I've been looking for A/V software to create installation and live performances with. From what I have gathered the Max/MSP/Jitter bundle seem to be the ideal solution in terms of flexibility and creativity, but I am a little scared that I might be getting in over my head. I have no real programming experience (a little HTML exposure) and my computer music experience has so far only involved Garageband, Traktor DJ and a bit of Live.

So, what's the learning curve for these products? What can they do out of the box? Primarily, at this point, I am interested in using visuals triggered by live sound, in VJ and installation applications.

I am currently using a G4 Powerbook (1.25 ghz, 1.25 GB RAM) and hope to get another year out of it before switching to a MacBook Pro.

As far as controllers go I have an M-Audio O2 but am planning on getting a JazzMutant Lemur.

I've been looking for A/V software to create installation and live performances with.  From what I have gathered the Max/MSP/Jitter bundle seem to be the ideal solution in terms of flexibility and creativity, but I am a little scared that I might be getting in over my head.  I have no real programming experience (a little HTML exposure) and my computer music experience has so far only involved Garageband, Traktor DJ and a bit of Live.

So, what's the learning curve for these products?  What can they do  out of the box?  Primarily, at this point, I am interested in using visuals triggered by live sound, in VJ and installation applications.

I am currently using a G4 Powerbook (1.25 ghz, 1.25 GB RAM) and hope to get another year out of it before switching to a MacBook Pro.  

PS  Are any of you in the Portland area?


learning-curve

Well... the standard answer goes something like this...

Download the demo (30 days free) and start working through the excellent tutorials. They should get you started, and you should quickly get a sense for the amount of learning curve involved.

For myself.... I started in Max with very little programming experience. I got sucked in pretty quick. I had some pretty specific things that I was trying to accomplish (starting very small of course...) and I just kept reading and pushing until I made it work. By that point I was in too deep, and never looked back...

Quote: dis wrote on Wed, 04 April 2007 15:46

----------------------------------------------------

> I've been looking for A/V software to create installation and live performances with. From what I have gathered the Max/MSP/Jitter bundle seem to be the ideal solution in terms of flexibility and creativity, but I am a little scared that I might be getting in over my head. I have no real programming experience (a little HTML exposure) and my computer music experience has so far only involved Garageband, Traktor DJ and a bit of Live.

> So, what's the learning curve for these products? What can they do out of the box? Primarily, at this point, I am interested in using visuals triggered by live sound, in VJ and installation applications.

> PS Are any of you in the Portland area? 

Download the demo (30 days free) and start working through the excellent tutorials.  They should get you started, and you should quickly get a sense for the amount of learning curve involved.

For myself.... I started in Max with very little programming experience.  I got sucked in pretty quick.  I had some pretty specific things that I was trying to accomplish (starting very small of course...) and I just kept reading and pushing until I made it work.  By that point I was in too deep, and never looked back...

Quote: dis wrote on Wed, 04 April 2007 15:46
----------------------------------------------------
> I've been looking for A/V software to create installation and live performances with.  From what I have gathered the Max/MSP/Jitter bundle seem to be the ideal solution in terms of flexibility and creativity, but I am a little scared that I might be getting in over my head.  I have no real programming experience (a little HTML exposure) and my computer music experience has so far only involved Garageband, Traktor DJ and a bit of Live.
>
> So, what's the learning curve for these products?  What can they do  out of the box?  Primarily, at this point, I am interested in using visuals triggered by live sound, in VJ and installation applications.

>
> Thanks.
>
> PS  Are any of you in the Portland area?  
----------------------------------------------------


There's a real-live card-carryinglearning curve. How steep and long the incline actually is may be related to some things we don't know about you. Those things will often be simple, and more general: how do you solve problems? How adept are you at searching for answers? Do you tend to approach a problem by imagining grand solutions or lots of humble little ones? Any piece of software - whether it's a programming environment like Max or an end-user application of some sort involves someone thinking about a way to generalize a kind of problem-solving technique. There are many ways of doing that, some of which may make a lot more sense to you than others.

Those are all personal matters. I've used Max for a long time. I am certainly not the kind of person who operates at the skill level of many people here (stop snickering, you guys!), but I am able to do the things I have set myself the task of doing, and - to my continued amusement and frustration, sometimes - I still seem to be able to acquire new skills when I have no other choice . As a software consumer, there's an interesting marketing dynamic afoot that works to sell you things by simultaneously telling you that everything is easy while implying that you are a creative genius who is kept from greatness only by not owning the easy thing someone wishes to sell you. In my limited experience, a *good* piece of software is one that explodes both of those myths by presenting you with the gift of coming to see how and why craft *matters* rather than remaining "easy", and by granting you the gift of humility in a quiet way - by allowing you to try out your grand schemes and discover that they may well be lame ideas (or the really wonderful moment where you can see a piece of something shiny and beautiful in your pile of formerly great ideas).

Max will do that for you; turn you aside from your great ideas into new ideas that will nourish you, make you crazy at some points, and reward your intentions in ways you don't expect. Those are all gifts of time and attention. And effort - you learn by going where to go. For some people, that's the greatest fun one can have. For others, not so much.

If your interest is VJ-type stuff, then I'd do what I usually do when I do Max workshops - suggest the virtues of starting small at first, while trying to show you some of what you could do. That would include the following examples, which are built using Max:

which comes with the source patch for you to tear apart and investigate. When I say you owe him a pint for this [quite apart from a voluntary PayPal pint's worth], I'm being polite.

* On the "commercial"side of things, there are two very interesting end-user VJ applications built using Max (I'm listing them alphabetically, lest you assume that order implies endorsement). They are both amazing pieces of work - somewhat different in approach in terms of the way they concaptualize performance and workflow, but worthy of your attention nonetheless. It will um... be a while before you can do this, as I suggest to workshop students, but that's no reason not to look at them. In fact, they might do all the things you want to do as they are now. :-)

http://www.lividinstruments.com/software_union.php)

There's a real-live card-carryinglearning curve. How steep and long the incline actually is may be related to some things we don't know about you. Those things will often be simple, and more general: how do you solve problems? How adept are you at searching for answers? Do you tend to approach a problem by imagining grand solutions or lots of humble little ones? Any piece of software - whether it's a programming environment like Max or an end-user application of some sort involves someone thinking about a way to generalize a kind of problem-solving technique. There are many ways of doing that, some of which may make a lot more sense to you than others. 

* Joshua Goldberg's Dervish (http://www.goldbergs.com/dervish/),
which comes with the source patch for you to tear apart and investigate. When I say you owe him a pint for this [quite apart from a voluntary PayPal pint's worth], I'm being polite.

Livid Union (http://www.lividinstruments.com/software_union.php)
VDMX (http://www.vidvox.net/)

Thanks for the feedback. I am planning on downloading the demo as soon as I get my new hard drive installed (should be here tomorrow, hopefully).

The links and websites are appreciated as well.

Thanks for the feedback.  I am planning on downloading the demo as soon as I get my new hard drive installed (should be here tomorrow, hopefully).  

The links and websites are appreciated as well.


get max and delve into it, you will probably get hooked and never look back. that's a good thing. it can certainly do everything you're looking for and a whole lot more... based mainly upon how much you want to delve and how much you like to solve problems.

*** more learning and reading at the front end will save you hundreds of hours at the back end. learn all them objects and fiddle, but don't fiddle for the sake of fiddling. think 90% conception and 10% patching.

if you like to tinker and don't want to mess with code, this is the program for you. plus the forum is fantastic, as are the folks at Cycling!

get max and delve into it, you will probably get hooked and never look back. that's a good thing. it can certainly do everything you're looking for and a whole lot more... based mainly upon how much you want to delve and how much you like to solve problems. 

woof. dervish is a VERY OLD PATCH. i am older and wiser now. but 

it always makes me happy when people crack it open. what's funny is 

that the executable won't even run under 10.4... i like that it's 

frozen in time, abandonware, but with the keys to the kingdom extant.

On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:41 AM, Gregory Taylor wrote:

> There's a real-live card-carryinglearning curve. How steep and long 

> the incline actually is may be related to some things we don't know 

> about you. Those things will often be simple, and more general: how 

> do you solve problems? How adept are you at searching for answers? 

> Do you tend to approach a problem by imagining grand solutions or 

> lots of humble little ones? Any piece of software - whether it's a 

> programming environment like Max or an end-user application of some 

> sort involves someone thinking about a way to generalize a kind of 

> problem-solving technique. There are many ways of doing that, some 

> of which may make a lot more sense to you than others.

> Those are all personal matters. I've used Max for a long time. I am 

> certainly not the kind of person who operates at the skill level of 

> many people here (stop snickering, you guys!), but I am able to do 

> the things I have set myself the task of doing, and - to my 

> continued amusement and frustration, sometimes - I still seem to be 

> able to acquire new skills when I have no other choice

> smile>. As a software consumer, there's an interesting marketing 

> dynamic afoot that works to sell you things by simultaneously 

> telling you that everything is easy while implying that you are a 

> creative genius who is kept from greatness only by not owning the 

> easy thing someone wishes to sell you. In my limited experience, a 

> *good* piece of software is one that explodes both of those myths 

> by presenting you with the gift of coming to see how and why craft 

> *matters* rather than remaining "easy", and by granting you the 

> gift of humility in a quiet way - by allowing you to try out your gr!

> and schemes and discover that they may well be lame ideas (or the 

> really wonderful moment where you can see a piece of something 

> shiny and beautiful in your pile of formerly great ideas).

> Max will do that for you; turn you aside from your great ideas into 

> new ideas that will nourish you, make you crazy at some points, and 

> reward your intentions in ways you don't expect. Those are all 

> gifts of time and attention. And effort - you learn by going where 

> to go. For some people, that's the greatest fun one can have. For 

> If your interest is VJ-type stuff, then I'd do what I usually do 

> when I do Max workshops - suggest the virtues of starting small at 

> first, while trying to show you some of what you could do. That 

> would include the following examples, which are built using Max:

> which comes with the source patch for you to tear apart and 

> investigate. When I say you owe him a pint for this [quite apart 

> from a voluntary PayPal pint's worth], I'm being polite.

> * On the "commercial"side of things, there are two very interesting 

> end-user VJ applications built using Max (I'm listing them 

woof.  dervish is a VERY OLD PATCH.  i am older and wiser now.  but  
it always makes me happy when people crack it open.  what's funny is  
that the executable won't even run under 10.4... i like that it's  
frozen in time, abandonware, but with the keys to the kingdom extant.

>
> There's a real-live card-carryinglearning curve. How steep and long  
> the incline actually is may be related to some things we don't know  
> about you. Those things will often be simple, and more general: how  
> do you solve problems? How adept are you at searching for answers?  
> Do you tend to approach a problem by imagining grand solutions or  
> lots of humble little ones? Any piece of software - whether it's a  
> programming environment like Max or an end-user application of some  
> sort involves someone thinking about a way to generalize a kind of  
> problem-solving technique. There are many ways of doing that, some  
> of which may make a lot more sense to you than others.
>
> Those are all personal matters. I've used Max for a long time. I am  
> certainly not the kind of person who operates at the skill level of  
> many people here (stop snickering, you guys!), but I am able to do  
> the things I have set myself the task of doing, and - to my  
> continued amusement and frustration, sometimes - I still seem to be  
> able to acquire new skills when I have no other choice
> smile>. As a software consumer, there's an interesting marketing  
> dynamic afoot that works to sell you things by simultaneously  
> telling you that everything is easy while implying that you are a  
> creative genius who is kept from greatness only by not owning the  
> easy thing someone wishes to sell you. In my limited experience, a  
> *good* piece of software is one that explodes both of those myths  
> by presenting you with the gift of coming to see how and why craft  
> *matters* rather than remaining "easy", and by granting you the  
> gift of humility in a quiet way - by allowing you to try out your gr!
>  and schemes and discover that they may well be lame ideas (or the  
> really wonderful moment where you can see a piece of something  
> shiny and beautiful in your pile of formerly great ideas).
>
> Max will do that for you; turn you aside from your great ideas into  
> new ideas that will nourish you, make you crazy at some points, and  
> reward your intentions in ways you don't expect. Those are all  
> gifts of time and attention. And effort - you learn by going where  
> to go. For some people, that's the greatest fun one can have. For  
> others, not so much.
>
> If your interest is VJ-type stuff, then I'd do what I usually do  
> when I do Max workshops - suggest the virtues of starting small at  
> first, while trying to show you some of what you could do. That  
> would include the following examples, which are built using Max:
>
> * Joshua Goldberg's Dervish (http://www.goldbergs.com/dervish/),
> which comes with the source patch for you to tear apart and  
> investigate. When I say you owe him a pint for this [quite apart  
> from a voluntary PayPal pint's worth], I'm being polite.
>
> * On the "commercial"side of things, there are two very interesting  
> end-user VJ applications built using Max (I'm listing them  
> alphabetically, lest you assume that order implies endorsement).  
> They are both amazing pieces of work - somewhat different in  
> approach in terms of the way they concaptualize performance and  
> workflow, but worthy of your attention nonetheless. It will um...  
> be a while before you can do this, as I suggest to workshop  
> students, but that's no reason not to look at them. In fact, they  
> might do all the things you want to do as they are now. :-)
>
> Livid Union (http://www.lividinstruments.com/software_union.php)
> VDMX (http://www.vidvox.net/)
>
> Good luck. Here endeth the lesson.
> --
> knowledge is not enough/science is not enough/Love is dreaming this  
> equation
>


Learning Curve