Funkapillar

Is there any way to get midi information out from ableton live (slave) when maxmsp is beign used as a rewire host.

I'm using max to vary the tempo of live at very short intervals thus creating off beat timings, I have to use live as a slave as when I use the hostcontrol object to control the tempo (live as a master, max as a slave) both programs crash and do not seem to like changing the tempo via rewire at such short intervals.

The only way I can think of doing this is by creating a vst/plugin/audiounit that be used as an instrument in live (similar to a synth) where the midi notes sequenced in live are received by the vst/etc... but instead of being used to opperate a synth are somehow sent out of live.

To clarify all I want to do is trigger an external drum machine by using sequences programmed into live's sequencer.

If anybody knows a way of doing this, can tell me why my suggestion will not work or that this is impossible, I'd be very thankfull.

midi-out-from-ableton-live-as-a-rewire-slave

You can easily change Live's tempo via the MIDI map.

You can get info about Live's tempo, by sending a click track of MIDI events to Max/MSP 1. Then just analyse the difference in time, using timer and you have the current tempo.

You can easily change Live's tempo via the MIDI map.
You can get info about Live's tempo, by sending a click track of MIDI events to Max/MSP 1. Then just analyse the difference in time, using timer and you have the current tempo.

Unfortunatly Live doesn't react quick enough via midi clock messages to get the right ratio of timing between notes. These though are extremely fast as Live may be running at 400+ bpm and tempo is changing every or every other 16th note. It does this accuratley (and reliably) enough using ReWire with max as host, it's just a same it crashes when Max is a slave using hostcontrol~.

Anyway I've managed to do what I wanted by sending the tempo change bangs as midinotes to Live where they are recorded into a sequence and I can then just line up any notes I wish to sequence to the notes recorded from Max (by hand with no quantise), thus giving a simlar/same effect to using a "groove template".

This is accurate enough for the moment but I can always use these (custom timed) bangs to release data stored in multisliders thus creating a midi trigger/sequencer which will be as accurate as max's event schedular allows.

Unfortunatly Live doesn't react quick enough via midi clock messages to get the right ratio of timing between notes. These though are extremely fast as Live may be running at 400+ bpm and tempo is changing every or every other 16th note. It does this accuratley (and reliably) enough using ReWire with max as host, it's just a same it crashes when Max is a slave using hostcontrol~.
Anyway I've managed to do what I wanted by sending the tempo change bangs as midinotes to Live where they are recorded into a sequence and I can then just line up any notes I wish to sequence to the notes recorded from Max (by hand with no quantise), thus giving a simlar/same effect to using a "groove template".
This is accurate enough for the moment but I can always use these (custom timed) bangs to release data stored in multisliders thus creating a midi trigger/sequencer which will be as accurate as max's event schedular allows.


Hi - do you have any tips (or a patch to send MTC / MMC / Midi Control so as to change Live's tempo directly?

I think you would be able to change it and have it sync up okay. If you send a pitch-bend message Midi mapped to the tempo in live then you can resend your click back to Max and change tempo say every 4th beat. 

I've done this for a real-time drum tracker - see youtube - search 'b-keeper'

I can send you some more info if you're interested - maybe put a patch up here or something?

I think you would be able to change it and have it sync up okay. If you send a pitch-bend message Midi mapped to the tempo in live then you can resend your click back to Max and change tempo say every 4th beat. 
I've done this for a real-time drum tracker - see youtube - search 'b-keeper'

These are the ways I've found for controlling/changing the tempo, the midi option is'nt very responsive this may be down to the fact that it only sends 96 clicks per bar and may need to receive a few of these before it updates it's tempo(also tempo is not 100% regular in timing but samm~ from eric lyons externals can be used instead). 

Hostcontrol~ is very responsive but then max cant run audio, unless maybe the patch is turned in to an application so max can be run separately. 

Rewire~ where max is the rewire host is the most responsive/acurate but then live can't transmit midi notes.

The only way I can see that using pitch bend will be more accurate/responsive than sending midi clock messages is if it sends more clicks per bar. Remember I need to be able to change the tempo at 16th note intervals and midi clock messages aren't really fast enough. If you belive I can do this with pitch bend please let me know as it would be an ideal solution.

Here are different ways of changing tempo.

These are the ways I've found for controlling/changing the tempo, the midi option is'nt very responsive this may be down to the fact that it only sends 96 clicks per bar and may need to receive a few of these before it updates it's tempo(also tempo is not 100% regular in timing but samm~ from eric lyons externals can be used instead). 
Hostcontrol~ is very responsive but then max cant run audio, unless maybe the patch is turned in to an application so max can be run separately. 
Rewire~ where max is the rewire host is the most responsive/acurate but then live can't transmit midi notes.

Yeah thanks Andrew I just found your post below, I completely forgot about controlling Live's tempo using an assigned midi parameter (i.e. pitch bend) I was stuck on the midi clock message route.

Do you happen to know the resolution of pitch bend messages i.e what order of decimal places could I control tempo or would this just be the standard 2 d.p. of live's tempo control display.

I am unsure but I assume when I use max as a rewire host I can control live's tempo to the same amount of decimal places as max's own tempo.

is it any use trying to synchronise with Live by sending MIDI messages that can control things like tempo in Live?

It's not that complicated - involves clicking MIDI and the parameter you want to control in Live, then sending a noteout or xbendout in Max. I used xbendout to control the tempo of Live.

It might be possible to send Midi time code?

I had a problem with re-wire in that I had to use ad_rewire as a driver and this seemed to syop me getting audio input in Max as I no longer had the usual driver.

Of course, this might not be what you're after, but thought I'd throw it in.

Yeah thanks Andrew I just found your post below, I completely forgot about controlling Live's tempo using an assigned midi parameter (i.e. pitch bend) I was stuck on the midi clock message route.
Do you happen to know the resolution of pitch bend messages i.e what order of decimal places could I control tempo or would this just be the standard 2 d.p. of live's tempo control display.
I am unsure but I assume when I use max as a rewire host I can control live's tempo to the same amount of decimal places as max's own tempo.

It's not that complicated - involves clicking MIDI and the parameter you want to control in Live, then sending a noteout or xbendout in Max. I used xbendout to control the tempo of Live.
It might be possible to send Midi time code?

Of course, this might not be what you're after, but thought I'd throw it in.


use this to control Live's tempo - very easy and immediate.

What I do is have a click track come back to Max from Live so I can calculate the difference.

MIDI map in Live - just click MIDI and then the bpm on the left. It's default is between 60 and 200, hence the minus 60 here.

The irony is, I've been wanting to find a way to do it with MTC or something. Then I could do the same with Logic..

What I do is have a click track come back to Max from Live so I can calculate the difference. 

P.S. Remember the usual thing with Midi map, click the paramter to be controlled and then send any old message out.

from my experience I think the resolution is 2d.p. like you say.

I reckon there might be some long term drift - there's at least that possibility. To get round that, you could send a midi click from live every bar to max. then have a click from your metro object. Use timer to tell the difference and add or subtract something to even that problem out. i'd not worry about it at first.

I'm also keen to know if you have any success changing the tempo by any other means. If you search for "b-keeper" on youtube you'll see the first performance I did having Live change tempo automatically.

I'm also keen to know if you have any success changing the tempo by  any other means. If you search for "b-keeper" on youtube you'll see the first performance I did having Live change tempo automatically.


Yeah the video on youtube is cool. I'd like to see what would happen if the drummer played a more syncopated bass drum. So then say the tracking algorithm couldn't work out the tempo from the bass drum, you could then work on sensing say the nodding of the drummer's head (or another body part that will regularly move to the tempo) to work out the tempo. Thus maybe allowing for the drummer to play whatever and not worry about having to play something the algorithm can follow and at worst have to learn to excentuate some of their movements.

Going back to the patch I'd recommend changing the range of tempo in live from 140bpm to 163.84bpm as then for each increase of 1 by the pitch bend value the tempo will increase 0.01 bpm and you wont get any rounding errors as you would using 140 as the range. This is because you're effectively tying to line up something with 14000 (140.00bpm) intervals to 16384 intervals and they won't perfectly line up giving you (occasional) rounding errors. This will make it more accurate.

By the way the I'm now sure the resultion is 2 d.p. (0.01bpm) but only if you do the above, also in the video I couldn't notice any timing drift it all seemed pretty accurate. B-keeper is quite a cool idea when you consider all/most performances currently using both performers and anything sequenced etc. have to be at a constant tempo. It has the potential to open the door for quite alot of experimentation, especially with complex modern jazz style rhythms/perfomances where performers can change tempo up or down. Someone can now actually perform along in time with a laptop, thus making them more an actual part of a band. I'll let you know if I have any success but at the moment using pitch bend (xbendout) does seem like the most accurate way.

Quote: Venetian wrote on Tue, 29 May 2007 14:10

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> from my experience I think the resolution is 2d.p. like you say.

> I reckon there might be some long term drift - there's at least that possibility. To get round that, you could send a midi click from live every bar to max. then have a click from your metro object. Use timer to tell the difference and add or subtract something to even that problem out. i'd not worry about it at first.

> I'm also keen to know if you have any success changing the tempo by any other means. If you search for "b-keeper" on youtube you'll see the first performance I did having Live change tempo automatically.

Would you please tell me how to send click from Live back to Max? I mean, the method and step just like you told me last time.

Sorry maybe I am too stupid but I still got the question about how to send over 20 channels midi information from Max to Live. I pull my patch over there but you didn't answer. Here is the patch and I know there must be something I still don't understand and need some fix. Would you please kindly take a look at it and show me where I did wrong?

Quote: Venetian wrote on Tue, 29 May 2007 14:10
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>
> from my experience I think the resolution is 2d.p. like you say.
>
> I reckon there might be some long term drift - there's at least that possibility. To get round that, you could send a midi click from live every bar to max. then have a click from your metro object. Use timer to tell the difference and add or subtract something to even that problem out. i'd not worry about it at first.
>
> I'm also keen to know if you have any success changing the tempo by  any other means. If you search for "b-keeper" on youtube you'll see the first performance I did having Live change tempo automatically.
>
>
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Would you please tell me how to send click from Live back to Max? I mean, the method and step just like you told me last time. 

Sorry maybe I am too stupid but I still got the question about how to send over 20 channels midi information from Max to Live. I pull my patch over there but you didn't answer. Here is the patch and I know there must be something I still don't understand and need some fix. Would you please kindly take a look at it and show me where I did wrong? 

Midi out from Ableton Live as a ReWire slave