Would that be Walden College? < http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/1992/db920503.gif>

I don’t know about Peter, can just speak for myselfe: since most
projects that need a Max programmer are not commercial projects but art
projects I usually get paid a fixed sum for the project. So the per hour
rate that you could calculate from this differs a lot depending on how
complex a project turns out to be. You have to be really good in
estimating how long it will take you in order to earn more than just a
symbolic compensation for your work.
If you want to earn big money learn database programming or these kind
of things. – Hhm, this must sound really negative. – If you feel you
really want to do it, do it! But it’s really hard to find jobs in the
beginning when nobody knows you. And even if people know you, I have a
feeling there aren’t that many Max projects that have the money to
seriously pay a programmer. I usually do 2 or 3 Max related projects a
year (plus some more were I don’t get paid at all) and earn the money
other people would earn in 1 or 2 month. So it needs a lot of extra taxi
driving or whatever to survive.

good luck,
Olaf

> On 5/3/07, Peter Castine wrote:
>>
>> Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
>> —————————————————-
>> > I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
>> > Shortly I will be graduating from university in London,
>>
>> Would that be Walden College?
>> < http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/1992/db920503.gif>
>>
>> (Sorry, Lynne Truss made be write that.)
>>
>> —————————————————-
>>
>> To the main question: I currently earn the lion’s share of my
>> livlihood through Max/MSP and other music software-related
>> programming. Let me put it this way: it’s not as if there are job
>> offers listed in the Guardian every week.
>>
>> What do I do? Custom programming for clients who need it, with
>> Max/MSP/Jitter patches, C/C++ development, interfacing with any number
>> of other software and hardware products. I’ve also carved out a niche
>> with products like Litter Power and iCE Tools. My Web site may give
>> you an idea of the variety of things I do.
>>
>> It can be done but don’t expect a rose garden.
>> —
>> ————– http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/ ————-
>> Peter Castine +–> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter
>>
>> iCE: Sequencing, Recording & Interface Building for Max/MSP
>> Extremely cool http://www.dspaudio.com/
>>
>>
>

Personally, things have developed this way for me: I continue to get hired for the same sort of composing and performing jobs that I always have, but now that I use Max/MSP, I have a tremendous tool for creative expression which I now wonder how I ever did without. Even when I get hired to do something purely in the realm of programming, the person hiring me could care less about what I use to get the job done, as long as it works for the project. The sorts of projects I do (usually coproductions with state-supported theaters) generally pay a predefined amount which is reflected in the budget-proposal of the person submitting the project. It is seldom much money; a good monthly wage, but doesn’t pay for the months between projects. I get more per hour by performing, but spend alot of time hoping that performances will sell. Workshops are another good form of income. All of my recent workshops involved Max/MSP, but the subjects of the workshops were not the language, but a specifc aspect of what could be done with it.

Hope this helps.

I completely agree with this point of view. A tool is a tool is a
tool. If you become a meta-user more than a super-user, going from
an artistic goal to its rendition through the most simple and elegant
mean (which these days is really often implying the Max/MSP/Jitter/
Pluggo suite, but not exclusively) you will improve your art
independently of tool trends and fashion. Otherwise, you will be
stuck like most power users when the tool they master become obsolete.

My 2 cents

pa

ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is
interested, I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns in
mixed music…

Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> I completely agree with this point of view. A tool is a tool is a
> tool. If you become a meta-user more than a super-user, going from an
> artistic goal to its rendition through the most simple and elegant mean
> (which these days is really often implying the Max/MSP/Jitter/Pluggo
> suite, but not exclusively) you will improve your art independently of
> tool trends and fashion.

I can’t agree with you here, because I don’t think that an ‘artistic
goal’ will ever remain completely unchanged through our exposure to and
relationship with the means used to bring it about. Simplicity and
elegance, for example, represent a particular, value-laden, approach to
bringing something about (vs., say, quick n’ dirty) and the process of
pursuing this approach is quite likely to impact on the original idea in
some more or less substantive way. IOW, when all you have is a hammer…

> ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is interested,
> I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns in mixed music…

Shame to miss that, but people keep leaving oceans lying all over the
place. Will you be giving the talk in the UK at some point, if you
haven’t already?

–
Owen

Must say that from what I hear it is not common to use max as a full-blown programming language like we do. ;)

Mattijs

Quote: Tom Haig wrote on Thu, 03 May 2007 22:49
—————————————————-
> hi everyone,
> I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London, on my sound art and design BA course. Whereas I’m no whizz on Max, and regularly come crying for help, I think my max msp knowledge is one of my strengths. I am very keen to look for work in an appropriate field when I leave university, and I was wondering if anyone here uses max as part of their job? If so, what do you do?
> I would really appreciate any info / pointers!
> Thank you very much
> Tom
—————————————————-

I’m just venturing into this computer-music space. I have lots of ideas, but not much time to come up learning curves to figure out how to create patches that do what I have in mind.

I’m considering using Max/MSP as a host environment for my music . I’m going to download the trial ver. and go through the tutorials. But I’m sure I’ll need help from time to time. For example, if I run into difficulting trying to create a patch to do what I want, I wouldn’t mind paying someone for their expertise to help me. Or, paying someone for a patch that they designed which does a particular effect. Or, helping me get up the learning curve faster by answering questions.

Being new to this community, I don’t know if this is common practice. I value the expertise that people have developed I think its fair to compensate them. My resources are limited but if you are interested in a possible occasional consulting, let me know offline: empyrean @ oregon.com.

> The biggest challenge in programming any specific application is to
> have a deep understanding of what that application really needs to do.

Actually, I think the biggest challenge is to have an understanding
of what the client wants/needs. Everything else follows from that.

I’m often asked if (or how) I make a living from Max/MSP, and the
answer tends to be slightly different each time, but there’s almost
always something Max-related going on, from composition and
performance through writing and teaching through to infrastructure
for arts projects. I think the key to freelancing in this area is to
be versatile, and to constantly pick up new technologies and
techniques. It’s good to specialise, but only if you can specialise
in lots of things at the same time…

(In my current thread of Max work, I’ve managed to incorporate the
Spring Framework into MXJ; this is because I have a little project to
bring back a feature thrown away after Max 3. I’ll say no more at
this stage, although I fully expect Peter C. to guess what it is.)

– N.

Nick Rothwell / Cassiel.com Limited
http://www.cassiel.com
http://www.myspace.com/cassieldotcom
http://www.loadbang.net

I would say that while it is possible to make it a large part of your
income, etc, via Max consulting, what you really want to be doing is
getting involved in areas where Max could be an avenue to realize your
goal. Maybe this is confusing, but the idea is not to walk into the
job market thinking “I’m going to be a Max/MSP programmer” but rather
think in terms of goals rather than solutions…i.e. “I want to get
involved in interactive performance” or “I want to develop
spatialization tools.” It might just turn out that Max is the best way
to achieve those goals when the time comes.

$0.02.

b

register wrote:
> hi everyone,
> I was just wondering if I could through a question out?
> Shortly I will be graduating from university in London, on my sound art and design BA course. Whereas I’m no whizz on Max, and regularly come crying for help, I think my max msp knowledge is one of my strengths. I am very keen to look for work in an appropriate field when I leave university, and I was wondering if anyone here uses max as part of their job? If so, what do you do?
> I would really appreciate any info / pointers!
> Thank you very much
> Tom
>

–
barry threw
composition : sound : programming
http://www.barrythrew.com
bthrew(at)gmail(dot)com
857-544-3967

And I know not if, save in this, such gift be allowed to man,
That out of three sounds he frame, not a fourth sound, but a star.
-Robert Browning

Definitely; I hear you on that one!
This is probably the best advice you can give any programmer. Despite any knowledge to the contrary, the teamwork is the key. Good point.

> I can’t agree with you here, because I don’t think that an
> ‘artistic goal’ will ever remain completely unchanged through our
> exposure to and relationship with the means used to bring it about.

I have not said the oposite of this at all! I just mean that we
should stay focused on the art. Obviously, the tool that you are
using at a given time will influence your way of thinking, and that
is why I try to learn a new language every now and then: to question
the habits.

> Simplicity and elegance, for example, represent a particular, value-
> laden, approach to bringing something about (vs., say, quick n’ dirty)

I think that quick and dirty can be the simplest way sometimes, so
they are not in opposition. I just mean that it is useful to put the
patch in perspective, as a mean to an end, and to assess the work
from a listener’s perspective… I have heard to many concerts when
the patch is cool but the music is boring!

>> ps Btw, more of these 2 cents in NYC next week is someone is
>> interested, I am giving a talk at NYU on new approach and concerns
>> in mixed music…
>
> Shame to miss that, but people keep leaving oceans lying all over
> the place.

It is very untidy, indeed!

> Will you be giving the talk in the UK at some point, if you haven’t
> already?

You can ask your supervisor to invite me (Hi, Laurie ;-) I’m living
in Huddersfield now, so my students do suffer that kind of spiel a lot!

See you soon

pa

> from a listener’s perspective… I have heard to many concerts when
> the patch is cool but the music is boring!

To be honest I haven’t yet looked but, it would nice to listen to a bunch of different music made by Max users – without seeing their patch.

Not a challenge but is there a place to upload/listen to maxmusic.

-sorry to change subject

second that

Mattijs

Keith

On 5/5/07, Mattijs Kneppers wrote:
>
> > I have heard too many concerts when the patch is cool but the music is boring!
>
> second that
>
> Mattijs
> –
> SmadSteck – http://www.smadsteck.nl
> Hard- and software for interactive audiovisual sampling
>

http://www.cycling74.com/c74music

Most, if not all there releases, have some patches in the
folder on the disc.

Max/msp users can out themselves if they want to.
Listening can be tainted by what you know. Personally, i
get distracted when i can easily figure out what someone is
doing, what plugin’s, sequencers, synths, etc. UNLESS it is
utilized in a personalized aka creative way. Perhaps
thats just me.
-chuck

No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail

Thanks – should have looked – I would have found it quite easily.

Some of the music is great – I now have a maxusers exerpts folder to scare my housemates with.

I think process and output quality support eachother, but process can not compensate for bad output quality, and there needn’t be an output if the process is the art – But then is that just engineering.

I think that what I like with Max is its versatility, which renders
your question quite impossible to grasp: just in my case, I have do
contemporary jazz, commercial rap beats and most of my ph.d. in mixed
music.

Since rock bands as Radiohead use this IRCAM-developed software (or
some extension of it anyway ;-), the list of music using Max is quite
long…

pa

There are many artists i know and like who use max – radiohead did not come to mind though.

I think I was more so referring to regular posters to this forum and artists’ tracks that have used max exclusively – hypocritically weighting the process rather than the output :)

http://ruccas.org/

–
Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

that describes the maxmsp concerts i have seen very well.

but there are always exceptions.

If my Max crashes I start to sing, that won’t ruin the concert
experience, but maybe the “peace”… ;-)

It only happened twice since I perform, and both times the audience
didn’t realize it, because there where enough other musicians making
noise…

Stefan

–
Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

Ah, I misunderstood! I agree with that – although I think the issue of
focus is murky (but that doesn’t make your point any less true).

>> Simplicity and elegance, for example, represent a particular,
>> value-laden, approach to bringing something about (vs., say, quick n’
>> dirty)
>
> I think that quick and dirty can be the simplest way sometimes, so they
> are not in opposition.

I was meaning more that they both describe values on the part of the
person making the patch, regardless of whether they’re mutually
exclusive or not (I agree, not).

> I just mean that it is useful to put the patch
> in perspective, as a mean to an end, and to assess the work from a
> listener’s perspective… I have heard to many concerts when the patch
> is cool but the music is boring!

Oh my, yes. I think there’s possibly a range of reasons for that,
including, say, patches that themselves are resistant to musical
playing, or patches that the performer never spends enough time actually
practising with because they’re ‘improving’ it all the time.

>> Will you be giving the talk in the UK at some point, if you haven’t
>> already?
>
> You can ask your supervisor to invite me (Hi, Laurie ;-) I’m living in
> Huddersfield now, so my students do suffer that kind of spiel a lot!

It would be great to get you down to City – as it happens, I’m
considerably nearer sunny W Yorks than I am London, so maybe we should
get them to come north ;-)