Forums > MaxMSP

Max 5: Epic failure

October 20, 2008 | 8:55 am

Nothing can save Max5 besides a rewrite.
No amount of text.

I’m not going to write an long and clever post. Not this time. I’m too busy.

There’s only a short time on this planet, and it’s not worth being driven towards madness to attempt to use Max 5.

The GUI is too slow to be usable.
The mistake was a simple one, JUCE.

We all know that.

Anybody who pretends Max5 is acceptable does so because of the money they paid.
Any Cycling employee who pretends Max5 is acceptable does so because of the time they invested into the product.
Pardon the nosisma, but I don’t need our outraged defense.

In the most simple, distilled, pure and spot-on the money straight for the heart determination of max 5 there could ever be, just two lines:

Max 5 feels like crap.
It’s unresponsive.

All JUCE products are highly latent.
We knew that long ago.
Max 5 responds to you a few hundred milliseconds later.
Max cannot think fast anymore.
Max 5′s mind is broken.
Max 5 cannot keep up.
Max 5 is senile,
just like David Z. for lacking the foresight when he decided to use JUCE.

Max 4 thinks fast.
Max 4 felt good.
Max 4 was a PLEASURE to use.
It made the "spurts" of pleasure happen when things click into place a certain way.
Max 5 does not, it feels down, slugging, lugging, dragging, dead.

And so I use Max 4.

Programs aren’t made out of just features.
Programs feel a certain way.

Qt’s responsiveness is perfect.

I’m too busy writing piles of sonatas, high level code, low level code, and using max 4 to make awesome stuff, to let Max 5 make me sad.

Forget it, Max 5 is a failure.

It’s an strange phenomenon how guys can be capable coders but not be aware of libraries and possess good taste in libs. Very strange. That’s just how it is.

These cycling employees can code but they’re retards when it comes to something as simple as, ‘DOWNLOADING JUCE AND WITHIN 3 OR 4 HOURS OF MAKING LITTLE TEST APPS, REALIZING SOMETHING IS *SEVERELY* WRONG WITH THE LATENCY.’
Have any of you ever tried to use Traction? Is that not enough of a case-study in a library for you to grasp?
Does it make sense?
No, and I’ve got to get back to work.

David,
Rewrite your code with Qt.


October 20, 2008 | 10:05 am

On 20 Oct 2008, at 09:55, Zola wrote:

> David,
> Rewrite your code with Qt.

Mmm, yep, that’s going to happen.

For what it’s worth, I agree that the JUCE-based GUI is slower than
the old QuickDraw one, but what it lacks in responsiveness it more
than makes up for in workflow and ease of use, so it balances out. As
far as I’ve been able to determine and measure, there’s no appreciable
difference in computational performance. And I expect the C74 folk
will improve the GUI performance over time.

Out of interest, what speed of computer are you using?

– N.

Nick Rothwell / Cassiel.com Limited
http://www.cassiel.com
http://www.myspace.com/cassieldotcom
http://www.last.fm/music/cassiel
http://www.reverbnation.com/cassiel
http://www.linkedin.com/in/cassiel
http://www.loadbang.net


October 20, 2008 | 10:33 am

This has been said many times before and is becoming frankly, quite dull.

Your attitude is unprofessional, childish and insulting, especially considering the huge improvements in Max5. You can still use Max4 if you wish and there is a demo version of Max5 so you can evaluate it before spending the money.

I suggest you rewrite your suggestions politely and professionally and you may then see results.

Thanks.


October 20, 2008 | 10:41 am

Cycling could port it.
JUCE and Qt API’s are similar.
Cycling already did the hard work.

Stuff drawn with QPainter can switch between software rendering, OpenGL accelerated rendering, and Direct3d. With the flip of a switch. It will even draw *all widgets* in GL or D3D.

http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2006/10/benchmarks.html

Nick: Ye olde "what speed computer" question/statement means "zola is an idiot and doesn’t have a grasp on the difference between max performance and the computer." Too predictable.


October 20, 2008 | 11:51 am

On 20 Oct 2008, at 11:41, Zola wrote:

> Nick: Ye olde "what speed computer" question/statement means "zola
> is an idiot and doesn’t have a grasp on the difference between max
> performance and the computer." Too predictable.

It doesn’t actually. What more can I say? As we used to say on USEnet:
*plonk*.

– N.

Nick Rothwell / Cassiel.com Limited
http://www.cassiel.com
http://www.myspace.com/cassieldotcom
http://www.last.fm/music/cassiel
http://www.reverbnation.com/cassiel
http://www.linkedin.com/in/cassiel
http://www.loadbang.net


October 20, 2008 | 12:01 pm

You are behaving like a petulant little child. Trying to force change through insults has never worked, and I’m pretty sure it won’t work here either.

Asking what kind of computer you use is pretty relevant, your response was as irrelevant as could be.

(btw, I’m using Max 5 for lots of usable and useful things. I used to work with Max 4. Am I doing something wrong?)


October 20, 2008 | 12:19 pm

for my 2 cents. I feel this is just too much of a childish stab to get what you want.
But in turn wont work.

I feel myself that Max 5 is a huge step up from what they had before. And anyhow, Max 4 would not have been bug free when it first came out, just as Max 5 is.
This is why we have reasons of 5.0.2, 5.0.3, etc. Updates to rectify any bad happenings that are sadly going on with some Max users.

Also the question of computer speed is necessary, by all means…


October 20, 2008 | 1:32 pm

Sorry to hear it is not working out for you.
Have a nice life…


October 20, 2008 | 2:53 pm

Agreed. Now everyone please stop feeding the trolls.

*plonk* indeed.
Andreas (who works more than 50% faster in Max5)

Anthony Palomba skrev:
> Sorry to hear it is not working out for you.
> Have a nice life…


October 20, 2008 | 6:33 pm

@Everyone,

I really can’t agree that a faster processor is the key.. My tests don’t point to a computer issue. I’ve tested Max 5 out on a number of computers and the results are consistent. Performance sucks.

Also, quit being such trollophobes. Zola seems to feel more strongly about Max and hence his lexical usage reflects anguish. Just because he doesn’t word things in a way YOU see fit doesn’t mean you have to overlook the issue he’s bringing up and get your rocks off by flaming him.

@Zola,

Don’t ride it off just yet. Adam Murray and I MAY have discovered a difference in Max 4 and 5 which may be at the heart of this so called "failure". I can completely relate to your feelings, but pointing the finger at JUCE may be wrong.

This seems to be the case, at least from my own tests:

A few months ago, and just recently, I proposed that Max 5 might be constantly rebuilding the scheduler while dragging things around. To prove that I made a patch which tests this behavior. You drag a message box to the left another message box with the mouse button held down. Both message boxes are being banged at a 1000ms interval. If the message box you’re dragging appears AFTER the one you dragged over, then it’s sufficient evidence that the scheduler is being rebuilt, at intervals, while dragging things around, AND, that constant rebuilding is probably what’s causing things to get sluggish. And for what, too? The only reason to rebuild is to make sure non-trigger right to left order is maintained while dragging.

Anyways, that patch is this…

#P window setfont "Sans Serif" 10.;
#P window linecount 2;
#P message 216 188 103 196618 ###################;
#P window linecount 1;
#P newex 143 98 70 196618 metro 1000;
#P newex 143 125 27 196618 b;
#P newex 204 278 26 196618 print;
#P window setfont "Sans Serif" 10.;
#P message 163 190 14 9109514 a;
#P window setfont "Sans Serif" 10.;
#P message 143 189 14 196618 b;
#P newex 143 70 53 196618 loadbang;
#P window linecount 6;
#P comment 30 115 100 196618 drag the a to the left of the b , but don’t let go til you’ve seen that a is still perceived as right of the b , then let go;
#P window linecount 5;
#P comment 243 47 100 196618 does max constantly update the scheduler while dragging stuff around? NO.;
#P connect 6 0 3 0;
#P connect 6 0 4 0;
#P connect 6 1 8 0;
#P connect 7 0 6 0;
#P connect 8 0 5 0;
#P connect 3 0 5 0;
#P connect 4 0 5 0;
#P connect 2 0 7 0;
#P window clipboard copycount 9;

However, there was a problem which I hadn’t even realized would be a problem. You see, I don’t have Max 5. My demo has run out. So, I test it and report back to the forum that my speculation is WRONG. I had discovered that Max 4 doesn’t rebuild the scheduler when dragging objects around.

I hadn’t even speculated that Max 5 would be different because I had already concluded that Max 5 was just more of a GUI update and that the core behavior would be the same.

So, Emmanuel Jordan torts back that I am a troll and posts a video to prove the point. In his video, he shows that, in Max 5, the scheduler DOES get rebuilt while dragging things around.

Here is his video:

http://www.e–j.com/dl/troll2.mov

And inadvertently, in his pursuit to label me a troll, he failed to realize that the issue was not me "getting it wrong", but that I was on Max 4, and he was on 5, and our different result were because we were on different Max’s. At least it would appear that way. So based on this, I can say that….

- Max 4 does not rebuild the graph when dragging until the left mouse button is released.
- Max 5 DOES rebuild the graph when dragging WHILE the left mouse button is being held down.

Of course he has since shied away despite his error in thinking this was a trolling issue. You’d think having a part in discovering a major difference between dragging in Max 4 and 5 would call for celebration as many people are completely frustrated with how latent Max 5 feels. I know at least 3 guys in LA who refuse to use Max 5 purely for this fact.

I am proposing a solution to my #1 complaint in Max 5. I feel I have at least SOME evidence to point to the problem NOT BEING JUCE, as most people tend to think, but the fact that the interpreter is constantly rebuilding things in Max 5, when it wasn’t in 4.

I think if you change the way how the interpreter acts during dragging back to the way it worked in Max 4, you’d see a huge speed boost in the canvas.

As Adam Murray stated:

"I personally don’t see why the right-to-left order needs to constantly update while dragging the mouse. Maybe some people think it is good for usability or whatever, but it is really necessary to try to keep the patch in a completely accurate state every instant while dragging objects around? It seems to me that waiting until the mouse button is lifted, and then recalculating the object graph *once* would potentially improve canvas performance by a noticeable amount."

Seems to sum it up.

Thanks,
Vux


October 20, 2008 | 6:48 pm

Quote: vuxivil wrote on Mon, 20 October 2008 12:33
—————————————————-
> Also, quit being such trollophobes. Zola seems to feel more strongly about Max and hence his lexical usage reflects anguish. Just because he doesn’t word things in a way YOU see fit doesn’t mean you have to overlook the issue he’s bringing up and get your rocks off by flaming him.

This is where you are wrong. Common decency is not much of a demand, and if a particular user acts like a jackass, he shouldn’t expect a respectful treatment.

Read his first post again. It even contains personal insults. I would completely understand if his post is ignored by Cycling’74.

"Max 5 is senile,
just like David Z. for lacking the foresight when he decided to use JUCE."

This is acceptable to you?

His voice is one of arrogance, not of "anguish".

And as others have said: Lots and lots of people can do lots of lots of things with Max 5. This is something both you and him (for all I know you are the same, and it’s all part of the game) seem to ignore as you make your grand, sweeping statements about the complete uselessness (if that’s a word) of Max 5.

You are speaking on behalf of yourself, not the entire community.


October 20, 2008 | 7:25 pm

@oivindi:

You’re completely without any relevance to this topic. In fact, you’re apart of the problem. You stated only a few days ago that…

1. Max 5 was completely usable AND
2. You were completely happy patching in a canvas that ran at arond 10 frames a second

Obviously, a guy who thinks that patching in Max at 10 frames a second is going to endlessly be angry at people who want a solid 60 frames.

You have a complete garbage, outdated computer, too. Take it from someone with a better computer that your untested assumption that things speed up on faster computers is complete nonsense. Ive tested on numerous computers, and the latency is terrible across the board.

And yes, I have no problems with what Zola has said.

David isn’t senile, but, so what if Zola thinks that? Who cares? You’re assuming too much about things by boycotting this thread with your moral nonsense. As Ive stated, your expectations on Max’s latency are that 10 FPS is acceptable, so..

It’s kind of like saying…
"Hey, I just bought Doom 3, and I love playing at 10 FPS. Doesn’t matter that I have one of the best processors/GPUs available, 10 frames is FINE BY ME"

"Common decency" is a point of view. Ive grown past trying to make people speak or act in a way in which I deem appropriate, and playing executioner when they don’t follow the rules, which is what you’re doing now.

You are a horn-blowing trollophobe, a person with zero quality control standards, and a person who is completely obsessed with enforcing rules and punishing people. Your ideas about the future and state of Max are all crap.

Zola is distressed. He obviously had a lot to look forward to in Max 5 and those things haven’t come to light. I can relate in that I absolutely loved Max 4, albeit, I felt like it needed a new, zoomable canvas, an improved help system, etc. We got all that in Max 5, but we also got a latency which makes it unusable. A lot of people have said this, including some venerable old timers/gurus of this forum like Olaf Matthews.

thanks.


October 20, 2008 | 7:44 pm

Quote: vuxivil wrote on Mon, 20 October 2008 13:25
—————————————————-
> You’re completely without any relevance to this topic. In fact, you’re apart of the problem. You stated only a few days ago that…
>
> 1. Max 5 was completely usable AND
> 2. You were completely happy patching in a canvas that ran at arond 10 frames a second

I have no problems doing lots of sensible things with Max 5, which is what I said.

> Obviously, a guy who thinks that patching in Max at 10 frames a second is going to endlessly be angry at people who want a solid 60 frames.

I’m not angry that people want a certain feature. I’m annoyed with people who act like spoilt little brats, and then get terribly annoyed when they get criticised.

Grow up.

> And yes, I have no problems with what Zola has said.

He wasn’t talking about you, so I’m not surprised.

You seem to get upset with other people, though, so obviously your "morale relativism" is just a pose – hence your attempt at sarcasm.

> David isn’t senile, but, so what if Zola thinks that? Who cares?

David? Others who think a bit of respect has never hurt anyone?

You should try opening your next letter to grandma like this: Hey, you little c*nt! What’s up, b*tch? Doing ok, turd?

I’m sure you catch my drift.

> You’re assuming too much about things by boycotting this thread with your moral nonsense.

If it was nonsense I wouldn’t have bothered, but since it isn’t, I’ll keep it up.

> It’s kind of like saying…
> "Hey, I just bought Doom 3, and I love playing at 10 FPS. Doesn’t matter that I have one of the best processors/GPUs available, 10 frames is FINE BY ME"

That’s the most terrible analogy I’ve read in a while.

> "Common decency" is a point of view.

Up until a point. If someone sitting next to you on the bus gave you a verbal slap in the face, I’m pretty sure you’d agree that the limit of "decency" had been reached, right? Maybe they even spat at you.

> You are a horn-blowing trollophobe, a person with zero quality control standards, and a person who is completely obsessed with enforcing rules and punishing people. Your ideas about the future and state of Max are all crap.

Crap, eh? To paraphrase: "One man’s crap is another man’s gold".

You seem to say I don’t know my own good when it comes to Max 5. This is what firmly places you in the camp for ridiculous behaviour.

As I said: I don’t have a problem with you having a problem. I have a big problem with you acting like a spoilt child.

> Zola is distressed. He obviously had a lot to look forward to in Max 5 and those things haven’t come to light. I can relate

Zola might be distressed, but he’s also an arrogant, condescending little man. He should expect to be treated the same way.


October 20, 2008 | 7:46 pm

I think for one, that manners are a must. No-body, whether being yourself or anyone else would like to be called ‘senile’.

I myself am a person who does believe that good manners can go along way rather than just saying ‘i want that’, ‘give me that’ or ‘this is shit’ and ‘that is shit’ etc.
Yes, he is annoyed at the fact that the performance for himself is not up to the standard of what he was hoping, i feel for it. But to really say things like that, is a bit too much. I think many users could agree.

Plus I also have wondered ‘why doesn’t he post his annoyance to Cycling 74 crew themselves’ rather than having a huge banter that can get other user riled up because of the comments that were posted.
I am not saying that is wrong, because many people do say about ‘what is wrong’. But the manner in speaking was a bit too much

I don’t even know why i am posting any replies to this forum post. But possibly to the fact that, this is place for learning and figuring out patch problems. Not for saying bad things to one another, and calling people names and even starting ‘virtual fights’, which is actually silly when you think about.

I’m not wanting to start anything, i think this has just gotten to the point already where it has gone too far. Plus i do suggest that Zola does contact the Cycling 74 team about these situations and to see if anything is going to be be done about.

I don’t think anybody could argue with that sort of reasoning?…


October 20, 2008 | 8:03 pm

On 20/10/2008 20:46, "Lewis G. Edwards" wrote:

>
> I think for one, that manners are a must.

Viv Stanshall was once asked by a U.S sheriff how he intended to defend
himself if he wasn’t carrying a gun. His reply: "With good manners!"
Cheers
Roger


October 20, 2008 | 8:08 pm

> > It’s kind of like saying…
> > "Hey, I just bought Doom 3, and I love playing at 10 FPS. Doesn’t matter that I have one of the best processors/GPUs available, 10 frames is FINE BY ME"
>
>
> That’s the most terrible analogy I’ve read in a while.
>

It’s also pretty relevant to how pathetic your defense of a canvas running at 10 FPS is.

Wanting my canvas to feel smooth makes me a spoiled brat. I suppose you’ll be the one to spank me and put me in my room, now, right?

>
> > "Common decency" is a point of view.
>
> Up until a point. If someone sitting next to you on the bus gave you a verbal slap in the face, I’m pretty sure you’d agree that the limit of "decency" had been reached, right? Maybe they even spat at you.
>

Scared maybe, but I wouldn’t start preaching to him about manners.

>
> You seem to say I don’t know my own good when it comes to Max 5. This is what firmly places you in the camp for ridiculous behaviour.
>

There is no seem-ing about it. You absolutely have zero standards and your recommendations to people to get faster computers are completely unfounded and untested. Bad advice at it’s finest.

You come into topics that you don’t agree with and start spewing all this garbage about gratitude and decency. What’s next? You’re going to tell me there’s starving children in Africa and that I need to be grateful for every morsel of food I eat or else I’m a "bad person"?

> You should try opening your next letter to grandma like this: Hey, you little c*nt! What’s up, b*tch? Doing ok, turd?

We’ve had grandma on this milking machine for quite some time, giving her hormones so she’ll produce more breast milk. We package it and sell it to non-native language speaking minorities. We also contaminate the milk with pesticides.

Lately, though, grandma’s been acting up. You’re right, that bitch needs a few choice words to get her back in line. Production has been falling behind and if she doesn’t get her fat ass back on track we’re gonna have to put her down.


October 20, 2008 | 8:18 pm

Quote: vuxivil wrote on Mon, 20 October 2008 14:08
—————————————————-
> > That’s the most terrible analogy I’ve read in a while.
> >
>
> It’s also pretty relevant to how pathetic your defense of a canvas running at 10 FPS is.

No, it wasn’t, which is what made the analogy so terrible. I’m sorry you can’t see that.

> Wanting my canvas to feel smooth makes me a spoiled brat. I suppose you’ll be the one to spank me and put me in my room, now, right?

You are getting it completely wrong again. I will now say this for the THIRD time: I have no problems with you wanting a problem fixed.

I have a problem with people who DEMAND such and such, and then top it off by calling the people who create the software names.

Since you are treating Cycling’74 with contempt, you should expect to be treated with the same contempt. The fact that you can’t, or won’t, see this is what leads me to assume you are a spoilt brat, and that your thoughts about the relativity of forum behaviour is just ad hoc, or even opportunistic.

> > Up until a point. If someone sitting next to you on the bus gave you a verbal slap in the face, I’m pretty sure you’d agree that the limit of "decency" had been reached, right? Maybe they even spat at you.
> >
>
> Scared maybe, but I wouldn’t start preaching to him about manners.

I wouldn’t expect you to. I would, however, expect you to conclude, silently, that such behaviour isn’t really what you’d want on a bus, right?

This forum isn’t violent, so such thoughts can be opinionated with the volume turned to about six or seven.

> > You seem to say I don’t know my own good when it comes to Max 5. This is what firmly places you in the camp for ridiculous behaviour.
> >
>
> There is no seem-ing about it. You absolutely have zero standards and your recommendations to people to get faster computers are completely unfounded and untested. Bad advice at it’s finest.

Where did I recommend that people get faster computers? I said it was relevant, not the be all and end all of everything.

It’s rather amusing to see how offended you get when people talk back, yet you expect your tirades to just ease into this community without any resistance.

> eat or else I’m a "bad person"?

We don’t need Africa to conclude that you have some issues when it comes to treating others with respect.

But I won’t bother with you any more. You are a bore. Continue talking to the wall, if you must.


October 20, 2008 | 8:26 pm

I perfectly agree with you, Lewis
all my support in this reasoning.

tom


October 20, 2008 | 8:50 pm

Alright kids, get back to work.

b


October 20, 2008 | 8:59 pm

I always go by the adage that you should never say anything on a forum that you wouldn’t say if you were face to face with the person.

From the impression I get of what type of person vuvixil is, I am quite certain that if they were standing next to me their idea of "common decency" would probably take on a very "common" form real quick.

Oh and 5 is slower in the GUI area but I have faith that advancements will be made. It’s still a pleasure for me to work with compared to 4 by virtue of multiple undo and zooming alone.


October 20, 2008 | 9:10 pm

Quote: oivindi wrote on Mon, 20 October 2008 14:18
> We don’t need Africa to conclude that you have some issues when it comes to treating others with respect.
>
> But I won’t bother with you any more. You are a bore. Continue talking to the wall, if you must.
—————————————————-

I have no issues with people treating people with respect or not.

Here’s the difference:

- You read through Zola’s post and immediately saw one or two choice words and you raised the flag about that. You completely ignored his frustration, his comparisons, and it’s validity to an ongoing issue that has been raised over Max 5.

- I read through Zolas post and read a good amount of relevant points and ignored the negative things. I’m not interested in punishing Zola for being upset with Max, despite the fact he may have used some words which don’t accurately paint the picture of Max’s developers.

I see the bigger issue, a slow Max. You, on the other hand, are obsessed with finding lexical issues and ignoring the topic. You did it with Zola, then you did it with my post.

Point being, I don’t flip out whenever someone using a word that I don’t like, and I think you’re pathetic for trying to boycott thread after thread when you find wording that you don’t agree with. It seems to be all you do.

I appreciate people being respectful just as anyone would, but I don’t place it at the top of my list. If someone is rude it’s all just the same. I simply don’t care.

> I wouldn’t expect you to. I would, however, expect you to conclude, silently, that such behaviour isn’t really what you’d want on a bus, right?

And to answer your question, no, I wouldn’t conclude that sort of behavior is inappropriate on a bus. I wouldn’t even conclude that behavior was not what I wanted in my house. When things like that happen, I SIMPLY get over them. I don’t build some moral case for what’s appropriate behavior. I’d rather think about music and not try and control people through morality.


October 20, 2008 | 10:38 pm

In this age…

We’ve got awesome speculative&out-of-order opcode destroyers at 3ghz for dirt cheap, GPU’s capable of stuff like Crysis, an amazing wealth of high quality opensource libraries with near perfection in accelerated drawing, full disclosure of the inner workings of things, a whole wide world of documentation on all the problems and solutions in computing… developers in countless forums ready to help.. Humans doing 3d stuff way beyond anything Max approaches. Look at apps like SecondLife with netcode synchronized 3d editors that show no UI latency. Hell, people are doing flowcharty vector stuff *in web browsers* with less latency than Max 5.

And yet, when it comes to Max, in the year 2008, Cycling can’t get it together to do a *2d user interface* that’s fast and responsive. What’s going on…

A fast canvas which isn’t 1-frame behind. If you look at apps like SynthEdit, Reaktor & what have-you, they’re not 1-frame behind. The paint events come when they come and that’s-that.

I don’t want to USE A QUEUE. I want to use AN APP. Max5 feels like operating a queue. How would it feel to drive a car like that?

I mean isn’t that the bare minimum? Hello, how can you guys be so jaded? Haven’t you come to expect that programmers have realllllly figured out the whole "objects on a canvas" things by now?

I have way higher standards. I’ve been around, I have *taste*. I use a snappy OS on purpose. I pick only snappy programs. If I try out some IM client and it runs like crap, it’s going to be uninstalled in 30 seconds. If I download some GTK app on windows like Inkscape, it’s gonna get uninstalled immediately.

But we’re supposed to lower our standards for Max/MSP.

Max is the least responsive application on my computer. I just don’t pick this kinda software.

We’re in the computing doghouse.


October 20, 2008 | 10:57 pm

@Zola

Don’t forget Bidule! That program performs flawlessly with 1000 objects dragging around. Proof that a graphics accelerated canvas can be fast.

The proponents of Max 5 have three things to say…

1. Get a faster computer
2. Learn to encapsulate better
3. Be grateful for the new features, you ungrateful brat!!!

To which I just have to laugh.

Did you read my findings? It seems Max 5 is doing some extra work that Max 4 didnt. It could just be speculation. I don’t have Max 5 installed and am trusting that Emmanuel Jordan reported his findings accurately. I’m sure you understand that Max uses an interpreter and, what I think I found was that Max 5 does interval-based reinterpretation of the graph while you drag things around, where as Max 4 simply rebuilt it when you let go of the mouse.

I made points about Traktion being a hunk of junk, too, a few months ago. LOL. I don’t know if that’s enough to close the book on JUCE though, traktion may just be programmed terribly.

Don’t forget to read this thread, which is a sort of a continuation of what we have going here (another thread where oivindi came and took a big-steamy-one on everything):

http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&th=36094&start=0&rid=7633&S=49a0bdedb6f260a90ca84be35b3d2d7c

Best of luck,
vux


October 20, 2008 | 11:06 pm

@Zola

"Btw folks, I’m a bit surprised that you think it’s _okay_ that things are clunky. How is it that we have games with tens of million polygons flying around and physics engines running all super smooth at over 60 frames per second, yet, Max 5 can’t drag fifty 2 dimensional _OVALS_ without completely crapping out the graphics and driving one of my CPU cores to 100%? It can’t draw 2 characters on a white background every 10ms? You expect me to believe that this is asking to much of the developers?" – Me

I’m forgetting Chris Muir excusing Max 5′s slowness of account of the object boxes having "alpha channels"… LOL! If that isn’t the funniest thing ever.

Some more of my posts:

http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=148342&rid=7633&S=49a0bdedb6f260a90ca84be35b3d2d7c#msg_148342

http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=148346&rid=7633&S=49a0bdedb6f260a90ca84be35b3d2d7c#msg_148346


October 20, 2008 | 11:57 pm

You people have no real respect for Cycling 74 devs. You accept their 10-fps bullshit as if that’s all that Cycling is capable of accomplishing, and then you defend their failure. You treat the team like kiddies. (What a good job you’ve done!) I am courteous enough to not lie about Max 5.



kjg
October 21, 2008 | 12:00 am

You guys are hilarious. Really. And pretty pathetic too. Really.

Zola, whatever your frustration is, I don’t think you have any right (or reason) to insult David Zicarelli on this forum. By doing that you have completely discredited yourself for at least 99% of the members of this forum. And how do you think you are helping your cause exactly? Same question for you vuxivil. How are you helping you cause by your trolling tone in this and other threads?

Max 5 is what it is. An improvement in some ways, and a bit of a disappointment in others. We can all make our own judgement and decide what we value more. The advantages of 4 vs those of 5 and the _disadvantages of 4 vs 5.

I bought Max 5 and will stay on 4 for now.
It is stable and snappy. That’s all I need. Extra features and eye candy are no priority right now. But that doesn’t mean I go round insulting people and acting like an socially handicapped teenager.

Btw boys, got any real names??

With disdain for you two, and kind regards for all respectable forum members,

Klaas-Jan Govaart


October 21, 2008 | 12:26 am

Quote: Zola wrote on Mon, 20 October 2008 17:57
—————————————————-
> You people have no real respect for Cycling 74 devs. You accept their 10-fps bullshit as if that’s all that Cycling is capable of accomplishing, and then you defend their failure. You treat the team like kiddies. (What a good job you’ve done!) I am courteous enough to not lie about Max 5.
—————————————————-

@Zola

You make a decent point here. Most of the people on this forum can’t handle an open forum. They need rules to protect themselves from vicious trolls, lol.

Often times, we get this sort of half-assed acknowledgment…

"I love the new features of Max 5 and it’s a little slow."

This is sort of the de facto standard reply from a milquetoast. For every discredit they must offer a balance. I imagine they think they’re zen master’s or "good people" or whatever. Some sort of stupid rationalization like that.

I have no problems being a complete nihilist and just calling something out. Max 5 has taken all my beloved speed and replaced it with some stuff (which I wanted).

Max 4: fast, lacking features, text microscopic… LOL.
Max 5: slow, more convenient features than Max 4.

It’s too hard for most people to understand that there’s a no-compromise speed-AND-features reality that they could be having. But instead they treat Cycling like a bunch of delicate flowers and tout what progress has been made in other areas, i.e, friendliness, keycommands, help system, zooming, as being sufficient enough to discredit the need for a fast UI.

"Good enough" just aint great. Max 5 should be great.

@KJG

You’re like a parent on Charlie Brown. All I hear is blah blah blah.

Sincerely,
Dr. Joe Czarfunee
Music teacher at The Christian Academy for One Legged Boys, Utah.



kjg
October 21, 2008 | 1:26 am

your reference frame consists of video games and comic books? :)


October 21, 2008 | 1:43 am

@kjg

Right, well, you can tell that to John Carmack and Stan Lee. The GL which drives your Jitter is constantly being improved in relation to games. Video games will gross more than the Music industry and Movie industry combined this year. Some of the highest grossing movies of ALL TIME are comic book adaptions. Obviously this speaks volumes in itself.

Hey, don’t you have some forward-thinking, cutting-edge, experimental, interactive, wii-mote, so-far-in-into-the-future your great-grand-kids-have-been-dead-for-1000-years, tribute to Xennakis muzik to perform for an audience of rich, elderly, recently-sex-changed women in a run down Bingo hall somewhere East of nowhere?

LOL.


October 21, 2008 | 2:26 am

ZOMG YOU CAN WRITE LONG RUN ON SENTENCES TO INSULT PEOPLE BETTER THAN OTHER PEOPLE CAN AS A LAME ATTEMPT TO TROLL A FORUM TO SPREAD YOUR SENSE OF SUPERIORITY BUT I CAN TYPE IN RUN ON SENTENCES TOO BUT WITH ALL CAPS AND STILL COME OFF AS LESS OF A COMPLETE FUCKWAD LOOSER WHO HAS TO TROLL CYCLING 74S FORUM AND MAKE FUN OF OTHER PEOPLES ART FORM-MUSIC-GENRE-PERFORMANCE-TECHNOLOGY-MASHUP-I-CAN-USE-HYPHENS-TOO BECAUSE THE SOFTWARE YOU USED TO LIKE THAT YOU NOW BITCH ABOUT IS BEING USED BY THE PEOPLE YOU MAKE FUN OF AND IS CHANGING AND EVOLVING IN WAYS YOU DONT LIKE WHICH MAKES YOU SO ANGRY AND UPSET THAT GOD YOU COULD JUST GO ON FOREVER WRITING RUN ON SENTENCES ABOUT IT LIKE THIS ONE BUT NOT AS GOOD AS THIS ONE BECAUSE THIS ONE IS MINE AND ITS NOT YOURS AND GOD GO AWAY EVEN IM GETTING TIRED OF WRITING THIS TROLL BAITING SACK OF CRAP POST BUT I CANT STOP BECAUSE I HAVE A POINT TO MAKE AND I HOPE YOU GET IT.


October 21, 2008 | 2:33 am

The easiest way to avoid feeding the trolls is to ignore them. If you’re using the forum, you should see a link on the right-hand side of the post — "ignore all messages by this user".

If you’re a mailing list user, I’m sure most of you know how to set up "kill files", but if you don’t, email me privately along with the mail client you’re using and I’ll help you set one up.

I know that sometimes it can be quite difficult to differentiate between trolling and legitimate criticism, but an easy way to make that distinction is to look at the posting history of the user in question. Can the bulk of their contributions to the discussion be classified as "negative" ? Do they say the same thing, again and again, only couching it in slightly different terms each time? Do they commonly refer to others in the forum or Cycling 74 employees in an insulting, derogatory manner? Is their posting history balanced out with posts that don’t go on and on and on about their pet peeves? You can use this criteria, along with a healthy dose of common sense, to determine what is and is not a post by a troll.

Let’s face it — time is valuable to all of us. Why waste even a tiny bit of it arguing with someone who’s only interested in lobbing bombs? You have tools at your disposal to avoid getting pulled in to these wasteful timesucks. You can only benefit from using them.


October 21, 2008 | 2:39 am

From: Bill Gates
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:05 AM
To: Jim Allchin
Cc: Chris Jones (WINDOWS); Bharat Shah (NT); Joe Peterson; Will Poole; Brian Valentine; Anoop Gupta (RESEARCH)
Subject: Windows Usability Systematic degradation flame

I am quite disappointed at how Windows Usability has been going backwards and the program management groups don’t drive usability issues.

Let me give you my experience from yesterday.

I decided to download (Moviemaker) and buy the Digital Plus pack … so I went to Microsoft.com. They have a download place so I went there.

The first 5 times I used the site it timed out while trying to bring up the download page. Then after an 8 second delay I got it to come up.

This site is so slow it is unusable.

It wasn’t in the top 5 so I expanded the other 45.

These 45 names are totally confusing. These names make stuff like: C:Documents and SettingsbillgMy DocumentsMy Pictures seem clear.

They are not filtered by the system … and so many of the things are strange.

I tried scoping to Media stuff. Still no moviemaker. I typed in movie. Nothing. I typed in movie maker. Nothing.

So I gave up and sent mail to Amir saying – where is this Moviemaker download? Does it exist?

So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated.

They told me to go to the main page search button and type movie maker (not moviemaker!).

I tried that. The site was pathetically slow but after 6 seconds of waiting up it came.

I thought for sure now I would see a button to just go do the download.

In fact it is more like a puzzle that you get to solve. It told me to go to Windows Update and do a bunch of incantations.

This struck me as completely odd. Why should I have to go somewhere else and do a scan to download moviemaker?

So I went to Windows update. Windows Update decides I need to download a bunch of controls. (Not) just once but multiple times where I get to see weird dialog boxes.

Doesn’t Windows update know some key to talk to Windows?

Then I did the scan. This took quite some time and I was told it was critical for me to download 17megs of stuff.

This is after I was told we were doing delta patches to things but instead just to get 6 things that are labeled in the SCARIEST possible way I had to download 17meg.

So I did the download. That part was fast. Then it wanted to do an install. This took 6 minutes and the machine was so slow I couldn’t use it for anything else during this time.

What the heck is going on during those 6 minutes? That is crazy. This is after the download was finished.

Then it told me to reboot my machine. Why should I do that? I reboot every night — why should I reboot at that time?

So I did the reboot because it INSISTED on it. Of course that meant completely getting rid of all my Outlook state.

So I got back up and running and went to Windows Updale again. I forgot why I was in Windows Update at all since all I wanted was to get Moviemaker.

So I went back to Microsoft.com and looked at the instructions. I have to click on a folder called WindowsXP. Why should I do that? Windows Update knows I am on Windows XP.

What does it mean to have to click on that folder? So I get a bunch of confusing stuff but sure enough one of them is Moviemaker.

So I do the download. The download is fast but the Install takes many minutes. Amazing how slow this thing is.

At some point I get told I need to go get Windows Media Series 9 to download.

So I decide I will go do that. This time I get dialogs saying things like "Open" or "Save". No guidance in the instructions which to do. I have no clue which to do.

The download is fast and the install takes 7 minutes for this thing.

So now I think I am going to have Moviemaker. I go to my add/remove programs place to make sure it is there.

It is not there.

What is there? The following garbage is there. Microsoft Autoupdate Exclusive test package, Microsoft Autoupdate Reboot test package, Microsoft Autoupdate testpackage1. Microsoft AUtoupdate testpackage2, Microsoft Autoupdate Test package3.

Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable? The file system is no longer usable. The registry is not usable. This program listing was one sane place but now it is all crapped up.

But that is just the start of the crap. Later I have listed things like Windows XP Hotfix see Q329048 for more information. What is Q329048? Why are these series of patches listed here? Some of the patches just things like Q810655 instead of saying see Q329048 for more information.

What an absolute mess.

Moviemaker is just not there at all.

So I give up on Moviemaker and decide to download the Digital Plus Package.

I get told I need to go enter a bunch of information about myself.

I enter it all in and because it decides I have mistyped something I have to try again. Of course it has cleared out most of what I typed.

I try (typing) the right stuff in 5 times and it just keeps clearing things out for me to type them in again.

So after more than an hour of craziness and making my programs list garbage and being scared and seeing that Microsoft.com is a terrible website I haven’t run Moviemaker and I haven’t got the plus package.

The lack of attention to usability represented by these experiences blows my mind. I thought we had reached a low with Windows Network places or the messages I get when I try to use 802.11. (don’t you just love that root certificate message?)

When I really get to use the stuff I am sure I will have more feedback.


October 21, 2008 | 2:42 am

Max 5, what an absolute mess.


October 21, 2008 | 2:43 am

LOL!

Damn that Bill Gates, he’s such a troll! Look how negative he is! Obviously he hates Microsoft.


October 21, 2008 | 2:54 am

*WOOSH*

That was the sound of my post going over your head.


October 21, 2008 | 3:22 am

@Wallace Winfrey

Hey, Bill Gates is good on 3 of 4 of your troll criteria. I guess the world’s richest man doesn’t know anything about how to state and address flaws he sees in software, right?

———————————–

Apparently, even the moderator has no idea what a troll is.

A troll doesn’t care about the issue he’s talking about. Period. He’s just here to witness cause and effect and cause chaos.

Fact of the matter is, there are no trolls here, just people who don’t talk, think, or care for your rules, or think like you. Time and time again, this forum has a disposition to obsess over lexical differences instead of staying on the topic. There is a bigger picture and that is Max 5′s speed issue.

I almost want to say I feel persecuted on this forum, but…. What I find time and time again is that people take these moral stances against threads over a silly word or two.

I say, quit trying to control what other people say and think. Take responsibility for your decision to get angry instead of justifying your "anger mode" on account of someone else’s lexical differences. Throwing a tantrum everytime someone uses a choice word or two is about as control-freaky as a person can get.

Not one person so far has had the sense to debate with Zola, or discuss points. It’s all about his choice in language. Yet, if you stopped obsessing about that, you’d see he’s made more positive contributions to this thread than anyone else.

And, with his Bill Gates quote he has effectively put a nail in the head of every last trollophobe in this thread and so on, forever, til the end of eternity. LOL.

Straight forwardness, negativity, and harsh criticism is an attribute that most the successful man on Earth values. And, which any free thinking forum would value if it had the courage to face it’s flaws and improve it’s understanding of things.

Funny still how no ones showed the slightest interest in my interpreter observations. You’d think discovering the potential fix to Max’s speed problems would be a call for discussion.

Hah.


October 21, 2008 | 3:33 am

Quote: vuxivil wrote on Mon, 20 October 2008 22:22
—————————————————-
> Funny still how no ones showed the slightest interest in my interpreter observations. You’d think discovering the potential fix to Max’s speed problems would be a call for discussion.
>
> Hah.
>
—————————————————-

So it’s not about actually fixing the problem, but about someone showing you that they’re interested in your theory by posting about said interest on the forum?

Or are you actually saying that you have some omniscient knowledge that tells you that no one who has read your theory is interested in it?

Maybe people are interested in it but just aren’t interested in talking to you about it.


October 21, 2008 | 5:41 am

What is it about the internet that makes rational people act like this? Do people watch two girls one cup before posting in forums?


October 21, 2008 | 5:59 am

how fast are you programing that 10fps wouldn’t be enough (even though on my computer it sure seems like full 30fps)

are you making more then 10 changes in a second?

side note I think forums need to implement some kind of troll neutralizing device. Is that possible? Like on youtube they have those buttons for thumbs down or "spam" comments and it hides those messages. I would love for BS like this to get removed so I dont end up wasting my time on it. Though I guess I do sometimes take sadistic pleasure in watching people make fools of themselves and seeing vades clever responses.


October 21, 2008 | 6:02 am

http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=showposts&id=6159&so=DESC&rid=4157&S=9a9823a2e429470893ee4eb625782720&start=0

Funny, so you created a forum account just to complain. your a professional troll eh?


October 21, 2008 | 8:21 am

Zola schrieb:
> There’s only a short time on this planet, and it’s not worth being
> driven towards madness to attempt to use Max 5.

But enough time to write these statements… Just don’t use it, then
there is no need to complain…

> Max 5 responds to you a few hundred milliseconds later.

You could have gained enough milliseconds to compensate for the rest of
your life by not writing this long complaint I guess…

Not that I’d say Max 5 is fast, its slower responding than Max 4, we
knew this from the very beginning. So what?
Its not that bad, that I’d go back, I even have a patch that makes my
Powerbook crawl if I have to edit it (+50 objects and lots of
connections and no way to simplify by encapsulation btw…).
Still, because of the other advantages of Max 5 this would not change my
mind. Its a pretty rare occasion, and I bet on a more recent machine it
would not crawl that slow…
I actually hate it, when I am forced to switch to Max 4, because of the
lack of Pluggo compatibility…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


October 22, 2008 | 5:31 am

Presenting….

More quotes from people with mind numbingly low standards, brought to you by Spumco:

> "how fast are you programing that 10fps wouldn’t be enough?" -AxiomCrux

You’re right, silly me. In fact, 5fps would probably be better, as 10 frames sounds too selfish/hedonistic.

> "I even have a patch that makes my Powerbook crawl if I have to edit it (+50 objects and lots of connections and no way to simplify by encapsulation btw…)." -stefantiedje

Dragging around 50 ovals is a HUGE TASK for any graphics card, are definitely too much to ask of a computer these days. Maybe in 10 years we’ll get to that point. Let’s just be grateful with what we got.

You both get to join the "Zero Tolerance For Good Software" club I’ve created to honor those champions of low-standards in software that distinguish themselves amongst us. I’m sure there are others who think moving around 50 objects at 10fps is just fine and dandy and will earn their badge someday, too.

Members are also required to have a complete lack of imagination to conceive of a Max where 1000 objects being dragged around would have very little, if any, performance penalties.

Cycling may have missed the mark, but thank god there’s people out there like Stefan and Axiom to throw away their hard earned money on molasses versions of Max/MSP and are willing to defend it from becoming respectable software.

…I salute you both.


October 22, 2008 | 9:23 am

Haha, I love to read threads like these.

Myself, i’m kinda in between both camps. On one hand, i think it’s inevitable an update like this is introduced. It’s necessary to update Max so we can continue to amaze people with technological features.

On the other hand, a slow interface can really make or break a program. I’ve come across this mostly in gaming, where slow response times (like 20ms) are insanely annoying and will make you quit that particular game. I think that i’m a relatively fast Maxer (in bursts), so working with Max5 may get on my nerver.

Currently, I only test stuff out in Max5, we don’t use it yet (as the SDK was just recently released and it’s a bit of work to adapt).



MJ
October 22, 2008 | 10:01 am

i’ve asked this before but..

how many people actualy went from max 4 to max5
can we poll ?

i’m still max4 ….

>Haha, I love to read threads like these.
>
>Myself, i’m kinda in between both camps. On one hand, i think it’s
>inevitable an update like this is introduced. It’s necessary to
>update Max so we can continue to amaze people with technological
>features.
>
>On the other hand, a slow interface can really make or break a
>program. I’ve come across this mostly in gaming, where slow response
>times (like 20ms) are insanely annoying and will make you quit that
>particular game. I think that i’m a relatively fast Maxer (in
>bursts), so working with Max5 may get on my nerver.
>
>Currently, I only test stuff out in Max5, we don’t use it yet (as
>the SDK was just recently released and it’s a bit of work to adapt).
>–
>SmadSteck – http://www.smadsteck.nl
>Hard- and software for interactive audiovisual sampling


October 22, 2008 | 10:42 am

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Bas van der Graaff

wrote:

>
>
> Currently, I only test stuff out in Max5, we don’t use it yet (as the SDK
> was just recently released and it’s a bit of work to adapt).
>

What SDK? Did I miss something?


October 22, 2008 | 12:22 pm

Well, i heard something about it being released, thought it was already the case, but it’s probably soon enough then. Sorry bout getting your hopes up…i’m not that hyped myself, it only means extra work^^.


October 22, 2008 | 12:39 pm

Hi,

It is just about attitude, but my goal’s not really to do ethics, but …

Well, I think there is no real insulting attitude from Zola.
Someone who tells such a thing:

"Max 5 is senile,
just like David Z. for lacking the foresight when he decided to use JUCE."

———can only be humor, don’t you think so?————-

But in the meantime I can understand that some confuse the essence and the formal way to express it.

Yes, it is always better to come with precaution, but for me, if this thread is stamped as an "insulting one", it is because -YOU- receive and made it insulting.
Please don’t be too nervous, or institutional …
We also need heretic people to go forward!
Integrism in all forms is the dead of mind.

I think Mr.Z and its company can defend themself on that if it needs, and they don’t need help from users about these assertion!

Finally, some love Max5, others -tell- they hate because they are disappointed, but the real problem is that many Max users wonder why (slowness, bugs etc.) and quest any answers.

I think many users need to be assured that further upgrade will enhance the software (we know the answer but ..) and probably a kind of "communication", an email, a column in the web site or something from C74 could help many of us to understand better.

I’m waiting for such a thing to go to Max5.

Thanks for reading, sorry for the english.

Derrick


October 22, 2008 | 12:50 pm

Quote: Kyred wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 06:39
—————————————————-
> "Max 5 is senile,
> just like David Z. for lacking the foresight when he decided to use JUCE."
>
> ———can only be humor, don’t you think so?————-

Nope, not really. Spiteful sarcasm, perhaps?

> Yes, it is always better to come with precaution, but for me, if this thread is stamped as an "insulting one", it is because -YOU- receive and made it insulting.

Interpretation only goes so far. If a stranger punches me in the face (for example), we can all conclude that it was not an act of kindness.

> We also need heretic people to go forward!

In this instance, I think courtesy works better. Feel free to see how far being an ass gets you.

> I think Mr.Z and its company can defend themself on that if it needs, and they don’t need help from users about these assertion!

It’s not really about helping Cycling 74, it’s more about (I think) what kind of tone/attitude (most?) users want on this forum.


October 22, 2008 | 2:04 pm

Sorry, not sure.
I think the violence of the words comes from your mind.
For me it is easy to accept "tellings" and trying to read what is beyond these.
The remainder is wrapping, it is not ass kick and else,
and I think the kind of tone/attitude most users want on this topic and other topics on the same enquiry is more on the background.

Do you see?


October 22, 2008 | 2:39 pm

Quote: Kyred wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 08:04
—————————————————-
> Sorry, not sure.
> I think the violence of the words comes from your mind.
> For me it is easy to accept "tellings" and trying to read what is beyond these.
> The remainder is wrapping, it is not ass kick and else,
> and I think the kind of tone/attitude most users want on this topic and other topics on the same enquiry is more on the background.
>
> Do you see?
—————————————————-

LOL, I said the exact same thing to oivindi.

quote:me to oivindi
———————————–
"Here’s the difference:

- You read through Zola’s post and immediately saw one or two choice words and you raised the flag about that. You completely ignored his frustration, his comparisons, and it’s validity to an ongoing issue that has been raised over Max 5.

- I read through Zolas post and read a good amount of relevant points and ignored the negative things. I’m not interested in punishing Zola for being upset with Max, despite the fact he may have used some words which don’t accurately paint the picture of Max’s developers.

I see the bigger issue, a slow Max. You, on the other hand, are obsessed with finding lexical issues and ignoring the topic. You did it with Zola, then you did it with my post."
———————————–

Calling David senile is nothing. It’s rude only to people that take it seriously. Obviously he’s not senile. Knowing that from the beginning, what’s the point in getting pissed?

Zola said something pretty relevant. There’s not enough time on the planet to be dealing with Max. There’s also not enough time to _not solve problems_ because you think one or two words is insensitive. Where else do we see this? Politics. One little word and the other party is going crazy. LOL. It’s pathetic, and in truth, you guys deserve to be trolled for clinging so desperately to your notions of whatever you think the rules are.

David isn’t senile. Max 5 is slow. More people than "just a few" have stated this. The other ones, such as Axiom and Stefan, have shown a severe case of denial.

What’s more is that the majority of people that have a problem with the speed can’t keep the issue isolated. They have to sweep it under the rug by stating that Max has "new features".

Uhhhhhh? Hello McFly.

New features don’t fix the speed issue. You can add a thousand great new features and they’re still completely irrelevant to the slow canvas.

It’s sort of as far fetched as saying:
"Man, that movie was really terrible……but, at least they had popcorn!"

Well, sure, fine. You got popcorn, you went out with your friends, you’re making the best of a good situation. Goody goody goo. But, the movie still sucks. You paid for mediocrity and you even went so far as to make a good situation out of it, hence supporting future mediocrity.

And, thanks to many of you, Max 5 still sucks. Despite however much you love the developers and feel like they’re your best mates and you adore and respect them and how they gave you a few fun things such as neato colors, zooming, and keycommands. (all welcome additions)

The fact is, that is bad topic encapsulation. You guys need to go back and read the encapsulation tutorial and apply its principles to the issue that’s being discussed instead of grabbing for straws in your defense of Max.

I have a different value system than most people. Inadvertently, it would seem it is along the lines of Bill Gates. LOL. After reading Zola’s post with Gates’ email, I instantly understood a signiciant truth in regards to whatever, call it social darwinism or poo, whatever you want.

Straight forwardness, brutal honesty, and harsh criticism have their place. And Max 5 deserves a beating because it’s without a doubt the most disappointing and latency ridden, worst case scenario I could have possibly imagined.

Niceness is a great thing, and I’m sure most people would rate that very high on their list of requisites. But don’t be so dogmatic in your allegiance to all things warm and fuzzy that you wind up crippling the things that matter to you; such as Max.

Back on track, a lot of people here settle for mediocrity. And that’s what’s happened with Max 5. We have tons of dudes _defending_ mediocrity and it’s detestable.

Max 5 is not prime time. Pointing the finger at JUCE is premature, though. Where are the JUCE benchmarks? We have QT and GTK, but where’s the JUCE? If I had to guess, I’d say QT was probably in the vicinity of 10x or more faster at drawing stuff than JUCE, but, if we’re stuck with it. so what though, as long as the fix isn’t replacing the GUI library.

I personally think the fix is removing excessive outlet sorting and constant graph reinterpretation while dragging things around. I have evidence to support that this is the case. Seems like a pretty quick thing to try out, too.


October 22, 2008 | 3:56 pm

"Calling David senile is nothing. It’s rude only to people that take it
seriously. Obviously he’s not senile. Knowing that from the beginning,
what’s the point in getting pissed?"

would there be anything you could call him that would seem rude to people
who didn’t take it seriously, or is nothing out of bounds?

obviously he’s not senile, so why call him that?

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:39 AM, vuxivl wrote:

>
> Quote: Kyred wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 08:04
> —————————————————-
> > Sorry, not sure.
> > I think the violence of the words comes from your mind.
> > For me it is easy to accept "tellings" and trying to read what is beyond
> these.
> > The remainder is wrapping, it is not ass kick and else,
> > and I think the kind of tone/attitude most users want on this topic and
> other topics on the same enquiry is more on the background.
> >
> > Do you see?
> —————————————————-
>
> LOL, I said the exact same thing to oivindi.
>
> quote:me to oivindi
> ———————————–
> "Here’s the difference:
>
> – You read through Zola’s post and immediately saw one or two choice words
> and you raised the flag about that. You completely ignored his frustration,
> his comparisons, and it’s validity to an ongoing issue that has been raised
> over Max 5.
>
> – I read through Zolas post and read a good amount of relevant points and
> ignored the negative things. I’m not interested in punishing Zola for being
> upset with Max, despite the fact he may have used some words which don’t
> accurately paint the picture of Max’s developers.
>
> I see the bigger issue, a slow Max. You, on the other hand, are obsessed
> with finding lexical issues and ignoring the topic. You did it with Zola,
> then you did it with my post."
> ———————————–
>
> Calling David senile is nothing. It’s rude only to people that take it
> seriously. Obviously he’s not senile. Knowing that from the beginning,
> what’s the point in getting pissed?
>
> Zola said something pretty relevant. There’s not enough time on the planet
> to be dealing with Max. There’s also not enough time to _not solve
> problems_ because you think one or two words is insensitive. Where else do
> we see this? Politics. One little word and the other party is going crazy.
> LOL. It’s pathetic, and in truth, you guys deserve to be trolled for
> clinging so desperately to your notions of whatever you think the rules are.
>
> David isn’t senile. Max 5 is slow. More people than "just a few" have
> stated this. The other ones, such as Axiom and Stefan, have shown a severe
> case of denial.
>
> What’s more is that the majority of people that have a problem with the
> speed can’t keep the issue isolated. They have to sweep it under the rug by
> stating that Max has "new features".
>
> Uhhhhhh? Hello McFly.
>
> New features don’t fix the speed issue. You can add a thousand great new
> features and they’re still completely irrelevant to the slow canvas.
>
> It’s sort of as far fetched as saying:
> "Man, that movie was really terrible……but, at least they had popcorn!"
>
> Well, sure, fine. You got popcorn, you went out with your friends, you’re
> making the best of a good situation. Goody goody goo. But, the movie still
> sucks. You paid for mediocrity and you even went so far as to make a good
> situation out of it, hence supporting future mediocrity.
>
> And, thanks to many of you, Max 5 still sucks. Despite however much you
> love the developers and feel like they’re your best mates and you adore and
> respect them and how they gave you a few fun things such as neato colors,
> zooming, and keycommands. (all welcome additions)
>
> The fact is, that is bad topic encapsulation. You guys need to go back and
> read the encapsulation tutorial and apply its principles to the issue that’s
> being discussed instead of grabbing for straws in your defense of Max.
>
> I have a different value system than most people. Inadvertently, it would
> seem it is along the lines of Bill Gates. LOL. After reading Zola’s post
> with Gates’ email, I instantly understood a signiciant truth in regards to
> whatever, call it social darwinism or poo, whatever you want.
>
> Straight forwardness, brutal honesty, and harsh criticism have their place.
> And Max 5 deserves a beating because it’s without a doubt the most
> disappointing and latency ridden, worst case scenario I could have possibly
> imagined.
>
> Niceness is a great thing, and I’m sure most people would rate that very
> high on their list of requisites. But don’t be so dogmatic in your
> allegiance to all things warm and fuzzy that you wind up crippling the
> things that matter to you; such as Max.
>
> Back on track, a lot of people here settle for mediocrity. And that’s
> what’s happened with Max 5. We have tons of dudes _defending_ mediocrity and
> it’s detestable.
>
> Max 5 is not prime time. Pointing the finger at JUCE is premature, though.
> Where are the JUCE benchmarks? We have QT and GTK, but where’s the JUCE?
> If I had to guess, I’d say QT was probably in the vicinity of 10x or more
> faster at drawing stuff than JUCE, but, if we’re stuck with it. so what
> though, as long as the fix isn’t replacing the GUI library.
>
> I personally think the fix is removing excessive outlet sorting and
> constant graph reinterpretation while dragging things around. I have
> evidence to support that this is the case. Seems like a pretty quick thing
> to try out, too.
>
>
> –
> Max 5: Looks like OSX, performs like Vista.
>
>


October 22, 2008 | 4:11 pm

"Calling David senile is nothing. It’s rude only to people that take it
seriously. Obviously he’s not senile. Knowing that from the beginning,
what’s the point in getting pissed?"

more to the point, why shouldn’t we take it seriously? obviously, it wasn’t
meant literally, but it was clearly an aspersion on David’s judgment. What
in the context indicates to you that this aspersion wasn’t intended rudely?

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:56 AM, George Locke <
george.locke.maxmsp@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Calling David senile is nothing. It’s rude only to people that take it
> seriously. Obviously he’s not senile. Knowing that from the beginning,
> what’s the point in getting pissed?"
>
> would there be anything you could call him that would seem rude to people
> who didn’t take it seriously, or is nothing out of bounds?
>
> obviously he’s not senile, so why call him that?
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:39 AM, vuxivl wrote:
>
>>
>> Quote: Kyred wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 08:04
>> —————————————————-
>> > Sorry, not sure.
>> > I think the violence of the words comes from your mind.
>> > For me it is easy to accept "tellings" and trying to read what is beyond
>> these.
>> > The remainder is wrapping, it is not ass kick and else,
>> > and I think the kind of tone/attitude most users want on this topic and
>> other topics on the same enquiry is more on the background.
>> >
>> > Do you see?
>> —————————————————-
>>
>> LOL, I said the exact same thing to oivindi.
>>
>> quote:me to oivindi
>> ———————————–
>> "Here’s the difference:
>>
>> – You read through Zola’s post and immediately saw one or two choice words
>> and you raised the flag about that. You completely ignored his frustration,
>> his comparisons, and it’s validity to an ongoing issue that has been raised
>> over Max 5.
>>
>> – I read through Zolas post and read a good amount of relevant points and
>> ignored the negative things. I’m not interested in punishing Zola for being
>> upset with Max, despite the fact he may have used some words which don’t
>> accurately paint the picture of Max’s developers.
>>
>> I see the bigger issue, a slow Max. You, on the other hand, are obsessed
>> with finding lexical issues and ignoring the topic. You did it with Zola,
>> then you did it with my post."
>> ———————————–
>>
>> Calling David senile is nothing. It’s rude only to people that take it
>> seriously. Obviously he’s not senile. Knowing that from the beginning,
>> what’s the point in getting pissed?
>>
>> Zola said something pretty relevant. There’s not enough time on the planet
>> to be dealing with Max. There’s also not enough time to _not solve
>> problems_ because you think one or two words is insensitive. Where else do
>> we see this? Politics. One little word and the other party is going crazy.
>> LOL. It’s pathetic, and in truth, you guys deserve to be trolled for
>> clinging so desperately to your notions of whatever you think the rules are.
>>
>> David isn’t senile. Max 5 is slow. More people than "just a few" have
>> stated this. The other ones, such as Axiom and Stefan, have shown a severe
>> case of denial.
>>
>> What’s more is that the majority of people that have a problem with the
>> speed can’t keep the issue isolated. They have to sweep it under the rug by
>> stating that Max has "new features".
>>
>> Uhhhhhh? Hello McFly.
>>
>> New features don’t fix the speed issue. You can add a thousand great new
>> features and they’re still completely irrelevant to the slow canvas.
>>
>> It’s sort of as far fetched as saying:
>> "Man, that movie was really terrible……but, at least they had popcorn!"
>>
>> Well, sure, fine. You got popcorn, you went out with your friends, you’re
>> making the best of a good situation. Goody goody goo. But, the movie still
>> sucks. You paid for mediocrity and you even went so far as to make a good
>> situation out of it, hence supporting future mediocrity.
>>
>> And, thanks to many of you, Max 5 still sucks. Despite however much you
>> love the developers and feel like they’re your best mates and you adore and
>> respect them and how they gave you a few fun things such as neato colors,
>> zooming, and keycommands. (all welcome additions)
>>
>> The fact is, that is bad topic encapsulation. You guys need to go back
>> and read the encapsulation tutorial and apply its principles to the issue
>> that’s being discussed instead of grabbing for straws in your defense of
>> Max.
>>
>> I have a different value system than most people. Inadvertently, it would
>> seem it is along the lines of Bill Gates. LOL. After reading Zola’s post
>> with Gates’ email, I instantly understood a signiciant truth in regards to
>> whatever, call it social darwinism or poo, whatever you want.
>>
>> Straight forwardness, brutal honesty, and harsh criticism have their
>> place. And Max 5 deserves a beating because it’s without a doubt the most
>> disappointing and latency ridden, worst case scenario I could have possibly
>> imagined.
>>
>> Niceness is a great thing, and I’m sure most people would rate that very
>> high on their list of requisites. But don’t be so dogmatic in your
>> allegiance to all things warm and fuzzy that you wind up crippling the
>> things that matter to you; such as Max.
>>
>> Back on track, a lot of people here settle for mediocrity. And that’s
>> what’s happened with Max 5. We have tons of dudes _defending_ mediocrity and
>> it’s detestable.
>>
>> Max 5 is not prime time. Pointing the finger at JUCE is premature,
>> though. Where are the JUCE benchmarks? We have QT and GTK, but where’s the
>> JUCE? If I had to guess, I’d say QT was probably in the vicinity of 10x or
>> more faster at drawing stuff than JUCE, but, if we’re stuck with it. so what
>> though, as long as the fix isn’t replacing the GUI library.
>>
>> I personally think the fix is removing excessive outlet sorting and
>> constant graph reinterpretation while dragging things around. I have
>> evidence to support that this is the case. Seems like a pretty quick thing
>> to try out, too.
>>
>>
>> –
>> Max 5: Looks like OSX, performs like Vista.
>>
>>
>
>


October 22, 2008 | 4:21 pm


October 22, 2008 | 4:22 pm

vade schrieb:
> AND I HOPE YOU GET IT.

I fear there is no hope, they go the way all trolls go…

Let us keep our fun at least…


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


October 22, 2008 | 4:45 pm

he is funny though, no?


October 22, 2008 | 5:42 pm

im using max 4 as I am waiting for ambisonics ambimonitor object to be
ported to max5.

i find max5 extremely powerful and useful for the task i require it to
do.

i remember when apple introduced mac osx, i stayed almost one year
switching between the 2 operating systems
os9 and osx.
like any other thing new though, …

cheers

On 22 Oct 2008, at 11:42, Thijs Koerselman wrote:

>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Bas van der Graaff

> wrote:
>
>
> Currently, I only test stuff out in Max5, we don’t use it yet (as
> the SDK was just recently released and it’s a bit of work to adapt).
>
>
> What SDK? Did I miss something?
>


October 22, 2008 | 6:27 pm

Hmm, RE: Max5 response time:

Why would any skilled coder try to drag a network of hundreds of objects and connections around?

Why would they even tolerate spaghetti code of this unsupportable nature?

Why would they curse the app for being sluggish during such a silly programming act? And why would a failure of the app to allow this redraw nightmare be reason enough to ignore the many *genuine* coding improvements in the new release, to the point of obsessive forum abuse?

someone is on a dangerously obsessive rant.

Thanks for any C74 effort to clean this up.
Oh, BTW – the l-r eval updates mentioned in this could be quite enough to cause this perceived ‘slowness’ in the app. Fine debugging there!!
Give C74 a freekin’ chance, fer bob’s sake!!!

Folk’s : I learned years ago in different language: if the method is several pages long, and difficult to comprehend as a whole, it probably is in need of a refactoring.
Same stuff applies (even more?) to Max programming.

If you dissagree, how many decades of programming experience and years of FULL employment as coder (& how many successfully sold applications & how many languages) are to be found in your resume?

Compared to David Z.?

Please give up your ego, and accept that you are on very weak grounds when you insult David or Max V.

P.S.: In my opinion the new help structure alone is worth several hours of dragging ‘waits’ . How is your opinion better or truer than mine?

Annoyed at the complaints, happy to see that rational research is being applied,

Dr. Charles Baker, Ph.D.
Sr. Production Support Developer,
Citizen’s Property Insurance Corporation
of Florida, Tallahassee FL.
Ph.D. in MusicComposition/Computer Music, 1993, U.C.S.B.


October 22, 2008 | 9:20 pm

Quote: george.locke.maxmsp wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 09:56
—————————————————-
>> "Calling David senile is nothing. It’s rude only to people that take it seriously. Obviously he’s not senile. Knowing that from the beginning, what’s the point in getting pissed?"

> would there be anything you could call him that would seem rude to people who didn’t take it seriously, or is nothing out of obviously he’s not senile, so why call him that?
—————————————————-

Simple.

If he was a troll, this line would be his bait. Taking the bait means you’ve given Zola what he wanted. Hence, you fail.

If he’s not a troll, then maybe he’s just frustrated, and there is room for discussion here. Taking issue with someone who doesn’t think or talk like you just because they left a loophole for you exploit versus seeing the bigger picture, the max 5 canvas issue. To me, this means you, yourself, would rather sit around and worry about small issues rather than large ones. You’d rather waste time on petty things than important ones. Hence, you fail again.

Seems to me a lose/lose situation if you take either route. You’re missing opportunities you can’t even perceive because you’re viewing the world through a narrow minded view of demanding everyone be over-the-top nice, even if there actual feelings would justify being angry.

Zola is right. Max 5 sucks. "Senile" is a word that’s actually not too far fetched from how off the mark the speed issues are.

Zola is right on another thing, too. Life is too short. Either for staying with incomplete software, or, according to my morals, for throwing a temper tantrum over someone using the word "senile". Sure its rude, but please, try and see that this is apart of a bigger picture and not merely some trolling issue.

Zola is right a third time- one person’s troll is another person’s richest man in on the planet. Labeling someone a troll is not objective, and the criteria of even the moderator of this forum would perceive Bill Gates as a hardcore troll.

I am right in saying that all the people that Ive had defended Max 5 so far have had incredibly low standards, and that they are unable to effectively stay on topic about this issue. Topic encapsulation is a major problem when you have a bunch of people obsessing over a stupid word like "senile".

Either way, it’s not worth getting angry about at all. Nothing is worth getting angry about. It’s not even worth getting angry over Max 5 for me, even if it embarrasses me deeply.

For the record, I’ve submitted bug reports a few days back, around the time Emmanual Jordan labeled me a troll MERELY FOR STATING THERE MIGHT BE REINTERPRETATION ISSUE WHEN DRAGGING. If that isn’t over the top trollophobia, I don’t know what is. And that’s from a guy who works with Cycling.

Thanks.


October 22, 2008 | 9:24 pm

Quote: vuxivil wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 08:39
—————————————————-
> – You read through Zola’s post and immediately saw one or two choice words and you raised the flag about that. You completely ignored his frustration, his comparisons, and it’s validity to an ongoing issue that has been raised over Max 5.
>
> – I read through Zolas post and read a good amount of relevant points and ignored the negative things. I’m not interested in punishing Zola for being upset with Max, despite the fact he may have used some words which don’t accurately paint the picture of Max’s developers.
>
> I see the bigger issue, a slow Max. You, on the other hand, are obsessed with finding lexical issues and ignoring the topic. You did it with Zola, then you did it with my post."
—————————————————-

It seems like you guys are starting to pick up on a pattern here. People get distracted from the main point of your message when you insert unnecessary emotional comments in the middle of it. I have a novel solution which should be easily understandable by someone with your obviously extraordinary intelligence: Don’t use insults and other emotional comments in your posts. It’s a pretty simple solution. Let me know if you have any questions or problems with it.

If the comments "David Z. is senile" and "c74 is retarded" are obviously untrue and are only mentioned as a joke or as a cheap shot, then why mention them at all? It’s obvious from your comments above that you now realize that the only purpose those comments serve is to distract people from the real content of your message. If your entire message was only comprised of 100% real content, then no one could possibly be distracted by anything. See how that works?

All of this is unbelievably obvious to any normal person; it’s obvious that you’re just arguing for the sake of argument, and soon you will realize that no one cares. The majority of people on this forum are polite, and they expect that everyone else maintains that level of decency and professionalism. When someone posts a comment that is impolite, then people on this forum are first going to deal with the rude comments, and worry about the content of your message later. This is how people get things done in a civilized society.

It’s not that hard to be polite. Honest. Try it. Then maybe we can go back to having a forum that deals with issues efficiently rather than the current forum where people think they have to resort to calling people senile and retarded to get their point across (especially ironic is the fact that the same people you’re calling senile and retarded are the ONLY people that can fix the problem you’re describing… not too smart).

Quote: vuxivil wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 08:39
—————————————————-
> There’s not enough time on the planet to be dealing with Max.
—————————————————-

I agree completely. So, in the interest of maximum efficiency, let’s all agree to keep emotions and egos out of our bug reports and feature requests. That should make things go a lot quicker. If that’s not possible, then I will quickly be blocking all messages composed by you and any other rude users, and I encourage other users of this forum to do the same if this continues.


October 22, 2008 | 9:25 pm

Quote: stefantiedje wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 10:21
—————————————————-
> If you want to get back, just ignore the nettiquette centered posts, and
> stay straight with the issue that seems to be your interest: the slow
> behavior of Max. Do not respond to any attempt to control you, but bring
> out the points and no word more (any attempt to control others, be it
> members or cycling staff simply and obviously doesn’t work…)
—————————————————-

Well said, thanks.


October 22, 2008 | 9:36 pm

Quote: vuxivil wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 08:39
—————————————————-
> I personally think the fix is removing excessive outlet sorting and constant graph reinterpretation while dragging things around. I have evidence to support that this is the case. Seems like a pretty quick thing to try out, too.
—————————————————-

In an attempt to get to the heart of the issue, I created a thread to deal with this possibility without any insults being thrown around. Despite Zola’s attempted hijacking of the thread, I got a quick answer from David Z. debunking this theory:

Quote: David Zicarelli wrote
—————————————————-
> If max’s recalculations of object order while dragging is slowing the program down considerably

As I said before, outlet sorting is not the source of performance problems when dragging large numbers of objects.

David Z.
—————————————————-

So, I think we can put that one to bed.


October 22, 2008 | 9:44 pm

Quote: stefantiedje wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 10:21
—————————————————-
> > It’s kind of like saying… "Hey, I just bought Doom 3, and I love
> > playing at 10 FPS.
>
> I bet that even on a fast computer even Doom 3 would drop from time to
> time a frame. If Max would always be that slow, not only gamers would
> complain, all would complain…
—————————————————-

This is simply not true. Ive tested Max 5 on many computers and the performance problems scaled with the CPU, and not the GPU. Being as such many of our CPUs I tested were within a few years of each other that I used when testing, I am not surprised the results were more closely related to the CPU than whatever GPU i threw in.

CPU == Graph
GPU == Object drawing


October 22, 2008 | 10:57 pm

On 22 oct. 08, at 23:20, vuxivl wrote:

> For the record, I’ve submitted bug reports a few days back, around
> the time Emmanual Jordan labeled me a troll MERELY FOR STATING THERE
> MIGHT BE REINTERPRETATION ISSUE WHEN DRAGGING. If that isn’t over
> the top trollophobia, I don’t know what is. And that’s from a guy
> who works with Cycling.

For god sake, continue being a troll, but at least could you spell my
name properly! And as David wrote already it a few times, the patch
being reinterpreted when dragging doesn’t cost much CPU.

ej


October 23, 2008 | 1:56 am

Your pretty good at clipping my comments down to take my quote out of context, maybe you should become a writer McCain’s anti obama Ads.


October 23, 2008 | 12:52 pm

> Hmm, RE: Max5 response time:
>
> Why would any skilled coder try to drag a network of hundreds of objects and
> connections around?
>
> Why would they even tolerate spaghetti code of this unsupportable nature?
You may just want to drag several bpatchers that contain each many graphical
objects. Please don’t assume that only stupid coders drag many objects.
It is not by insulting that you will convince.


October 23, 2008 | 2:28 pm

> Hmm, RE: Max5 response time:
>
>> Why would any skilled coder try to drag a network of hundreds >>of objects and
>> connections around?
>>
>> Why would they even tolerate spaghetti code of this >>unsupportable nature?
>You may just want to drag several bpatchers that contain each >many graphical
>objects. Please don’t assume that only stupid coders drag many >objects.
>It is not by insulting that you will convince.

These are not insults.
They are observations of coding issues involved with this complaint from the point of view of a tired old and experienced programmer, who has seen complaints of slowness attributable to poor coding in several languages and development environments, and *almost* always (note, not always), it (the slowness) is more due to the user’s actual implementaton than systemic problems in the language.
I was/am saying nothing more than any competant teacher of programming would say.

And, those 4-8 seconds of ‘wait’ on dragging the bpatchers around
(n’ this dragging is in edit mode?!??!?!?!?) CANNOT POSSIBLY be more of a programming detriment than the new help system, the presentation mode, and the object inspectors are programming benefits.

I do not know why prople think a different toolkit will make the app all they want.
I personally think Qt apps look very amature and unfinished. And I have said as much to TrollTech. A Linux prejudice showing up here?
JUCE appears to be a much fully implemented toolset, as far as multimedia applications go.
If Qt is the answer, you go ahead, start re-writing PD the use Qt interfaces…
I think it is farly sure David will not port Max5 to Qt.

No insults! to me, these are just legitimate programming issues!!!

Char lieB


October 23, 2008 | 2:44 pm

Any references to Qt were only regarding the use of Qt to make an empty window for vector graphics.


October 23, 2008 | 2:56 pm

People worrying about 100 items..

Check out the QGraphicsView framework.

http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/graphicsview.html

"Graphics View uses a BSP (Binary Space Partitioning) tree to provide very fast item discovery, and as a result of this, it can visualize large scenes in real-time, even with millions of items."

All in vector. It also supports native Qt widgets now.

QGraphicsView is Qt’s equivalent of the max canvas– it’s an observable scene which holds objects in free coordinates. CHECK the demos of this thing..

Trolltech has taken a liking to it, and they’re putting a lot of work in.



f.e
October 23, 2008 | 4:36 pm


October 23, 2008 | 5:46 pm

Just think of how much incredible high-quality art you could be making if you could freely drag "millions" of objects around in a patcher at amazing speeds. And to think that David Z. is personally preventing you from doing so due to his obstinate refusal to take the obvious step of rewriting his code in Qt, which would be trivial since they have something that sounds like it is exactly like the patcher! How can he live with himself?

This BS about Qt being able to draw a zillion times faster than JUCE has nothing to do with Max’s ability to drag objects around. It is also an attempt to use irrelevant technical "benchmarks" by individuals who have no idea how our code works to scare you into thinking that Max is "hopelessly slow" despite your own experience that it is not. These tests merely prove that, if you write a naive implementation of some graphics algorithm where you feel the need to redraw a line over and over again, faster than anyone can actually see it change, you will see performance differences. But most of the drawing in the Max UI is not vector-based. It is copying cached bitmaps or stroking and filling rectangles, which is significantly faster. Vector stuff is minimized using a layering scheme that eliminates unnecessary redrawing. So even if the vector code were 100 times faster, it wouldn’t really matter. Furthermore, the UI is not slowing down the real-time part of the software, because we assign real-time computation to higher-priority threads, and even within the low-priority thread, we throttle redrawing to happen no faster than a certain frame rate.

However, in the case of dragging large numbers of objects around, we had never put these types of optimizations in place, and furthermore we had an algorithm that performed updates that grew exponentially as the number of objects being moved increased. We are now in the process of addressing this specific problem, and I am confident that those of you who feel compelled to drag around lots of objects will notice the improvement. But, I am sure there will be others who will try dragging 30,000 objects around in the next version, find the performance unacceptable, and decide that Max 5 is still hopeless. We are all free to create our own reality.

David Z.


October 23, 2008 | 5:57 pm

Nicely put, straight from the horses mouth…

Thanks David Zicarelli…


October 23, 2008 | 7:27 pm

I’m locking this thread. Mailing list users — please don’t continue to reply to this thread on the list, OK?

thanks,

w


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