Forums > Jitter

industrial firewire cameras with jitter, mac OSX

May 11, 2006 | 2:24 pm

Does anyone have experience of using an industrial IEEE-1394 camera with a jitter patch running on a Mac?
I am particularly considering Point Grey Research’s Firefly 2 board level camera (http://www.ptgrey.com/products/firefly2/index.asp) for use in a series of interactive gallery installations. In particular I would love to know if the camera is Mac compatible (which the trade lit does not gaurantee) and what sort of quality it offers (as compared to a handycam for example). Can it use different lenses?
Would be delighted to hear about any other solutions in my modest price range (no more than $350 per camera). Apple’s iSight is not quite up to spec (no zoom, no focus or zoom control).
Any suggestions?
Perhaps I’m on the wrong track?


May 12, 2006 | 1:20 am

If a camera is IIDC-compliant it should work under OSX. I can’t speak for the Point Grey Firefly, as I haven’t tried it, but it is IIDC. According to the specs, it uses a C/CS mount which means that there are plenty of lenses to chose from.

For other products in your price range, check out 1394Imaging (http://www.1394imaging.com/en/products/). I’ve been using the DFK21F04 for over two years without any problems. IIDC-compliant and uses C/CS mount for lenses. Their website also has several useful documents about cameras in general.

You should also look at Unibrain (http://www.unibrain.com/), which also manufactures Firewire cameras in your price range.

One option I’d look into is The Imaging Source’s DFG/1394-1e (http://www.1394imaging.com/en/products/converters/dfg13941e /overview/). It’s an video A/D converter. We use one and it works very well. The advantage is that there will be many more types of cameras you will be able to chose from, as analog cameras for the surveillance market are cheaper and more numerous than those for machine vision people.

Handycam-type camera often will give you prettier pictures. This is because they often use a 3CCD-type sensor. However, there are issues when using them for image analysis purposes. One is that you’re paying for lots of hardware you don’t need. You don’t need the recording and playback features for instance. The second problem is that those cameras output their data as a DV stream. DV is a compressed format, which means you will lose CPU cycles decompressing it, affecting your performance. Finally, some cameras automatically shot off after a certain time if you don’t keep a dummy tape running.

"Industrial" cameras typically output uncompressed video streams, which translates to better performance. Most if not all of the models in the price range you’re interested in use Bayer filtering, which is cheaper but yields lower colour accuracy. However, in many vision applications you might not need the extra quality of 3CCD cameras.

"Industrial" cameras also allow you more flexibility in regards to frame rate and image size. For instance, Point Grey’s Dragonfly Express can output data at up to 200fps. Some Imaging Source cameras do 1280×960 pixels.

In my experience, it helps a lot to have tools that are suited to your needs. Handycams are built to record video for viewing, while they can be used for vision purposes, that’s not what they do best.


May 12, 2006 | 8:22 am


May 13, 2006 | 3:36 am

Quote: connollycleary@noos.fr wrote on Fri, 12 May 2006 02:22

> By the way, I see a chap called Damien Douxchamps (http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee1394/cameras/index.php) has published a document listing and briefly evaluating firewire cameras, which looks very useful to a beginner like me.

Yes, that’s the mother site, pretty much every camera is there. A lot of those are super-expensive, though.

Industrial cameras typically come with 1/4" sockets which means they can be mounted the same way as any other camera. This is true for The Imaging Source and Point Grey cameras and Unibrain’s Fire-i 400.

Zoom lenses for Firewire cameras are manual. You adjust them just the same way you would adjust a still camera zoom. In many ways, this is better because you can manually lock the zoom to make sure your settings aren’t accidentaly changed.

Focal length is adjusted in a similar fashion, through a ring on the lens.

As for other settings, they are accessed via the driver — the "settings" message to jit.qt.grab. Furthermore, if the camera is IIDC-compatible, you can control all its settings from within your Jitter patch. This means that you can save your fine-tuned settings as presets, or control them in real-time. See the iidc_support sub-patcher in the jit.qt.grab helpfile.


May 13, 2006 | 9:07 am

OK, that all looks great and thanks once again.
Fortunate to hear from someone so informed.
Been looking seriously at Unibrain’s Fire-i 400 (http://www.unibrain.com/Products/VisionImg/Fire_i_400_Indus trial.htm) which looks like a good low budget solution…


May 21, 2006 | 10:04 am

Jean-Marc Pelletier wrote
"Industrial" cameras also allow you more flexibility in regards to frame rate and image size. For instance, Point Grey’s Dragonfly Express can output data at up to 200fps. Some Imaging Source cameras do 1280×960 pixels.

Has anyone tested this, does the jitter digitizer support frame rates up to 200 fps (if your computer is fast enough)?

hc



May 21, 2006 | 9:55 pm

I find that working with complex patches from live video feed, my output is often reduced to something around 15 fps, even from a G5 processor; I am constantly playing around with smaller matrixes and collapsing 4 char to 1 char to spare my processor. I can’t imagine how putting 200 fps or 1280×960 pixels through a patch would not just slow things up more…


May 21, 2006 | 10:39 pm

i have found that working with a Color Quad Processor/Spltter can get you
the benfit of 4 channels in one grab.
300 fps or 1280×960 pixels resolution and frame rates are not suitable for
video work, even in most industrial scenarios, they are not needed. 25fps in
a 160X120 for live tracking is recommended by many and i find enough for
data. if you want output the grab out, use half pal which scales good.
this is true for cheap labor, if have fasterbigger aspirations, check the
verygood thread awhile back on high res video input.
2c.


May 22, 2006 | 8:16 am

"300 fps or 1280×960 pixels resolution and frame rates are not suitable for
video work, even in most industrial scenarios, they are not needed. 25fps in
a 160X120 for live tracking is recommended by many and i find enough "

Lets just assume that I have other interests using a live input than having 25fps 160×120 for tracking purposes.

I am interested to find out if it is technically possible to input lets say 50 fps or 100 fps at 640×480, or 5 fps at 1280×960, using current mac drivers and max.

hc


July 28, 2006 | 6:27 pm

Do you know if any of the firewire cameras have exceptional performance in low light conditions? Do any of them have settings for adjusting to low light?

Thanks,

Randall Packer


July 29, 2006 | 3:58 am

This is an update, in case anyone’s interested. We have just received a Point Grey Dragonfly Express, and I have had a chance to try it out.

On a Windows machine, using the SDK provided, I could indeed get 120 fps at full resolution. I haven’t tried getting 200 fps at lower resolution, but since it is supported I don’t see any reason for it not working. The ideal thing to do would be to write a Jitter object to interface with the Point Grey API, which I plan to do when I get the time.

I also tried the camera on a G5 machine that had a Firewire 800 port. I had to use IOXpert’s Industrial Camera Driver (http://www.ioxperts.com/products/industrial.html) in order to be able to use the camera with Jitter. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to be able to output at frame rates greater than 60 Hz. This is still better than 30 fps, but not quite high enough to justify the expense of the camera + driver.


July 29, 2006 | 4:13 am

Quote: Randall Packer wrote on Fri, 28 July 2006 12:27
—————————————————-
> Do you know if any of the firewire cameras have exceptional performance in low light conditions? Do any of them have settings for adjusting to low light?

The technical term you might find useful is "quantum efficiency", which is a measurement of how many photons get transformed to data by a sensor.

Hamamatsu Photonics manufactures cameras for use in low-light condition. However, as they’re rather specialized devices, they don’t come cheap . A much better solution for working in low-light condition is to use infra-red lighting. B&W cameras and certain colour cameras (Fire-i’s board camera for instance) are sensitive to the near-infrared spectrum. You can buy infrared illuminators through security stores, or even make them yourself from IR LEDs if you’re so-inclined.


September 12, 2006 | 8:57 am

hi,

i am looking for the Point Grey’s Dragonfly Express. 200fps woud be a fantasic thing :)
Jean-Marc, can you please post future expiriences with this camera ?

many thanks
pe


September 12, 2006 | 9:19 am

For the moment, my experiences are just as they were two posts ago. If you’re on Windows and you’re willing to delve into C/C++, getting 200 fps is not much of a problem. _Processing_ 200 fps is another question, though.


September 12, 2006 | 10:19 am

i am working with a G5/osx and have no C/C++ experiences.
i’m wondering if it’s possible to record the frames with jit.matrixset and then export for editing etc
,looking for a way to record fast movments that the eye can’t see…


September 13, 2006 | 2:08 am

On a G5, I couldn’t get higher than 60fps. The driver is probaly at cause. Not really fast enough to pick up anything the eye couldn’t see.


September 14, 2006 | 9:56 pm

On 12-sep-2006, at 10:19, pelang wrote:

>
> i am working with a G5/osx and have no C/C++ experiences.
> i’m wondering if it’s possible to record the frames with
> jit.matrixset and then export for editing etc
> ,looking for a way to record fast movments that the eye can’t see…

I just came across http://www.outcastsoft.com/ASCASTROIIDC.html
a package to drive IIDC cams on OSX (PPC only)
they claim to record movies up to 240 pps
I have not tried it myself.
-jennek


September 11, 2007 | 9:54 am

Hi

We are looking for a high-speed camera solution for Jitter on OS X,
and I found this one year old thread on industrial cameras.

On 22. mai. 2006, at 10.16, hc gilje wrote:
> I am interested to find out if it is technically possible to input
> lets say 50 fps or 100 fps at 640×480, or 5 fps at 1280×960, using
> current mac drivers and max.

Are there any new ideas on this topic? Any cameras that run around
100fps? We have a bunch of Unibrain Fire-i’s that perform solidly,
but I wonder whether some of their industrial cameras will work. I
see they have some cameras that are supposed to run at 86 fps:

http://www.1394store.com/eshop/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=59

> On 29. jul. 2006, at 05.58, Jean-Marc Pelletier wrote:
>> This is an update, in case anyone’s interested. We have just
>> received a Point Grey Dragonfly Express, and I have had a chance
>> to try it out.
>>
>> On a Windows machine, using the SDK provided, I could indeed get
>> 120 fps at full resolution. I haven’t tried getting 200 fps at
>> lower resolution, but since it is supported I don’t see any reason
>> for it not working. The ideal thing to do would be to write a
>> Jitter object to interface with the Point Grey API, which I plan
>> to do when I get the time.

Did you write an object for this?

>> I also tried the camera on a G5 machine that had a Firewire 800
>> port. I had to use IOXpert’s Industrial Camera Driver (http://
>> http://www.ioxperts.com/products/industrial.html) in order to be able to
>> use the camera with Jitter. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to be able
>> to output at frame rates greater than 60 Hz. This is still better
>> than 30 fps, but not quite high enough to justify the expense of
>> the camera + driver.

Was this 60 Hz limit a driver problem or Jitter-related? Does it work
better now?

Thanks,
Alexander


September 11, 2007 | 1:19 pm

Here is the situation:

I currently use the Point Grey Dragonfly Express @ 120fps under Windows without any problem. For this, I had to make a Jitter external, which is simply a wrapper for the Point Grey API. As the API is Windows only, this solution does not work under Mac. I could release the external, if anyone’s interested. I haven’t done a serious bug check, though.

For Mac users, there’s hope, though. The libdc1394 library was recently ported to OSX. This is the library that is used under Linux to interface with Firewire imaging devices. I’m currently working on a Jitter wrapper object for that too.

With libdc1394, it will be possible to use cameras and framerates not supported under Quicktime. This includes the aboved-mentioned Dragonfly Express. Again, if anyone is interested, I’ll make this public when I’m done.

Jean-Marc

Quote: ARJ wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 03:54
—————————————————-

> Are there any new ideas on this topic? Any cameras that run around
> 100fps? We have a bunch of Unibrain Fire-i’s that perform solidly,
> but I wonder whether some of their industrial cameras will work. I
> see they have some cameras that are supposed to run at 86 fps:
> http://www.1394store.com/eshop/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=59


September 11, 2007 | 3:16 pm

I am interrested,

BTW does this link:
http://www.unibrain.com/Products/DriverAPI/Fire_i_API.htm
help ?

Cheers
DO_Ray

On 11 Sep 2007, at 15:19, Jean-Marc Pelletier wrote:

>
> Here is the situation:
>
> I currently use the Point Grey Dragonfly Express @ 120fps under
> Windows without any problem. For this, I had to make a Jitter
> external, which is simply a wrapper for the Point Grey API. As the
> API is Windows only, this solution does not work under Mac. I could
> release the external, if anyone’s interested. I haven’t done a
> serious bug check, though.
>
> For Mac users, there’s hope, though. The libdc1394 library was
> recently ported to OSX. This is the library that is used under
> Linux to interface with Firewire imaging devices. I’m currently
> working on a Jitter wrapper object for that too.
>
> With libdc1394, it will be possible to use cameras and framerates
> not supported under Quicktime. This includes the aboved-mentioned
> Dragonfly Express. Again, if anyone is interested, I’ll make this
> public when I’m done.
>
>
> Jean-Marc
>
>
>
> Quote: ARJ wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 03:54
> —————————————————-
>
>> Are there any new ideas on this topic? Any cameras that run around
>> 100fps? We have a bunch of Unibrain Fire-i’s that perform solidly,
>> but I wonder whether some of their industrial cameras will work. I
>> see they have some cameras that are supposed to run at 86 fps:
>> http://www.1394store.com/eshop/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=59
>
>
>


September 11, 2007 | 4:09 pm

how much latency do you get with the unibrain in windows?

On 9/11/07, DO_Ray wrote:
> I am interrested,
>
> BTW does this link:
> http://www.unibrain.com/Products/DriverAPI/Fire_i_API.htm
> help ?
>
> Cheers
> DO_Ray
>
> On 11 Sep 2007, at 15:19, Jean-Marc Pelletier wrote:
>
> >
> > Here is the situation:
> >
> > I currently use the Point Grey Dragonfly Express @ 120fps under
> > Windows without any problem. For this, I had to make a Jitter
> > external, which is simply a wrapper for the Point Grey API. As the
> > API is Windows only, this solution does not work under Mac. I could
> > release the external, if anyone’s interested. I haven’t done a
> > serious bug check, though.
> >
> > For Mac users, there’s hope, though. The libdc1394 library was
> > recently ported to OSX. This is the library that is used under
> > Linux to interface with Firewire imaging devices. I’m currently
> > working on a Jitter wrapper object for that too.
> >
> > With libdc1394, it will be possible to use cameras and framerates
> > not supported under Quicktime. This includes the aboved-mentioned
> > Dragonfly Express. Again, if anyone is interested, I’ll make this
> > public when I’m done.
> >
> >
> > Jean-Marc
> >
> >
> >
> > Quote: ARJ wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 03:54
> > —————————————————-
> >
> >> Are there any new ideas on this topic? Any cameras that run around
> >> 100fps? We have a bunch of Unibrain Fire-i’s that perform solidly,
> >> but I wonder whether some of their industrial cameras will work. I
> >> see they have some cameras that are supposed to run at 86 fps:
> >> http://www.1394store.com/eshop/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=59
> >
> >
> >
>
>


Jaime E Oliver LR

joliver@ucsd.edu
http://www.realidadvisual.org/jaimeoliver
www-crca.ucsd.edu/
http://www.realidadvisual.org

8628 Via Mallorca Apt. F
La Jolla, CA 92037
USA


September 11, 2007 | 4:42 pm

me too

the unibrains do not include the api with the camera. they cost 100$ less
then the firefly

On 9/11/07, DO_Ray wrote:
>
> I am interrested,
>
> BTW does this link:
> http://www.unibrain.com/Products/DriverAPI/Fire_i_API.htm
> help ?
>
> Cheers
> DO_Ray
>
> On 11 Sep 2007, at 15:19, Jean-Marc Pelletier wrote:
>
> >
> > Here is the situation:
> >
> > I currently use the Point Grey Dragonfly Express @ 120fps under
> > Windows without any problem. For this, I had to make a Jitter
> > external, which is simply a wrapper for the Point Grey API. As the
> > API is Windows only, this solution does not work under Mac. I could
> > release the external, if anyone’s interested. I haven’t done a
> > serious bug check, though.
> >
> > For Mac users, there’s hope, though. The libdc1394 library was
> > recently ported to OSX. This is the library that is used under
> > Linux to interface with Firewire imaging devices. I’m currently
> > working on a Jitter wrapper object for that too.
> >
> > With libdc1394, it will be possible to use cameras and framerates
> > not supported under Quicktime. This includes the aboved-mentioned
> > Dragonfly Express. Again, if anyone is interested, I’ll make this
> > public when I’m done.
> >
> >
> > Jean-Marc
> >
> >
> >
> > Quote: ARJ wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 03:54
> > —————————————————-
> >
> >> Are there any new ideas on this topic? Any cameras that run around
> >> 100fps? We have a bunch of Unibrain Fire-i’s that perform solidly,
> >> but I wonder whether some of their industrial cameras will work. I
> >> see they have some cameras that are supposed to run at 86 fps:
> >> http://www.1394store.com/eshop/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=59
> >
> >
> >
>
>


September 11, 2007 | 8:45 pm

Hi,

On 11. sep. 2007, at 15.19, Jean-Marc Pelletier wrote:
> With libdc1394, it will be possible to use cameras and framerates
> not supported under Quicktime. This includes the aboved-mentioned
> Dragonfly Express. Again, if anyone is interested, I’ll make this
> public when I’m done.

Yes, please. That would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Alexander


September 11, 2007 | 10:49 pm

Hi,
I would be interested in both the windows and osx drivers.

There is also the elphel camera using ethernet as connection which I know has been used on osx for a project in Holland (Arri, are you there?).
It is capable of 90 fps at 640×480 resolution.

http://www3.elphel.com/en/products

Anyone else on the list who have used this?

hc


September 12, 2007 | 8:52 am

Quote: hc gilje wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 16:49
—————————————————-

> There is also the elphel camera using ethernet as connection which I know has been used on osx for a project in Holland (Arri, are you there?).
> It is capable of 90 fps at 640×480 resolution.
> http://www3.elphel.com/en/products
>
> Anyone else on the list who have used this?
>
> hc
—————————————————-

Yes, we use.. :) You can see some examples here: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=elphel

And here: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Images_and_videos_examples

Now with the new model of Elphel camera: Elphel 353 it is possible to do even more. http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=353 And the limitation for FPS is actually the sensor: Micron MT9P001

Best regards.


September 12, 2007 | 1:10 pm

Hi,

> Quote: hc gilje wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 16:49
>> There is also the elphel camera using ethernet as connection which
>> I know has been used on osx for a project in Holland (Arri, are
>> you there?).

On 12. sep. 2007, at 10.52, polto wrote:
> Yes, we use.. :) You can see some examples here: http://
> video.google.com/videosearch?q=elphel

Very nice! Which object(s) do you use to access the video in Jitter?
I see the cameras send compressed images, how does this effect the
performance? What type of frame rates do you get in Jitter?

Thanks,
Alexander


November 12, 2007 | 7:37 am

Hi,

I just wanted to confirm that the Unibrain industrial cameras work
well with Jitter (no need for extra drivers). We have bought a
Unibrain 520 which run in VGA resolution at 86fps on a Mac Pro.

http://www.unibrain.com/Products/VisionImg/Fire_i_520.htm

The only thing is that I need to set "brightness 0" every time I turn
on the grabber. Seems like there is some auto-thing going on which
makes the image black (or grey), when the brightness is set to another
value.

Cheers,
Alexander

On 11. sep.. 2007, at 11.54, Alexander Refsum Jensenius wrote:
> We are looking for a high-speed camera solution for Jitter on OS X,
> and I found this one year old thread on industrial cameras.
>
> On 22. mai. 2006, at 10.16, hc gilje wrote:
>> I am interested to find out if it is technically possible to input
>> lets say 50 fps or 100 fps at 640×480, or 5 fps at 1280×960, using
>> current mac drivers and max.
>
> Are there any new ideas on this topic? Any cameras that run around
> 100fps? We have a bunch of Unibrain Fire-i’s that perform solidly,
> but I wonder whether some of their industrial cameras will work. I
> see they have some cameras that are supposed to run at 86 fps:
> http://www.1394store.com/eshop/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=59


November 15, 2007 | 4:52 am

Hi Jean-Marc,

Been a fan of your cv.jit objects since I first started working with Max. Just wanted to say thanks (particularly for how quickly you made them UB) and let you know I’m interested with the work you mentioned on Point Grey Cameras. I’m working with the PG Flea2, Bumblebee 2, and Ladybug cameras and would love to try and get some sort of functionality with them in Max/Jitter ideally on a Mac. Have you had any more progress getting these cameras working with jitter? Currently the Flea works like any other firewire camera, and I can get jit.qt.grab to recognize the bumblebee’s cameras individually (not simultaneously). If you have any ideas on how one might make these work I’m all ears.


May 21, 2012 | 6:13 am

was the jitter external for the dragonfly ever released? i would most really like to take a look at that…


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