yes. Seems some folks need to have their Sarcasm-O-Meters checked…

Sorry, I apologise.

#157776
May 28, 2009 at 11:45pm

Right, just got the ‘joke’. Can’t work out who should be ashamed though – me for not getting a joke about software, or the person who made the joke to begin with… it was well into the supergeek spectrum…

#157777
May 29, 2009 at 12:42am

Well this is the Max/MSP forum. Most of our humor is ultrasonic.

You have to learn to tell the difference tones.

#157778
May 29, 2009 at 4:01am

nope… not sarcastic at all. Here’s proof. Ever since max5 my 5.1 audio projects have sounded a bit more round. Not in the center or the sub channels.. just in the corners.

get it?
get it?

#157779
May 29, 2009 at 6:34am
electrogear wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 01:45
Right, just got the ‘joke’. Can’t work out who should be ashamed though – me for not getting a joke about software, or the person who made the joke to begin with… it was well into the supergeek spectrum…

dude, this is the max forum, there is never
any sub-supergeek talk here.

-110

#157780
May 30, 2009 at 6:14am

Max isn’t yet on 5.1 we are still on 5.07.
I am afraid that with 5.1 all sound will go around on circles. Though acoustic laws would require at least 6 speakers for that, but if Dolby can do it, Max is capable of that for sure as well…

Stefan

#157781
May 30, 2009 at 6:15am
electrogear wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 01:45
it was well into the supergeek spectrum…

I bet the supergeeks don’t take themself serious either, but they would never tell, as there are enough who believe and pay. Seems to be the base for making a living…

Stefan

#157782
May 30, 2009 at 10:13am

Well if you’re looking for an amusing story: I once worked for a company developing software to simulate a 3D audio space from 2 speakers, based on the Microsoft DirectSound3D specification.

One April Fool, I sent out a memo saying there was a new project to simulate 3D audio from only ONE speaker!

A couple of executives replied saying they were very excited by the technology’s prospect, and asking me to forward more information.

One took it in good humor when I said it was April Fool.

The other was a little annoyed. When I indicated that the Microsoft DirectSound3D interface actually creates a 2D audio space, rather than a 3D audio space, he relented. I think I was the 200th hire, and I was the first person to ask why the technology was named 3D simulation when it was actually 2D. So I got away with humiliating an executive…since then I’ve been put on the gangplank for humiliating executives, so I don’t advise doing it unless you have a good fallback position.

Sorry to be offtopic again.

#157783
May 30, 2009 at 9:21pm

I guess I should add, it’s never a good idea to do anything which humiliates executives on purpose, even after they humiliate you. It’s better just to leave the company.

#157784
May 30, 2009 at 9:27pm

its not good idea to humiliate ANYBODY on purpose Wink

#157785
May 30, 2009 at 11:16pm

Well, it *was* my fault. I thought the executives would know it impossible to create 3D sound from one speaker, and would realize it to be an April fool joke. But in the end, they all walked off with millions of dollars from stock options when the company went bankrupt, so it worked out fine for them in the end.

#157786

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