lessmore

I am teaching myself Javascript and have been for a while now and when I decided to make the jump to teach myself programming I paralleled the decision in alignment with the job market. I also realized that the Web Audio API was in development hence my desire to learn audio based coding with something I knew would be in demand. My question is...

How come when I do a craigs list search for audio coding, audio programming, game audio etc absolutley nothing appears for MaxMSP ?

Another thing I'm curious about are the small influx of digital arts colleges now teaching MaxMSP. It seems that C74' has created a very strong market in the hobbyist and education areas, but there are literally no professional companies using this software for anything beyond "mockups". Am I missing something here?

no-job-market-for-maxmsp

Companies? Probably not many. Independent developers, a bunch more. I get jobs for developing interactive applications where the tools to use are up to me to decide, and I often pick Max. Also people have been finding me through this forum when they want to contract someone for a Max job specifically. Usually other artists that want to outsource the technical development of a project. And yes, I also get jobs from design and architecture academies for developing their prototypes in Max. Teaching jobs as well.

It seems MaxMSP is a live performance tool for artists but not a programming tool for game companies or serious application development. The former makes sense but for some reason it seems to be marketed as the latter, which it apparently isn't.

For me, it's a tool for creating interactive media and artworks, and I've been lucky enough to show off those kinds works in museums. I think Max is what you make of it, and its place in a professional environment is up to you too. Given that you can make anything from quickly changeable museum interactives, sensory experiences, and any number of performance utilities, I'd say a generic 'job' with Max as a skill requirement would probably be a little ambiguous.

As with all of these things, it's not going to be as easy as Google->'MaxMSP Jobs'. I've had the best experience with Max when people are expecting to see some sort of interactive work but don't know what tools I'll be using. Be creative, combine it with other tools and make the most of what is a brilliant platform to work on. I've been working with various bits of code for the last few days - working with Java and Processing - and sometimes find myself wishing that I could just do some of it in Max.

I think there are people more qualified to talk about this than me anyway, look to people like Luke Woodbury, Julien Bayle, and Andrew Spitz.

I think my point is that MaxMSP isn't a tool that has the flexibility of a conventional programming language. In that regard it kind of actually isn't "what you make of it ", it simply isn't designed to integrate into environments the same way that conventional programming languages allow. As a kind of "art tool" I can see people having a lot of fun and building performance based things integrated with sensors etc , but as a tool that can put you in the same in-demand league as a programmer using a conventional language it is simply is not that. MaxMSP may be able to bridge with game engines but I've never heard of a title actually shipping using MaxMSP as it's audio engine.

If you want to make art or be an "interactive" engineer for live stage shows it seems like a very nice tool to have. If you want to get into programming perse' using a language that you can learn in it's entirety and be confident that in the end you will be in-demand and not wasting your time, I don't see MaxMSP being the smart choice.

I still think Max is a highly flexible tool that shouldn't be underestimated, but yeah, you've said it: it's not a programming language. If you want to be a programmer, learn to program, if you want to make cool interactive stuff, learn Max.

Personally, I find Max suitable for a lot of my needs, and it's sometimes a good mental challenge to push it to its limits. Beyond that, it's been a great gateway to areas that it can't reach, giving me the confidence to take some of the principals I've learned to try and tackle new languages and environments.

I don't think Cycling advertise Max as a replacement for programming languages - it was never designed to be, even in its early form - so don't treat it as such and you can have a great time with it.

Personally, I find Max suitable for a lot of my needs, and it's sometimes a good mental challenge to push it to its limits. Beyond that, it's been a great gateway to areas that it can't reach, giving me the confidence to take some of the principals I've learned to try and tackle new languages and environments. 

I don't think Cycling advertise Max as a replacement for programming languages - it was never designed to be, even in its early form - so don't treat it as such and you can have a great time with it.


Max, in it's core, is a visual programming language and thus has a great flexibility by creating the possibility to combine inputs and outputs of all kind by connecting objects. The mere nature of this visual workflow sets it apart from a great deal of syntax based languages. Max doesn't have to be the same as these former, it's not made for that.

Relatively speaking, the IT world consists more of corporate integrated solutions that consist of server/client packages, cloud services and todays mobile applications. Max can't really play a role here and it shouldn't. If you switch more to the creative industries with it's great share of independent developers, a smaller market, I bet you will see Max more, to quite a lot even. There toolbox is different than than from an .NET web programmer but that's just the way it is. I work in theatre and I see Max used 

 to add multimedia to performances. I provides artists with a means to explore a new world. Their toolbox is a computer, beamers, dancers, light, sound, ... That's were the independent developers come in that tend to combine Max with other platforms/frameworks to get the best result.

Max does integrate with other environments (by using the very popular OSC everything is possible, Javascript, LUA, eg.) . It's just a different way than a traditional API, but it works as well.

Moreover I bet theres a lot of people around, also on this forum including me, that took the step to learn C(++), Java, Javascript, Python, ... after spending some time in Max, having created a sense of programming workflow. That's for me the beautiful thing of it (and I'm still using Max a lot!)

Max, in it's core, is a visual programming language and thus has a great flexibility by creating the possibility to combine inputs and outputs of all kind by connecting objects. The mere nature of this visual workflow sets it apart from a great deal of syntax based languages. Max doesn't have to be the same as these former, it's not made for that.
Relatively speaking, the IT world consists more of corporate integrated solutions that consist of server/client packages, cloud services and todays mobile applications. Max can't really play a role here and it shouldn't. If you switch more to the creative industries with it's great share of independent developers, a smaller market, I bet you will see Max more, to quite a lot even. There toolbox is different than than from an .NET web programmer but that's just the way it is. I work in theatre and I see Max used a lot to add multimedia to performances. I provides artists with a means to explore a new world. Their toolbox is a computer, beamers, dancers, light, sound, ... That's were the independent developers come in that tend to combine Max with other platforms/frameworks to get the best result.
Max does integrate with other environments (by using the very popular OSC everything is possible, Javascript, LUA, eg.) . It's just a different way than a traditional API, but it works as well.

Moreover I bet theres a lot of people around, also on this forum including me, that took the step to learn C(++), Java, Javascript, Python, ... after spending some time in Max, having created a sense of programming workflow. That's for me the beautiful thing of it (and I'm still using Max a lot!)


it really does depend on where you ask and what you can offer in terms of patching.

sometimes you just have to make the business yourself, like most people who have done things with max. especially when max & pluggo was a big part in vst/au/rtas creation some years ago [sniff sniff]. a lot of people had good luck with it.

also myself, first started making tools, sold some, got approached by people to build things for them, and now do stuff in computer games, using max. also sound creation for sample packs, which i use max for, or based on midi stuff. i also do jitter visuals for club evenings for high ranking djs but only because i was in the right place at the right time.

though it has taken time and plenty of proving myself.

its a bitch of a road to do something just with max, thats why its better to have other things to help along with the process.

but in general, you have to make the business yourself.

there can be work with max/msp/jitter.
it really does depend on where you ask and what you can offer in terms of patching.

sometimes you just have to make the business yourself, like most people who have done things with max. especially when max & pluggo was a big part in vst/au/rtas creation some years ago [sniff sniff]. a lot of people had good luck with it.
also myself, first started making tools, sold some, got approached by people to build things for them, and now do stuff in computer games, using max. also sound creation for sample packs, which i use max for, or based on midi stuff. i also do jitter visuals for club evenings for high ranking djs but only because i was in the right place at the right time.
though it has taken time and plenty of proving myself.

its a bitch of a road to do something just with max, thats why its better to have other things to help along with the process.
but in general, you have to make the business yourself.


Could you explain to me how or what "stuff" you do in computer games with MaxMSP exactly?

This is exactly the type of the area I'm curious about.

Could you explain to me how or what "stuff" you do in computer games with MaxMSP exactly?
This is exactly the type of the area I'm curious about.


it involves mainly audio, also midi things.

i use max a lot for handling messages like osc. also as well using things like max for live for music creation for computer games. and even routing to logic etc

max can make things i have not heard/seen before. its kind of like a small add-on for my sounds sometimes.

though try to keep it as simple as possible, because you can spend more time patching than working ;)

it involves mainly audio, also midi things.
i use max a lot for handling messages like osc. also as well using things like max for live for music creation for computer games. and even routing to logic etc

max can make things i have not heard/seen before. its kind of like a small add-on for my sounds sometimes.
though try to keep it as simple as possible, because you can spend more time patching than working ;)


note that "artist" is superior to "company".

"company" must have been something acceptable in the 80ies, but today it is no longer cool.

Cycling 74' IS a "Company". I'm sure they laugh at teenage "angst" statements like that. :)

@Lewish Edwards, I see. You're using MaxMSP for sound creation for games, not as an audio engine.

btw, the "university" model of life also has failed.

Ok, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest. I'll just wish you well in using software tools like MaxMSP which are created by a profitable company like cycling'74 which in turn was founded by a university graduate with a doctorate in Hearing & Speech Sciences to help you do your "superior" art while paradoxically making you a brand cheerleader who presumably pays them for their software.

You can believe art is "superior" all you want, but you're really just setting yourself up to have your own hypocrisy fed back to you.

And I really don't know what any of this has to do with my initial query which has been answered at this point.

You can believe art is "superior" all you want, but you're really just setting yourself up to have your own hypocrisy fed back to you. 

And I really don't know what any of this has to do with my initial query which has been answered at this point.


I consider the work I do in max-msp extremely "serious" indeed, and sometimes it helps me pay the bills. I wouldn't start a game-dev company based around it though.... And I've blown away a few game-engine programmers with some techniques that I would have only discovered thru msp/jitter. They got much better fps though....

I consider the work I do in max-msp extremely "serious" indeed, and sometimes it helps me pay the bills.  I wouldn't start a game-dev company based around it though....   And I've blown away a few game-engine programmers with some techniques that I would have only discovered thru msp/jitter.  They got much better fps though....


I think that visual programming environments (Max, PD etc.) are really at the borderline of the definition of a 'programming language'. Strictly speaking, they definitely are programming languages, at least in the Wikipedia sense (languages that can express all possible algorithms, see 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language

 ). However, I personally don't consider Max a programming language, for me as a composer it is much more a toolbox for creating sound, a playground for musical ideas.

I wouldn't really use Max for computer game programming. A serious reason for this is that you can't embed Max in an external software, at least I don't know of any ways that would let me run Max in the background, without a GUI and menu system and an application icon appearing in the Dock (in other words, you can't embed Max into a program in the PD-sense). However, if I was a game designer, I would surely use Max in my lab to create the sounds used by that game.

I think that visual programming environments (Max, PD etc.) are really at the borderline of the definition of a 'programming language'. Strictly speaking, they definitely are programming languages, at least in the Wikipedia sense (languages that can express all possible algorithms, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language ). However, I personally don't consider Max a programming language, for me as a composer it is much more a toolbox for creating sound, a playground for musical ideas.

"contest" and most other forms of competition (as opposed to cooperation) are also out. these models also have failed too often.

about cycling74, i am not really sure if cycling74 employs someone for programming max/msp, except for the potions of max/msp which were made with max/msp. but in case they do: gratulations, because then you just answered your own initial query. :)

hard to tell where the borderline is but i think one could say max makes a perfect programming language for sounddesign and for prototyping stuff you will later rewrite in machine language for 56k.

or does a "real" language need to have something to do with making stable consumer applications? (or with the existence of a job market?)

a language by definition is a system of symbols including how they interact, and how humans (or animals or machines) do aquire and use it to communicate.

these symbols have certain meanings, and languages can be read, written, or spoken in a specific manner and translated into other languages.

a language by definition is a system of symbols including how they interact, and how humans (or animals or machines) do aquire and use it to communicate.
these symbols have certain meanings, and languages can be read, written, or spoken in a specific manner and translated into other languages.

lessmore, try to ignore Roman, our resident advisor on all things cool.

For me Max is an environment in which programming can be embedded. And for a long time I would just bounce off the walls, kidding myself that it would be all I'd need to know. Max is great for prototyping, you can build applications in it, but you're at the mercy of other people's code when things go wrong, and when you start to get problems that are almost impossible to reproduce reliably, it's frustrating. I've started my programming journey with Javascript, and find myself using it more and more within Max now, because when I'm developing software, it genuinely makes my life easier. Nobody comes to pat you on the back when you've solved some headache of a problem in 1 week just using Max, when you could have done it in a day using another language. It's your time that you waste if you work like that.

In response to your original question, I do not think that a person can rely solely on Max for employment that pays the bills. There's probably < 50 people who can call it their main environment, but I'd imagine all of them have extra skills with code and/or hardware knowledge.

lessmore, try to ignore Roman, our resident advisor on all things cool. 

For me Max is an environment in which programming can be embedded. And for a long time I would just bounce off the walls, kidding myself that it would be all I'd need to know. Max is great for prototyping, you can build applications in it, but you're at the mercy of other people's code when things go wrong, and when you start to get problems that are almost impossible to reproduce reliably, it's frustrating. I've started my programming journey with Javascript, and find myself using it more and more within Max now, because when I'm developing software, it genuinely makes my life easier. Nobody comes to pat you on the back when you've solved some headache of a problem in 1 week just using Max, when you could have done it in a day using another language. It's your time that you waste if you work like that. 

In response to your original question, I do not think that a person can rely solely on Max for employment that pays the bills. There's probably < 50 people who can call it their main environment, but I'd imagine all of them have extra skills with code and/or hardware knowledge.


There are companies that use Max/MSP as a development language. Just not so many that they advertise every week on Craig's list. You're more likely to see a "Help Wanted Max/MSP" developer on this list, and only once maybe every month or three.

No one's mentioned another potential market: working freelance, assisting artists on their projects. I am regularly asked to do this type of work (which, unfortunately, I cannot do). If you lived in, say, New York, London, or Berlin, it'd be possible to get a lot of work in this area, if you pushed for it. You'd have to be very good and very easy to work with. You'd also have to relish working with artists, who can be unpredictable, and whose budgets range from excellent to miserable.

> No one's mentioned another potential market:

For me it's a (fun and useful) side thing but I know people that make this their main occupation. Don't limit yourself to Max though. Much better prospects if you can deliver a wide range of skills.

> No one's mentioned another potential market: 

For me it's a (fun and useful) side thing but I know people that make this their main occupation. Don't limit yourself to Max though. Much better prospects if you can deliver a wide range of skills.


If you don't working on your own projects (doing personal projects in max is something typical, I think) you may - in my opinion - to try to establish some cooperations with people looking for a developer or an art institution. It is a real market in main opinion.

FUCK! I missed an argument! (hehehehe, it seems Roman is the one around here with the greatest convictions of integrity over individuality and personality :D)

You've been on these forums for about 2 weeks, it's understandable you've never seen Roman around here before. Trust me, if you don't understand what he's telling you, you're probably not going to want to find a Max/MSP job, because the kind of people who work in such an industry are alot like him: creative, original, and distrusting-of-capitalistic-authorities. People HAVE to be this way in order to retain their sanity, particularly doing work day in and day out with something as anomalous as Max. Everything he said was absolute truth. And you probably won't be able to find a Max/MSP job if you're thinking too formulaically about max/msp(meanwhile max/msp is not a very formulaic way of programming, it is actually one of the most idiosyncratic).

also, 3 weeks ago i posted my latest max/msp job:

https://cycling74.com/forums/arximobiussciencecenter-maxmsp-devved-exhibit

(i do not post to boast, only to inspire... but the inspiration should be taken with a grain of salt which i'm hoping to explain...)

max/msp jobs you'll find are not the way to go to make the brunt of your living. when you use max/msp in the professional world, rather than in a personal artistic way, you learn real quick exactly what Mike S was saying about efficient use of time.

Max/MSP started out being peddled to academia first and foremost for a reason: it serves best as a pedagogical tool. Max/MSP is like the Alice of the newmedia-programming world. (I know, I know... everyone here wants to think they're ridiculously smart and special for knowing it well. i'm sorry, no one here is, simply by their max/msp skill alone. the people who are most active on these forums(i've been watching you all!), are here so much because they often need to get somewhere else...i'm sure many will try to deny this to themselves, too, much like i did for the longest time ;) but they would have to show by example, how their careers have blossomed. And outside of academia, the only people who could show this with any truly admirable proof, are probably too busy to be here. that's how the elite get to where they are: NOT just by sharing and borrowing, but by teaching themselves in any cutthroat and competitive way that they can. it's a bit like the music-industry, except since max/msp is far less lucrative, it is a much uglier slaughter for those who cannot make the grade). This also goes along with what Kurt Ralske was saying: you can find even more work serving free-lance artists, but those artists will constantly lookout for anyone who has more skill and can offer it cheaper than you, forcing you to be careful what you share with others and what you contribute to the artists themselves, and it also forces you most importantly, to put aside your own ideas about creativity and efficiency, just so you can facilitate rather than compete with the artists' visions themselves. it is often uninspiring, unless you are lucky to work with the best artist of your liking(then you take on the project out of sheer interest: but this is not how most real-world jobs go, even real-world max/msp jobs... employers often hire max developers when those employers are not smart enough to think of a code-based solution, or they know they can pay much less for max development than something more low-level

I am also living proof, out of the past several years, the job i posted above was by far the best, because the designer, Christian Bannister was inspiring and brilliant. But he still worked under a larger umbrella company, who paid me according to the less inspiring criteria i listed above. Even the successes in this world are minute, short-lived, and hard to keep up, let alone grow.

When you finally find a Max/MSP job(i've had a few more than this one), it feels pretty unspectacular. You end up realizing that you've wasted quite a bit of time learning how to be amateur about development because you could've learned a more generally applicable programming language that would make you more enticing to employers mostly because you would share the same coding knowledge and techniques that other people in the real world have: the ability to truly think in terms of object-oriented-programming without having it obscured by a graphical programming environment(the graphical nature makes it hard to show how objects work in terms of classes and how those classes can relate behaviorally, putting priority on ease of data flow and communication, rather than organization). If you learn a 'real' language, then you end up being able to collaborate more easily with real people in the real world for this very reason.

But there's more: you also realize the benefit of code-based object-oriented-programming. Controlling data flow can be much more concise and efficient, because you don't have to learn all the idiosyncracies of the max graphical programming environment in order to just get something simple. Also, have you ever thought about how difficult it is to share a development project of Max/MSP over a versioning system? (hopefully the new project system will improve on this, but so far, it's a nightmare...)... Max gets you to think graphically, in a world best served by code. Code is better and more easily organized, it is more efficient, and MOST IMPORTANTLY: is the most concise and efficient set of systems which humans have found so far to implement 'design patterns'(the conciseness and efficiency varies from language to language but basic coding principles still apply to all code-based languages which, even if they exist in Max, are normally obscured by the graphical nature of max).

if you want to find a job involving max/msp, you should focus on getting better at it for your own artistic purposes and train your mind never to expect a job, then when you finally find a max/msp job, you might actually be pleasantly surprised(because it is more likely to pay you to do what you've gained recognition for creatively-AND-technically as opposed to just technically and, for obvious reasons, this would make it more fun), rather than bored and depressed to find that such a beautiful design-experience could turn into something so mundanely dreary.

Be careful what you ask for, and be clear to yourself about where your heart truly lies: money? contentment? creativity? progress? it's different for everyone.

FUCK! I missed an argument! (hehehehe, it seems Roman is the one around here with the greatest convictions of integrity over individuality and personality :D) 

@lessmore
You've been on these forums for about 2 weeks, it's understandable you've never seen Roman around here before. Trust me, if you don't understand what he's telling you, you're probably not going to want to find a Max/MSP job, because the kind of people who work in such an industry are alot like him: creative, original, and distrusting-of-capitalistic-authorities. People HAVE to be this way in order to retain their sanity, particularly doing work day in and day out with something as anomalous as Max. Everything he said was absolute truth. And you probably won't be able to find a Max/MSP job if you're thinking too formulaically about max/msp(meanwhile max/msp is not a very formulaic way of programming, it is actually one of the most idiosyncratic).

also, 3 weeks ago i posted my latest max/msp job:
https://cycling74.com/forums/arximobiussciencecenter-maxmsp-devved-exhibit
(i do not post to boast, only to inspire... but the inspiration should be taken with a grain of salt which i'm hoping to explain...)
max/msp jobs you'll find are not the way to go to make the brunt of your living. when you use max/msp in the professional world, rather than in a personal artistic way, you learn real quick exactly what Mike S was saying about efficient use of time.
Max/MSP started out being peddled to academia first and foremost for a reason: it serves best as a pedagogical tool. Max/MSP is like the Alice of the newmedia-programming world. (I know, I know... everyone here wants to think they're ridiculously smart and special for knowing it well. i'm sorry, no one here is, simply by their max/msp skill alone. the people who are most active on these forums(i've been watching you all!), are here so much because they often need to get somewhere else...i'm sure many will try to deny this to themselves, too, much like i did for the longest time ;) but they would have to show by example, how their careers have blossomed. And outside of academia, the only people who could show this with any truly admirable proof, are probably too busy to be here. that's how the elite get to where they are: NOT just by sharing and borrowing, but by teaching themselves in any cutthroat and competitive way that they can. it's a bit like the music-industry, except since max/msp is far less lucrative, it is a much uglier slaughter for those who cannot make the grade). This also goes along with what Kurt Ralske was saying: you can find even more work serving free-lance artists, but those artists will constantly lookout for anyone who has more skill and can offer it cheaper than you, forcing you to be careful what you share with others and what you contribute to the artists themselves, and it also forces you most importantly, to put aside your own ideas about creativity and efficiency, just so you can facilitate rather than compete with the artists' visions themselves. it is often uninspiring, unless you are lucky to work with the best artist of your liking(then you take on the project out of sheer interest: but this is not how most real-world jobs go, even real-world max/msp jobs... employers often hire max developers when those employers are not smart enough to think of a code-based solution, or they know they can pay much less for max development than something more low-level
I am also living proof, out of the past several years, the job i posted above was by far the best, because the designer, Christian Bannister was inspiring and brilliant. But he still worked under a larger umbrella company, who paid me according to the less inspiring criteria i listed above. Even the successes in this world are minute, short-lived, and hard to keep up, let alone grow.
When you finally find a Max/MSP job(i've had a few more than this one), it feels pretty unspectacular. You end up realizing that you've wasted quite a bit of time learning how to be amateur about development because you could've learned a more generally applicable programming language that would make you more enticing to employers mostly because you would share the same coding knowledge and techniques that other people in the real world have: the ability to truly think in terms of object-oriented-programming without having it obscured by a graphical programming environment(the graphical nature makes it hard to show how objects work in terms of classes and how those classes can relate behaviorally, putting priority on ease of data flow and communication, rather than organization). If you learn a 'real' language, then you end up being able to collaborate more easily with real people in the real world for this very reason.
But there's more: you also realize the benefit of code-based object-oriented-programming. Controlling data flow can be much more concise and efficient, because you don't have to learn all the idiosyncracies of the max graphical programming environment in order to just get something simple. Also, have you ever thought about how difficult it is to share a development project of Max/MSP over a versioning system? (hopefully the new project system will improve on this, but so far, it's a nightmare...)... Max gets you to think graphically, in a world best served by code. Code is better and more easily organized, it is more efficient, and MOST IMPORTANTLY: is the most concise and efficient set of systems which humans have found so far to implement 'design patterns'(the conciseness and efficiency varies from language to language but basic coding principles still apply to all code-based languages which, even if they exist in Max, are normally obscured by the graphical nature of max).

Be careful what you ask for, and be clear to yourself about where your heart truly lies: money? contentment? creativity? progress? it's different for everyone.


Pardon me, but I don't really feel that you need a 'philosophy' to be a Max user. Max is a tool; no more, no less. As I said before, I personally don't consider Max as a real programming language, but that's basically because of my background. At the time when I first met Max, I had already worked for companies for years developing application back-ends in C++, Java or SQL. Compared to those languages, Max is much more an easy way of glueing things together in a very fast and efficient way than a 'real' programming language (my own way of using Max is that I program the 'patch logic' as a set of externals in C or Java, depending on what I find easier, and then I glue them together in Max). Again, it depends on your needs. As a composer, Max is my no. 1 tool (OK, the only thing that I couldn't suppress from my toolkit until today is superVP, as the Max version of it is far from being complete). I could also imagine using Max for prototyping, either sound or application logic. But I wouldn't jump into serious programming tasks with Max, and I feel that that was the original question of the OP.

I would also argue with the statement that Max is basically a tool for education. This is simply not true; my experience with my own classmates was that Max is one of most hard-to-understand tools for average composer students at college. There are other tools that are much easier to understand. I think the most important market for Max are those professionals that work in the so-called 'audio-visual-art-industry', whatever that means (composers, DJs, VJs, media artists etc.) and who can't express themselves by only using mainstream products (like ProTools etc).

If you expect to work as a game developer, Max can come handy when you design your sounds, but I'm pretty sure that nobody will ask you to deliver a Max patch as the core of a computer game's sound engine. If you want to do professional-level creative work, you probably won't avoid Max and/or PD. You just need to decide what your dreams are, and choose your appropriate tool for it. And you surely don't need philosophies to do this. For instance, I'm a convinced capitalist (and proud of it), and I still use Max... (Man, you should really come to live for a couple of years to Eastern Europe and then you would beg for a proper capitalist system...)

>If you expect to work as a game developer, Max can come handy when you design your sounds, but I'm pretty sure that nobody will ask you to

>deliver a Max patch as the core of a computer game's sound engine.

One of the things that's been missing so far in this discussion is that everyone seems to assume they somehow know the configuration of in-house systems that various companies provide to their audio designers for the purposes of game development.

I continue to be amazed when I discover just how varied those environments are - often varying widely among working groups within the context of a larger company. Depending on the situation, you may not *know* what specific environments are being used in your job-to-be, and some employers won't necessarily discuss those matters in detail on a first interview.

In my experience, the prudent course of action is that you should feel free to list any number of programming environments in which you feel you're fluent rather than letting someone else tell you what is and is not an "appropriate programming environment." The landscape of the current gaming business resembles feature filmmaking more than anything else, and niche ecologies abound (although you're not necessarily going to know about them when you walk in the door). The line on your resumé will, at the very least, provide an opportunity to describe your expertise in any given area and to construct a narrative in the interview that allows you to tell a better and clearer story about yourself and your talents.

In a world in which job applicants train and present themselves as though a specific language is some kind of one-size-fits-all credential, the ability to speak widely with intelligence and discernment about a variety of approaches may prove to be an intelligent strategy. I expect the mileage of others may vary.

>If you expect to work as a game developer, Max can come handy when you design your sounds, but I'm pretty sure that nobody will ask you to
>deliver a Max patch as the core of a computer game's sound engine. 

One of the things that's been missing so far in this discussion is that everyone seems to assume they somehow know the configuration of in-house systems that various companies provide to their audio designers for the purposes of game development. 

I continue to be amazed when I discover just how varied those environments are - often varying widely among working groups within the context of a larger company. Depending on the situation, you may not *know* what specific environments are being used in your job-to-be, and some employers won't necessarily discuss those matters in detail on a first interview. 

In my experience, the prudent course of action is that you should feel free to list any number of programming environments in which you feel you're fluent rather than letting someone else tell you what is and is not an "appropriate programming environment." The landscape of the current gaming business resembles feature filmmaking more than anything else, and niche ecologies abound (although you're not necessarily going to know about them when you walk in the door). The line on your resumé will, at the very least, provide an opportunity to describe your expertise in any given area and to construct a narrative in the interview that allows you to tell a better and clearer story about yourself and your talents. 

In a world in which job applicants train and present themselves as though a specific language is some kind of one-size-fits-all credential, the ability to speak widely with intelligence and discernment about a variety of approaches may prove to be an intelligent strategy. I expect the mileage of others may vary.


Max is certainly a 'real' programming language, a member of a class of languages known as VPLs (Visual Programming Languages). It's Turing complete. The Max part models the event-driven programming paradigm and the MSP part is essentially a dataflow language which is why it works very well with audio and signal processing. It's got lots of the properties considered important in language design, including abstraction, encapsulation and extendibility.

I disagree completely with the notion that it might not be real because it's just used as glue to call out to externals in C or Java. Many languages work exactly the same way and are very dependent on a runtime library often implemented in a completely different language. People have been doing that kind of "gluing" since the days of Smalltalk if not earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language.

 IEEE has sponsored quite a few conferences and journals devoted to VPLs.

Max is much more an easy way of glueing things together in a very fast and efficient way than a 'real' programming language (my own way of using Max is that I program the 'patch logic' as a set of externals in C or Java, depending on what I find easier, and then I glue them together in Max).

Lots more information at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language. IEEE has sponsored quite a few conferences and journals devoted to VPLs.

--------------
Max is much more an easy way of glueing things together in a very fast and efficient way than a 'real' programming language (my own way of using Max is that I program the 'patch logic' as a set of externals in C or Java, depending on what I find easier, and then I glue them together in Max).


^hahahahaha, nicolas, this is the best kind of reply :D

oh, and i think i understand why people call it a 'real' language. i meant more that it is not a 'real' object-oriented programming language: anyone who claims that max classes (in the graphical environment alone, not programming externals in C++ or anything like that) achieve inheritance is obviously very easily pleased with any toy-like method of such a concept.

It would also be interesting to hear how staff members such as Gregory have made a living selling their max apps or working at max development(for a living, not just for favors) outside of working for Cycling74(because obviously working for that company doesn't count and Gregory and the others so far would be guilty of simply offering a biased sales-pitch if they relied on that body of experience alone).

also, 'glueing things together fast' is hardly ever efficient(certainly not in Max). i think 'efficient' in such a sentence is obviously a very subjective measure(even where time-usage is concerned: western civilizations always mistake fast for efficient, not realizing they are ridiculously poor at achieving greater benefits and ease over the long-term future: Max is the same way in terms of organization). i'm glad to get folks thinking, though ;)

one last thing i want to inquire about specifically from you to make sure i'm clear about what you're saying, because i respect your words more than most here(others have a shitty way of helping around here, but you don't just talk a bunch of self-aggrandizing bullshit like most of the community here(including myself ;D). i like your work, it shows that you know what you're talking about...). but what did you mean by this:

"Pardon me, but I don't really feel that you need a 'philosophy' to be a Max user."? It seems to have come out of nowhere since i don't recall anyone here saying that a 'philosophy' was needed?

@siska adam
one last thing i want to inquire about specifically from you to make sure i'm clear about what you're saying, because i respect your words more than most here(others have a shitty way of helping around here, but you don't just talk a bunch of self-aggrandizing bullshit like most of the community here(including myself ;D). i like your work, it shows that you know what you're talking about...). but what did you mean by this:
"Pardon me, but I don't really feel that you need a 'philosophy' to be a Max user."? It seems to have come out of nowhere since i don't recall anyone here saying that a 'philosophy' was needed?


"western civilizations always mistake fast for efficient" -> seems you haven't spent a lot of time in "eastern civilizations", at least from China, where I am living now, i get another perspective :-)

From a didactive point of view i consider the MaxMspJitter graphical programming environment as a precious toolkit, that makes computer and technology better understandable. It let you create, control and modify environments without some of the limitations of more customized software. The high-level graphical patching approach is a good compromise between preciseness and user-friendliness. I consider it as an important skill to learn more about the traps, hidden potentials and lost folds of our apparatuses that encompasses us. From here, i would say it is really perfect for artists. If they once really encounter its (or their) limitations, at least they should have a basic understanding where to orientate further...

From a didactive point of view i consider the MaxMspJitter graphical programming environment as a precious toolkit, that makes computer and technology better understandable. It let you create, control and modify environments without some of the limitations of more customized software. The high-level graphical patching approach is a good compromise between preciseness and user-friendliness. I consider it as an important skill to learn more about the traps, hidden potentials and lost folds of our apparatuses that encompasses us. From here, i would say it is really perfect for artists. If they once really encounter its (or their) limitations, at least they should have a basic understanding where to orientate further...
And artists do make money as well...


My previous post mentioned no specific software at all, Raja. I'm sorry if it was less clear than it should have been, but my intention was to point out that instead of trying to think as though some specific piece of software is somehow going to guarantee you a job, it might be useful to develop a broad set of skills, list them, and use that listing as a possible opportunity to demonstrate not only that you can code or patch, but that you have a sense of what things might be appropriate and *why* you'd make a given choice. If you're applying to work within the corporate culture of any number of large game companies, you may not *know* about all of the tools being used in the firm to do various kinds of work. In such a case, being specific about the general curve of your skills is also a benefit - it may provide an interviewer with an important insight into your abilities outside of the narrow confines of a specific kind of coding or patching. While those skills certainly could include Max, the same would be true in the case of Processing, Supercollider, Isidora, Pd, vvvv or .

""western civilizations always mistake fast for efficient" -> seems you haven't spent a lot of time in "eastern civilizations", at least from China, where I am living now, i get another perspective :-)"

haha, true enough(although some of the current problems in both India and China could be a attributed to 'western' influences :p)... still, i go too far with the passion of my cynicism(and it makes me realize, perhaps siska, in saying "need a 'philosophy'" was referring to me saying Roman and others "HAVE" to be a certain way, which again loses in too much passion(over my insanity) the intent which was to say that some folks have no choice(trying to remain sane over reconciling how they feel about their work in opposition to how an industry 'values' it), rather than imply a philosophy... but who knows? maybe Siska wasn't even addressing my words :p :D

"My previous post mentioned no specific software at all, Raja. I'm sorry if it was less clear than it should have been, but my intention was to point out that instead of trying to think as though some specific piece of software is somehow going to guarantee you a job, it might be useful to develop a broad set of skills"

No apologies necessary(ever). I was just being challenging. :D I think I understood what you originally said and agree: it is better to become well-rounded, rather than guess at a possible avenue of specialization. But aside from that(perhaps even off-topic), am curious to hear of how some of you who work at Cycling74, feel about how your work is received in an industry context. From what i've seen, everyone there has a different opinion and experience(it would be interesting to hear, beyond how max/msp can be 'sold' as 'useful', whether some of these outside-industry-contexts reverberate with how you all actually 'feel' it is 'meaningful'....) ...but now since you've done so, i feel i should also apologize for framing it all in such a facetious way(overall i'm saying exactly what you were saying... but did it with too much passion in trying to get someone new to the industry to really think about what's in their heart, rather than what needs to be on their resume... so they don't make the same mistakes i did).

haha, true enough(although some of the current problems in both India and China could be a attributed to 'western' influences :p)... still, i go too far with the passion of my cynicism(and it makes me realize, perhaps siska, in saying "need a 'philosophy'" was referring to me saying Roman and others "HAVE" to be a certain way, which again loses in too much passion(over my insanity) the intent which was to say that some folks have no choice(trying to remain sane over reconciling how they feel about their work in opposition to how an industry 'values' it), rather than imply a philosophy... but who knows? maybe Siska wasn't even addressing my words :p :D 

@Gregory
"My previous post mentioned no specific software at all, Raja. I'm sorry if it was less clear than it should have been, but my intention was to point out that instead of trying to think as though some specific piece of software is somehow going to guarantee you a job, it might be useful to develop a broad set of skills"

This, to me, is the single biggest issue for me in working with Max, and it is not even about sharing. As a matter of course, I use version control just for my own projects so I can get back to earlier versions and the inability to compare different versions of a patcher has bitten me many times. (Comparing the underlying text is useless because stuff often gets stored in different order so the versions look completely different textually).

It would be great to have a tool that one could use with version control systems that would quickly allow different versions of patchers to be viewed graphically.

Also, have you ever thought about how difficult it is to share a development project of Max/MSP over a versioning system?

____________________
Also, have you ever thought about how difficult it is to share a development project of Max/MSP over a versioning system?


I'm just doing the same as you, and I just want to second everything you said. Although I've never tried to do shared development in MaxMSP (it would be fascinating to try BTW), I can imagine that it's not much fun, specially when you try to merge two working copies which have modifications in the same patch. ;-)

I was meaning exactly what you also figured out, the 'have to be a certain way' things. My opinion (again) is, that I've seen too many people who are completely different the one from the other and all of them doing interesting things. Specially in an artistic environment, I would really be careful with statements about how people should think (and specially considering that we're not even discussing here about artistic beliefs or aesthetics, 'just' about a software tool and its market). And also, life is much more complicated than what one could summarize in a couple of statements. Just think about what a 'western civilization' (or an 'eastern' one) is? If they exist at all in the way you think about them? Personally, my life until now was not long enough even to _really_ learn and know my own hometown (Budapest) and its culture... Honestly, I can completely understand your frustration about your own work not being recognized by the mainstream music industry, as I am (and I guess, most of us on these forums are) in the very same situation. But (at least from my part) this was a decision that I made _before_ jumping into the 'weird music world', and I don't really regret it. Probably the music that I compose wouldn't sound the same if I would be under the pressure of attracting a lot of audience with it. Demographically, most of the people (at least in Hungary) don't really know much about music, which means, that if you want to attract a huge crowd, you need to base your work on a very basic musical language which is easy to understand without too much musical training. I don't want to do that. On the other hand, I don't blame those people who don't have the time to learn music on a deeper level. Don't forget, that if everybody would spend most of their times with music making (or just listening), nobody would make bread for us...

Ádám (which is my first name, according to the 'Eastern name order', which is used in Hungary BTW.)

@dhjdhjdhj
I'm just doing the same as you, and I just want to second everything you said. Although I've never tried to do shared development in MaxMSP (it would be fascinating to try BTW), I can imagine that it's not much fun, specially when you try to merge two working copies which have modifications in the same patch. ;-)

@raja
I was meaning exactly what you also figured out, the 'have to be a certain way' things. My opinion (again) is, that I've seen too many people who are completely different the one from the other and all of them doing interesting things. Specially in an artistic environment, I would really be careful with statements about how people should think (and specially considering that we're not even discussing here about artistic beliefs or aesthetics, 'just' about a software tool and its market). And also, life is much more complicated than what one could summarize in a couple of statements. Just think about what a 'western civilization' (or an 'eastern' one) is? If they exist at all in the way you think about them? Personally, my life until now was not long enough even to _really_ learn and know my own hometown (Budapest) and its culture... Honestly, I can completely understand your frustration about your own work not being recognized by the mainstream music industry, as I am (and I guess, most of us on these forums are) in the very same situation. But (at least from my part) this was a decision that I made _before_ jumping into the 'weird music world', and I don't really regret it. Probably the music that I compose wouldn't sound the same if I would be under the pressure of attracting a lot of audience with it. Demographically, most of the people (at least in Hungary) don't really know much about music, which means, that if you want to attract a huge crowd, you need to base your work on a very basic musical language which is easy to understand without too much musical training. I don't want to do that. On the other hand, I don't blame those people who don't have the time to learn music on a deeper level. Don't forget, that if everybody would spend most of their times with music making (or just listening), nobody would make bread for us...

Cheers,
Ádám (which is my first name, according to the 'Eastern name order', which is used in Hungary BTW.)


"there is no job market for max", because that is not what max was made for, it was made

for other puposes, and it was made for other purposes because the people who made it

thought it was cool to make it like that.

there is no job market for max, because a straight orientation to "job market" is no longer

living a bourgeois life as of today means that you are an almost 100% opponent to the

current capitalist system. please note that beeing a bourgeois among other things for

example does not automatically mean not beeing a humanist. the system does.

who gives a shit about what the "mainstream music industry" thinks about 

http://laut8leise.de/_l8l/_music/110.terpen.mp3

i ask because i dont know. i could escape the achievement-oriented society about 10 years ago, and in between i dont even watch TV.

1.)
"there is no job market for max", because that is not what max was made for, it was made
for other puposes, and it was made for other purposes because the people who made it
thought it was cool to make it like that.
there is no job market for max, because a straight orientation to "job market" is no longer
cool.
what is so difficult to understand here?

2.)
living a bourgeois life as of today means that you are an almost 100% opponent to the
current capitalist system. please note that beeing a bourgeois among other things for
example does not automatically mean not beeing a humanist. the system does.

3.)
who gives a shit about what the "mainstream music industry" thinks about http://laut8leise.de/_l8l/_music/110.terpen.mp3 ?

"I would really be careful with statements about how people should think"

likewise, i would be really careful, if i were you, to jump to quick conclusions about what people say. The expression, "people have to do [so-and-so] in order to survive" does not imply anything about telling them what to think, it means literally: they, themselves, of their OWN volition, think this way, because their survival (or sanity, as i mentioned before) depends on it. I think maybe it is you, who jumped to a really ignorant conclusion.

also, if you don't know me, you have no idea that i equate 'western civilization' with 'capitalistic societies'(nor do i need to explain that... until someone actually shows interest enough by asking me to clarify... then i can tell those who would snap to quick judgments apart from those who wouldn't... it's my own survival reflex). it's clear to people from the 3rd world, which current 1st world countries had oppressed them with colonialism prior to that(and many of those places are still recovering), plus which places were exploited by more current corporate practices of those same advantaged areas of the world. and it is just as clear to see that those same 1st world countries are struggling because that same attitude of trying to get something overnight with a minimum of effort on their part, is finally failing them. this recession is definitely what we deserve. until these facts are considered more carefully, even made reparations for, neither I, nor anyone else, need be sensitive about referring to it as '1st World', 'Western Civilization' or 'White Trash'....it's ALL the same to me. nor, for that matter, do i need to pay my condolences or feel bad at all when terrorism runs rampant: insensitivity breeds insensitivity, but it also does help to show the ugliness to those who wish they could hide from it in technological and capitalistic privilege.

on a sidenote: i am also not for peace(in case i sound like i was ever trying to reach anyone with my words about 'civilization'...i was not. civilization simply doesn't exist on this earth), i am absolutely for a continuum of violence and peace achieving dominance at different times in order to maintain an overall equilibrium(people do not deserve absolute peace, it makes them too happy-go-lucky and uncaring, not to mention forgetful of history).

all this is just to say: you probably shouldn't tell me to be careful about anything, if you don't expect me to come right back with the same to you and point out the hypocrisy of telling me what to think ;)

think of the utterly ridiculous blanket-statements you've made as well:

1) there was never any mention of the actual word 'philosophy' so it's as if you tried to place words in my mouth.

2) you explain to me about the place you live in, i'm sorry, that's your own fault of ignorance that makes you assume i don't know anything about where you live, but i have been to Budapest, and it was a beautifully budding culturally rich city... you wrote, "Demographically, most of the people (at least in Hungary) don't really know much about music", here you've done the same thing you accuse me of: generalizing. seriously?! 'don't really know much about music'?! the tradition of music between Hungary and Austria is ridiculously rich! so maybe they don't know about YOUR music, but can you blame them when you sound this stuck up? i saw for myself, that they know quite alot about music in Hungary, it just happens to be traditional(which is how it is everywhere with regular people, and it isn't their fault, people like you and me who generalize and condescend them about their ignorance, end up making our own music ridiculously unappealing by this attitude). if they aren't aware of more modern music, who's fault is that? it isn't theirs at all. It's YOURS, for not figuring out the right way to lead people despite their filtered eyes to a more holistic view of the light. sure it may seem impossible, but that is still YOUR responsibility to make them see(as the one who has access to more sight), it's not their responsibility to notice how blind they are(you might as well spank children merely for being children). sorry to go off, but it was just such a generalization, for something which was trying to pose as though it could convince 'me' to be more careful about 'my' words :p

BTW, i visited the Franz Liszt Academy of Music. Such a beautiful place with so many talented people! WHO WERE YOU TRYING TO BULLSHIT?! (

sorry, but when artists prove to be THIS quick to judge each other without first really getting to know what's being said, it is actually satisfying to watch everyone struggle. we all deserve to remain unheard and misunderstood. :)

@Siska
"I would really be careful with statements about how people should think"

likewise, i would be really careful, if i were you, to jump to quick conclusions about what people say. The expression, "people have to do [so-and-so] in order to survive" does not imply anything about telling them what to think, it means literally: they, themselves, of their OWN volition, think this way, because their survival (or sanity, as i mentioned before) depends on it. I think maybe it is you, who jumped to a really ignorant conclusion.
also, if you don't know me, you have no idea that i equate 'western civilization' with 'capitalistic societies'(nor do i need to explain that... until someone actually shows interest enough by asking me to clarify... then i can tell those who would snap to quick judgments apart from those who wouldn't... it's my own survival reflex). it's clear to people from the 3rd world, which current 1st world countries had oppressed them with colonialism prior to that(and many of those places are still recovering), plus which places were exploited by more current corporate practices of those same advantaged areas of the world. and it is just as clear to see that those same 1st world countries are struggling because that same attitude of trying to get something overnight with a minimum of effort on their part, is finally failing them. this recession is definitely what we deserve. until these facts are considered more carefully, even made reparations for, neither I, nor anyone else, need be sensitive about referring to it as '1st World', 'Western Civilization' or 'White Trash'....it's ALL the same to me. nor, for that matter, do i need to pay my condolences or feel bad at all when terrorism runs rampant: insensitivity breeds insensitivity, but it also does help to show the ugliness to those who wish they could hide from it in technological and capitalistic privilege.
on a sidenote: i am also not for peace(in case i sound like i was ever trying to reach anyone with my words about 'civilization'...i was not. civilization simply doesn't exist on this earth), i am absolutely for a continuum of violence and peace achieving dominance at different times in order to maintain an overall equilibrium(people do not deserve absolute peace, it makes them too happy-go-lucky and uncaring, not to mention forgetful of history).
all this is just to say: you probably shouldn't tell me to be careful about anything, if you don't expect me to come right back with the same to you and point out the hypocrisy of telling me what to think ;)

think of the utterly ridiculous blanket-statements you've made as well:
1) there was never any mention of the actual word 'philosophy' so it's as if you tried to place words in my mouth.
2) you explain to me about the place you live in, i'm sorry, that's your own fault of ignorance that makes you assume i don't know anything about where you live, but i have been to Budapest, and it was a beautifully budding culturally rich city... you wrote, "Demographically, most of the people (at least in Hungary) don't really know much about music", here you've done the same thing you accuse me of: generalizing. seriously?! 'don't really know much about music'?! the tradition of music between Hungary and Austria is ridiculously rich! so maybe they don't know about YOUR music, but can you blame them when you sound this stuck up? i saw for myself, that they know quite alot about music in Hungary, it just happens to be traditional(which is how it is everywhere with regular people, and it isn't their fault, people like you and me who generalize and condescend them about their ignorance, end up making our own music ridiculously unappealing by this attitude). if they aren't aware of more modern music, who's fault is that? it isn't theirs at all. It's YOURS, for not figuring out the right way to lead people despite their filtered eyes to a more holistic view of the light. sure it may seem impossible, but that is still YOUR responsibility to make them see(as the one who has access to more sight), it's not their responsibility to notice how blind they are(you might as well spank children merely for being children). sorry to go off, but it was just such a generalization, for something which was trying to pose as though it could convince 'me' to be more careful about 'my' words :p

sorry, but when artists prove to be THIS quick to judge each other without first really getting to know what's being said, it is actually satisfying to watch everyone struggle. we all deserve to remain unheard and misunderstood. :) 

(or perhaps just be patient and withhold from judgment while Raja defragments his own mid-life crisis :)

me want also super-admin priviledges to change my name.

^haha, i don't have any special privileges. Click on your name to get to your account page, then there is an 'edit this information' link to allow you to change your displayed name(you still have to log in with your original name).

ALLIED FORCES, YOU HAVE LOST! AND YOUR WIVES HAVE FOUND NEW HUSBANDS BEFORE YOUR RETURN! MUAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

At the risk of sounding flippant, make your own market. Every programming language starts somewhere.

PureData is siblings with Max and was used for the sound and music in Spore. Not to mention other people making money with PD, such as the rjdj team.

Other people have mentioned that it is difficult to make non-UI background process with Max which limits its ability to be used as sound engines for games etc. However a handful of people have released Max apps to the Mac App Store. And of course it is used for lighting and other professional purposes.

I find the idea that Max isn't a programming language is ridiculous. Yes, it is /also/ a "toolbox" but it is still a real, honest-to-god Turing Complete programming language /and/ some people approach it like that, even if many people don't. Not to mention, GenExpr, JS, Lua, rtMix, ChucK, Java (also JRuby and Jython), and C++ among others can be incorporated into your patches. Just because nearly anything can be done with visual patching doesn't mean that visual patching is the best way to solve all problems in Max.

dont spread that metemorphosis trick too much or everyone does it.

one of the things i always liked here is that we use mostly our

it gives the max forum game a nice touch of seriousity — and contrast

one of the things i always liked here is that we use mostly our
realnames to appear on stage.
it gives the max forum game a nice touch of seriousity — and contrast
is not to be underestimated.

It's interesting that you seem to think that inheritance is a prerequisite for a "real" OOL.

I beg to differ and I'll tell you why: a simple definition of OOL is "a programming language that uses objects; objects are software modules with 

." Inheritance is a development property that allows new object classes to leverage the behavior (and state model) of existing object classes. Many OOLs implement this, but it is definitely not a sine qua non. Although many OOLs support inheritance, there are several others, beside Max/Pd, that do not (for instance, Self). And, as much as it pains me to bring up Visual Basic, there are significant circles where it is considered a valued OOL, despite the lack of inheritance.

Oh, that Max objects implement behavior and state is, I think, a given.

No job market for MaxMSP?