i have created a live looping tool and want to share it…
it’s not finished now, altough after playing for a while i get some quite good sounds out of it.
i also would appreciate tips for improvement.
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Surely Max/MSP is to do stuff no-one does yet…
Anyway… aren’t there more imaginative things you could spend your time on?!
Keep going with it, Schmonsky!
See, this just makes me sad:
jg, if you had bothered to check you would have noticed that it clearly
does a wide variety of things not possible in Ableton Live…
Simon, would it be possible to get a walkthrough?
> Surely Max/MSP is to do stuff no-one does yet…
> Anyway… aren’t there more imaginative things you could spend your time on?!
nice work !
i just opened it and i found a little bug
outlet 2 of buffer~ linus2 is connected to inlet 2 of message object, should
be inlet 1.
2008/10/8 Andreas Wetterberg
> See, this just makes me sad:
> jg, if you had bothered to check you would have noticed that it clearly
> does a wide variety of things not possible in Ableton Live…
> Simon, would it be possible to get a walkthrough?
> jg skrev:
>> create patches to do this when they exist already?
>> Surely Max/MSP is to do stuff no-one does yet…
>> Anyway… aren’t there more imaginative things you could spend your time
hello.i’m not exactly shure what a walktrough is?
explaining all the things that it does or can do?
if you meant that i would be very interested….
thank you for the hint.
Quote: johngodfrey wrote on Tue, 07 October 2008 18:03
> Surely Max/MSP is to do stuff no-one does yet…
> Anyway… aren’t there more imaginative things you could spend your time on?!
What if you don’t own live. Why spend 500.00 dollars when
I can whip up a max patch that does what Live does.
surely???? max/msp is to do whatever the fuck you like on.
Anyone on this list who is kind enough to actually
*share* the work they do here – either because they
are "reporting" the assistance they’ve received from
others (after searching the usual places and then
bothering to ask detailed and intelligent questions
that rise above the level of "Can you send me a
patch that does what
be generous deserves our thanks. When done
well, such things inform and may inspire others.
While it may be so that beginners tend to aspire to
some collection of minor variations on things that
exist in the commercial software world already, to
claim that anyone should simply use a commercially
available program makes a variety of assumptions
about the financial status of the maker, and also
may be an unintended commentary on the imagination
of the person who advises us that there’s only one
way to do something and that some piece of software
does that already.
Funny, I had similar responses (use Live, don’t reinvent the wheel etc) about my "Zyklus Improvisor" patch (nb: an 8-track midi looper, but that’s just the basics, tracks influencing each other and other goodies are in the pipeline). I demoed Live for a couple of days, only focusing on the midi part, and was really disappointed. Too much of a hassle to do things the way I wanted and sometimes just not possible, as I found out on their forums. Surely, Live isn’t the answer to everything when it comes to looping.
Nope, it isn’t. I never said that either when I responded. I said that the things you listed can be done in Live and then I said if you want to make something that caters to your way of working and learn something in the process then you should make your own patch.
Just making sure I’m not getting lumped in with the guy from this thread, who seems to have a shitty attitude, just because I posted something remotely similar in that other thread.
The way I’m working is totally not important, but simply what I want can’t be done in Live. If Live had all (or most) of the answers I wouldn’t go into the trouble of making a fairly complex thing in Max. I would be crazy if that was the case, but I don’t think so ;)
Ableton Live doesn’t even do audio overdubbing.
Would be a mistake to call something like that a looper…
I too must admit that I’m working on a looper, simply because none of the
commercially available ones work like they should… ;)
Only on Max 4.6 so I can’t see what goes on in this example, but keep
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:48 PM, bronswerk
> The way I’m working is totally not important, but simply what I want can’t
> be done in Live. If Live had all (or most) of the answers I wouldn’t go into
> the trouble of making a fairly complex thing in Max. I would be crazy if
> that was the case, but I don’t think so ;)
> i also would appreciate tips for improvement.
first, I’d clean up the distinction between the presentation and
patching parts. Hit shift-cmd-i to open the patcher inspector and check
"open in presentation". Also remove all objects which slipped into
presentation which you don’t need there.
Add a sub patcher with instructions how to use that beast… (I’ll wait
with testing as I have no idea what it should do…;-)
Is there some inspiration from a hardware looper maybe? Just curious…
> time to create patches to do this when they exist already?
Com’n, this one didn’t exist yet, it seems you have a prejustice against
looping. Get to one of my concerts and tell me if you’d ever be able to
do such in Live. I certainly wouldn’t be able… ;-)
> Surely Max/MSP is to do stuff no-one does yet…
I’ve seen tons of looping patches, each and every was different and you
could say this hasn’t been done like that before…
> Anyway… aren’t there more imaginative things you could spend your
> time on?!
For sure its better you don’t waiste your time turning off people who
are proud, and right so, for what they created…
If you think your stuff is better, just share it as Simon did!
Sorry, but respect is the key to our community…
in other words:
every undergrad culturally-minded american female art student (and
some males) feels the need to make a Barbie-referenced work at some
point. would you stop them, merely because you’ve seen sixteen
million of them?
every max 1 student wants to do a synesthesia project. just because
we’ve seen sixteen million of them, are we going to stop?
making loopers and vj players are great exercises. don’t stop people
from making them, just because live can do it too!
would you stop a kid learning python or c++ from writing a calculator?
On Oct 8, 2008, at 10:34 AM, Gregory Taylor wrote:
> Anyone on this list who is kind enough to actually
> *share* the work they do here – either because they
> are "reporting" the assistance they’ve received from
> others (after searching the usual places and then
> bothering to ask detailed and intelligent questions
> that rise above the level of "Can you send me a
> patch that does what
> well, such things inform and may inspire others.
> While it may be so that beginners tend to aspire to
> some collection of minor variations on things that
> exist in the commercial software world already, to
> claim that anyone should simply use a commercially
> available program makes a variety of assumptions
> about the financial status of the maker, and also
> may be an unintended commentary on the imagination
> of the person who advises us that there’s only one
> way to do something and that some piece of software
> does that already.
> knowledge is not enough/science is not enough/Love is dreaming this
wow, i love this community. there i was feeling bad for schmonsky after godfrey’s post but now… i kinda feel bad for godfrey. well, not really.
hey, schmonsky, instead of a walkthrough or even on top of it, you could also put comments in your patch when you post it here. it might help people to go through it easier. but you were saying it’s not finished yet, so it’s all good either way. again, great work.
i’ m a bit surprised that simply posting a patch creates such a discussion.i thought that this forum is about sharing knowledge and asking things about programming Max/Msp.i owe a version of ableton live myself but i want to get into programming max/msp.
(can be fun!!!)shure a looper is not quiet an advanced task, but i thought i’ll better start with something simple than the other way round.still i find it curious that people waste their time insulting other people.why don’t they make their own discussion and don’t care about ‘stupid’ beginners.
…anyway there were also positive responses for which i’d like to thank so for.
ya, Simon, you’re right, it’s strange that some people bother to post negativity. makes you wonder why they don’t have more of a life. but just wanted to point out, not only were there also some positive posts but if you take a second look, you’ll see that a majority of the posts were positive and encouraging. so please take that as being more representative of this community. don’t mind the negativity: shit happens. you’re very much welcome here. and i’m willing to bet that if not a majority, then at least half of the user-base here would be interested in seeing different ways of achieving live-looping. Best of luck to you.
thank U RabidRaja…nice to meet you.
i’ll work a bit more on my patch and then post it again when i commented everything….
It is always great when someone wants to share a patch in this
Personally I have’nt seen the perfect MsxMSP Livelooper yet. I am
working on it (or trying to !!)
Ableton Live is only good for looping if you can live with a
predefined tempo a "guide loop" or click.
I you want to simulate, or even better extend the capabilities of
pedalloopers such as Lexicon JamMan og Boss RC-50 you have to create
one in MaxMSP.
Keep posting everyone !
Den 08/10/2008 kl. 16.48 skrev bronswerk:
> Funny, I had similar responses (use Live, don’t reinvent the wheel
> etc) about my "Zyklus Improvisor" patch (nb: an 8-track midi looper,
> but that’s just the basics, tracks influencing each other and other
> goodies are in the pipeline). I demoed Live for a couple of days,
> only focusing on the midi part, and was really disappointed. Too
> much of a hassle to do things the way I wanted and sometimes just
> not possible, as I found out on their forums. Surely, Live isn’t the
> answer to everything when it comes to looping.
Quote: firstname.lastname@example.org wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 11:58
> i’ m a bit surprised that simply posting a patch creates such a discussion.i thought that this forum is about sharing knowledge and asking things about programming Max/Msp.i owe a version of ableton live myself but i want to get into programming max/msp.
> (can be fun!!!)shure a looper is not quiet an advanced task, but i thought i’ll better start with something simple than the other way round.still i find it curious that people waste their time insulting other people.why don’t they make their own discussion and don’t care about ‘stupid’ beginners.
> …anyway there were also positive responses for which i’d like to thank so for.
Well I think it IS a big deal. It is about maintaining a positive
and respectful forum that encourages people to share their ideas.
Mr. Godfrey’s dismissive and negative attitude does not
reflect the general sentiment of this forum. We should always
support and encourage new Maxers to keep exploring and listening
to their creative impulses.
i’m seeing here a lot of people are developping or has developped a looper
i’ve actually developped one too which is more a sampler than a looper, does
not allow to load samples (a basic demo is here
and i was wondering what are the sensible points you faced (or are currently
facing) to realize such a patch.
- how do you sync your tracks? general audio clock, independant clocks,
- if you add some effects to the app, do you chain or parallel them?
- use of poly~, one track per poly~?
i’ll release the one i’ve done soon, it"s almost ready :)
2008/10/8 Anthony Palomba
> Quote: email@example.com wrote on Wed, 08 October 2008 11:58
> > i’ m a bit surprised that simply posting a patch creates such a
> discussion.i thought that this forum is about sharing knowledge and asking
> things about programming Max/Msp.i owe a version of ableton live myself but
> i want to get into programming max/msp.
> > (can be fun!!!)shure a looper is not quiet an advanced task, but i
> thought i’ll better start with something simple than the other way
> round.still i find it curious that people waste their time insulting other
> people.why don’t they make their own discussion and don’t care about
> ‘stupid’ beginners.
> > …anyway there were also positive responses for which i’d like to thank
> so for.
> Well I think it IS a big deal. It is about maintaining a positive
> and respectful forum that encourages people to share their ideas.
> Mr. Godfrey’s dismissive and negative attitude does not
> reflect the general sentiment of this forum. We should always
> support and encourage new Maxers to keep exploring and listening
> to their creative impulses.
Interesting. So it seems my red rag has attracted quite a few bulls.
Two general comments, and then some contextualisation. Firstly, my apologies that my exasperation expressed itself as an outburst directed against ‘Schmonsky’. Keep up your work – my comments are really derived from a wider perspective and should have been expressed that way. Secondly, it is to be noted that derisive criticism of simplistic programming problems on this forum is ubiquitous, without comeback, while criticism of musical outlook is apparently the result of a ‘bad attitude’.
Now the context. I have taught creative work at third level for many many years, and am actively engaged as a professional composer and specialist performer of new music. Stefan suggests I should share my work if I think it’s better: actually, I share it on an international stage already, and ‘better’ in this context is an opinion so subjective and style-dependent it’s not worth pursuing. My point is that I do not proceed from prejudice derived from an uninformed viewpoint.
We live in a culture of easy fixes. Microwave dinners mean you don’t have to learn to cook, GarageBand gives everyone a way to make music-by-numbers. Reason, Ableton and all the others of that ilk make it practical to make music by offering easy routes to the things that conventionally are done. The reason for this as a premise is obvious: people normally think in terms of convention. Ask a class of undergraduates to write a 2-minute piece in 2 minutes, and most will automatically begin by drawing a 5-line staff and a treble clef, despite the total impracticality of successfully completing the task with this starting point. Ask anyone in Western culture to improvise a rhythm, and it will almost always be in 4/4.
Here’s a specific, professional-level example: I attended the International Computer Music Conference in Belfast this year, and heard hundreds of computer-generated pieces. The vast majority were colourless montages of the same sounds and gestures. Mark Applebaum, who curated one of the concerts, wrote in his note for the programme that he’d had a serious problem choosing enough works because: "I found myself yearning for music… which is not bland, tedious, lethargic, conventional, or cynical…suggesting the most alarming and depressing consequence of a seemingly consolidated current common practice’ ". It was also notable that the tone of the conference was very much directed toward "how I did this/how we can do this", rather than the musical value of what was being done. Technology can – and does – mislead those who want to make music. (Some seemed surprised that posting on this forum received a comment about musical values: perhaps that says a lot.)
The advantages of much commercial software are easy to see – it can be extremely straightforward to create a track in the minimum time, because the software is optimised to do exactly this. This is extremely seductive: the lure of Reason means we live in an age of Reason (excuse terrible pun). There is a price to pay, of course, because the software is designed to do a narrow band of things (thus achieving its ease of use and high end-product quality), and this very restriction means a limit on one’s creativity, a limit that a user may not even be aware of.
Creativity is what this argument is all about. The software is just a tool. Thus what needs to be questioned is the *why* of doing what one is doing. Joshua asked whether I’d stop students doing something that I’d seen "sixteen million" times before: the answer is yes, of course I would. And I would spend as long as I could explaining why and offering ways to develop alternatives. Whenever we accept the conventional, whenever we fail to question our own creative outlook, we abrogate our rights as creative individuals.
And this is the root of what appears to be a prejudice against ‘looping’. Actually, it’s a rationally-derived decision to be suspicious of labels, wherever it’s possible, because the very label itself already entraps one’s thinking. This forum is packed with people asking how to make synths, samplers, drum machines, loop players et al. My problem here is not the technical issue of how to do these things – everyone needs to practice programming and they could function as the basis for further development – but the creativity of the very idea of doing it in the first place (note that I’m not directing my criticism at any one, specific, example). Of course, the old adage that there’s nothing new under the sun is mostly true: it is rare that one of us can escape our cultural heritage sufficiently to invent something never seen or heard before, but *you can try*. It should be clear now why I said Max ‘is to do stuff no-one does yet’: as software, like CSound, SuperCollider et al, it has fewer restrictions than most and thus fewer initial assumptions that shape thinking.
Gregory took what I said as an indication that I believed "there’s only one way to do something and that some piece of software does that already". Of course I don’t. There’s always room for development of a concept, and I’m delighted that my provocation produced responses concerning the original elements in the patch under discussion. I suspect no-one would’ve mentioned them if I hadn’t posted… How about greater discussion of those elements and a discourse on further possibilities?
I expect there’ll be lots of posts along the lines of "why can’t I do what I want?" now, perhaps along the lines of DF’s most literate response. If you want to ask that question, you can answer it for yourselves after consideration of this post, or you can come study with me and we’ll spend several years exploring it.
Very relaxing and good mood acoustic scape!
In any case i fiddled with your patch, its cool!
My premise is that i mainly use Max to do music, I cannot even dare to think myself as a Max "programmer" ad hoc, i wish i could!, but i cannot.
So my learning is mainly based on trial and error.
I confess! The new transport system is well, at best addictive.
I find it a great thing.
Plus you can still use all the old syncing tricks which many max users will know better than me (i still remember the pre sync~ MIDI sync "era").
I runned a naive test the other day, 32 metros running at different quant speeds synced to a tranposrt + a phasor which synced sync~ , plus Live in slave. Yes once in a while I had to fiddle with the midioffset of sync~, but to tell you the truth, I couldn
The Universe loops, and dispenses all
kinds of interesting lessons in terms
of generating and organizing variety
from simple materials. Seems as good a
place to start as anywhere.
That was a stirring defense of "quality,"
but I still will cast my pedagogical lot
with the lovely and humble women and men
who taught me and had the grace to be
patient with my thought that I knew better,
believing that I would learn best by seeing
for myself what I did not know. I bless
them (and their memory, in some cases) daily
for being encumbered by doubt and empathy.
> but i thought i’ll better start with something simple than the other
> way round.
That is a perfect strategy…
> still i find it curious that people waste their time insulting other
It is really rare though, it was the first time I got actually angry
when reading that (single) post. Usually I don’t care too much about
trolls which do show up from time to time… ;-)
Keep on going its worth it…
> We live in a culture of easy fixes. Microwave dinners mean you don’t
> have to learn to cook, GarageBand gives everyone a way to make
> music-by-numbers. Reason, Ableton and all the others of that ilk make
> it practical to make music by offering easy routes to the things
> that conventionally are done.
Exactly, but why would you discourage someone who actually is willing to
learn to cook, to not use the easy fix? You said you could do it in Live
why bother with Max… Listen to your own words…
> Ask anyone in Western culture to improvise a rhythm, and it will
> almost always be in 4/4.
I’d never look at the "almost always" but concentrate on those who
don’t. And if someone takes a challenge to get away from the "almost
always" I’d encourage and not discourage them. You can’t possibly expect
that a good (or bad) pop musician turns into a crazy experimentalist
within a day. How long did it take you to get away from classical music
or whatever your personal mainstream background might have been?
> The vast majority were colourless montages of the same sounds and
This seems to be a common problem in the academic world. But still there
are exceptions, and only those count, for these exceptions I also love
the academic world…
> Mark Applebaum, who curated one of the concerts, wrote in his note
> for the programme that he’d had a serious problem choosing enough
> works because: "I found myself yearning for music… which is not
> bland, tedious, lethargic, conventional, or cynical…suggesting the
> most alarming and depressing consequence of a seemingly consolidated
> current common practice’ ".
The problem there is, that the most interesting music doesn’t transport
well in a fixed medium. You have to see a performance… But applying
for a conference or festival is usually done with fixed media
recordings. Those who can polish a recording eventually have a lack in
other skills, and there is music which needs the moment at which it
comes into being live to be understood at all…
> It was also notable that the tone of the conference was very much
> directed toward "how I did this/how we can do this", rather than the
> musical value of what was being done. Technology can – and does –
> mislead those who want to make music. (Some seemed surprised that
> posting on this forum received a comment about musical values:
> perhaps that says a lot.)
That is the nature of the beast. Still the ICMC’s I attended where full
of discussions about music on a personal basis, though not necessarily
in the presentations… ;-)
> Creativity is what this argument is all about. The software is just a
> tool. Thus what needs to be questioned is the *why* of doing what
> one is doing. Joshua asked whether I’d stop students doing something
> that I’d seen "sixteen million" times before: the answer is yes, of
> course I would.
That means most of your students stop immediately being your students?
> And I would spend as long as I could explaining why and offering ways
> to develop alternatives.
There is nothing wrong with that, but there is no need to stop them. I’d
rather ask how to open them for new directions. Its better to start with
what they know and love already, and then show something different. To
stop them seems not a very effective method for me, but you might have
different experiences then I have…
> And this is the root of what appears to be a prejudice against
> ‘looping’. Actually, it’s a rationally-derived decision to be
> suspicious of labels, wherever it’s possible, because the very label
> itself already entraps one’s thinking.
Looping in my view, isn’t a label, as guitar music isn’t a label. Its a
sort of instrument, that’s all…!
> Of course, the old adage that there’s nothing new under the sun is
> mostly true: it is rare that one of us can escape our cultural
> heritage sufficiently to invent something never seen or heard before,
> but *you can try*.
This is rare in general, and it even isn’t a requirement for making good
music. And just trying isn’t enough, if you "just try" you failed
already, that is not a criterion for quality. Best example are the
pieces you didn’t like at the ICMC, I bet they all tried…
As you pointed out before, its not about the tool, its not about using
sequencers, loopers, samplers. All this doesn’t matter. Its about
> It should be clear now why I said Max ‘is to do stuff no-one does
> yet’: as software, like CSound, SuperCollider et al! , it has fewer
> restrictions than most and thus fewer initial assumptions that shape
It does make it easier to get rid of initial assumptions, but first you
have to be aware of them. Or you fall into the same trap, Actually for
you Max is for doing stuff no-one does, for others its just a tool…;-)
> Gregory took what I said as an indication that I believed "there’s
> only one way to do something and that some piece of software does
> that already". Of course I don’t. There’s always room for development
> of a concept, and I’m delighted that my provocation produced
> responses concerning the original elements in the patch under
It seem your initial assumption about that patch was that this is the
complete musical concept. But how could you tell if you didn’t hear a
single sound of music made with it?
It is as if you’d reject a cello because its an already known musical
Not that I would expect a masterpiece which could be done with a patch
like that in its initial state, but we all started somewhere and had to
do the first steps, you probably know it from your own experience…
> I suspect no-one would’ve mentioned them if I hadn’t posted… How
> about greater discussion of those elements and a discourse on further
Yes, please in a new thread, and no insults to innocent newcomers are
necessary to provoke, better provoke with your music…
To throw in some real music, go to http://www.carnyxscotland.co.uk/ to
listen to some improvisations I did with John Kenny recently in the
church of La Tourette (he also played in Belfast this year, so you might
have a memory of the real thing…).
I place my instrument, "Les Ondes Memorielles:, into the looping
Negative as positive comments are welcome, I am not in the beginning of
my explorations… ;-)
I am curious what you’ll come up with…
I’d love to see more links to real music…
Is there a direct link to the recordings? I could only find links to
CDs on the site.
On 10 Oct 2008, at 09:21, Stefan Tiedje wrote:
> To throw in some real music, go to http://www.carnyxscotland.co.uk/
> to listen to some improvisations I did with John Kenny recently
David Stevens schrieb:
> hi Stefan,
> Is there a direct link to the recordings? I could only find links to CDs
> on the site.
Its further down, a link called listen to WindSlaps…