Well, at first sight, and on Windows XP :

- the whole UI is very blurry (fonts, objects and wires). There's a 

weird font size ratio, among other things : my old 9 or 10 size look 

like 6 now and it's a nightmare to read old patches

- the OSX window style (all windows detached) is very confusing on Windows

- object palette doesn't stay where you left it. It seems i can't 

organize my workspace and put it at the top, for example. It always 

- can't see how to change the font of several selected objects

- how is it possible that Show / Hide connections could still be without 

- DSP Status window is soooo small (at least on my 1900x1200 display)

Also, on my computer (XP SP2, Max 4.6.3 / Jitter authorized), the 

installer hanged at the end. I had to shoot it manually and restart my 

Note : This is not a "we hate rounded corners" thread, just a how weird 

it is to find yourself with this toyish looking new software, probably 

f.e chanfrault | aka | personal computer music

>>>>>>> |sublime music for a desperate people|

- the whole UI is very blurry (fonts, objects and wires). There's a 
weird font size ratio, among other things : my old 9 or 10 size look 
like 6 now and it's a nightmare to read old patches
- the OSX window style (all windows detached) is very confusing on Windows
- object palette doesn't stay where you left it. It seems i can't 
organize my workspace and put it at the top, for example. It always 
comes under the location you've clicked.
- can't see how to change the font of several selected objects
- where is the Edit Shortcuts feature ?
- how is it possible that Show / Hide connections could still be without 
a shortcut ?
- DSP Status window is soooo small (at least on my 1900x1200 display)

Also, on my computer (XP SP2, Max 4.6.3 / Jitter authorized), the 
installer hanged at the end. I had to shoot it manually and restart my 
computer.

Note : This is not a "we hate rounded corners" thread, just a how weird 
it is to find yourself with this toyish looking new software, probably 
full of very good improvments.

-- 
f.e chanfrault | aka | personal computer music
 >>>>>>> http://www.personal-computer-music.com
 >>>>>>> |sublime music for a desperate people|


max-5-cons

do you see any "Pros" in Max 5 or just "cons"?

I see a lot of people excited... Well, I'm not that impressed: I mostly use Max as a host for implementing physics-based sound synthesis algorithms. No differences here. The interface is still very music- (if not midi-) oriented compared to pd and the DSP engine is exactly the same, and it's very 90s. :(

Anyway, we waited until 2008 and now Max has multiple undo. Hurrah'! That's true innovation

Moreover, I just compared my "old" 1st generation Intel MacBook Pro (Core Duo 2,16GHz) running Max 4.6.3 with a brand new MacBook Pro (Core 2 Duo, 2,4 GHz) running Max 5: well, with the very same patch and identical configuration, the cpu load is 7/8% HIGHER on the new Mac!!?!?!

I see a lot of people excited... Well, I'm not that impressed: I mostly use Max as a host for implementing physics-based sound synthesis algorithms. No differences here. The interface is still very music- (if not midi-) oriented compared to pd and the DSP engine is exactly the same, and it's very 90s. :(
Anyway, we waited until 2008 and now Max has multiple undo. Hurrah'! That's true innovation

Moreover, I just compared my "old" 1st generation Intel MacBook Pro (Core Duo 2,16GHz) running Max 4.6.3 with a brand new MacBook Pro (Core 2 Duo, 2,4 GHz) running Max 5: well, with the very same patch and identical configuration, the cpu load is  7/8% HIGHER on the new Mac!!?!?!


> can't see how to change the font of several selected objects

Note that the font panel floats and will show you the font size of any selected objects.

2. open inspector (ctrl+i, i button in toolbar, etc)

3. resize objects using sizing box on right edge

f.e. said:
> can't see how to change the font of several selected objects

1.  select relevant objects
2.  Object -> Show Fonts
3.  Change font size in font panel

Note that the font panel floats and will show you the font size of any selected objects. 

1.  select relevant objects
2.  open inspector (ctrl+i, i button in toolbar, etc)
3.  change Font Size setting.

1.  select relevant objects
2.  hold shift key
3.  resize objects using sizing box on right edge

1.  select relevant objects
2.  Edit menu, choose Scale...
3.  Manipulate sizing boxes that pop up

Quote: f.e wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 10:49

----------------------------------------------------

> - the OSX window style (all windows detached) is very confusing on Windows

For years people have been complaining that the Max/MSP MDI window management on Windows was old-fashioned/inappropriate/inefficient/whatever. "All the cool programs use SDI," they said.

So Max now uses what's supposed to be the Microsoft-officially-sanctioned Single-Document Interface UI.

This is probably a mixed blessing--Max users tend to spawn a lot more windows than, say, a typical MS Office-worker who might have as many as, oh I dunno, two spreadsheets open at the same time. I also note that Microsoft has been ambivalent about the MDI vs. SDI debate and I understand Office has gone from the one to the other and back again. You obviously don't like it. But you've basically got what a lot of Windows users have been asking for ever since the first XP implementation of Max.

I've seen that the Cycling 74 developers (particularly Rob) have been working hard and creatively to make the Max SDI implementation a more productive experience.

Anyway, it seems a little odd to call SDI "OS X style". OTOH, I complain about a number of Windows-isms that Max has picked up over the years (no optical feedback when you use a keyboard shortcut to activate a button). So maybe I shouldn't blame "the other side" when Max doesn't implement things the way I would wish.

> - object palette doesn't stay where you left it. It seems i can't 

> organize my workspace and put it at the top, for example. It always 

> comes under the location you've clicked.

This seems a pretty deliberate decision. The palette is only there when you need it, and it's positioned close to where the mouse is. This is pretty X/Motiv-ish paradigm, so we can all go and blame the Unix people.

> - where is the Edit Shortcuts feature ?

The new auto-completion is pretty hot. FWIW, I built a suite of about 150 shortcuts into Litter Power 1.7 (actually starting back when the feature was introduced), and in all honesty I never used any of them. Nor did I ever have any feedback about "wow, great shortcuts!" So my feeling is that auto-completion is generally better value. But mileage may vary...

> - how is it possible that Show / Hide connections could still be without 

You can define your own shortcuts. Look at initmax-keycommands.txt

Also, Presentation View may change your past workflow habits regarding show/hide connections anyway.

> Also, on my computer (XP SP2, Max 4.6.3 / Jitter authorized), the 

> installer hanged at the end. I had to shoot it manually and restart my 

Ouais... I know other people had problems with the Installer from time to time. Both on Mac OS and Windows. But it seemed to work most of the time for most people, and the hangs appear to depend as much on your local humidity as anything else.

I know this is little comfort if you're the one who gets the hang.

There are some new features that I find absolutely sizzling hot, others I'm feeling a bit wait-and-see-maybe-they'll-grow-on-me, and there was something I thought was annoying but I can't remember what it was anymore... In any case, a really incredible amount of work and creativity have gone into making Max 5 what it is.

Oh, and there will be an update to Litter Power out fairly soon...

Quote: f.e wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 10:49
----------------------------------------------------
> - the OSX window style (all windows detached) is very confusing on Windows

For years people have been complaining that the Max/MSP MDI window management on Windows was old-fashioned/inappropriate/inefficient/whatever. "All the cool programs use SDI," they said. 

I've seen that the Cycling 74 developers (particularly Rob) have been working hard and creatively to make the Max SDI implementation a more productive experience. 

> - object palette doesn't stay where you left it. It seems i can't 
> organize my workspace and put it at the top, for example. It always 
> comes under the location you've clicked.

> - how is it possible that Show / Hide connections could still be without 
> a shortcut ?

> Also, on my computer (XP SP2, Max 4.6.3 / Jitter authorized), the 
> installer hanged at the end. I had to shoot it manually and restart my 
> computer.

Ouais... I know other people had problems with the Installer from time to time. Both on Mac OS and Windows. But it seemed to work most of the time for most people, and the hangs appear to depend as much on your local humidity as anything else. 

There are some new features that I find absolutely sizzling hot, others I'm feeling a bit wait-and-see-maybe-they'll-grow-on-me, and there was something I thought was annoying but I can't remember what it was anymore... In any case, a really incredible amount of work and creativity have gone into making Max 5 what it is. 

Oh, and there will be an update to Litter Power out fairly soon...


ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.

I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic 

change in appearance when the dac is switched on

or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.

I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic  
change in appearance when the dac is switched on
or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.

Thanks for this Rob. VERY helpful indeed.

On Apr 23, 2008, at 9:37 AM, Rob Sussman wrote:

>> can't see how to change the font of several selected objects

> Note that the font panel floats and will show you the font size of 

> 2. open inspector (ctrl+i, i button in toolbar, etc)

> Method three (shift+size to size font):

> 3. resize objects using sizing box on right edge

>
> f.e. said:
>> can't see how to change the font of several selected objects
>
> Here are four ways to do that.
>
> Method one (use font panel):
>
> 1.  select relevant objects
> 2.  Object -> Show Fonts
> 3.  Change font size in font panel
>
> Note that the font panel floats and will show you the font size of  
> any selected objects.
>
> Method two (use inspector):
>
> 1.  select relevant objects
> 2.  open inspector (ctrl+i, i button in toolbar, etc)
> 3.  change Font Size setting.
>
> Method three (shift+size to size font):
>
> 1.  select relevant objects
> 2.  hold shift key
> 3.  resize objects using sizing box on right edge
>
> Method four (Scale on Edit menu):
>
> 1.  select relevant objects
> 2.  Edit menu, choose Scale...
> 3.  Manipulate sizing boxes that pop up
>
> Enjoy,
> Rob
>


agreed. This stands out as a huge + for me.

On Apr 23, 2008, at 10:15 AM, Peter Castine wrote:

> The new auto-completion is pretty hot.


Quote: kevin parks wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:12

> ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.

> I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic 

> change in appearance when the dac is switched on

> or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.

Quote: kevin parks wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:12
----------------------------------------------------
> my nit to pick
>
> ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.
>
> I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic  
> change in appearance when the dac is switched on
> or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.
>
> peas,
>
> -k
>

On 2008 Apr 23, at 10:12 AM, kevin parks wrote:

You can change the color. In fact you can change the default color. 

In the options menu, check out the "Object Defaults". There are even 

some predefined sets that you can choose from.

> my nit to pick
>
> ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.

You can change the color.  In fact you can change the default color.   
In the options menu, check out the "Object Defaults".  There are even  
some predefined sets that you can choose from.

best,
   Tim
_________________
Tap.Tools / Teabox / Hipno / Hemisphere
http://electrotap.com


On Apr 23, 2008, at 11:12 AM, kevin parks wrote:

> my nit to pick
>
> ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.
>
> I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic  
> change in appearance when the dac is switched on
> or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.
>
> peas,
>
> -k
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Quote: cebec wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 08:30

> Quote: kevin parks wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:12

> ----------------------------------------------------

> > ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.

> > I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic 

> > change in appearance when the dac is switched on

> > or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.

You can go to Options --> Object Defaults... and edit the colors.

Quote: cebec wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 08:30
----------------------------------------------------
> Quote: kevin parks wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:12
> ----------------------------------------------------
> > my nit to pick
> >
> > ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.
> >
> > I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic  
> > change in appearance when the dac is switched on
> > or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.
> >
> > peas,
> >
> > -k
> >
>
> I'll 2nd that.
----------------------------------------------------

Options Menu --> Object Defaults --> exdac

& click on the color doohicky thing. Not sure what the on1 and on2 is

but i know it is bloo by defaults so i changed that puppy.

On Apr 23, 2008, at 11:30 AM, matt wrote:

>> ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.

>> I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic

>> change in appearance when the dac is switched on

>> or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.

Options Menu --> Object Defaults --> exdac
& click on the color doohicky thing. Not sure what the on1 and on2 is
but i know it is bloo by defaults so i changed that puppy.

>
> Quote: kevin parks wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:12
> ----------------------------------------------------
>> my nit to pick
>>
>> ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.
>>
>> I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic
>> change in appearance when the dac is switched on
>> or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.
>>
>> peas,
>>
>> -k
>>
>
> I'll 2nd that.
> --
> http://www.virb.com/cebec


On Apr 23, 2008, at 8:12 AM, kevin parks wrote:

You can change your color defaults, if you like...

On Apr 23, 2008, at 8:12 AM, kevin parks wrote:
> my nit to pick
>
> ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.

>> I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic 

This too is easy to configure to your own personal desires - go to 

Options/Object Defaults - you will see there how to configure your UI 

objects with your own personal color schemes (which you can save). 

Cycling has provided several already that you can take a look at (see 

202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X / Major 

>  > ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.
>>
>>  I would prefer a faux led indicator or some kind of more dramatic 
>>  change in appearance when the dac is switched on
>  > or at least an outlet for an LED indicator.
>
>I'll 2nd that.

This too is easy to configure to your own personal desires - go to 
Options/Object Defaults - you will see there how to configure your UI 
objects with your own personal color schemes (which you can save). 
Cycling has provided several already that you can take a look at (see 
icon in lower left corner of window).

HTH,
Dan
-- 
Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X / Major 
Malfunction
http://www.defectiverecords.com
http://www.jackosx.com


Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:55

> On Apr 23, 2008, at 8:12 AM, kevin parks wrote:

> Easily changed in the Object Defaults window, for new projects.

Ha, I'm still not clear... Can you change it in the Object Defaults window? ;)

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:55
----------------------------------------------------
>
> On Apr 23, 2008, at 8:12 AM, kevin parks wrote:
> > ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.
>
>
> Easily changed in the Object Defaults window, for new projects.
>
> �C
>
> Chris Muir
> cbm@well.com	
> http://www.xfade.com
>

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out a few features that might help a little. Some of these might be more obvious than others and I'm not sure how completely documented some of them are. So, here goes:

1. Window menu has "Minimize All" and "Restore All" which could help you put max windows away or get them back quickly.

2. Window menu has "Hide Subwindows". This will close all open subpatchers and might help clean things up should you open too many. :)

3. Window menu has "Bring all to Front" which can be useful to quickly get back to max after jumping to some other program.

4. There is a Max icon in the system tray. Clicking on it is the same thing as "Bring all to Front". Clicking on it will also show the max window if there are no windows with menus around.

5. Right clicking on the max icon in the system tray will give you a handy menu.

6. By default, Max will quit when you close the last window (or when you choose File -> Exit). You can turn off the "Exit on Last Window Closed" Setting in the Preferences window (on the Options menu on windows). If you do this then you can close all max windows and then either quit or get back the max window from the system tray icon.

7. If you want to make a patcher window without a menu you can do "window flags nomenu, window exec" -> thispatcher. Check out the windowMessages subpatcher in thispatcher.maxhelp. Make sure you also have a "window flags menu, window exec" -> thispatcher hidden somewhere so that you can get the menu back when you need to do things to your patch.

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out a few features that might help a little.  Some of these might be more obvious than others and I'm not sure how completely documented some of them are. So, here goes:

1.  Window menu has "Minimize All" and "Restore All" which could help you put max windows away or get them back quickly. 

2.  Window menu has "Hide Subwindows".  This will close all open subpatchers and might help clean things up should you open too many.  :)

3.  Window menu has "Bring all to Front" which can be useful to quickly get back to max after jumping to some other program. 

4.  There is a Max icon in the system tray.  Clicking on it is the same thing as "Bring all to Front".  Clicking on it will also show the max window if there are no windows with menus around. 

5.  Right clicking on the max icon in the system tray will give you a handy menu.  

6.  By default, Max will quit when you close the last window (or when you choose File -> Exit).  You can turn off the "Exit on Last Window Closed" Setting in the Preferences window (on the Options menu on windows).  If you do this then you can close all max windows and then either quit or get back the max window from the system tray icon.  

7.  If you want to make a patcher window without a menu you can do "window flags nomenu, window exec" -> thispatcher.  Check out the windowMessages subpatcher in thispatcher.maxhelp.  Make sure you also have a "window flags menu, window exec" -> thispatcher hidden somewhere so that you can get the menu back when you need to do things to your patch.  

> *ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.*

The first thing I did in Max 5 is to learn how to change object defaults 

(options menu) and the first default change was the ezdac~. Its glowing 

yellow whenever I place a new ezdac~ or open any of the patches with a 

default ezdac~... But yours might be red or green...

kevin parks schrieb:
> my nit to pick
>
> *ezdac~ doesn't look a whole lot different on than it does off.*

The first thing I did in Max 5 is to learn how to change object defaults 
(options menu) and the first default change was the ezdac~. Its glowing 
yellow whenever I place a new ezdac~ or open any of the patches with a 
default ezdac~... But yours might be red or green...
(same for ezadc~... ;-)

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


Because math has changed a lot since 1998.

That (I'm pretty sure) is when MSP was released. It was also based 

largely off pd, which you seem to like more. The only real difference 

On Apr 23, 2008, at 2:23 AM, Stefano Papetti wrote:

> The interface is still very music- (if not midi-) oriented compared 

> to pd and the DSP engine is exactly the same, and it's very 90s.

That (I'm pretty sure) is when MSP was released. It was also based  
largely off pd, which you seem to like more. The only real difference  
is that it uses floats for everything.

> The interface is still very music- (if not midi-) oriented compared  
> to pd and the DSP engine is exactly the same, and it's very 90s.

San Francisco, CA
Work: 857-544-3967
Email: bthrew (at) gmail (dot) com
Web: www.barrythrew.com


4. no live debugging (hover over an inlet/outlet to see value), i hope in

> general that scripting something like that should be possible.

do a search on watchpoints. More useful by a longshot

than just hovering, since you want to see more than

4. no live debugging (hover over an inlet/outlet to see value), i hope in
> general that scripting something like that should be possible.

do a search on watchpoints. More useful by a longshot
than just hovering, since you want to see more than
one place.


>4. no live debugging (hover over an inlet/outlet to see value), i 

>hope in general that scripting something like that should be 

Look at Probing/Matrix Probe in Debug menu - these work for audio 

signal outlets (since non-audio signals only come episodically and 

hovering won't show you anything coming out unless you happen to 

catch it at the instant in time that it came out.

>4. no live debugging (hover over an inlet/outlet to see value), i 
>hope in general that scripting something like that should be 
>possible.

Look at Probing/Matrix Probe in Debug menu - these work for audio 
signal outlets (since non-audio signals only come episodically and 
hovering won't show you anything coming out unless you happen to 
catch it at the instant in time that it came out.

Dan
-- 
Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X / Major 
Malfunction
http://www.defectiverecords.com
http://www.jackosx.com


Turn on probing. A find watchpoints and breakpoints.

On Apr 23, 2008, at 10:11 AM, yair reshef wrote:

> 4. no live debugging (hover over an inlet/outlet to see value), i 

> hope in general that scripting something like that should be possible.

> 4. no live debugging (hover over an inlet/outlet to see value), i  
> hope in general that scripting something like that should be possible.

> Ha, I'm still not clear... Can you change it in the Object Defaults 

I think what you're seeing is the difference in timing between people 

who participate in this list via the forums and people who participate 

via the mailing list (which can be slower.)

On Apr 23, 2008, at 9:44 AM, matt wrote:
> Ha, I'm still not clear... Can you change it in the Object Defaults  
> window? ;)

I think what you're seeing is the difference in timing between people  
who participate in this list via the forums and people who participate  
via the mailing list (which can be slower.)

Chris Muir
cbm@well.com	
http://www.xfade.com

G, watchpoints are notsame, patching is not taking your eyes of the patch,

anything that can be done without stopping the flow is good no, after one

time of hintboxs i prefer to get the data, seeing the output is ~more

barry, patches i do updates at 20ms. probe, the trusty jit.fpsgui+pwindow,

Max 5 cons