Forums > MaxMSP

neural resonator..any help?

May 8, 2008 | 6:54 am

Hi all, what do you think of this device..

http://www.jomox.de/upload/manuals/Resonator%20Neuronium%20ManualEng.pdf

i’m about to try to build something similar in max..is there anyone else who did something like this?

michele


May 8, 2008 | 7:20 am

more here..

http://www.jayemsonic.de/resoneuroEngl.html


May 8, 2008 | 4:40 pm

This is something I have been interested in for quite some
time. Using neural nets in Max that is…

A neural network is a network of weighting (learning)
functions that have a persistent weighted state. The weighting
function determines what impulses will pass through. When you
start out, your neural net is a blank slate. You have to feed
it data in order to train it.

This article suggests you can train the neural net with audio
feedback which is a very interesting concept. What is not clear
is what the learning function would be used. If the function just
pass the value through, you are not really "learning" anything.
I would be interested to know more about how different learning
functions could be applied and how that would change the flow of
data in the diagram (pic 9). His suggestion of using genetic
algorithms is interesting, but not really "learning".

I think there are all sorts of interesting things you could
explore with neural nets. As far as I know there are no Max
externals out there that implement a neural net. Please let me
know if there is because that would save me a lot of time.
If anybody knows of a good general purpose neural net library,
I would definitely port it.


May 8, 2008 | 4:52 pm

I think CNMAT made an external, but I cant seem to find it right now. I remember having it and not knowing what the heck to do with it. Ive seen others as well, at least one other.

http://www.maxobjects.com/?PHPSESSID=d7068802cc3c611d8ee0ec937c1f3147&PHPSESSID=d7068802cc3c611d8ee0ec937c1f3147&request=neural&operateur=AND&id_plateforme=0&Submit=OK

heres my search on maxobjects.com looks like there’s several. Id love to see a patch made with one that I could study.


May 8, 2008 | 4:57 pm

Anthony Palomba wrote:
> His suggestion of using genetic
> algorithms is interesting, but not really "learning".

GAs have been used with neural nets as ways of ‘evolving’ optimal
network topologies for various problems, which, AFAIK, correlates with
what we know about learning in the cognitive, embodied sense (that
brains aren’t fixed networks of nodes).

I didn’t read the blurb fully yet, but didn’t get much of a neural net
flavour (in the sense of learning structures) so much as a Gordon
Mumma’s cybernetic console kind of vibe. All very interesting …


Owen


May 8, 2008 | 7:21 pm

hi Anthony,
i know a bunch of max objects-patches that deal with something similar but i’ve never been able getting something (to be honest i did not even understand some of these!)..

http://www.olliebown.com/main_blog/?page_id=8

http://www.neuromuse.org/downloads/index.html

best
mic

Quote: Anthony Palomba wrote on Thu, 08 May 2008 18:40
—————————————————-
> This is something I have been interested in for quite some
> time. Using neural nets in Max that is…
>
> A neural network is a network of weighting (learning)
> functions that have a persistent weighted state. The weighting
> function determines what impulses will pass through. When you
> start out, your neural net is a blank slate. You have to feed
> it data in order to train it.
>
> This article suggests you can train the neural net with audio
> feedback which is a very interesting concept. What is not clear
> is what the learning function would be used. If the function just
> pass the value through, you are not really "learning" anything.
> I would be interested to know more about how different learning
> functions could be applied and how that would change the flow of
> data in the diagram (pic 9). His suggestion of using genetic
> algorithms is interesting, but not really "learning".
>
> I think there are all sorts of interesting things you could
> explore with neural nets. As far as I know there are no Max
> externals out there that implement a neural net. Please let me
> know if there is because that would save me a lot of time.
> If anybody knows of a good general purpose neural net library,
> I would definitely port it.
>
>
—————————————————-


May 8, 2008 | 8:06 pm

hmmmm, very interesting. I will check it out.


May 8, 2008 | 11:28 pm

Quote: Axiom-Crux wrote on Thu, 08 May 2008 09:52
—————————————————-
> I think CNMAT made an external, but I cant seem to find it right now.

Here’s our funny webpage about that:

http://archive.cnmat.berkeley.edu/MAX/neural-net.html

This project is dead.

mz


May 9, 2008 | 12:44 am

Too bad there is only a mac version…


May 9, 2008 | 9:53 am

I have an mxj Java class at:

http://miajo.co.uk/?MaxMSP:mxj_nnLists

… though I haven’t had time to check it with Max 5 (I know there are some mxj issues as someone reported my mxj curve~ not working).

Works in Max 4.6.3 though, and I’ll get round to it soon.

For info: This is about 4x slower than a C version by my calculations (the Java code was ported from some of my neural net C code using a similar algorithm).


May 9, 2008 | 9:56 am

…Oh, and there is a FANN (Fast Artificial Neural Network Library) implementation if you search maxobjects.com


May 9, 2008 | 10:12 am

Quote: martinrobinson wrote on Fri, 09 May 2008 11:56
—————————————————-
> …Oh, and there is a FANN (Fast Artificial Neural Network Library) implementation if you search maxobjects.com
—————————————————-

yes you are right, there is also olivier pasquet fann objects, but as above i can’t get anything interesting out of them maybe it’s my fault!

http://www.opasquet.fr/?page_id=8


May 9, 2008 | 3:21 pm

again, only for mac. :(


May 12, 2008 | 2:26 am

The Hartmann Neuron was based on a traditional net:
http://www.hartmann-music.com/home/us/news/
If I recall correctly, the company went bust and the software is
open-source now.

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Anthony Palomba wrote:
>
> This is something I have been interested in for quite some
> time. Using neural nets in Max that is…
>
> A neural network is a network of weighting (learning)
> functions that have a persistent weighted state. The weighting
> function determines what impulses will pass through. When you
> start out, your neural net is a blank slate. You have to feed
> it data in order to train it.
>
> This article suggests you can train the neural net with audio
> feedback which is a very interesting concept. What is not clear
> is what the learning function would be used. If the function just
> pass the value through, you are not really "learning" anything.
> I would be interested to know more about how different learning
> functions could be applied and how that would change the flow of
> data in the diagram (pic 9). His suggestion of using genetic
> algorithms is interesting, but not really "learning".
>
> I think there are all sorts of interesting things you could
> explore with neural nets. As far as I know there are no Max
> externals out there that implement a neural net. Please let me
> know if there is because that would save me a lot of time.
> If anybody knows of a good general purpose neural net library,
> I would definitely port it.
>
>
>
>
>


Morgan Sutherland


May 12, 2008 | 4:10 pm

A google search did not turn up any links to an
open source Hartmann Neuron project. Do you have
any specific links?

A search of sourceforge did turn up a good number
of related projects…

http://sourceforge.net/search/?words=neuron&type_of_search=soft&pmode=0&words=neural&Search=Search

Could be some interesting things there.


May 13, 2008 | 10:59 am

Hi Martin, thanks a lot for sharing your java obj..it seems really interensting and maybe this time i could fine my way through neaural-net..do you have any example patch, practical music implementation i can get inspiration/ideas from?..
how do you use it?
all the best

Quote: martinrobinson wrote on Fri, 09 May 2008 11:53
—————————————————-
> I have an mxj Java class at:
>
> http://miajo.co.uk/?MaxMSP:mxj_nnLists
>
> … though I haven’t had time to check it with Max 5 (I know there are some mxj issues as someone reported my mxj curve~ not working).
>
> Works in Max 4.6.3 though, and I’ll get round to it soon.
>
> For info: This is about 4x slower than a C version by my calculations (the Java code was ported from some of my neural net C code using a similar algorithm).
—————————————————-


May 15, 2008 | 11:44 pm

Do anyone have an idea on how to implement Ashby Homeostat in Max ?

http://www.hrat.btinternet.co.uk/Homeostat.html

Page 15 = http://www.ecila.org/ecila_files/content/papers/ACEMScThesis.pdf

I tried some things… but nothing really working.


May 16, 2008 | 6:11 am

Bertrand Fraysse schrieb:
> Do anyone have an idea on how to implement Ashby Homeostat in Max ?
>
> I tried some things… but nothing really working.

Look at the multislider help file, there is an eeg like example…


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
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– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com


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