Julien Bayle

some have probably followed my problems with internal audio routing with Soundflower & JACK.

I need a very solid solution and I'm looking for on the hardware side.

RME Fireface UC seems the good compromise (even if the price is high)

Totalmix feature seems the way to audio route from an application to another by using the audio interface itself (loopback without real wire loopback of course)

Hi there,
some have probably followed my problems with internal audio routing with Soundflower & JACK.

is-rme-fireface-uc-a-max-good-friend

you can't do it without wires. UC can work as standalone mixer: wire hardware inputs to outputs without help of computer. internally, it can't route between software channels.

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_uc_e.pdf

Metric halo soundcards can do this. I have a uln-2 and it can do what you want. The higher end sound cards also do this, such as the LIO and ULN-8. If you need a lot of channels you can also use a 2882. Preamps and conversion are of a bit lower quality.

I am using two RME UCXs in my live rig, replacing MOTU 828s. I do all my plugin routing through Max 5, routing everything to a single stereo pair on one of the RMEs and it works very well. However, I also have some Totalmix routings set up so that outputs from Max sent to specific "software playback" channels show up only on specific hardware outputs. That way FOH is able to mix 8 individual channels from me any way they like and a separate stereo monitoring output is available for the other musicians. I also use totalmix to merge my outputs with a stereo mix that comes back from the house monitoring system (entire band except my own stuff) and send that to an in-ear system. I use a lightpipe connection to send audio from the second RME back to the first one so that I can control everything from a single totalmix window.

The latency is far better than I experienced with the MOTU interfaces.

The only downside so far is that I have only been able to control remotely the first UCX using OSC messages (from Max)

I am using two RME UCXs in my live rig, replacing MOTU 828s. I do all my plugin routing through Max 5, routing everything to a single stereo pair on one of the RMEs and it works very well. However, I also have some Totalmix routings set up so that outputs from Max sent to specific "software playback" channels show up only on specific hardware outputs. That way FOH is able to mix 8 individual channels from me any way they like and a separate stereo monitoring output is available for the other musicians.  I also use totalmix to merge my outputs with a stereo mix that comes back from the house monitoring system (entire band except my own stuff) and send that to an in-ear system. I use a lightpipe connection to send audio from the second RME back to the first one so that I can control everything from a single totalmix window.

The only downside so far is that I have only been able to control remotely the first UCX using OSC messages (from Max)


I'm really happy with RME interfaces (400, 800 and UCX) and Ma[cx]+. With the 

 possible to re-route (hardware) outputs to inputs internally (with 2 softwares, you just need to carefully choose their I/O to send audio from one to another). I didn't use this feature in many projects so far, but it did work as expected.

It is also possible to route/mix the software channels to whatever hardware output you want (this is not possible with MOTU hardware): so for instance if you have 8 outputs in Max but want to listen to them on headphones, just change the routing in the RME rather than changing the mapping in Max.

I'm really happy with RME interfaces (400, 800 and UCX) and Ma[cx]+. With the loopback feature, it is possible to re-route (hardware) outputs to inputs internally (with 2 softwares, you just need to carefully choose their I/O to send audio from one to another). I didn't use this feature in many projects so far, but it did work as expected.
It is also possible to route/mix the software channels to whatever hardware output you want (this is not possible with MOTU hardware): so for instance if you have 8 outputs in Max but want to listen to them on headphones, just change the routing in the RME rather than changing the mapping in Max.


Hi there all and big thanks for your feedbacks.

Indeed, as @PATRICK wrote we can do that internally.

I had confirmation that even the BabyFace can do that:

http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=93348

Indeed, as @PATRICK wrote we can do that internally.
I had confirmation that even the BabyFace can do that:
http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=93348


i think what Julien is looking for is at least metric halo uln-8 (nearly 3 times the uc price), because 2 software re-routing is nearly the same as using jack/soundflower. my 2 cents, i would use loopback adat on rme without loss of conversion and latency. single cable 8 channels and you can route what you need

i have babyface, 400, 800. with their mixer you can't do it, maybe there is something magical i never found out

@AFWI: isn't totalmix a way to route to the DSPs on the interface (without loss and reconversion) ?

http://www.hdsp.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12270

JACK & Soundflower are crackling or unstable. that is a fact.

That is very surprising that we cannot find a reliable software solution with our CPU beasts.

I read that one: http://www.hdsp.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12270
That seems to be the case.

JACK & Soundflower are crackling or unstable. that is a fact.
That is very surprising that we cannot find a reliable software solution with our CPU beasts.


@AFWI, I'm worry and doubtful. Patrick seems to achieve that with 400, 800 and UCX.

I guess the RME's guy will answer me there soon : 

@AFWI, I'm worry and doubtful. Patrick seems to achieve that with 400, 800 and UCX.
would like to be sure, btw.
I guess the RME's guy will answer me there soon : http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=93348


oh gee. yes the babyface can do it. the older ones like 400 and 800 can't.

so yes babyface, uc, ucx and ufx can do it with new totalmix!

oh gee. yes the babyface can do it. the older ones like 400 and 800 can't.
so yes babyface, uc, ucx and ufx can do it with new totalmix!


check the picture i attached for loopback function

sorry for doubting you.
check the picture i attached for loopback function


I would also highly recommend the Metric Halo interfaces. I own a MIO 2882 as well as a RME Multiface and to compare TotalMix to MIO Console is futile. There are so many more advanced features in MIO using the +DSP card that they are really not at all in the same class. Even simply looking at the DSP graph options (custom MSP-like DSP chains) in MIO Console will convince you of that.

I use my 2882 with Max all the time, and with the latest driver/firmware it has been rock solid.

I would also highly recommend the Metric Halo interfaces.  I own a MIO 2882 as well as a RME Multiface and to compare TotalMix to MIO Console is futile.  There are so many more advanced features in MIO using the +DSP card that they are really not at all in the same class.  Even simply looking at the DSP graph options (custom MSP-like DSP chains) in MIO Console will convince you of that.

I use my 2882 with Max all the time, and with the latest driver/firmware it has been rock solid.


Damn it --- stop telling me about stuff that's even better than I've got!!!

@AFWI thanks a lot. and no problem about the doubts, this was an interesting thread finally :)

Just trying to figure out if some MOTU are doing that too.

Anyway, Fireface UC seems my best compromise

Just trying to figure out if some MOTU are doing that too.
Anyway, Fireface UC seems my best compromise


Motu, not that I'm aware of. Would love to hear it if there 's a way.

I was using CueMix with two MOTU 828 Mk3s. The hardware outputs were addressed directly from Max --- there was no intermediate "Software Playback" section as exists in the RME Totalmix.

That actually caused me a bit of problem when I switched to RME until I figured out this was happening because I only want to address explicit hardware outputs from Max. I had to configure each Totalmix Hardware output to only accept audio from the corresponding Software Playback section

 feature does work with the FF400 and FF800. It's explained page 78 in my FF400's user's manual.

To activate this, you need to ctrl-click in the label field in the output row in TotalMix.

AFAIK this features doesn't exist in MOTU's hardware.

@afwi: the loopback feature does work with the FF400 and FF800. It's explained page 78 in my FF400's user's manual.
To activate this, you need to ctrl-click in the label field in the output row in TotalMix.

AFAIK this features doesn't exist in MOTU's hardware.


Do you mean that we can do that with Motu and hat cuemix is the motu's related feature?

...but with recent MOTU hardware you can get a stereo mix back to the computer.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do with loopback, but if you're trying to get a single software output from Max go to multiple audio channels on the MOTU, couldn't you use lightpipe to do physical loopback. In other words, connect a lightpipe cable from the OUT to the IN, send your Max audio to a lightpipe "output port" which will then be received by the corresponding "input port" then create a mix where that input port is routed to several audio outputs.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do with loopback, but if you're trying to get a single software output from Max go to multiple audio channels on the MOTU, couldn't you use lightpipe to do physical loopback. In other words, connect a lightpipe cable from the OUT to the IN, send your Max audio to a lightpipe "output port" which will then be received by the corresponding "input port" then create a mix where that input port  is  routed to several audio outputs.

ff400 & ff800 are rme soundcard, not MOTU. No loopback with MOTU, but as I just wrote you can get back to the computer a mix done in cuemix.

The ADAT link is an interesting idea for a workaround on MOTU interfaces. Might try that sometime but I don't have the cable right now.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to do with loopback, but if you’re trying to get a single software output from Max go to multiple audio channels on the MOTU, couldn’t you use lightpipe to do physical loopback. In other words, connect a lightpipe cable from the OUT to the IN, send your Max audio to a lightpipe “output port” which will then be received by the corresponding “input port” then create a mix where that input port is routed to several audio outputs.

I'd need to grab around 8 channels from Live into Max and send them outside to 2 or more channels (depending on projects)

anyway, Fireface UC seems to be my best solution here:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/rme_fireface_uc.htm

 not the cheapest (but not the most expensive considering Metric Halo and higher RME...)

anyway, Fireface UC seems to be my best solution here:
- totalmix
- 6 balanced line outputs
- ...

http://www.thomann.de/gb/rme_fireface_uc.htm not the cheapest (but not the most expensive considering Metric Halo and higher RME...)


if really low latency is an issue for you ( as it is for me ) go RME HDSPe + Multiface

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/618474-audio-interface-low-latency-performance-data-base.html

is a little more expensive combo, but i'm super satisfied of its performance.

Hi Julien,
if really low latency is an issue for you ( as it is for me ) go RME HDSPe + Multiface 

Hmm, I don't use Live but I'm doing exactly what you describe with Max by itself.

Essentially, I have a [receive~ Left] and [receive~ right] connected to a [dac] associated with channels 9/10 (main out in MOTU 828] and then I send output from lots of different VSTs to those two [receive~] objects, hence merging many VST signals to a single pair. Can that not be done in the Live environment?

Hmm, I don't use Live but I'm doing exactly what you describe with Max by itself.
Essentially, I have a [receive~ Left] and [receive~ right] connected to a [dac] associated with channels 9/10 (main out in MOTU 828] and then I send output from lots of different VSTs to those two [receive~] objects, hence merging many VST signals to a single pair. Can that not be done in the Live environment?


I need to be able to send move my sources in the 2D space.

send~/receive~ with M4L isn't supported, basically.

@DHJDHJDHJ: no prob with max side.
I need to be able to send move my sources in the 2D space.Ambisonic ICST stuff is perfect for my project.

send~/receive~ with M4L isn't supported, basically.


Many Focusrite interfaces also offer two channels of loopback if that is all you need and are affordable.

so I broke the wallet and bought a RME Fireface UC (usb)

totalmix software offered all the routing features I needed.

I can route from a software to another to another etc, then mix down the whole stuff in the last element of the chain (here Max, for multichannel and spatialization) and then send the final mix down channels to real hardware channels.

so I broke the wallet and bought a RME Fireface UC (usb)
as far as I already tested, that ROCKS.

totalmix software offered all the routing features I needed.
I can route from a software to another to another etc, then mix down the whole stuff in the last element of the chain (here Max, for multichannel and spatialization) and then send the final mix down channels to real hardware channels.

I learn to love my RME and TotalMix more each day ;-): *especially* as I set up external channels in my Live projects..,and now I have mo-betta ADAT destinations than the old ADAT itself (ES3) ! 1 Happy camper...:-)

I learn to love my RME and TotalMix more each day  ;-): *especially* as I set up external channels in my Live projects..,and now I have mo-betta ADAT destinations than the old ADAT itself (ES3) ! 1 Happy camper...:-)


worked ALL the day in the studio as part of an artist residence for preparing disruption/impulse projects.

all this day plugged: NO CRACKLING, NO PROBLEM with that inter-applications routing... obviously, all is done on DSP in the box and this is REALLY REALLY reliable.

Cool. I had one for a couple of days, till I realized it can't output DC signals like the MOTU's. Needed that for laser control. It felt totally solid and inter-app routing is pretty neat, though I didn't try that out.

I can confirm. I am working with RME Fireface 400 since 6 year. No complaints. I love that interface. Really good engineering!!! To me it was worth every penny...

is RME Fireface UC a Max' good friend ?