Andrew Benson

Get the details here:
https://cycling74.com/sale


max-6-day-sale-35-off-max-products-even-mira-and-gen-until-july-12

Schade das es kein skonto fur Max4Live gibt.

And I have no idea why I chose German ? Weird.

Ich glaube, dass est ist weil Sie (von Cycling) brauchen Abletons... agreement ? ;)

(ach für so lange habe ich kein Deutsch gesprochen.)

Ich glaube, dass est ist weil Sie (von Cycling) brauchen Abletons... agreement ? ;)
(ach für so lange habe ich kein Deutsch gesprochen.)


Oh come on guys! I purchased mira yesterday and it was barely out for a few weeks. That is not fair! Ok, giving an old program like max a dicount, I purchased 2 years ago ... fine! I can live with that. But it is really a rip of to offer a new program and offering a 35% discount only a few weeks later. Definitively not how you treat customers ... shame on you ...

I think a 35% rebate for any MIRA purchasers would be appropriate, don't you?

Yeah a bit shitty to be an early buyer....

especially if you bought it as a windows user when there were no details saying it wasn't yet available for Windows....

I haven't bought Mira but I can feel the pain of those who did, 35% is no small number..

OK. I was so naive to buy my full-priced copy of MIRA "beta".

will a fabulous auto-IOS-compiling GEN 2.0 version be out next week?

OK. I was so naive to buy my full-priced copy of MIRA "beta".
I'd like to step into GEN world now.
Before I buy,
will a fabulous auto-IOS-compiling GEN 2.0 version be out next week?
:-)


Shitty to be an early adaptor? This is pretty much as shitty as it gets ... you guys (cycling74) completely lost me there!

Shitty to be an early adaptor? This is pretty much as shitty as it gets ... you guys (cycling74) completely lost me there!
I actually expect an apology for this!


not very fair for a windows os mira early buyer :-). sad market laws?

I've asked them to refund my 35% (windows user) - see that they say....

1) It's £35 (in many respects that's fair, but in the the general app store 'ecosystem', it's certainly a premium item, especially given that it serves such a niche and isn't a more widely applicable controller e.g. Lemur).

2) It cost a lot, launched with hype, and was a bit buggy (the first few posts on the release thread are all bug reports and some people asking about beta testing).

3) It's not Windows compatible, and that wasn't made immediately obvious.

4) Less than three weeks after launch - after addressing a couple of previous issues - the price gets slashed (I just bought it as a result).

I've supported Cycling '74 and Max as a commercial product despite a bit of lagging in terms of functionality vs. Pd/OpenFrameworks/Processing et al., but Mira's been a bit of a rocky road so far. I hope everyone affected by these issues gets refunds/rebates.

(Just my own immediate opinions on this issue, I still love you guys in general, please don't ban me etc.)

Is there an iTunes mechanism to refund % en masse? I don't know how the backend of that stuff works.

As you said, the bugginess doesn't help, as it was 50% premium to pay to get the early beta version...

Is there an iTunes mechanism to refund % en masse? I don't know how the backend of that stuff works. 

As you said, the bugginess doesn't help, as it was 50% premium to pay to get the early beta version...


got the reply from C74 - said that they wouldn't do the refund even though I bought a product I'm not able to use.... gobsmacked! if iTunes was plastered with MAC ONLY on day 1, fair enough, but it wasn't... not happy....

Did you pay with a credit card? Can't you just have it blocked there?

Yes this is pretty bad joke guys, 50 bucks for a prototype-quality software (UI, UX and features) that gets discounted in a couple weeks. Great way to repay your best costumers.

I AT LEAST expect short-spanned updates to solve current bugs and terminate (yes terminate, because now it's just UNFINISHED) implementation of the rest of UI objects.

http://www.labnol.org/software/itunes-app-store-refunds/13838/

Thumbs down for cycling's support as well so, as they should have told you...

You're breaking my heart guys, seriously...

Oh, this is how you get your refund:
http://www.labnol.org/software/itunes-app-store-refunds/13838/

Thumbs down for cycling's support as well so, as they should have told you...
You're breaking my heart guys, seriously...


I must say, I am really mesmerized by the fact that we didn't even get any comment or apology on this by cycling ... I mean it is possible to do a mistake and I am the last person not being able to forgive someone. In this case it is so obvious that this was really a rip off!

Recently, this has only been one of the situations where I am really disappointed by a software company I really loved. It may be just coincidence, but this year there were many occasions to be angry about marketing products and being the fool to buy the stuff from people you like early on! Most of them were sample developers, now cycling ... sad to see where the world is heading towards recently ...

I must say, I am really mesmerized by the fact that we didn't even get any comment or apology on this by cycling ... I mean it is possible to do a mistake and I am the last person not being able to forgive someone. In this case it is so obvious that this was really a rip off!
Recently, this has only been one of the situations where I am really disappointed by a software company I really loved. It may be just coincidence, but this year there were many occasions to be angry about marketing products and being the fool to buy the stuff from people you like early on! Most of them were sample developers, now cycling ... sad to see where the world is heading towards recently ...


will it be windows compatible, for shure, and when if so?

I waited for this sale but now when I know its not compatible with my pc how could I by it?

will it be windows compatible, for shure, and when if so?
otherwise its no meaning buying it?
I waited for this sale but now when I know its not compatible with my pc how could I by it?
You must tell us.


This is the last response.. I'm not normally of this nature, but I can't believe the lack of understanding here...

"The word from the top is that all refunds are between you and Apple as we do not accept the payments directly. Please contact Apple directly for a refund regarding your Mira purchase. My suggestion at this point is to get a full refund for your software if possible and purchase again in the future when we have something available for Windows. In the meantime I hope that you can enjoy working with Mira on any available iPod you may own."

a) so I can buy now as a potential Windows user and pay $35...

b) iTunes won't allow me to buy it now because I have already purchased it at $50, I have to get it refunded by Apple first - typically 7-10 days, at which point the 35% offer will have expired

c) what difference does it make whether I've got an iPod or an iPad or iAnything - I can't write software for it on my PC, therefore it's not fit for intended purpose (technically it is now, as iTunes says MacOS - but this wasn't the case on day 1 when I purchased)

d) yes, I can get a full refund, but it's not really what I want - I just want to pay the same price for a product that I can't use that someone buying the product now that can't use it either would have paid, and then we can all not use it together until we can use it....

Anyway, my last post on the matter... I've already consumed the $15 in beer this evening that I would have potentially saved... it's just more of an attitude thing really

This is the last response.. I'm not normally of this nature, but I can't believe the lack of understanding here... 

"The word from the top is that all refunds are between you and Apple as we do not accept the payments directly.  Please contact Apple directly for a refund regarding your Mira purchase.  My suggestion at this point is to get a full refund for your software if possible and purchase again in the future when we have something available for Windows.  In the meantime I hope that you can enjoy working with Mira on any available iPod you may own."

a) so I can buy now as a potential Windows user and pay $35...
b) iTunes won't allow me to buy it now because I have already purchased it at $50, I have to get it refunded by Apple first - typically 7-10 days, at which point the 35% offer will have expired
c) what difference does it make whether I've got an iPod or an iPad or iAnything - I can't write software for it on my PC, therefore it's not fit for intended purpose (technically it is now, as iTunes says MacOS - but this wasn't the case on day 1 when I purchased)
d) yes, I can get a full refund, but it's not really what I want - I just want to pay the same price for a product that I can't use that someone buying the product now that can't use it either would have paid, and then we can all not use it together until we can use it....

Anyway, my last post on the matter... I've already consumed the $15 in beer this evening that I would have potentially saved... it's just more of an attitude thing really


I think I am at a point where I will just take a refund, jailbreak my iPad and get a free copy of Mira somewhere from the internet. Huh! What do you say now, cycling people? :-) If you mess with people like that, I wouldn't be surprised, if honest people do stuff like that, which generally is against their principles.

First, if you were not aware of this already, you should understand that your app store transaction is between you and Apple. Apple does not reveal the identities of people who buy apps to developers. We don't have your name or your credit card information, and a merchant can only refund a transaction that he or she made in the first place. I don't set the rules. I wish I did. I understand it's a pain. I buy iPad apps too.

Second, I can confirm that we are working on a Windows version of the Mira objects for Max. I apologize to those of you who purchased Mira without realizing there wasn't a Windows version yet. We clarified the app store description after the first couple of days when we became aware that people were assuming there was Windows support. We will have a beta of our Windows objects for Mira soon and believe me, we all wish it were finished already! Now you might say, "why should I pay for beta software?" Well, you aren't. We will not advertise Windows support as a Mira feature until we are satisfied with the performance and stability. For those of you have already contacted us about Windows support, we will be in touch as soon as we have something, and the objects will be a public beta as well.

Finally, let's talk about pricing and money. I would rather talk about what all your friends at Cycling '74 wake up every day to do, which is create and support the best and most innovative software for our customers that we can, but I understand that when money is involved, sometimes we need to talk about it.

To date, we have invested close to a quarter of a million dollars in our mobile technology. I don't expect to make it back by selling apps for $50 apiece (or any other price), and moreover, we will continue to invest in this area, because we've only scratched the surface of what we want to do. I believe this money was a good investment because I believe Max + Mira is an incredibly cool thing, and no one else was going to make it. The economics of mobile software are frankly not very favorable right now, and since many of you are interested in software development, you're probably aware that only a tiny fraction of apps will ever make any money. But I don't want your sympathy! Let's be honest: at the moment, your purchase is being subsidized by sales of desktop software. So $50 is a deal, although maybe it doesn't seem that way in an era of Google financing software development by shoving ads in your face and everyone else selling your demographics. Software developers may also know that when you buy an app in the app store, Apple takes 30% of the sale, so we are making even less than it might appear. So that $18 you're concerned about, well, Apple already took $13 of it.

However, for those of you who are really bothered by the fact that your friends can buy Mira today for less than you paid for it, feel free to get a refund from iTunes. I promise we will reduce the price for one day sometime in the next couple of months. Then you can get the same deal. That's really all we can do, because, until we have a lot more sales information to change our opinion, the original $50 price will be the regular price, as of July 13. Just to be fair to prospective customers interested in Windows support, we'll have this one-day sale after you have a chance to hear from others how the Windows objects are working for them. We don't need dissatisfied customers.

I apologize if our lowering of the Mira price by $18 left you with a bad feeling. That was never our intention. We typically try one or two price promotions a year, and our inclusion of Mira in this year's sale was primarily driven by curiosity. What would happen if we lowered the price? We can't just ask people, we have to try it and see what happens. I would love it if we human beings were not price sensitive, but we are.

Mira is our first mobile app, and we are trying to learn about the possibilities. I hope you can understand that, and put up with a bit of experimentation. However, none of us at Cycling '74 believe price manipulation is the path to success. For us it's about adding features to Mira and improving its performance. These enhancements will be free of course, and we are monitoring your feedback carefully to determine how to prioritize future development. That is part of the deal with being an early adopter: when you take a risk, you get to influence the future direction of the product. We look at Max and Mira as a system. We want Mira to be a reasonably priced addition to the system and we want the system as a whole to inspire the imagination of our users. Our vision was an app for people who use Max, and only people who use Max.

To date, we have invested close to a quarter of a million dollars in our mobile technology. I don't expect to make it back by selling apps for $50 apiece (or any other price), and moreover, we will continue to invest in this area, because we've only scratched the surface of what we want to do. I believe this money was a good investment because I believe Max + Mira is an incredibly cool thing, and no one else was going to make it. The economics of mobile software are frankly not very favorable right now, and since many of you are interested in software development, you're probably aware that only a tiny fraction of apps will ever make any money. But I don't want your sympathy! Let's be honest: at the moment, your purchase is being subsidized by sales of desktop software. So $50 is a deal, although maybe it doesn't seem that way in an era of Google financing software development by shoving ads in your face and everyone else selling your demographics. Software developers may also know that when you buy an app in the app store, Apple takes 30% of the sale, so we are making even less than it might appear. So that $18 you're concerned about, well, Apple already took $13 of it. 

Mira is our first mobile app, and we are trying to learn about the possibilities. I hope you can understand that, and put up with a bit of experimentation. However, none of us at Cycling '74 believe price manipulation is the path to success. For us it's about adding features to Mira and improving its performance. These enhancements will be free of course, and we are monitoring your feedback carefully to determine how to prioritize future development. That is part of the deal with being an early adopter: when you take a risk, you get to influence the future direction of the product. We look at Max and Mira as a system. We want Mira to be a reasonably priced addition to the system and we want the system as a whole to inspire the imagination of our users. Our vision was an app for people who use Max, and only people who use Max.


I wonder if there will be some kind of sale like this after the android/windows version gets released? From reading all the bug reports on the initial Mira thread I have no confidence about buying it now just because it's cheaper, without knowing anything about how functional it'll be.

Edit: Ok I just read the above post, we get a day..

This 35% experiment is likely to just make people (including myself) not buy the next paid update, and wait until the inevitable sale comes AND beta/bugs get worked out.

I wouldn't have previously equated paying a company for software I like right when it comes out to being a risk. But from what you're saying, that is the case, financially, and feature/implementation wise.

(almost unrelatedly, wasn't there a paid c74 iPhone app a couple years ago? Or was that made by someone else?)

This 35% experiment is likely to just make people (including myself) not buy the next paid update, and wait until the inevitable sale comes AND beta/bugs get worked out. 

I wouldn't have previously equated paying a company for software I like right when it comes out to being a risk. But from what you're saying, that is the case, financially, and feature/implementation wise. 

(almost unrelatedly, wasn't there a paid c74 iPhone app a couple years ago? Or was that made by someone else?)


Edit: and nice to hear something from Cycling on the matter, especially Mr. Zicarelli. It's kind of the response I expected regarding the initial price, and I think the lack information regarding Windows compatibility has been acknowledged as a blunder.

The 'early adopters vs. the price drop' looks set to continue though. I don't think people would have spoken up so much about the price and value for money if it had remained the same for at least 6 months or something. I'll admit I was holding out for this sale, but I didn't expect to come so soon. I'm not that business-minded but my first reaction was: "ouch, people are going to pissed off", I'm just that wasn't their first thought.

@Rodrigo: that was someone else: http://www.nr74.org/

Edit: and nice to hear something from Cycling on the matter, especially Mr. Zicarelli. It's kind of the response I expected regarding the initial price, and I think the lack information regarding Windows compatibility has been acknowledged as a blunder. 

The 'early adopters vs. the price drop' looks set to continue though. I don't think people would have spoken up so much about the price and value for money if it had remained the same for at least 6 months or something. I'll admit I was holding out for this sale, but I didn't expect to come so soon. I'm not that business-minded but my first reaction was: "ouch, people are going to pissed off", I'm just that wasn't their first thought.


@David, thanks for taking the time out to clarify and point a few things out :) It's great to see that level of investment and am very excited about where all this will lead. I understand how sales work and everyone does them - it's a bit of a shame when you buy something one day and it's cheaper the next but hey, there you go... Equally as much, I'll have been thinking about buying something and not doing it and then the next day it's cheaper, bonus!

Regarding the assumption of Windows support though, C74 is a company that produces software for Mac and Windows - with no mention on your website, on iTunes, or in any promotional posts that this was Mac only when released, I think in all fairness, that assuming a Windows version was available was quite reasonable in the absence of any mention anywhere that it was Mac only...

I've also no problem with being an early adopter and working to iron out the problems in software - I'm more than happy to do this to work to a more stable product, but when you mention "That is part of the deal with being an early adopter: when you take a risk, you get to influence the future direction of the product", I think the risk portion here is stretched to it's limit when you can't even use the software... :)

After buying and asking about the Windows version, I was told it would be forthcoming and decided I'd be happy to wait otherwise I'd have refunded there and then..., so you still have my support.

For me, waiting for Windows or having a sale is a meh... both in quick succession is somewhat frustrating...

Anyway, back to the important thing of actually doing stuff...

@David, thanks for taking the time out to clarify and point a few things out :) It's great to see that level of investment and am very excited about where all this will lead. I understand how sales work and everyone does them - it's a bit of a shame when you buy something one day and it's cheaper the next but hey, there you go... Equally as much, I'll have been thinking about buying something and not doing it and then the next day it's cheaper, bonus!
Regarding the assumption of Windows support though, C74 is a company that produces software for Mac and Windows - with no mention on your website, on iTunes, or in any promotional posts that this was Mac only when released, I think in all fairness, that assuming a Windows version was available was quite reasonable in the absence of any mention anywhere that it was Mac only...
I've also no problem with being an early adopter and working to iron out the problems in software - I'm more than happy to do this to work to a more stable product, but when you mention "That is part of the deal with being an early adopter: when you take a risk, you get to influence the future direction of the product", I think the risk portion here is stretched to it's limit when you can't even use the software... :)
After buying and asking about the Windows version, I was told it would be forthcoming and decided I'd be happy to wait otherwise I'd have refunded there and then..., so you still have my support.
For me, waiting for Windows or having a sale is a meh... both in quick succession is somewhat frustrating...
Anyway, back to the important thing of actually doing stuff...


https://cycling74.com/forums/users/david/

i will wait patiently for win version of Mira object and i'll be happy to test it if requested.

i don't regret my investment on Mira having payed it the full price.

I only suggest to be more clear the next time. something in the line " beware windows users that mira is now osx only. we 're working on a win version that you can purchase in advance at the reduced price of 35$ wich will be launched in a few day for all Max 6 users".

i respect and love Cycling74 work and effort. would be nice to be a little more careful of the user base on your side.

https://cycling74.com/forums/users/david/
thanks david for your kind explanation.
i will wait patiently for win version of Mira object and i'll be happy to test it if requested.
i don't regret my investment on Mira having payed it the full price.
I only suggest to be more clear the next time. something in the line " beware windows users that mira is now osx only. we 're working on a win version that you can purchase in advance at the reduced price of 35$ wich will be launched in a few day for all Max 6 users".
i respect and love Cycling74 work and effort. would be nice to be a little more careful of the user base on your side.
all the best and thanks again
a.


seems it will take a while for the windows version

ok
seems it will take a while for the windows version
I probably wait then


2 - I am max user from the black archive and photocopy era. Later come the opcode, and run until today, from 80, when I was a "pipiolo" as tell in spanish :)

3 - I had buyed very upgrades, and developers (cros compile plataform) to run.

4 - I am very comfortable in this new version, 6.1 of course, and all before in to many years.

Now, later MSP, cyclops, Jitter, Gen, an now Mira are a very useful extension, of course.

5 - I am not confortable whith had buyed MIRA for 50$ and see it shell a lot less.

6 - I am not confortable seen that the upgrade to 6 is a lot less. I understand it happen, this happen in the live in the company's "happenings". Happen in the commercial company.

7 - In a similar happenings, I work with a principal machine and a portable: both mac. I had only one licence.

My old mac is old now. I cannot upgrade. I run with the big monitor in front of me. My great friend :)

8 - I had buyed a mac mini, Ok. And need get my bicycle to go to beach to follow max(ing) there. I cannot because the licence is for the old mac, and I cannot use in the portatil, none for mac mini.

I think that Cycling as company, can understand that the licence must happend in this way for many of users. And I think that this is a good moment to understand in Cycling (the comercial model) the need of multiple licences personal without buy more. This resolve the big problem for some users, this is a way that can be resolv my problem. Tree month ago in hospital, I install the max 6 but some problem because the licence... just tryed some month before and cannot do nothing...

Best regards with sorry for my bad languaje.

5 - I am not confortable whith had buyed MIRA for 50$ and see it shell a lot less. 

7 - In a similar happenings, I work with a principal machine and a portable: both mac. I had only one licence.
My old mac is old now. I cannot upgrade. I run with the big monitor in front of me. My great friend :)

Best regards with sorry for my bad languaje.
:)


(@maxdroid : i've been able to re authorize Max thanks to Cycling support when i upgraded my computer ; on my new computer. I just sent them an e mail, they gave me a code to reauthorize. Also i have a dual boot on my current macbook, and similarly i had no trouble reauthorizing Max on my Windows partition.)

@VICHUG : Thanks for the info. I go to try this way. :)

@VICHUG : Thanks for the info. I go to try this way. :)
Best regards.


If you are experimenting with your sales techniques then I recommend an introductory sale. Everybody loves those. I got Nave for 10e - bargain :)

What a pity I was too quick for the discount of 35 %, the Monday at 16 h in France prices from Apple was not changed in euro! therefore I paid Candles full prize (45 Euros)! What a pity for time I had too quickly, usual I been am rather turtle.

I hasten to buy GEN. Am I going to arrive there?

What a pity I was too quick for the discount of 35 %, the Monday at 16 h in France prices from Apple was not changed in euro! therefore I paid Candles full prize (45 Euros)! What a pity for time I had too quickly, usual I been am rather turtle.
I hasten to buy GEN. Am I going to arrive there?

PS Cycling 74 i really love you
Sorry for my english


The whole sale kerfuffle is worth it for this:

"I had buyed a mac mini, Ok. And need get my bicycle to go to beach to follow max(ing) there."

I can only hope to provide as much enjoyment to people when I'm learning Hindi.

Just before I hit 'sent' on my email to sales@cycling74.com I thought I'd better check the forum.

And sure enough I'm not the only one who is a bit miffed at being over-enthusiastic about cycling '74 (if that is possible!) and just blindly buying Mira as soon as it came out, only to find the discount now. Poor timing. I've seen many software products allow a discount or free upgrade if the new version came out within x months of you buying the old: I see no reason why some similar retrospective discount or refund wouldn't go for Mira.

It's not so much the money - it's more the idea that you love Cycling '74 so you just buy the next great thing they come up with without thinking, so it feels a little weird that you would have been better off not jumping on it straight away. I get that you can't refund / discount because you don't have data on who purchased Mira (though we could send you our invoice)

@David: Having worked in big companies for a long time and heard and seen a lot of poor responses to all kinds of complaints I have to say kudos to you for a very well put together response, it makes sense, sounds genuine and is without bs

And thanks again for the tools that allow me to do things I never dreamed I would be able to do.

Just before I hit 'sent' on my email to sales@cycling74.com I thought I'd better check the forum. 

Rant over -
And thanks again for the tools that allow me to do things I never dreamed I would be able to do.


Thanks to all, and special to sales from cycling. Problem resolved.

Couldn't wait either, though I don't have an iPad yet...;-)

I wanted to buy one just for Mira when I was in New York, but didn't got payed in cash for my workshop, the bank took more than 10% for the wire (I could have bought 2 * Mira for just that...) and then I realized, that only the cellular version of the iPad has GPS on board, then saw that Acer Aconia A1 8" pad which is a third of the price of a decent iPad mini and, and, and...

Prices of iPads raised on ebay because of Mira, the Android version of TouchOSC works flawless now...

But I found some herbs in Nature and they didn't ask for any money and taste so much better than anything you get in the supermarket...

Buying gear should work like a free improvisation, don't look back...

In the end If I pay a price I think its worth it, I simply exclude any thought on how I could have gotten it cheaper if I would have known. Gone is gone and thats fine for me...

I can't wait to get an iPad mini now...;-)

Couldn't wait either, though I don't have an iPad yet...;-)
I wanted to buy one just for Mira when I was in New York, but didn't got payed in cash for my workshop, the bank took more than 10% for the wire (I could have bought 2 * Mira  for just that...) and then I realized, that only the cellular version of the iPad has GPS on board, then saw that Acer Aconia A1 8" pad which is a third of the price of a decent iPad mini and, and, and...
Prices of iPads raised on ebay because of Mira, the Android version of TouchOSC works flawless now...
But I found some herbs in Nature and they didn't ask for any money and taste so much better than anything you get in the supermarket...

In the end If I pay a price I think its worth it, I simply exclude any thought on how I could have gotten it cheaper if I would have known. Gone is gone and thats fine for me...
I can't wait to get an iPad mini now...;-)


MAX 6 DAY SALE: 35% off Max products (even Mira and Gen) until July 12