havadisler

I'll ask quite a silly question but I have to...

We're about realise a live performance with huge real-time processing.

May you suggest a PC Laptop as mmm..."powerful" and "trustfull" enough for

And some usefull tricks are also welcome!

but this benchmark stuff gives me the creeps.

I'll ask quite a silly question but I have to...
We're about realise a live performance with huge real-time processing.
May you suggest a PC Laptop as mmm..."powerful" and "trustfull" enough for
handle this processing.
And some usefull tricks are also welcome!

I know is out of scope of this forum
but this benchmark stuff gives me the creeps.

laptop-for-audio-applications

> May you suggest a PC Laptop as mmm..."powerful" and "trustfull" enough for

> May you suggest a PC Laptop as mmm..."powerful" and "trustfull" enough for
> handle this processing.

I'm with Jean on this one, if you can get a macbook pro, it just wont go wrong, otherwise I've heard of a few people using sony Vaeo's - but as a mac user you know what i'd use ;)

> By the way, XP runs wonderfully over MacBookPros.

Technically, every personal computer is a PC (that's exactly what PC stands

for). But saying that XP runs wonderfully is a bit of an overstatement. Yes,

bootcamp sort of works but not all drivers are there and the ones that are

behave funny. For instance, every time you either resume the machine, MBP

for some reason reinitializes all USB and a couple other drivers (hard to

know which when this happens on the login screen where I have no access to

the device manager--one thing I do know, it makes the machine literally hang

and then behave sluggish for the next few minutes). This may be due to the

way Apple does EFI->BIOS translation. Either way, the system is more

sluggish than it ought to be for a machine with bleeding edge specs.

While we're at it, another (personal) frustration is that my MBP runs so hot

that you simply cannot keep it on your lap, period (in the case you are a

male user, if you have no intentions of having any offspring, I guess this

could be a kind of a feature, rather than a bug...). It is not that it is

uncomfortable. It is burning hot. The topside is only marginally better, but

after long use it makes my palm uncomfortable due to generated heat

(especially on the left side). Last but not least, if you buy a 15-inch MBP,

its video card (even though it is 1600x) is 30% down-clocked in software

(likely due to heat issues), so you are in essence getting a 1400x-ish card

NB: Both Windows and OSX have unsupported-may-kill-your-warranty-free OC-ing

software tools and while they can do the trick, I personally don't feel

comfortable OC-ing a laptop that is already having serious heat issues.

> Yes, they do.
> By the way, XP runs wonderfully over MacBookPros.

Technically, every personal computer is a PC (that's exactly what PC stands
for). But saying that XP runs wonderfully is a bit of an overstatement. Yes,
bootcamp sort of works but not all drivers are there and the ones that are
behave funny. For instance, every time you either resume the machine, MBP
for some reason reinitializes all USB and a couple other drivers (hard to
know which when this happens on the login screen where I have no access to
the device manager--one thing I do know, it makes the machine literally hang
and then behave sluggish for the next few minutes). This may be due to the
way Apple does EFI->BIOS translation. Either way, the system is more
sluggish than it ought to be for a machine with bleeding edge specs.

While we're at it, another (personal) frustration is that my MBP runs so hot
that you simply cannot keep it on your lap, period (in the case you are a
male user, if you have no intentions of having any offspring, I guess this
could be a kind of a feature, rather than a bug...). It is not that it is
uncomfortable. It is burning hot. The topside is only marginally better, but
after long use it makes my palm uncomfortable due to generated heat
(especially on the left side). Last but not least, if you buy a 15-inch MBP,
its video card (even though it is 1600x) is 30% down-clocked in software
(likely due to heat issues), so you are in essence getting a 1400x-ish card
performace.

NB: Both Windows and OSX have unsupported-may-kill-your-warranty-free OC-ing
software tools and while they can do the trick, I personally don't feel
comfortable OC-ing a laptop that is already having serious heat issues.

I work with max a lot on both pc and mac. I have no personal preference for either but my experience is that max runs best on mac with mac os x. Max has unknown/unresolved bugs on both platforms, but less on mac os x. My guess is simply that ppl at cycling 74 use max on mac os more often than pc/windows.

Mac hardware guarantees that there are less combinations of different hardware and drivers that cycling didn't test, so again less chance for bugs.

Quote: ico wrote on Tue, 06 March 2007 15:34

----------------------------------------------------

> > By the way, XP runs wonderfully over MacBookPros.

> Technically, every personal computer is a PC (that's exactly what PC stands

> for). But saying that XP runs wonderfully is a bit of an overstatement. Yes,

> bootcamp sort of works but not all drivers are there and the ones that are

> behave funny. For instance, every time you either resume the machine, MBP

> for some reason reinitializes all USB and a couple other drivers (hard to

> know which when this happens on the login screen where I have no access to

> the device manager--one thing I do know, it makes the machine literally hang

> and then behave sluggish for the next few minutes). This may be due to the

> way Apple does EFI->BIOS translation. Either way, the system is more

> sluggish than it ought to be for a machine with bleeding edge specs.

> While we're at it, another (personal) frustration is that my MBP runs so hot

> that you simply cannot keep it on your lap, period (in the case you are a

> male user, if you have no intentions of having any offspring, I guess this

> could be a kind of a feature, rather than a bug...). It is not that it is

> uncomfortable. It is burning hot. The topside is only marginally better, but

> after long use it makes my palm uncomfortable due to generated heat

> (especially on the left side). Last but not least, if you buy a 15-inch MBP,

> its video card (even though it is 1600x) is 30% down-clocked in software

> (likely due to heat issues), so you are in essence getting a 1400x-ish card

> NB: Both Windows and OSX have unsupported-may-kill-your-warranty-free OC-ing

> software tools and while they can do the trick, I personally don't feel

> comfortable OC-ing a laptop that is already having serious heat issues.

Quote: ico wrote on Tue, 06 March 2007 15:34
----------------------------------------------------
> > Yes, they do.
> > By the way, XP runs wonderfully over MacBookPros.
>
> Technically, every personal computer is a PC (that's exactly what PC stands
> for). But saying that XP runs wonderfully is a bit of an overstatement. Yes,
> bootcamp sort of works but not all drivers are there and the ones that are
> behave funny. For instance, every time you either resume the machine, MBP
> for some reason reinitializes all USB and a couple other drivers (hard to
> know which when this happens on the login screen where I have no access to
> the device manager--one thing I do know, it makes the machine literally hang
> and then behave sluggish for the next few minutes). This may be due to the
> way Apple does EFI->BIOS translation. Either way, the system is more
> sluggish than it ought to be for a machine with bleeding edge specs.
>
> While we're at it, another (personal) frustration is that my MBP runs so hot
> that you simply cannot keep it on your lap, period (in the case you are a
> male user, if you have no intentions of having any offspring, I guess this
> could be a kind of a feature, rather than a bug...). It is not that it is
> uncomfortable. It is burning hot. The topside is only marginally better, but
> after long use it makes my palm uncomfortable due to generated heat
> (especially on the left side). Last but not least, if you buy a 15-inch MBP,
> its video card (even though it is 1600x) is 30% down-clocked in software
> (likely due to heat issues), so you are in essence getting a 1400x-ish card
> performace.
>
> NB: Both Windows and OSX have unsupported-may-kill-your-warranty-free OC-ing
> software tools and while they can do the trick, I personally don't feel
> comfortable OC-ing a laptop that is already having serious heat issues.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ico
>
>
----------------------------------------------------


and theres stuff that I cant leave like lovely trackers

No Mac
Unfortinatelly
Running Windoz
Im a man with a screwdriver
and theres stuff that I cant leave like lovely trackers

Let me ask you: what version of MBP do you own?

Do you know that some overheating problems with macbookpros can be solved 

As regards resuming, I never do that. When I've finished working, I just 

shut down the machine and that's all. Never had problems.

Anyway I would be curious to know if it's possible to upgrade the drivers of 

the Ati x1600 using the pc version downloaded from Ati website.. (and this 

Subject: RE: [maxmsp] Laptop for Audio Applications

>> By the way, XP runs wonderfully over MacBookPros.

> Technically, every personal computer is a PC (that's exactly what PC 

> for). But saying that XP runs wonderfully is a bit of an overstatement. 

> the device manager--one thing I do know, it makes the machine literally 

> While we're at it, another (personal) frustration is that my MBP runs so 

> uncomfortable. It is burning hot. The topside is only marginally better, 

> (especially on the left side). Last but not least, if you buy a 15-inch 

> (likely due to heat issues), so you are in essence getting a 1400x-ish 

> NB: Both Windows and OSX have unsupported-may-kill-your-warranty-free 

Hi Ico,
I see what you're saying.
Let me ask you: what version of MBP do you own?
Do you know that some overheating problems with macbookpros can be solved 
upgrading to the latest firmware?
----
As regards resuming, I never do that. When I've finished working, I just 
shut down the machine and that's all. Never had problems.
Anyway I would be curious to know if it's possible to upgrade the drivers of 
the Ati x1600 using the pc version downloaded from Ati website.. (and this 
also for the other components..)
Bye

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ivica Ico Bukvic" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: [maxmsp] Laptop for Audio Applications

>> Yes, they do.
>> By the way, XP runs wonderfully over MacBookPros.
>
> Technically, every personal computer is a PC (that's exactly what PC 
> stands
> for). But saying that XP runs wonderfully is a bit of an overstatement. 
> Yes,
> bootcamp sort of works but not all drivers are there and the ones that are
> behave funny. For instance, every time you either resume the machine, MBP
> for some reason reinitializes all USB and a couple other drivers (hard to
> know which when this happens on the login screen where I have no access to
> the device manager--one thing I do know, it makes the machine literally 
> hang
> and then behave sluggish for the next few minutes). This may be due to the
> way Apple does EFI->BIOS translation. Either way, the system is more
> sluggish than it ought to be for a machine with bleeding edge specs.
>
> While we're at it, another (personal) frustration is that my MBP runs so 
> hot
> that you simply cannot keep it on your lap, period (in the case you are a
> male user, if you have no intentions of having any offspring, I guess this
> could be a kind of a feature, rather than a bug...). It is not that it is
> uncomfortable. It is burning hot. The topside is only marginally better, 
> but
> after long use it makes my palm uncomfortable due to generated heat
> (especially on the left side). Last but not least, if you buy a 15-inch 
> MBP,
> its video card (even though it is 1600x) is 30% down-clocked in software
> (likely due to heat issues), so you are in essence getting a 1400x-ish 
> card
> performace.
>
> NB: Both Windows and OSX have unsupported-may-kill-your-warranty-free 
> OC-ing
> software tools and while they can do the trick, I personally don't feel
> comfortable OC-ing a laptop that is already having serious heat issues.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ico
>


> Let me ask you: what version of MBP do you own?

> Do you know that some overheating problems with macbookpros can be solved

No change. I actually have a small applet in OSX which keeps fans running at

all times (although lower speed so that I don't have to listen to the

noise), and my MBP's cpu temp never drops below 50 Celsius (122F). My guess

is that the case temp is not much lower than that because it truly is

> As regards resuming, I never do that. When I've finished working, I just

> shut down the machine and that's all. Never had problems.

This is not suspend. This is "hibernate," meaning it shuts machine

completely down and dumps memory contents to HD with 0% battery usage and

when you start it back up, at least on regular HW Windoze, it resumes within

5-10 seconds depending upon the speed of your HD (less so on your memory).

Very useful when finishing a task is not an option and resetting your

working environment is a total pain. Mac has this as well but it cannot be

explicitly invoked (AFAIK, please correct me if I am wrong). Rather, it does

this when you are about to run out of battery in which case standby/sleep

won't cut it, and then upon subsequent restart the boot sequence will be

noticeably different signifying resuming from the deep

sleep/hibernate/whatever is the official Apple name for this.

> Anyway I would be curious to know if it's possible to upgrade the drivers

> the Ati x1600 using the pc version downloaded from Ati website.. (and this

For Windows you can try Omega drivers, they are usually much better than

vanilla ATI's as far as customization is concerned. Still they do not

address the fundamental issues with ATI's generally crappy history of poor

drivers (i.e. their OpenGL 2.x implementation misses 20% of the API), since

the Omega drivers do not backwards engineer core libs, but rather simply

enhance customization options and provide better defaults.

Other than that, generally ATI and Nvidia do not provide vanilla drivers for

mobile GPUs. Not sure if this is a legal issue or something else, but Omega

drivers are pretty much latest vanilla drivers with alterations which allow

it for the driver to be installed on a mobile device as well (at your own

Either way, none of these generally solve the aforesaid problem favorably as

you are either overclocking the card over the factory spec (which was set

there for a reason) and are also doing a darn good job of possibly voiding

your warranty, or you are purchasing something that does not work as

advertised. The end result is that various (usually more bulky and less

visually appealing) Windows laptops can score 4,100+ on the 3D Mark 2005

bench test with identical hardware (Windows-only test but *should* be OS

agnostic figures), while MBP (15.4-inch) does only ~2,500.

FWIW, 17-inch MBP is not down-clocked (likely due to large heat-dissipating

surface which allows for better cooling).

> Hi Ico,
> I see what you're saying.
> Let me ask you: what version of MBP do you own?

> Do you know that some overheating problems with macbookpros can be solved
> upgrading to the latest firmware?

No change. I actually have a small applet in OSX which keeps fans running at
all times (although lower speed so that I don't have to listen to the
noise), and my MBP's cpu temp never drops below 50 Celsius (122F). My guess
is that the case temp is not much lower than that because it truly is
scalding hot.

> As regards resuming, I never do that. When I've finished working, I just
> shut down the machine and that's all. Never had problems.

This is not suspend. This is "hibernate," meaning it shuts machine
completely down and dumps memory contents to HD with 0% battery usage and
when you start it back up, at least on regular HW Windoze, it resumes within
5-10 seconds depending upon the speed of your HD (less so on your memory).
Very useful when finishing a task is not an option and resetting your
working environment is a total pain. Mac has this as well but it cannot be
explicitly invoked (AFAIK, please correct me if I am wrong). Rather, it does
this when you are about to run out of battery in which case standby/sleep
won't cut it, and then upon subsequent restart the boot sequence will be
noticeably different signifying resuming from the deep
sleep/hibernate/whatever is the official Apple name for this.

> Anyway I would be curious to know if it's possible to upgrade the drivers
> of
> the Ati x1600 using the pc version downloaded from Ati website.. (and this
> also for the other components..)

For Windows you can try Omega drivers, they are usually much better than
vanilla ATI's as far as customization is concerned. Still they do not
address the fundamental issues with ATI's generally crappy history of poor
drivers (i.e. their OpenGL 2.x implementation misses 20% of the API), since
the Omega drivers do not backwards engineer core libs, but rather simply
enhance customization options and provide better defaults.

Other than that, generally ATI and Nvidia do not provide vanilla drivers for
mobile GPUs. Not sure if this is a legal issue or something else, but Omega
drivers are pretty much latest vanilla drivers with alterations which allow
it for the driver to be installed on a mobile device as well (at your own
risk, of course).

Either way, none of these generally solve the aforesaid problem favorably as
you are either overclocking the card over the factory spec (which was set
there for a reason) and are also doing a darn good job of possibly voiding
your warranty, or you are purchasing something that does not work as
advertised. The end result is that various (usually more bulky and less
visually appealing) Windows laptops can score 4,100+ on the 3D Mark 2005
bench test with identical hardware (Windows-only test but *should* be OS
agnostic figures), while MBP (15.4-inch) does only ~2,500.

FWIW, 17-inch MBP is not down-clocked (likely due to large heat-dissipating
surface which allows for better cooling).

I am in the same boat, examining laptops with the goal of buying one. Here in Spain they sell a laptop by LG with almost exactly the same specs as a MBP. (If I remember correctly, its hard-disc may be a few GB smaller...) It is even white. Guess what? It costs the same as well, perhaps even a tad more, depending on where you buy the mac. This seems to be the same for all of the PC's exhibiting hardware in the MBP range. I've worked with both PC's and Mac's with Max/MSP and Jitter and never had any notable problems. If problems arise, then they are with the soundcards or cameras I connect to the computers, and the solutions are always relatively easy to find. 

I suppose that if someone doesn't want to fool around much with configuring the computer to be a trustworthy performance tool, then one computer may be easier to start with than another; but that would be like a guitarrist who doesn't like to tune their instrument, and probably wouldn't be using Max/MSP anyway.

Since I cannot find any big difference in specs or price, I will opt for the MBP. There is more information and help on the web for getting certain things done.

I am in the same boat, examining laptops with the goal of buying one.  Here in Spain they sell a laptop by LG with almost exactly the same specs as a MBP. (If I remember correctly, its hard-disc may be a few GB smaller...)  It is even white.  Guess what? It costs the same as well, perhaps even a tad more, depending on where you buy the mac.  This seems to be the same for all of the PC's exhibiting hardware in the MBP range.  I've worked with both PC's and Mac's with Max/MSP and Jitter and never had any notable problems.  If problems arise, then they are with the soundcards or cameras I connect to the computers, and the solutions are always relatively easy to find.  
I suppose that if someone doesn't want to fool around much with configuring the computer to be a trustworthy performance tool, then one computer may be easier to start with than another; but that would be like a guitarrist who doesn't like to tune their instrument, and probably wouldn't be using Max/MSP anyway.

Since I cannot find any big difference in specs or price, I will opt for the MBP.  There is more information and help on the web for getting certain things done.


I knew that first generation Macbookpros had overheating problems. Even 17" 

version had them, but I read many people got better results with latest 

However, core 2 duo MBpros are far way better, especially 17" versions, as 

I know about Omega drivers for Ati mobile graphic cards, but never tried 

I saw that ther aren't recent Omega drivers for Nvidia cards..

I bet they are good driver, but whether to use them or not it depends on 

what you usually do with your computer. Doing some stuff with Max Msp or 

sequencing with Nuendo doesn't imply a large use of graphic resources. Am I 

Otherwise these activities imply a lot of processing power, especially for 

real time applications in Max. MBP shouldn't give you problems with that..

>> Let me ask you: what version of MBP do you own?

>> Do you know that some overheating problems with macbookpros can be solved

> No change. I actually have a small applet in OSX which keeps fans running 

> all times (although lower speed so that I don't have to listen to the

> noise), and my MBP's cpu temp never drops below 50 Celsius (122F). My 

> is that the case temp is not much lower than that because it truly is

>> As regards resuming, I never do that. When I've finished working, I just

>> shut down the machine and that's all. Never had problems.

> This is not suspend. This is "hibernate," meaning it shuts machine

> completely down and dumps memory contents to HD with 0% battery usage and

> when you start it back up, at least on regular HW Windoze, it resumes 

> 5-10 seconds depending upon the speed of your HD (less so on your memory).

> Very useful when finishing a task is not an option and resetting your

> working environment is a total pain. Mac has this as well but it cannot be

> explicitly invoked (AFAIK, please correct me if I am wrong). Rather, it 

> this when you are about to run out of battery in which case standby/sleep

> won't cut it, and then upon subsequent restart the boot sequence will be

> noticeably different signifying resuming from the deep

> sleep/hibernate/whatever is the official Apple name for this.

>> Anyway I would be curious to know if it's possible to upgrade the drivers

>> the Ati x1600 using the pc version downloaded from Ati website.. (and 

> For Windows you can try Omega drivers, they are usually much better than

> vanilla ATI's as far as customization is concerned. Still they do not

> address the fundamental issues with ATI's generally crappy history of poor

> drivers (i.e. their OpenGL 2.x implementation misses 20% of the API), 

> the Omega drivers do not backwards engineer core libs, but rather simply

> enhance customization options and provide better defaults.

> Other than that, generally ATI and Nvidia do not provide vanilla drivers 

Hi Ico,
I knew that first generation Macbookpros had overheating problems. Even 17" 
version had them, but I read many people got better results with latest 
firmware.
However, core 2 duo MBpros are far way better, especially 17" versions, as 
you say.
---
I know about Omega drivers for Ati mobile graphic cards, but never tried 
them. Have you?
I saw that ther aren't recent Omega drivers for Nvidia cards..
I bet they are good driver, but whether to use them or not it depends on 
what you usually do with your computer. Doing some stuff with Max Msp or 
sequencing with Nuendo doesn't imply a large use of graphic resources. Am I 
wrong?
Otherwise these activities imply a lot of processing power, especially for 
real time applications in Max. MBP shouldn't give you problems with that..
Best

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ivica Ico Bukvic" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: RE: [maxmsp] Laptop for Audio Applications

>> Hi Ico,
>> I see what you're saying.
>> Let me ask you: what version of MBP do you own?
>
> First gen. Latest firmware.
>
>> Do you know that some overheating problems with macbookpros can be solved
>> upgrading to the latest firmware?
>
> No change. I actually have a small applet in OSX which keeps fans running 
> at
> all times (although lower speed so that I don't have to listen to the
> noise), and my MBP's cpu temp never drops below 50 Celsius (122F). My 
> guess
> is that the case temp is not much lower than that because it truly is
> scalding hot.
>
>> As regards resuming, I never do that. When I've finished working, I just
>> shut down the machine and that's all. Never had problems.
>
> This is not suspend. This is "hibernate," meaning it shuts machine
> completely down and dumps memory contents to HD with 0% battery usage and
> when you start it back up, at least on regular HW Windoze, it resumes 
> within
> 5-10 seconds depending upon the speed of your HD (less so on your memory).
> Very useful when finishing a task is not an option and resetting your
> working environment is a total pain. Mac has this as well but it cannot be
> explicitly invoked (AFAIK, please correct me if I am wrong). Rather, it 
> does
> this when you are about to run out of battery in which case standby/sleep
> won't cut it, and then upon subsequent restart the boot sequence will be
> noticeably different signifying resuming from the deep
> sleep/hibernate/whatever is the official Apple name for this.
>
>> Anyway I would be curious to know if it's possible to upgrade the drivers
>> of
>> the Ati x1600 using the pc version downloaded from Ati website.. (and 
>> this
>> also for the other components..)
>
> For Windows you can try Omega drivers, they are usually much better than
> vanilla ATI's as far as customization is concerned. Still they do not
> address the fundamental issues with ATI's generally crappy history of poor
> drivers (i.e. their OpenGL 2.x implementation misses 20% of the API), 
> since
> the Omega drivers do not backwards engineer core libs, but rather simply
> enhance customization options and provide better defaults.
>
> Other than that, generally ATI and Nvidia do not provide vanilla drivers 
> for
> mobile GPUs. Not sure if this is a legal issue or something else, but 
> Omega
> drivers are pretty much latest vanilla drivers with alterations which 
> allow
> it for the driver to be installed on a mobile device as well (at your own
> risk, of course).
>
> Either way, none of these generally solve the aforesaid problem favorably 
> as
> you are either overclocking the card over the factory spec (which was set
> there for a reason) and are also doing a darn good job of possibly voiding
> your warranty, or you are purchasing something that does not work as
> advertised. The end result is that various (usually more bulky and less
> visually appealing) Windows laptops can score 4,100+ on the 3D Mark 2005
> bench test with identical hardware (Windows-only test but *should* be OS
> agnostic figures), while MBP (15.4-inch) does only ~2,500.
>
> FWIW, 17-inch MBP is not down-clocked (likely due to large 
> heat-dissipating
> surface which allows for better cooling).
>
> Bes wishes,
>
> Ico
>


> I knew that first generation Macbookpros had overheating problems. Even

> version had them, but I read many people got better results with latest

> However, core 2 duo MBpros are far way better, especially 17" versions, as

Well, that's great. Now where do sign to get a check from Apple for being

their perpetual beta tester, or even better, how do I get my MBP replaced

for one of the core2duo models... Just kidding ;-)

In the good ole' days when Dell was worth something (1999-ish), I remember

having a Dell Inspiron which I bought refurbished and when it broke, I got a

total replacement overnighted which had 2x CPU speed and 2x memory. I also

have fond memories of upgrading its GPU twice from ATI Rage 128 to

Geforce2go and eventually to Geforce4go. All that without voiding warranty.

Now that was one heck of a laptop service...

> I know about Omega drivers for Ati mobile graphic cards, but never tried

> I saw that ther aren't recent Omega drivers for Nvidia cards..

Not sure. Vanilla Nvidia drivers are not nearly as bad as ATI (again IMHO),

so I never resorted to looking for Omega version. I actually did not even