Michael Sperone

I am trying to sync a drum machine up to Max and I'm getting VERY frustrated in the process.

1. Using the drum machine as master (set clock to "int")

[rtin] set up just as the help file says, this did not work... adjusting the tempo would likewise adjust the speed in Max, but they were not the same tempii, it was an odd polyrhythm (something like 19:17... it was hard to keep track)

[rtin] --> [sync~] --> [route bpm] --> [tempo]'s bpm inlet

worked ok, but the tempii drifted a bit, I would like it more accurate than that

using float (the bpm... 100.) --> [sync~] --> [midiout] did not work right, I am getting my drum machine to go at a rate of 1 16th note for every 20 16ths (5 beats) in max.

And I had tried just triggering [t 248] from a [metro] and that gave me another weird polyrhythm, again with the drum machine speeding up and slowing down as I changed the tempo in max, but still not in sync...

I am just about to give up... but I know this can't be that hard... I've read old threads, and gone through help files, and I've tried just about anything...

[rtin]  set up just as the help file says, this did not work... adjusting the tempo would likewise adjust the speed in Max, but they were not the same tempii, it was an odd polyrhythm (something like 19:17... it was hard to keep track)

  worked ok, but the tempii drifted a bit, I would like it more accurate than that

And I had tried just triggering [t 248] from a [metro] and that gave me another weird polyrhythm, again with the drum machine  speeding up and slowing down as I changed the tempo in max, but still not in sync... 

I am just about to give up... but I know this can't be that hard...  I've read old threads, and gone through help files, and I've tried just about anything...

midi-sync-2

so I realized I am using 5.0.5, and I'm trying this again.

Since I had that thing where my ER1 would only advance 1 16th note, for every 20 [t 248] messages max would send, I tried using the [uzi] object and got it to work where if I send 6 bangs for every 16th note in max, then it's perfectly synced up...

so I suppose it's fixed... but I still have questions...

Is this what I should have been doing all along?

Is this a bug in max? Is it a bug in the ER1?

Is there a more efficient/elegant way of doing this?

I would appreciate any answers to any questions, suggestions for better ways of doing this. I attached a patch showing how I got it to work.

PS. slightly OT... why is there an "rtout" object that shows up in the list when I'm typing in "rtin"... but if you try and use it, it's not an object?

Since I had that thing where my ER1 would only advance 1 16th note, for every 20 [t 248] messages max would send, I tried using the [uzi] object and got it to work where if I send 6 bangs for every 16th note in max, then it's perfectly synced up...
so I suppose it's fixed... but I still have questions...

does this sound weird to anyone?
Is this what I should have been doing all along?
Is this a bug in max? Is it a bug in the ER1?
Is there a more efficient/elegant way of doing this?

I would appreciate any answers to any questions, suggestions for better ways of doing this.  I attached a patch showing how I got it to work.

PS.  slightly OT... why is there an "rtout" object that shows up in the list when I'm typing in "rtin"... but if you try and use it, it's not an object?


> And I had tried just triggering [t 248] from a [metro] and that gave

> me another weird polyrhythm, again with the drum machine speeding up

> and slowing down as I changed the tempo in max, but still not in

Check your settings, you want scheduler in overdrive and in audio 

interrupt be checked, and no bang objects connected to tick metros.

You should also post patches for what you tried...

I would try to let transport be the master and sync the drum machine, 

and a request to C74 that transport should definitely support Midi as a 

clock source. (Seems obvious, but seems also not been implemented yet 

Michael schrieb:
> And I had tried just triggering [t 248] from a [metro] and that gave
> me another weird polyrhythm, again with the drum machine  speeding up
> and slowing down as I changed the tempo in max, but still not in
> sync...

Check your settings, you want scheduler in overdrive and in audio 
interrupt be checked, and no bang objects connected to tick metros.

I would try to let transport be the master and sync the drum machine, 
and a request to C74 that transport should definitely support Midi as a 
clock source. (Seems obvious, but seems also not been implemented yet 
unless I am overlooking something...)

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


I wouldn't really ever give up... but on occasion, I feel like it :)

The patch you posted still didn't sync it up right... again, as I increased the tempo in max, my drum machine did speed up, but they still weren't the same tempi. Did you get a chance to check out my reply to myself? I found a way to get it to work using uzi and sending "248" 6 times per 16th note, but that seems like an odd way to do it... and it left me with a few questions as to why that would work.

The patch you posted still didn't sync it up right... again, as I increased the tempo in max, my drum machine did speed up, but they still weren't the same tempi.  Did you get a chance to check out my reply to myself?  I found a way to get it to work using uzi and sending "248" 6 times per 16th note, but that seems like an odd way to do it... and it left me with a few questions as to why that would work.

> Did you get a chance to check out my reply to myself?

> I found a way to get it to work using uzi and sending "248" 6 times

> per 16th note, but that seems like an odd way to do it... and it left

> me with a few questions as to why that would work.

Maybe your drummachine is a little Diva and only wants it that way...?

One have to serve Divas or they stop singing...

Michael schrieb:
> Did you get a chance to check out my reply to myself?

> I found a way to get it to work using uzi and sending "248" 6 times
> per 16th note, but that seems like an odd way to do it... and it left
> me with a few questions as to why that would work.

Maybe your drummachine is a little Diva and only wants it that way...?
One have to serve Divas or they stop singing...

Max 5 as Master, other way around forget it, though it still works better than a masto Logic.

This is a quick extract from a patch, it works pretty well with a korg Er-1, IO vector size should be 128 samps, and I strongly reccomend Overdrive On and Audio Interrupt too On (depending on how many other timing objects you are running).

In this case there is always a (MIDI) signal going out, but the MIDI gear will start and stop according to the 250, 252 messages. And will ensure that it stays in sync.

I often get shifts in sync which appear to be multiples of the sig vec size, you can easily put a remedy on that with the midioffset feature of sync.

With this configuration I keep in sync Live and MIDI gear from Max.

The Er is not really a diva, and the syncing problems happen with much gear, not to mention syncing other computers in the MIDI canonical way. But as italo culture says, there is always a way!

Its easy to patch an automatic start and stop with a Transport, though the previous suggestions of a MIDI syncable Transport are for sure the most appealing...

You can try and sync phasor (lock it) with a transport, but it gives whacky results and I always get sync~ out of sync like this (do not know why, guess it still needs improvements):

It works on paper, but as soon as the patch gets complex its starts to give problems, do not know why though.

This is a quick extract from a patch, it works pretty well with a korg Er-1,  IO vector size should be 128 samps, and I strongly reccomend Overdrive On and Audio Interrupt too On (depending on how many other timing objects you are running).
In this case there is always a (MIDI) signal going out, but the MIDI gear will start and stop according to the 250, 252 messages. And will ensure that it stays in sync.
I often get shifts in sync which appear to be multiples of the sig vec size, you can easily put a remedy on that with the midioffset feature of sync.
With this configuration I keep in sync Live and MIDI gear from Max.

Its easy to patch an automatic start and stop with a Transport, though the previous suggestions of a MIDI syncable Transport are for sure the most appealing...
You can try and sync phasor (lock it) with a transport, but it gives whacky results and I always get  sync~ out of sync like this (do not know why, guess it still needs improvements):
It works on paper, but as soon as the patch gets complex its starts to give problems, do not know why though.

Quote: mike@mikesperone.com wrote on Sat, 08 November 2008 23:14

----------------------------------------------------

> Since I had that thing where my ER1 would only advance 1 16th note, for every 20 [t 248] messages max would send, I tried using the [uzi] object and got it to work where if I send 6 bangs for every 16th note in max, then it's perfectly synced up...

> so I suppose it's fixed... but I still have questions...

midi clock is supposed to be 96 tick messages per bar. one problem with your current patch is the use of uzi to send 6 tick messages per 1/16, which does produce 96 tick messages per bar, but because of uzi it clumps 6 messages together every 1/16th.

i dont think that will be very good for midi timing because, generally, it doesnt handle lots of messages at once (altho this is hardware dependent...).

take a look at the patch below and see if that works better, altho i second the use of overdrive and other dsp settings as mentioned in previous replies.

i cant guarantee this will work as i have nothing to test with at the moment, but i do own an er-1 and can test later...

Quote: mike@mikesperone.com wrote on Sat, 08 November 2008 23:14
----------------------------------------------------
> Since I had that thing where my ER1 would only advance 1 16th note, for every 20 [t 248] messages max would send, I tried using the [uzi] object and got it to work where if I send 6 bangs for every 16th note in max, then it's perfectly synced up...
> so I suppose it's fixed... but I still have questions...

I see this question asked so frequently, and often with a wide variety of replies, I would think there should be a dedicated tutorial on the subject or some ready made patches in the cycling share library.

There are patches in the library as part of the sync~ object but they do seem a little unhelpful and vague. There should be a single tutorial on setting up MidiClock, MTC and MMC as both Master and Slave including the various system runtime messages. Also included in the tutorial should be a subsection on working with PQN.

We're still working on expanding the clocking options for the global transport.

I didn't know about the 96 ticks per bar. These solutions are much nicer than mine. Thanks

I didn't know about the 96 ticks per bar.  These solutions are much nicer than mine.  Thanks

something basic but which just cost me too much time. sync~ only works when max's DSP is on (like all MSP objects i guess). took me a while to figure out cause all my audio stuff is happening in Live while only some simple midi processing is done in max, for which i didn t need the DSP on.

you might get some inspiration from this too: 

https://cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&th=36565

something basic but which just cost me too much time. sync~ only works when max's DSP is on (like all MSP objects i guess). took me a while to figure out cause all my audio stuff is happening in Live while only some simple midi processing is done in max, for which i didn t need the DSP on. 

you might get some inspiration from this too: https://cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&th=36565


The tilde at the end of the name of the object

means that it is a signal-processing object

which relies on the audio being on. That's true

The tilde at the end of the name of the object
means that it is a signal-processing object
which relies on the audio being on. That's true
of any object with a tilde in its name.


On 12 Nov 2008, at 16:44, Gregory Taylor wrote:

> The tilde at the end of the name of the object

> means that it is a signal-processing object

> which relies on the audio being on. That's true

> of any object with a tilde in its name.

There must be an exception somewhere, there must...

I believe that hostsync~ works (at least partially) without DSP running.

> The tilde at the end of the name of the object
> means that it is a signal-processing object
> which relies on the audio being on. That's true
> of any object with a tilde in its name.

Nick Rothwell / Cassiel.com Limited
www.cassiel.com
www.myspace.com/cassieldotcom
www.last.fm/music/cassiel
www.reverbnation.com/cassiel
www.linkedin.com/in/cassiel
www.loadbang.net


On 12 nov. 08, at 19:47, Nick Rothwell wrote:

> On 12 Nov 2008, at 16:44, Gregory Taylor wrote:

>> The tilde at the end of the name of the object

>> means that it is a signal-processing object

>> which relies on the audio being on. That's true

>> of any object with a tilde in its name.

> There must be an exception somewhere, there must...

> I believe that hostsync~ works (at least partially) without DSP 

Centre de Recherches et de Formation Musicales de Wallonie asbl

> On 12 Nov 2008, at 16:44, Gregory Taylor wrote:
>
>> The tilde at the end of the name of the object
>> means that it is a signal-processing object
>> which relies on the audio being on. That's true
>> of any object with a tilde in its name.
>
> There must be an exception somewhere, there must...
>
> I believe that hostsync~ works (at least partially) without DSP  
> running.

_____________________________
Patrick Delges

Centre de Recherches et de Formation Musicales de Wallonie asbl
http://www.crfmw.be/max


> On 12 nov. 08, at 19:47, Nick Rothwell wrote:

>> I believe that hostsync~ works (at least partially) without DSP running.

Patrick Delges schrieb:
>
> On 12 nov. 08, at 19:47, Nick Rothwell wrote:
>> I believe that hostsync~ works (at least partially) without DSP running.
>
> As do [sflist~] and [sfinfo~].
>

Hmmm...after reading this thread, I'm confused.

Is there currently a simple, reliable way to lock the Global Transport to incoming MIDI Clock?

Also, can the Transport be automatically invoked when a patch is loaded? I can't currently work out how to bring up the actual Transport without double-clicking its object.

Hmmm...after reading this thread, I'm confused.
Is there currently a simple, reliable way to lock the Global Transport to incoming MIDI Clock?

> Is there currently a simple, reliable way to lock the Global Transport to incoming MIDI Clock?

as of yet, no... but from what Andrew said, I think they're trying to make that an option.

> Also, can the Transport be automatically invoked when a patch is loaded? I can't currently work out how to bring up the actual Transport without double-clicking its object.

Do you mean the Global transport window? I'm not sure, but you should be able to do all the controls you'd need with the transport object... of course though, I don't know what you're trying to do...

You may be able to use [loadbang] with something, but I don't know if there's a message that will open global transport

Do you mean the Global transport window?  I'm not sure, but you should be able to do all the controls you'd need with the transport object... of course though, I don't know what you're trying to do...
You may be able to use [loadbang] with something, but I don't know if there's a message that will open global transport
