estevancarlos

Right now I would describe Max more as "The Blank of Things" where it's still broad and versatile (although clearly focused on MIDI and audio).

I've come to really find the language fascinating despite my C++ peers criticizing it. The fact that you can quickly create UIs and instantly create interactions is pretty significant. I basically want to argue that Cycling74 should consider the current industry direction and see what angle they should approach it. The internet aspect probably should be beefed up within the language. It could be promoted as "The Everything of Things". More attention should be put into UI for UI designers. I'm very fascinated by the potential in all these areas.

Right now I would describe Max more as "The Blank of Things" where it's still broad and versatile (although clearly focused on MIDI and audio).  

I've come to really find the language fascinating despite my C++ peers criticizing it.  The fact that you can quickly create UIs and instantly create interactions is pretty significant.  I basically want to argue that Cycling74 should consider the current industry direction and see what angle they should approach it.  The internet aspect probably should be beefed up within the language.  It could be promoted as "The Everything of Things".  More attention should be put into UI for UI designers. I'm very fascinated by the potential in all these areas.


max-has-the-potential-to-become-a-major-tool-for-the-internet-of-things

tell them to experiment with gen~ and how it generates c++ code(otherwise, if they're just criticizing max over semantics of language or styles of programming, they're probably thinking too myopically about what max can be used for in the first place: max is more like a network of languages rather than a specific programming style itself and this is one of the ways it derives its main and most important strength of all and forever: its open-endedness).

"although clearly focused on MIDI and audio"

this is not the clarity of focus i detect AT ALL! (look at supercollider for professional level audio/midi focus).

and everyone is likely to see it differently.

but i think video and UI are other huge and clear focuses.

"More attention should be put into UI for UI designers"

I think less attention should be put into this.

We are definitely in a time, during history, when designers and programmers are easily amused with themselves and easily convince themselves that the conformity of their skills to a legacy of technical evolution is good enough to be called 'artistry'.

But even if you disagree with the above views of mine(and if you're sane, you probably do >:D), or just don't understand it(if you're sane, you also probably don't >;D), Max has already proven itself as having great strength in UI above and beyond most other similar environs(reaktor might look slightly better out of the box, but UI-wise, they both can do pretty much the same and max even more), anyways. As long as there's more to do in other realms(and there is) UI need never be a priority ever again.

That's just my opinion (hopefully it will be disregarded as quickly as i wrote it :D)

BUT! All this is just to say, there is no dominant right or wrong view on this matter.

All i'd really care about is that Cycling74 leave Max as 'broad and versatile' as possible.

It was open-ended when it came out as one of the few environs that could decouple its event-scheduling from the audio thread according to user preference of priorities. It became even more open-ended when jitter afforded options to parse certain calculations(even audio) to the GPU, leaving more CPU resources for other things while integrating many different programming languages within the same environment to allow people from all different programming backgrounds to maximize their use of a computer.

"the current industry direction" is not a good source for long-term planning and direction.

The open-endedness of max is ultimately the best source for long-term planning and direction(it's the main reason max has gotten this far, too).

Having said that, (and although i totally disagree with this: "More attention should be put into UI for UI designers."... i think too much attention has been put there already)..... i wouldn't mind a little beefing up of the 'internet aspect' as estevan mentioned.

this is not the clarity of focus i detect AT ALL! (look at supercollider for professional level audio/midi focus).
and everyone is likely to see it differently.
but i think video and UI are other huge and clear focuses.

I think less attention should be put into this.
We are definitely in a time, during history, when designers and programmers are easily amused with themselves and easily convince themselves that the conformity of their skills to a legacy of technical evolution is good enough to be called 'artistry'.
But even if you disagree with the above views of mine(and if you're sane, you probably do >:D), or just don't understand it(if you're sane, you also probably don't >;D), Max has already proven itself as having great strength in UI above and beyond most other similar environs(reaktor might look slightly better out of the box, but UI-wise, they both can do pretty much the same and max even more), anyways. As long as there's more to do in other realms(and there is) UI need never be a priority ever again.

BUT! All this is just to say, there is no dominant right or wrong view on this matter.
All i'd really care about is that Cycling74 leave Max as 'broad and versatile' as possible.
It was open-ended when it came out as one of the few environs that could decouple its event-scheduling from the audio thread according to user preference of priorities. It became even more open-ended when jitter afforded options to parse certain calculations(even audio) to the GPU, leaving more CPU resources for other things while integrating many different programming languages within the same environment to allow people from all different programming backgrounds to maximize their use of a computer.

"the current industry direction" is not a good source for long-term planning and direction.
The open-endedness of max is ultimately the best source for long-term planning and direction(it's the main reason max has gotten this far, too).

Having said that, (and although i totally disagree with this: "More attention should be put into UI for UI designers."... i think too much attention has been put there already)..... i wouldn't mind a little beefing up of the 'internet aspect' as estevan mentioned.
Because after all, hey, everything in the world could use some kind of improvement :)


he means that maxm/msp should work with kitchen aid and miele to make your next fridge automatically order pizza based on pizza.maxhelp.

i believe after max4live this is the next logial step anyway.

"i believe after max4live this is the next logial step anyway"

HA! +110 (this put a big smile on my face. thank you, roman)

Does it mean Max will be available to Fridge OS then ? great !

"Does it mean Max will be available to Fridge OS then ?"

FridgeOS will likely be built from linux(y'know... because linux is so 'cool' :), and therefore, cycling74 will likely promise, in an eternally forestalled way, that it might be available for FridgeOS in the unforeseeable future ;D

(then again, FridgeOS is already here, but they call it.... 'Android':

http://gadgets.ndtv.com/others/news/samsungs-t9000-smart-refrigerator-runs-on-android-includes-apps-like-evernote-and-epicurious-320610

sidenote: HEHEHEHEHEEEE! that article and the fridge it's talking about seems to cater to Americans:

"The fridge, because it's the hub of the family..."

what kind of 'family' is centered around a fridge?!

okokok... i've had enough fun.... apologies to the OP for rambling away in his thread... i'll stop. .....for now.... >:D)

(then again, FridgeOS is already here, but they call it.... 'Android':
http://gadgets.ndtv.com/others/news/samsungs-t9000-smart-refrigerator-runs-on-android-includes-apps-like-evernote-and-epicurious-320610
sidenote: HEHEHEHEHEEEE! that article and the fridge it's talking about seems to cater to Americans:
"The fridge, because it's the hub of the family..."
what kind of 'family' is centered around a fridge?!
okokok... i've had enough fun.... apologies to the OP for rambling away in his thread... i'll stop. .....for now.... >:D)


For some reason my comment did not post.


"Internet of Things" is basically the business, buzz term, used to described broader technologies -- wearable, immersive, interactive -- that are connected to the internet or rather: non-tablet, non-desktop, computing devices that are interconnected.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/528126/digital-summit-internet-of-things-think-of-it-as-the-internet-of-stuff/

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/527386/the-internet-of-you/

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/528111/digital-summit-being-human-in-the-future/

"he means that maxm/msp should work with kitchen aid and miele to make your next fridge automatically order pizza based on pizza.maxhelp."

That's a pretty narrow description of the idea.

"The open-endedness of max is ultimately the best source for long-term planning and direction(it’s the main reason max has gotten this far, too)."

Which is exactly my point since I mention Max is, "'The Blank of Things' where it’s still broad and versatile". Due to this I think it should be marketed as such and more people should be brought into the fold. It's versatility connects very well with contemporary needs and Cycling74 should consider capitalizing on that fact. It's an open ended language that can really serve many people who may not yet be aware.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/528126/digital-summit-internet-of-things-think-of-it-as-the-internet-of-stuff/
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/527386/the-internet-of-you/
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/528111/digital-summit-being-human-in-the-future/

@RAJA_THE_RESIDENT_ASSWIPE
"The open-endedness of max is ultimately the best source for long-term planning and direction(it’s the main reason max has gotten this far, too)."

Which is exactly my point since I mention Max is, "'The Blank of Things' where it’s still broad and versatile".  Due to this I think it should be marketed as such and more people should be brought into the fold.  It's versatility connects very well with contemporary needs and Cycling74 should consider capitalizing on that fact.  It's an open ended language that can really serve many people who may not yet be aware.


"Which is exactly my point since I mention Max is, "‘The Blank of Things’ where it’s still broad and versatile"."

i'm sure it could be that i didn't understand your point.

but as i look very carefully through this thread and your titling of it, the inflection and implication to your wording seems to me to be that:

right now, although you consider max to be the 'blank of things', you'd prefer that it to move into the direction of becoming the 'internet of things'...

...but if you're saying you'd like it, instead, to 

 as the 'blank of things' then i totally agree! :D

because nothing is more closed-ended and short-term in thinking, than attempting to capitalize on mere internet business trends.

Have you considered that maybe 'the internet of things' is just another branding term for corporations to trick you into buying those exact 'things' and making them seem more hip and important than they actually are? this could be just a form of 'lifestyle-branding', to help companies increase the perceived importance of their products. i know you read it on the MITTechnologyReview site, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is from some authority to be trusted in a way that is completely unbiased and separate from corporate influence(the first article quotes 'internet of stuff' from someone who works directly for Intel). Just some things to consider, maybe thinking twice, next time you feel like getting excited about 'the internet of things':

1) To me, the 'internet of things' is actually just a louder form of 'corporate noise' because the world keeps growing more deaf to corporate influence, and getting smarter about not spending its money so frivolously.

2) It all sounds exciting when you think about the fact that 'sewer and fire-warning systems can be hooked up to a centralized monitoring system' etc.... but then consider the conflict of 'NET NEUTRALITY' going on these days. If net neutrality is not protected, then the 'internet of things' becomes just another virtual form of 'class-stratification'.... wealthier cities might have sewer and fire-warning systems hooked up to a faster, more responsive internet. Or think of the implications on just the global stock exchange, most of which is handled by stock-brokers and investors, through the internet these days.

Because all of these issues are intertwined, it's hard to say that the trends of the internet are actually moving in a positive direction, or just towards more materialistic delusion and 1st-world stratification of global class-structure.

(all in all, i don't think cycling74 should make this a huge priority, but i wouldn't mind seeing improvements on any end of the max/msp/jitter spectrum... including internet/UI/whatever... so my comments are more intended to look at the dualities involved in this issue.

(for example, while my comment about the Intel person may seem to expose a conflict of interest... it also gets you to look at the fact that Intel supports net-neutrality... so maybe the right people who respect 'the internet of things' as something positively constructive beyond just capitalism, will also do enough to protect net-neutrality and we won't have a problem with internet-service-provider-imposed hierarchies of service....)

there are interesting complexities involved here.

it's a thought provoking thread, either way! :D

oh apologies, then...
i'm sure it could be that i didn't understand your point.
but as i look very carefully through this thread and your titling of it, the inflection and implication to your wording seems to me to be that:
right now, although you consider max to be the 'blank of things', you'd prefer that it to move into the direction of becoming the 'internet of things'...
...but if you're saying you'd like it, instead, to remain as the 'blank of things' then i totally agree! :D
because nothing is more closed-ended and short-term in thinking, than attempting to capitalize on mere internet business trends.

Have you considered that maybe 'the internet of things' is just another branding term for corporations to trick you into buying those exact 'things' and making them seem more hip and important than they actually are? this could be just a form of 'lifestyle-branding', to help companies increase the perceived importance of their products. i know you read it on the MITTechnologyReview site, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is from some authority to be trusted in a way that is completely unbiased and separate from corporate influence(the first article quotes 'internet of stuff' from someone who works directly for Intel). Just some things to consider, maybe thinking twice, next time you feel like getting excited about 'the internet of things':
1) To me, the 'internet of things' is actually just a louder form of 'corporate noise' because the world keeps growing more deaf to corporate influence, and getting smarter about not spending its money so frivolously.
2) It all sounds exciting when you think about the fact that 'sewer and fire-warning systems can be hooked up to a centralized monitoring system' etc.... but then consider the conflict of 'NET NEUTRALITY' going on these days. If net neutrality is not protected, then the 'internet of things' becomes just another virtual form of 'class-stratification'.... wealthier cities might have sewer and fire-warning systems hooked up to a faster, more responsive internet. Or think of the implications on just the global stock exchange, most of which is handled by stock-brokers and investors, through the internet these days.
Because all of these issues are intertwined, it's hard to say that the trends of the internet are actually moving in a positive direction, or just towards more materialistic delusion and 1st-world stratification of global class-structure.

(all in all, i don't think cycling74 should make this a huge priority, but i wouldn't mind seeing improvements on any end of the max/msp/jitter spectrum... including internet/UI/whatever... so my comments are more intended to look at the dualities involved in this issue.
(for example, while my comment about the Intel person may seem to expose a conflict of interest... it also gets you to look at the fact that Intel supports net-neutrality... so maybe the right people who respect 'the internet of things' as something positively constructive beyond just capitalism, will also do enough to protect net-neutrality and we won't have a problem with internet-service-provider-imposed hierarchies of service....)
there are interesting complexities involved here.
it's a thought provoking thread, either way! :D
okokok… i'll stop again....
for now...
>;D
>8D )


fridge OS currently does not have rounded corners for its objects (because fridge OS was built for creativity back in the days), but that is easy to change. mind you, in most fridges, juice is already contained, some even already have spaghetti.

*** 110 announces frigde.modular, german version*** 110 has left the chat

I hate to say it, but in my experience pd has already made much bigger inroads in this area, because it's free and open, allowing initiatives such as libpd. I'm involved in an internet of things project, and we're using libpd running on an odroid. Painful as it's been for me to work with (vanilla) pd after being used to the luxury of Max, I have to say it's pretty amazing what can run on a $50 computer running $0 software.

Not a rant against C74 or Max (I'll still use Max when I can - you gets what you pays for). Just sayin..

I hate to say it, but in my experience pd has already made much bigger inroads in this area, because it's free and open, allowing initiatives such as libpd. I'm involved in an internet of things project, and we're using libpd running on an odroid.  Painful as it's been for me to work with (vanilla) pd after being used to the luxury of Max, I have to say it's pretty amazing what can run on a $50 computer running $0 software.

Not a rant against C74 or Max (I'll still use Max when I can - you gets what you pays for).  Just sayin..


I'm not interested in controlling my fridge, BUT....

I _would like to be able to use max on a Pi computer, so as to be able to make a really portable (and cheap) version of my sensor system for care homes & SEN schools. I'm not looking forward to having to figure out how to do it in pd, especially as I've already got it working (mostly) ok in Max.

So a version of max that runs in Linux is, I guess, what I'd love to see............

I'm not interested in controlling my fridge, BUT....
I _would like to be able to use max on a Pi computer, so as to be able to make a really portable (and cheap) version of my sensor system for care homes & SEN schools. I'm not looking forward to having to figure out how to do it in pd, especially as I've already got it working (mostly) ok in Max.
So a version of max that runs in Linux is, I guess, what I'd love to see............


I want to be able to continue to work in a "language" that I'm familiar with and have already put many years into learning and creating with. Ie max. I've looked at pd, and as far as I can tell, in effect I'd have to rebuild the software I've been developing and improving over the last five years or so from the ground up. And I do mean the nuts and bolts level. Maybe if I was 20 years younger, and had a source of funding.....

well, of course (mostly) everyone would be happy if Max did run on Linux, wouldn't we ?

@DavideStevens - I hear ya. It was painful for me, but not quite as painful as I feared. The two are not so different under the hood, though it does depend what you're doing of course. A lot of the stuff that's different (UI elements in particular) tends not to be relevant in embedded systems anyway. But still, I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have to - it's currently the only option unless you want to start coding (which I would argue is a much bigger leap).

Maybe Max running on Linux isn't such a crazy dream (please, C74!), but I can't see a Max equivalent of libpd (which I think is what's really needed for Internet of Things devices) happening anytime soon, as it really needs an open source base. Please someone tell me I'm wrong!

As I say, I'm not enough of a pd convert that I'm not still using Max when I can.

@DavideStevens - I hear ya. It was painful for me, but not quite as painful as I feared.  The two are not so different under the hood, though it does depend what you're doing of course. A lot of the stuff that's different (UI elements in particular) tends not to be relevant in embedded systems anyway.  But still, I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have to - it's currently the only option unless you want to start coding (which I would argue is a much bigger leap).  

As I say, I'm not enough of a pd convert that I'm not still using Max when I can.


"right now, although you consider max to be the ‘blank of things’, you’d prefer that it to move into the direction of becoming the ‘internet of things’…"

They aren't antithetical. Max can be a general purpose tool that can serve the needs of current trends. "The Blank of Things" is a big umbrella that can include better tools like maxURL and thus fit into a shifting marketplace. It has nothing to do with throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think you're being very cynical and anti-corporate. Cycling74 is clearly a _very_ for-profit company. This isn't PD. I think it would benefit them to clarify to a wider audience that their tools can serve contemporary needs that are currently marketed as "The Internet of Things".

"this could be just a form of ‘lifestyle-branding’, to help companies increase the perceived importance of their products."

I work within marketing departments often and yes. This is true but you say it as though it's some dark secret. "The Internet of Things" is really intended as a descriptor for non-technicals (no one around here). It is intended to brand it and organize ideas. We are seeing a sensible gradual shift away from desktop computing, and even away from tablets so I would argue that it's fine to put a name to it. No need to be so cynical or suspicious about that.

"but then consider the conflict of ‘NET NEUTRALITY’"

Why don't you consider the MeshNet then (Google the term). Obviously Net Neutrality is dead but that's a completely different subject.

They aren't antithetical.  Max can be a general purpose tool that can serve the needs of current trends.  "The Blank of Things" is a big umbrella that can include better tools like maxURL and thus fit into a shifting marketplace.  It has nothing to do with throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  I think you're being very cynical and anti-corporate.  Cycling74 is clearly a _very_ for-profit company.  This isn't PD.  I think it would benefit them to clarify to a wider audience that their tools can serve contemporary needs that are currently marketed as "The Internet of Things".

I work within marketing departments often and yes. This is true but you say it as though it's some dark secret.  "The Internet of Things" is really intended as a descriptor for non-technicals (no one around here).  It is intended to brand it and organize ideas.  We are seeing a sensible gradual shift away from desktop computing, and even away from tablets so I would argue that it's fine to put a name to it.  No need to be so cynical or suspicious about that.

Why don't you consider the MeshNet then (Google the term).  Obviously Net Neutrality is dead but that's a completely different subject.


"Cycling74 is clearly a _very_ for-profit company"

i'm not sure what you are implying here, but i'd argue they're more of a small team of passionate and devoted people than cold-blooded capitalists

"Cycling74 is clearly a _very_ for-profit company"
i'm not sure what you are implying here, but i'd argue they're more of a small team of passionate and devoted people than cold-blooded capitalists


"i’m not sure what you are implying here, but i’d argue they’re more of a small team of passionate and devoted people than cold-blooded capitalists"

Geez guys, I'm an artist too but I'm surprised by the overly suspicious, anti-capitalist tone. Max isn't an open source project. They could give some of their stuff away or lower the price dramatically if they wanted to but they don't. These guys want to get paid for their work. They want to make decent livings. Thus it is for-profit and I imagine they wouldn't mind making more money. That doesn't need to translate into "cold-blooded capitalists". Chill.

Geez guys, I'm an artist too but I'm surprised by the overly suspicious, anti-capitalist tone.  Max isn't an open source project.  They could give some of their stuff away or lower the price dramatically if they wanted to but they don't.  These guys want to get paid for their work.  They want to make decent livings.  Thus it is for-profit and I imagine they wouldn't mind making more money.  That doesn't need to translate into "cold-blooded capitalists". Chill.


"overly suspicious, anti-capitalist tone"

that's just you jumping to your own extremes of conclusion.

we aren't overly suspicious of capitalism at all. we're rightly moderately suspicious.

(i've lived in the bay area making a living off of companies like EA, Cycling74, Google, YouTube, Ubisoft, and many many more for 15 years now. i'm calmly but wisely suspicious by experience, NOT because i'm an anti-capitalist....)

there is no concrete logic involved in simply assuming that the people who work for a 'for-profit' company, wouldn't ALL mind making more money simply off of yet another trend in industry.

sure, anyone would love to make more money, but give them a choice of making more money creating something they don't care that much about(like UI design or catering to the 'internet of things' rather than 'the world of multimedia art'), or making money off of being artists in their own right(which many of the employees of cycling74 seem to have trouble doing from time to time, because they're so busy catering to a very diverse and extremely demanding clientele in the first place), i'm sure most people would actually prefer making that bit of 'more' money off of something that actually means something to them.

now i'm not arguing that it shouldn't mean something to you.... but many of us don't see it from your perspective, and we assume you started this thread to discover what perspectives in this community actually exist.

that's just you jumping to your own extremes of conclusion.
we aren't overly suspicious of capitalism at all. we're rightly moderately suspicious.
(i've lived in the bay area making a living off of companies like EA, Cycling74, Google, YouTube, Ubisoft, and many many more for 15 years now. i'm calmly but wisely suspicious by experience, NOT because i'm an anti-capitalist....)
there is no concrete logic involved in simply assuming that the people who work for a 'for-profit' company, wouldn't ALL mind making more money simply off of yet another trend in industry.
sure, anyone would love to make more money, but give them a choice of making more money creating something they don't care that much about(like UI design or catering to the 'internet of things' rather than 'the world of multimedia art'), or making money off of being artists in their own right(which many of the employees of cycling74 seem to have trouble doing from time to time, because they're so busy catering to a very diverse and extremely demanding clientele in the first place), i'm sure most people would actually prefer making that bit of 'more' money off of something that actually means something to them.

"that’s just you jumping to your own extremes of conclusion."

Everything you've said has been pretty cynical, suspicious, and snarky regarding marketing and business and what not. So I don't think I'm jumping to conclusions here.

"‘internet of things’ rather than ‘the world of multimedia art’"

Those two aren't antithetical. I think my point has been expressed well enough and so has yours.

Everything you've said has been pretty cynical, suspicious, and snarky regarding marketing and business and what not.  So I don't think I'm jumping to conclusions here.

Those two aren't antithetical.  I think my point has been expressed well enough and so has yours.


"Everything you’ve said has been pretty cynical, suspicious, and snarky"

This time no one will paint me in a corner because it is still written in my very words up above that my words are merely meant to look at the dualities involved. You have definitely made a very false statement here(i'm actually the one taking you more seriously than most...).

"So I don’t think I’m jumping to conclusions here."

you are quickly labelling, that which is simply 'experienced caution', as 'anti-capitalism'.

one can certainly cause an imbalance in the other.

"has been expressed well enough and so has yours."

"... when the moon is in the sevenths house / and jupiter aligns with mars / then peace will guide the planet / and love will steer the stars "

"... when the moon is in the sevenths house / and jupiter aligns with mars / then peace will guide the planet / and love will steer the stars "
entry big choir! :)))))))


i think we all agree guys, deep in our hearts ;)

Max has the potential to become a major tool for "The Internet of Things"