Robin Price

Why does max issue noteoffs as note on messages with 0 velocity instead of sending proper note off messages ? Not all hardware synths understand 0 velocity messages as note off (like my jomox drum machine).

I know I can just stick something between midiformat and midiout to get the bytes the way I want them but I'm interested why max opted for this weird option and if cyclin would ever be convinced to change it.

This isn't a max bashing thread just interested to see if anyone else thinks this is weird too.

Why does max issue noteoffs as note on messages with 0 velocity instead of sending proper note off messages ? Not all hardware synths understand 0 velocity messages as note off (like my jomox drum machine). 

144 60 0 (note off middle c in max)
128 60 0 (proper note off message)

This isn't a max bashing thread just interested to see if anyone else thinks this is weird too.


makenote-and-proper-note-off-messages

Your Jomox drum machine, like most other drum computers, doesn't need note offs. drum computers work with note offs almost never.

Your Jomox drum machine, like most other drum computers, doesn't  need note offs. drum computers work with note offs almost never.

You're wrong. My jomox eventually hangs if it doesn't get note off messages. My x0xb0x is the same. Anyway your post doesn't answer the question so why even weigh in on the issue.

my understanding is that the noteoff message has been deprecated for 

you could fake it with borax and midiout, i suppose.

On Nov 12, 2008, at 4:51 PM, crx091081gb wrote:

> You're wrong. My jomox eventually hangs if it doesn't get note off 

> messages. My x0xb0x is the same. Anyway your post doesn't answer the 

> question so why even weigh in on the issue.

my understanding is that the noteoff message has been deprecated for  
decades.

>
> You're wrong. My jomox eventually hangs if it doesn't get note off  
> messages. My x0xb0x is the same. Anyway your post doesn't answer the  
> question so why even weigh in on the issue.


> Anyway your post doesn't answer the question so why even weigh 

You must have gotten something wrong. No problem. My two Xbase 09 do neither read nor send note offs. Note offs are not deprecated, they just never were used for drum machines.

> Anyway your post doesn't answer the question so why even weigh 
> in on the issue.

> Note offs are not deprecated, they just never were used for 

> Note offs are not deprecated, they just never were used for 
> drum machines.

Sorry jayrope I didn't mean to sound rude, however my xbase 09 never worked with max's midi out till I fiddled the midi out to send midi note offs with the starting byte 128. It would play the first couple of notes and then stop. I only sorted it when I used midi-ox to analyse the difference between ableton's midi which worked fine and max's. I haven't looked at the midi that the unit sends out.

My x0xb0x is the same, I hook a metro up to makenote and noteout and only every so many notes get played, loads get missed.

I'd heard that midi note off wasn't used on channel 10, and that drum machines didn't use them too but either way it isn't really relevant. I started the thread to try and find out why max sends non-standard midi out messages. I've just made a patch to illustrate what I'm talking about.

Sorry jayrope I didn't mean to sound rude, however my xbase 09 never worked with max's midi out till I fiddled the midi out to send midi note offs with the starting byte 128. It would play the first couple of notes and then stop. I only sorted it when I used midi-ox to analyse the difference between ableton's midi which worked fine and max's. I haven't looked at the midi that the unit sends out. 

My x0xb0x is the same, I hook a metro up to makenote and noteout and only every so many notes get played, loads get missed. 

Quote: rob_does_the_nam@hotmail.com wrote on Thu, 13 November 2008 10:35

----------------------------------------------------

> Why does max issue noteoffs as note on messages with 0 velocity 

> instead of sending proper note off messages ?

The MIDI specification allows for both true note-offs and note-on velocity 0. The latter became more common very early, as it allows running status to be used, saving MIDI bandwidth and reducing latency for chords (at the expense of true note-off velocity).

Any hardware that does not handle both is simply not compliant with the MIDI spec.

Is it possible that your MIDI interface/driver is doing something funky?

Quote: rob_does_the_nam@hotmail.com wrote on Thu, 13 November 2008 10:35
----------------------------------------------------
> Why does max issue noteoffs as note on messages with 0 velocity 
> instead of sending proper note off messages ?

Is it possible that your MIDI interface/driver is doing something funky?


On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:35 PM, crx091081gb wrote:

> Not all hardware synths understand 0 velocity messages as note off 

It's part of the MIDI spec, and has been pretty much since the dawn of 

time. Every synth I've ever laid my hands on understands it. Are you 

> Not all hardware synths understand 0 velocity messages as note off  
> (like my jomox drum machine).

It's part of the MIDI spec, and has been pretty much since the dawn of  
time. Every synth I've ever laid my hands on understands it. Are you  
sure that's really the issue?

Chris Muir
cbm@well.com	
http://www.xfade.com

Cheers John, what you said is relevant to my interests.

I suspect the jomox and the x0xb0x are not implementing the midi spec properly, the x0xb0x is homebrew (but awesome) and the jomox smells like it (the midi implentation is kind of ratty at the best of times, send it too many cc's and it skips notes). I'll check the byte output of the midi card when I get my arduino to do midi readback over usb.

What I'd really like is an attribute for midiformat that allowed true note offs to be sent.

Chris, if it wasn't the issue why would the jomox and the x0xb0x work when I send proper note off messages but not the rest of the time? My JV-1080 and Waldorf Pulse both work fine with Max's output so I suspect the synths are not implementing velocity 0 as note off properly.

a jv 1080 isnot a drum achine. any drum machine deosnt need a note off but just a note on, since i only neds a trigger fro teh start of the sound, then running to it's end on its own.

that of course is different with synths playing drum sounds.

just check jomox.de for the drum machine's midi spex to get a grasp on the specialties then. agreed: jomos is not standard-compliant fully, but nevertheless it's also not behaving usually.

a jv 1080 isnot a drum achine. any drum machine deosnt need a note off but just a note on, since i only neds a trigger fro teh start of the sound, then running to it's end on its own.
that of course is different with synths playing drum sounds.

just check jomox.de for the drum machine's midi spex to get a grasp on the specialties then. agreed: jomos is not standard-compliant fully, but nevertheless it's also not behaving usually.


On Nov 12, 2008, at 4:04 PM, crx091081gb wrote:

> Chris, if it wasn't the issue why would the jomox and the x0xb0x 

> work when I send proper note off messages but not the rest of the 

> time? My JV-1080 and Waldorf Pulse both work fine with Max's output 

> so I suspect the synths are not implementing velocity 0 as note off 

Well, if they don't deal with Velo 0 as note off, they are seriously 

out of spec. The MIDI spec says that the note-off message and the note- 

on message w/ velo=0 are to be treated the same.

You might want to create an abstraction that takes the output of 

makenote, and sends what your machines need.

> Chris, if it wasn't the issue why would the jomox and the x0xb0x  
> work when I send proper note off messages but not the rest of the  
> time? My JV-1080 and Waldorf Pulse both work fine with Max's output  
> so I suspect the synths are not implementing velocity 0 as note off  
> properly.

Well, if they don't deal with Velo 0 as note off, they are seriously  
out of spec. The MIDI spec says that the note-off message and the note- 
on message w/ velo=0 are to be treated the same.

You might want to create an abstraction that takes the output of  
makenote, and sends what your machines need.

On 13 nov. 08, at 00:41, Chris Muir wrote:

> On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:35 PM, crx091081gb wrote:

>> Not all hardware synths understand 0 velocity messages as note off 

> It's part of the MIDI spec, and has been pretty much since the dawn 

> of time. Every synth I've ever laid my hands on understands it. Are 

The 'proper' noteoff message allow to use a noteoff velocity. There is 

a [xnoteout] object in Max to deal with 'proper' noteofF.

Centre de Recherches et de Formation Musicales de Wallonie asbl

> On Nov 12, 2008, at 1:35 PM, crx091081gb wrote:
>
>> Not all hardware synths understand 0 velocity messages as note off  
>> (like my jomox drum machine).
>
> It's part of the MIDI spec, and has been pretty much since the dawn  
> of time. Every synth I've ever laid my hands on understands it. Are  
> you sure that's really the issue?

The 'proper' noteoff message allow to use a noteoff velocity. There is  
a [xnoteout] object in Max to deal with 'proper' noteofF.
_____________________________
Patrick Delges

Centre de Recherches et de Formation Musicales de Wallonie asbl
http://www.crfmw.be/max


Cheers Patrick, now that's what I'm looking for.

> Why does max issue noteoffs as note on messages with 0 velocity

> instead of sending proper note off messages ? Not all hardware synths

> understand 0 velocity messages as note off (like my jomox drum

Then your jomox does not follow the rules, it has to accept noteon 0 as 

noteoff. Almost all keyboards only send noteon 0 as noteoff. The only 

exception are keyboards which allow noteoff velocity to be sent. This is 

> 144 60 0 (note off middle c in max) 128 60 0 (proper note off

Anything between 128 60 0 and 128 60 127 as well as 144 60 0 is a proper 

> This isn't a max bashing thread just interested to see if anyone else

It is indeed weird, that jomox doesn't understand proper note off 

values. Actually I don't believe it, they wouldn't sell a single unit, 

its more likely that you have some bugs in your setup/patch...

crx091081gb schrieb:
> Why does max issue noteoffs as note on messages with 0 velocity
> instead of sending proper note off messages ? Not all hardware synths
> understand 0 velocity messages as note off (like my jomox drum
> machine).

Then your jomox does not follow the rules, it has to accept noteon 0 as 
noteoff. Almost all keyboards only send noteon 0 as noteoff. The only 
exception are keyboards which allow noteoff velocity to be sent. This is 
VERY rare unfortunately...

> 144 60 0 (note off middle c in max) 128 60 0 (proper note off
> message)

Anything between 128 60 0 and 128 60 127 as well as 144 60 0 is a proper 
note off message.

> This isn't a max bashing thread just interested to see if anyone else
> thinks this is weird too.

It is indeed weird, that jomox doesn't understand proper note off 
values. Actually I don't believe it, they wouldn't sell a single unit, 
its more likely that you have some bugs in your setup/patch...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


The ‘proper’ noteoff message allow to use a noteoff velocity. There is

a [xnoteout] object in Max to deal with ‘proper’ noteofF.

this solved an issue with a serial to midi patch i'm creating in max for live with an arduino as the input.

[makenote] was triggering samples in a drumrack in the release stage when pitch messages with 0 velocity were used for a noteoff function, double triggering each sample.

ancient post, but solved my issue - xnote objects definitely have their place. cheers.

The ‘proper’ noteoff message allow to use a noteoff velocity. There is
a [xnoteout] object in Max to deal with ‘proper’ noteofF.

ancient post, but solved my issue - xnote objects definitely have their place. cheers.


makenote and 'proper' note off messages