Tom Haig

I was just wondering if I could through a question out?

Shortly I will be graduating from university in London, on my sound art and design BA course. Whereas I'm no whizz on Max, and regularly come crying for help, I think my max msp knowledge is one of my strengths. I am very keen to look for work in an appropriate field when I leave university, and I was wondering if anyone here uses max as part of their job? If so, what do you do?

I would really appreciate any info / pointers!

hi everyone,
I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
Shortly I will be graduating from university in London, on my sound art and design BA course.  Whereas I'm no whizz on Max, and regularly come crying for help, I think my max msp knowledge is one of my strengths.  I am very keen to look for work in an appropriate field when I leave university, and I was wondering if anyone here uses max as part of their job? If so, what do you do?
I would really appreciate any info / pointers!
Thank you very much
Tom


making-maxmsp-your-livlihood

Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49

----------------------------------------------------

> I was just wondering if I could through a question out?

> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,

To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job offers listed in the Guardian every week.

What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give you an idea of the variety of things I do.

It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.

Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
----------------------------------------------------
> I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,

 ----------------------------------------------------

To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job offers listed in the Guardian every week. 

What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give you an idea of the variety of things I do. 

It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.


Is there what you would call a going rate for that kind of work? I do

not want to be as impolite to ask you what you charge, but I feel like

if I decide to do a job like this for someone that I wouldn't know

> Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49

> ----------------------------------------------------

> > I was just wondering if I could through a question out?

> > Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,

> (Sorry, Lynne Truss made be write that.)

> To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job offers listed in the Guardian every week.

> What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give you an idea of the variety of things I do.

> It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.

> Peter Castine +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter

> iCE: Sequencing, Recording & Interface Building for Max/MSP Extremely cool 

Is there what you would call a going rate for that kind of work?  I do
not want to be as impolite to ask you what you charge, but I feel like
if I decide to do a job like this for someone that I wouldn't know
what to charge.  Max union?

On 5/3/07, Peter Castine  wrote:
>
> Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
> ----------------------------------------------------
> > I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> > Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,
>
> Would that be Walden College? 
>
> (Sorry, Lynne Truss made be write that.)
>
>  ----------------------------------------------------
>
> To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job offers listed in the Guardian every week.
>
> What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give you an idea of the variety of things I do.
>
> It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.
> --
> --------------    http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/    -------------
> Peter Castine             +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
>
> iCE:  Sequencing,  Recording & Interface  Building  for Max/MSP   Extremely cool   http://www.dspaudio.com/
>
>


> Is there what you would call a going rate for that kind of work? I do

> not want to be as impolite to ask you what you charge, but I feel like

> if I decide to do a job like this for someone that I wouldn't know

I don't know about Peter, can just speak for myselfe: since most 

projects that need a Max programmer are not commercial projects but art 

projects I usually get paid a fixed sum for the project. So the per hour 

rate that you could calculate from this differs a lot depending on how 

complex a project turns out to be. You have to be really good in 

estimating how long it will take you in order to earn more than just a 

If you want to earn big money learn database programming or these kind 

of things. - Hhm, this must sound really negative. - If you feel you 

really want to do it, do it! But it's really hard to find jobs in the 

beginning when nobody knows you. And even if people know you, I have a 

feeling there aren't that many Max projects that have the money to 

seriously pay a programmer. I usually do 2 or 3 Max related projects a 

year (plus some more were I don't get paid at all) and earn the money 

other people would earn in 1 or 2 month. So it needs a lot of extra taxi 

>> Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49

>> ----------------------------------------------------

>> > I was just wondering if I could through a question out?

>> > Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,

>> (Sorry, Lynne Truss made be write that.)

>> To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my 

>> livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related 

>> programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job 

>> offers listed in the Guardian every week.

>> What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with 

>> Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number 

>> of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche 

>> with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give 

>> you an idea of the variety of things I do.

>> It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.

>> Peter Castine +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter

>> iCE: Sequencing, Recording & Interface Building for Max/MSP 

keith manlove wrote:
> Is there what you would call a going rate for that kind of work?  I do
> not want to be as impolite to ask you what you charge, but I feel like
> if I decide to do a job like this for someone that I wouldn't know
> what to charge.  Max union?

I don't know about Peter, can just speak for myselfe: since most 
projects that need a Max programmer are not commercial projects but art 
projects I usually get paid a fixed sum for the project. So the per hour 
rate that you could calculate from this differs a lot depending on how 
complex a project turns out to be. You have to be really good in 
estimating how long it will take you in order to earn more than just a 
symbolic compensation for your work.
If you want to earn big money learn database programming or these kind 
of things. - Hhm, this must sound really negative. - If you feel you 
really want to do it, do it! But it's really hard to find jobs in the 
beginning when nobody knows you. And even if people know you, I have a 
feeling there aren't that many Max projects that have the money to 
seriously pay a programmer. I usually do 2 or 3 Max related projects a 
year (plus some more were I don't get paid at all) and earn the money 
other people would earn in 1 or 2 month. So it needs a lot of extra taxi 
driving or whatever to survive.

> On 5/3/07, Peter Castine  wrote:
>>
>> Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> > I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
>> > Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,
>>
>> Would that be Walden College? 
>>
>>
>> (Sorry, Lynne Truss made be write that.)
>>
>>  ----------------------------------------------------
>>
>> To the main question: I currently earn the lion's share of my 
>> livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related 
>> programming. Let me put it this way: it's not as if there are job 
>> offers listed in the Guardian every week.
>>
>> What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with 
>> Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number 
>> of other software and hardware products. I've also carved out a niche 
>> with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give 
>> you an idea of the variety of things I do.
>>
>> It can be done but don't expect a rose garden.
>> -- 
>> --------------    http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/    -------------
>> Peter Castine             +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
>>
>> iCE:  Sequencing,  Recording & Interface  Building  for Max/MSP   
>> Extremely cool   http://www.dspaudio.com/
>>
>>
>


Although there are plenty of programmers out there who are specialized at coding alone, I still feel that programming is a tool, and not a job.

The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do. As an example: most of the programs used in aerospace projects are written by aerospace engineers, not trained programmers. Max/MSP is pretty useless without the music its users hope to create, and wouldn't be necessary if those users don't want to do something they can't do in another way.

That said, it must be obvious that I think the primary strength of a Max/MSP programmer is his or her understanding of and connection to music.

Personally, things have developed this way for me: I continue to get hired for the same sort of composing and performing jobs that I always have, but now that I use Max/MSP, I have a tremendous tool for creative expression which I now wonder how I ever did without. Even when I get hired to do something purely in the realm of programming, the person hiring me could care less about what I use to get the job done, as long as it works for the project. The sorts of projects I do (usually coproductions with state-supported theaters) generally pay a predefined amount which is reflected in the budget-proposal of the person submitting the project. It is seldom much money; a good monthly wage, but doesn't pay for the months between projects. I get more per hour by performing, but spend alot of time hoping that performances will sell. Workshops are another good form of income. All of my recent workshops involved Max/MSP, but the subjects of the workshops were not the language, but a specifc aspect of what could be done with it.

Although there are plenty of programmers out there who are specialized at coding alone, I still feel that programming is a tool, and not a job.
The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do.  As an example: most of the programs used in aerospace projects are written by aerospace engineers, not trained programmers.  Max/MSP is pretty useless without the music its users hope to create, and wouldn't be necessary if those users don't want to do something they can't do in another way.
That said, it must be obvious that I think the primary strength of a Max/MSP programmer is his or her understanding of and connection to music.

Personally, things have developed this way for me: I continue to get hired for the same sort of composing and performing jobs that I always have, but now that I use Max/MSP, I have a tremendous tool for creative expression which I now wonder how I ever did without.  Even when I get hired to do something purely in the realm of programming, the person hiring me could care less about what I use to get the job done, as long as it works for the project.  The sorts of projects I do (usually coproductions with state-supported theaters) generally pay a predefined amount which is reflected in the budget-proposal of the person submitting the project.  It is seldom much money; a good monthly wage, but doesn't pay for the months between projects. I get more per hour by performing, but spend alot of time hoping that performances will sell.  Workshops are another good form of income.  All of my recent workshops involved Max/MSP, but the subjects of the workshops were not the language, but a specifc aspect of what could be done with it.

> All of my recent workshops involved Max/MSP, but the subjects of 

> the workshops were not the language, but a specifc aspect of what 

I completely agree with this point of view. A tool is a tool is a 

tool. If you become a meta-user more than a super-user, going from 

an artistic goal to its rendition through the most simple and elegant 

mean (which these days is really often implying the Max/MSP/Jitter/ 

Pluggo suite, but not exclusively) you will improve your art 

independently of tool trends and fashion. Otherwise, you will be 

stuck like most power users when the tool they master become obsolete.

ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is 

interested, I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns in 

> All of my recent workshops involved Max/MSP, but the subjects of  
> the workshops were not the language, but a specifc aspect of what  
> could be done with it.

I completely agree with this point of view.  A tool is a tool is a  
tool.  If you become a meta-user more than a super-user, going from  
an artistic goal to its rendition through the most simple and elegant  
mean (which these days is really often implying the Max/MSP/Jitter/ 
Pluggo suite, but not exclusively) you will improve your art  
independently of tool trends and fashion.  Otherwise, you will be  
stuck like most power users when the tool they master become obsolete.

ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is  
interested, I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns in  
mixed music...


> I completely agree with this point of view. A tool is a tool is a 

> tool. If you become a meta-user more than a super-user, going from an 

> artistic goal to its rendition through the most simple and elegant mean 

> (which these days is really often implying the Max/MSP/Jitter/Pluggo 

> suite, but not exclusively) you will improve your art independently of 

I can't agree with you here, because I don't think that an 'artistic 

goal' will ever remain completely unchanged through our exposure to and 

relationship with the means used to bring it about. Simplicity and 

elegance, for example, represent a particular, value-laden, approach to 

bringing something about (vs., say, quick n' dirty) and the process of 

pursuing this approach is quite likely to impact on the original idea in 

some more or less substantive way. IOW, when all you have is a hammer...

> ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is interested, 

> I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns in mixed music...

Shame to miss that, but people keep leaving oceans lying all over the 

place. Will you be giving the talk in the UK at some point, if you 

Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> I completely agree with this point of view.  A tool is a tool is a 
> tool.  If you become a meta-user more than a super-user, going from an 
> artistic goal to its rendition through the most simple and elegant mean 
> (which these days is really often implying the Max/MSP/Jitter/Pluggo 
> suite, but not exclusively) you will improve your art independently of 
> tool trends and fashion.  

I can't agree with you here, because I don't think that an 'artistic 
goal' will ever remain completely unchanged through our exposure to and 
relationship with the means used to bring it about. Simplicity and 
elegance, for example, represent a particular, value-laden, approach to 
bringing something about (vs., say, quick n' dirty) and the process of 
pursuing this approach is quite likely to impact on the original idea in 
some more or less substantive way. IOW, when all you have is a hammer...

> ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is interested, 
> I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns in mixed music...

Shame to miss that, but people keep leaving oceans lying all over the 
place. Will you be giving the talk in the UK at some point, if you 
haven't already?

At the moment our company develops an elaborate piece of software in max/msp. We're funded by the government and an audiovisual artist (eboman). As a lead programmer of the company, projects like these have been my full time occupation for the past two years or so.

Must say that from what I hear it is not common to use max as a full-blown programming language like we do. ;)

> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London, on my sound art and design BA course. Whereas I'm no whizz on Max, and regularly come crying for help, I think my max msp knowledge is one of my strengths. I am very keen to look for work in an appropriate field when I leave university, and I was wondering if anyone here uses max as part of their job? If so, what do you do?

> I would really appreciate any info / pointers!

Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
----------------------------------------------------
> hi everyone,
> I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London, on my sound art and design BA course.  Whereas I'm no whizz on Max, and regularly come crying for help, I think my max msp knowledge is one of my strengths.  I am very keen to look for work in an appropriate field when I leave university, and I was wondering if anyone here uses max as part of their job? If so, what do you do?
> I would really appreciate any info / pointers!
> Thank you very much
> Tom
----------------------------------------------------


I would be interested if some of you who responded to this thread would consider doing occasional consulting.

I'm just venturing into this computer-music space. I have lots of ideas, but not much time to come up learning curves to figure out how to create patches that do what I have in mind.

I'm considering using Max/MSP as a host environment for my music . I'm going to download the trial ver. and go through the tutorials. But I'm sure I'll need help from time to time. For example, if I run into difficulting trying to create a patch to do what I want, I wouldn't mind paying someone for their expertise to help me. Or, paying someone for a patch that they designed which does a particular effect. Or, helping me get up the learning curve faster by answering questions.

Being new to this community, I don't know if this is common practice. I value the expertise that people have developed I think its fair to compensate them. My resources are limited but if you are interested in a possible occasional consulting, let me know offline: empyrean @ oregon.com. 

I would be interested if some of you who responded to this thread would consider doing occasional consulting.  

I'm just venturing into this computer-music space. I have lots of ideas, but not much time to come up learning curves to figure out how to create patches that do what I have in mind.  

I'm considering using Max/MSP as a host environment for my music . I'm going to download the trial ver. and go through the tutorials.   But I'm sure I'll need help from time to time. For example, if I run into difficulting trying to create a patch to do what I want, I wouldn't mind paying someone for their expertise to help me.   Or, paying someone for a patch that they designed which does a particular effect.  Or, helping me get up the learning curve faster by answering questions.

Being new to this community, I don't know if this is common practice.  I value the expertise that people have developed I think its fair to compensate them.  My resources are limited but if you are interested in a possible occasional consulting, let me know offline:  empyrean @ oregon.com.     


> The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to 

> have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do.

Actually, I think the biggest challenge is to have an understanding 

of what the client wants/needs. Everything else follows from that.

I'm often asked if (or how) I make a living from Max/MSP, and the 

answer tends to be slightly different each time, but there's almost 

always something Max-related going on, from composition and 

performance through writing and teaching through to infrastructure 

for arts projects. I think the key to freelancing in this area is to 

be versatile, and to constantly pick up new technologies and 

techniques. It's good to specialise, but only if you can specialise 

(In my current thread of Max work, I've managed to incorporate the 

Spring Framework into MXJ; this is because I have a little project to 

bring back a feature thrown away after Max 3. I'll say no more at 

this stage, although I fully expect Peter C. to guess what it is.)

> The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to  
> have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do.

Actually, I think the biggest challenge is to have an understanding  
of what the client wants/needs. Everything else follows from that.

I'm often asked if (or how) I make a living from Max/MSP, and the  
answer tends to be slightly different each time, but there's almost  
always something Max-related going on, from composition and  
performance through writing and teaching through to infrastructure  
for arts projects. I think the key to freelancing in this area is to  
be versatile, and to constantly pick up new technologies and  
techniques. It's good to specialise, but only if you can specialise  
in lots of things at the same time...

(In my current thread of Max work, I've managed to incorporate the  
Spring Framework into MXJ; this is because I have a little project to  
bring back a feature thrown away after Max 3. I'll say no more at  
this stage, although I fully expect Peter C. to guess what it is.)

Nick Rothwell / Cassiel.com Limited
www.cassiel.com
www.myspace.com/cassieldotcom
www.loadbang.net


I will echo, as others have, that Max is a tool.

I would say that while it is possible to make it a large part of your 

income, etc, via Max consulting, what you really want to be doing is 

getting involved in areas where Max could be an avenue to realize your 

goal. Maybe this is confusing, but the idea is not to walk into the 

job market thinking "I'm going to be a Max/MSP programmer" but rather 

think in terms of goals rather than solutions...i.e. "I want to get 

involved in interactive performance" or "I want to develop 

spatialization tools." It might just turn out that Max is the best way 

to achieve those goals when the time comes.

And I know not if, save in this, such gift be allowed to man,

That out of three sounds he frame, not a fourth sound, but a star.

I would say that while it is possible to make it a large part of your 
income, etc,  via Max consulting, what you really want to be doing is 
getting involved in areas where Max  could be an avenue to realize your 
goal.   Maybe this is confusing, but the idea is not to walk into the 
job market thinking "I'm going to be a Max/MSP programmer" but rather 
think in terms of goals rather than solutions...i.e. "I want to get 
involved in interactive performance" or "I want to develop 
spatialization tools."  It might just turn out that Max is the best way 
to achieve those goals when the time comes.

register wrote:
> hi everyone,
> I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London, on my sound art and design BA course.  Whereas I'm no whizz on Max, and regularly come crying for help, I think my max msp knowledge is one of my strengths.  I am very keen to look for work in an appropriate field when I leave university, and I was wondering if anyone here uses max as part of their job? If so, what do you do?
> I would really appreciate any info / pointers!
> Thank you very much
> Tom
>

-- 
barry threw
composition : sound : programming
http://www.barrythrew.com
bthrew(at)gmail(dot)com
857-544-3967

And I know not if, save in this, such gift be allowed to man,
That out of three sounds he frame, not a fourth sound, but a star.
-Robert Browning


Quote: nick rothwell / cassiel wrote on Fri, 04 May 2007 14:11

> > The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to 

> > have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do.

> Actually, I think the biggest challenge is to have an understanding 

> of what the client wants/needs. Everything else follows from that.

This is probably the best advice you can give any programmer. Despite any knowledge to the contrary, the teamwork is the key. Good point.

Quote: nick rothwell / cassiel wrote on Fri, 04 May 2007 14:11
> > The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to  
> > have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do.
>
> Actually, I think the biggest challenge is to have an understanding  
> of what the client wants/needs. Everything else follows from that.

Definitely; I hear you on that one!
This is probably the best advice you can give any programmer. Despite any knowledge to the contrary, the teamwork is the key. Good point.


Dear Owen (and any other thread follower ;-)

> I can't agree with you here, because I don't think that an 

> 'artistic goal' will ever remain completely unchanged through our 

> exposure to and relationship with the means used to bring it about.

I have not said the oposite of this at all! I just mean that we 

should stay focused on the art. Obviously, the tool that you are 

using at a given time will influence your way of thinking, and that 

is why I try to learn a new language every now and then: to question 

> Simplicity and elegance, for example, represent a particular, value- 

> laden, approach to bringing something about (vs., say, quick n' dirty)

I think that quick and dirty can be the simplest way sometimes, so 

they are not in opposition. I just mean that it is useful to put the 

patch in perspective, as a mean to an end, and to assess the work 

from a listener's perspective... I have heard to many concerts when 

the patch is cool but the music is boring!

>> ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is 

>> interested, I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns 

> Shame to miss that, but people keep leaving oceans lying all over 

> Will you be giving the talk in the UK at some point, if you haven't 

You can ask your supervisor to invite me (Hi, Laurie ;-) I'm living 

in Huddersfield now, so my students do suffer that kind of spiel a lot!

> I can't agree with you here, because I don't think that an  
> 'artistic goal' will ever remain completely unchanged through our  
> exposure to and relationship with the means used to bring it about.

I have not said the oposite of this at all!  I just mean that we  
should stay focused on the art.  Obviously, the tool that you are  
using at a given time will influence your way of thinking, and that  
is why I try to learn a new language every now and then: to question  
the habits.

> Simplicity and elegance, for example, represent a particular, value- 
> laden, approach to bringing something about (vs., say, quick n' dirty)

I think that quick and dirty can be the simplest way sometimes, so  
they are not in opposition.  I just mean that it is useful to put the  
patch in perspective, as a mean to an end, and to assess the work  
from a listener's perspective... I have heard to many concerts when  
the patch is cool but the music is boring!

>> ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is  
>> interested, I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns  
>> in mixed music...
>
> Shame to miss that, but people keep leaving oceans lying all over  
> the place.

> Will you be giving the talk in the UK at some point, if you haven't  
> already?

You can ask your supervisor to invite me (Hi, Laurie ;-)  I'm living  
in Huddersfield now, so my students do suffer that kind of spiel a lot!

Quote: tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Sun, 06 May 2007 01:16

> from a listener's perspective... I have heard to many concerts when 

> the patch is cool but the music is boring!

To be honest I haven't yet looked but, it would nice to listen to a bunch of different music made by Max users - without seeing their patch.

Not a challenge but is there a place to upload/listen to maxmusic.

Quote: tremblap@gmail.com wrote on Sun, 06 May 2007 01:16
----------------------------------------------------

Making Max/MSP your livlihood?