OSC, vst~ & Reaktor

Feb 1, 2007 at 10:03am

OSC, vst~ & Reaktor

Hello,

i remember this has been discussed a long time ago, but i can’t get a
hand on it. When using Reaktor5 in a vst~, it says something like
“reaktor has 1000 parameters”. But in my reaktor ensemble, the control
IDs are up to 1253, and Max refuses to send any data to parameters IDs
greater than 1000… First problem.

So i thought about OSC but it seems to be totally disabled in reaktor as
a plugin. No way to activate it. I made some OSC setup in Reaktor as
standalone, then relaunch the same ensemble as a plugin, everything has
disappeared… Could someone confirm or write about her/his own
experience with OSC and reaktor as a plugin in Max ?

Best regards

f.e

f.e chanfrault | aka | personal computer music
> >>>>>> http://www.personal-computer-music.com
> >>>>>> |sublime music for a desperate people|

#30133
Feb 4, 2007 at 9:48am

On Feb 1, 2007, at 2:03 AM, f.e wrote:
> i remember this has been discussed a long time ago, but i can’t get a
> hand on it. When using Reaktor5 in a vst~, it says something like
> “reaktor has 1000 parameters”. But in my reaktor ensemble, the control
> IDs are up to 1253, and Max refuses to send any data to parameters IDs
> greater than 1000… First problem.
>
> So i thought about OSC but it seems to be totally disabled in reaktor
> as a plugin. No way to activate it. I made some OSC setup in Reaktor
> as standalone, then relaunch the same ensemble as a plugin, everything
> has disappeared… Could someone confirm or write about her/his own
> experience with OSC and reaktor as a plugin in Max ?

Hello,

Yes, I’ve run into this issue also. The issue with Reaktor not
supporting OSC when being run as a plugin is not limited to when it is
running inside vst~. As lame as it might seem, it is true, Reaktor
doesn’t support OSC when using it as a plugin in any host. I’ve posted
a message on the NI forums about this but for the most part it seemed
like I was the only one that cared.

I can’t remember exactly what the 1000 parameters message is about, but
I don’t think it has to do with Max. This is a message I’ve seen when
running Reaktor as a stand alone many times. Typically I just hit ok
when I get this message and as far as I’ve noticed the ensemble still
seems to work fine.

Cheers,
Dave

#95647
Feb 4, 2007 at 11:16am

#95648
Feb 4, 2007 at 1:51pm

Try this: In reaktor select your instrument, then open the instrument
properties window, then click on the rightmost tab (upper right corner of
the instrument properties window), then click on the drop-down menu in the
lower right corner that says “IDs.” Select the option that says “sort and
compress IDs.” Now look at the number under “Max ID in use”, it may have
decreased if there were unused ID #’s between the used ID #’s (sort and
compress pushes all of the ID#’s together, so that there’s no unused ID #’s
in between the used ones).

Now double click on the box that says “Max ID,” and enter the number that
appears under “Max ID in use.” Now, you can send data to parameter IDs less
than the number under “Max ID in use,” and you know that all of your IDs #’s
are below the number under “Max ID in use,” so therefore you know that you
can send data to all of the parameter ID#’s that are in use in your project.
If you add more parameters to your ensemble in Reaktor later, you’ll have to
do this process again.

Lastly, if you want to change which instrument’s ID #s are assigned to which
knob/button/slider/whatever, select “instrument up” or “instrument down” in
the “IDs” dropdown menu. “Sort and Compress” automatically groups each
instrument’s ID #’s together, so you can’t change that, but you can change
which instrument is first, second, etc. in the numbering order.

I don’t know about OSC, but it may say in the PDF manual that comes with
Reaktor, and if not the Reaktor forum on the NI website is a good place to
ask, people are very helpful on there. The answer might already be posted
somewhere on there…

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/forum_us/forumdisplay.php?f=30

—– Original Message —–
From: “Dave Watson”
To:

;
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [maxmsp] OSC, vst~ & Reaktor

>
> On Feb 1, 2007, at 2:03 AM, f.e wrote:
>> i remember this has been discussed a long time ago, but i can’t get a
>> hand on it. When using Reaktor5 in a vst~, it says something like
>> “reaktor has 1000 parameters”. But in my reaktor ensemble, the control
>> IDs are up to 1253, and Max refuses to send any data to parameters IDs
>> greater than 1000… First problem.
>>
>> So i thought about OSC but it seems to be totally disabled in reaktor as
>> a plugin. No way to activate it. I made some OSC setup in Reaktor as
>> standalone, then relaunch the same ensemble as a plugin, everything has
>> disappeared… Could someone confirm or write about her/his own
>> experience with OSC and reaktor as a plugin in Max ?
>
> Hello,
>
> Yes, I’ve run into this issue also. The issue with Reaktor not supporting
> OSC when being run as a plugin is not limited to when it is running inside
> vst~. As lame as it might seem, it is true, Reaktor doesn’t support OSC
> when using it as a plugin in any host. I’ve posted a message on the NI
> forums about this but for the most part it seemed like I was the only one
> that cared.
>
> I can’t remember exactly what the 1000 parameters message is about, but I
> don’t think it has to do with Max. This is a message I’ve seen when
> running Reaktor as a stand alone many times. Typically I just hit ok when
> I get this message and as far as I’ve noticed the ensemble still seems to
> work fine.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>

#95649
Feb 4, 2007 at 2:00pm

#95650
Feb 6, 2007 at 2:55am

I know this may sound silly, but if you’re going to control Reaktor via OSC, why do you need to use it in plugin form?

#95651
Feb 6, 2007 at 7:57am

#95652
Feb 6, 2007 at 12:24pm

>If you know a way to open 2 (& more) standalone applications using
>the fucking same audio driver *without* Rewire or this crappy shit
>we have on xp called Virtual audio cable, let’s have a drink, mate.
>
>
>>I know this may sound silly, but if you’re going to control Reaktor
>>via OSC, why do you need to use it in plugin form?

you might have your reasons (is it called “win” ??) but teh quastion
makes sense to me, even if i would say it a little differently:

“why don’t you use your Reaktor as a plug-in in max?” _ it works
pretty well, you don’t need OSC (or rewire or..) to control it from
max….

all the best

kasper

Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer

http://www.sleazeArt.com

http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart

#95653
Feb 6, 2007 at 12:45pm

#95654
Feb 6, 2007 at 1:24pm

>hello kasp,
>
>if you read the beginning of the thread, you’ll see that Reaktor
>assign control’s IDs on the fly, sometimes over 1000, which make
>them *unreachable* from Max when used in a vst~…
>
>Thanks to Eric, reducing the number of IDs does work.
>
>But the OSC support problem is still here and i’ll move to the NI
>forum about this

Yes

I am not a great expert at Reaktor, but, if you want use it as a vst
plug-in in max, i still belive you don’t need to use OSC, and you
don’t have to care about the ID’s it assigns:

simply open your Reaktor ensemble – the one you made and want to
control from inside max

_clik on the parameter you want to control (it’s ctrl-clik on a MAC,
probably some sort of right-click on win…)
_select the “midi learn” fonction (in reaktor)
_send a midi controller message from max (in the form of [midievent
xxx yy $1] – xxx being a Control Change number (between 176 -191) yy
being a controller number (0-127) and $1 being your controller value
- in “midi” that’s 0-127

if I am right that’s a total possibility of 2032 different controls

if that’s not enough, you can probably use the aftertouch (2032 more)
(208-223) or/and pitchbend (224-239) …….

this way you don’t give a s*** about what reaktor assigns

hope it helps

here at least it seems to work…

ah, for it to work you have to have the audio ON

best

kasper

#95655
Feb 6, 2007 at 1:31pm

not sure why you exspect reaktor VST to accept OSC … but
VST3 and appropiate VST3 host programs will allow to implement
this easily.

taking into account what the usual speed of NI updates is,
they should come up with this “soon”

-110

#95656
Feb 6, 2007 at 1:35pm

>
>
>if that’s not enough, you can probably use the aftertouch (2032
>more) (208-223) or/and pitchbend (224-239) …….
>

sorry, poly aftertouch is 160-175, see p.78, in “getting started”

kasper

Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer

http://www.sleazeArt.com

http://www.myspace.com/sleazeart

#95657
Feb 6, 2007 at 4:30pm

f.e wrote:
> If you know a way to open 2 (& more) standalone applications using the
> fucking same audio driver *without* Rewire or this crappy shit we have
> on xp called Virtual audio cable, let’s have a drink, mate.

I am for the drink,
you need to switch to Mac to get a working computer btw… ;-)))

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#95658
Feb 7, 2007 at 9:44pm

Quote: f.e wrote on Tue, 06 February 2007 08:57
—————————————————-
> If you know a way to open 2 (& more) standalone applications using the
> fucking same audio driver *without* Rewire or this crappy shit we have
> on xp called Virtual audio cable, let’s have a drink, mate.
>
> cheers
>
> f.e

There have been several threads on this forum about that subject.

check this:
http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&rid=3579&S=2c0e36c8293311ad00336b122e4d3c9b&th=22199&goto=82372#msg_82433

Afaik there are only two serious alternatives for rewire on mac: 1) soundflower with soundflowerbed or 2) soundflower with an aggregate device.
I currently have a problem with both approaches on OS 10.4.8:
1) soundflower with sondflowerbed: with soundflowerbed turned on the latency gets bigger over time, about 100 ms per hour. (yes, that means that I have to reset soundflowerbed’s buffer every 5 minutes during every live perfomance! cycling, somebody, please!!??)
2) soundflower with aggregate device: after some time the sound gets corrupted, sounds like a there is bitcrusher in the chain. Still not certain about any relation with specific events or actions.

If you’re going to try these approaches, please let me know what your findings are.

Cheers,
Mattijs

#95659
Feb 8, 2007 at 9:03am

#95660
Feb 8, 2007 at 9:55am

Quote: f.e wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 10:03
—————————————————-
> Mattijs, i already know these solutions; But they’re on Mac.
>
> f.e
>

Ah, I thought you knew virtual audio cable on pc and wanted something similar on mac. Sorry.

Although I work on pc a lot I didn’t look for virtual audio drivers in the recent past. Afraid I can’t help you there. I’m curious too though..

Mattijs

#95661
Feb 8, 2007 at 10:25am

#95662
Feb 8, 2007 at 12:43pm

Jack is now working on Windows thanks to Stephane Letz – not quite
plug and play, but it’s working. Look here:

http://www.grame.fr/~letz/jackdmp.html

Dan

At 10:03 AM +0100 2/8/07, f.e wrote:
>Mattijs, i already know these solutions; But they’re on Mac.
>
>f.e
>>>If you know a way to open 2 (& more) standalone applications using
>>>the fucking same audio driver *without* Rewire or this crappy shit
>>>we have on xp called Virtual audio cable, let’s have a drink, mate.
>>>
>>>cheers
>>>
>>>f.e
>>>
>>
>>There have been several threads on this forum about that subject.
>>check this:
>>http://www.cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&rid=3579&S=2c0e36c8293311ad00336b122e4d3c9b&th=22199&goto=82372#msg_82433
>>Afaik there are only two serious alternatives for rewire on mac: 1)
>>soundflower with soundflowerbed or 2) soundflower with an aggregate
>>device. I currently have a problem with both approaches on OS
>>10.4.8:
>>1) soundflower with sondflowerbed: with soundflowerbed turned on
>>the latency gets bigger over time, about 100 ms per hour. (yes,
>>that means that I have to reset soundflowerbed’s buffer every 5
>>minutes during every live perfomance! cycling, somebody, please!!??)
>>2) soundflower with aggregate device: after some time the sound
>>gets corrupted, sounds like a there is bitcrusher in the chain.
>>Still not certain about any relation with specific events or
>>actions.
>>
>>If you’re going to try these approaches, please let me know what
>>your findings are.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Mattijs


Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X / Major
Malfunction
http://www.defectiverecords.com

http://www.jackosx.com

#95663
Feb 8, 2007 at 12:46pm

Mattijs Kneppers wrote:
> There have been several threads on this forum about that subject.
>
> check this:

Hey, this poor guy is on windows…


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#95664
Feb 8, 2007 at 5:49pm

#95665
Feb 8, 2007 at 8:43pm

f.e., does your audio interface offer internal loopback? that’s how i
do (flawless but somewhat limited) trans-app streaming…

#95666
Feb 9, 2007 at 6:51am

Can we please not have any Mac elitism? I can’t stand people imposing their will onto other people. I could come up with reasons why macs are crap but what’s the point? I’m mature enough to know it’s all about preference and we’re here to talk about Max, not Macs.

This is like the 3rd of 4th time you, Stefan, have taken a post and turned it into a “buy a Mac” ad. Cut it out, please.

Thank you.

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Tue, 06 February 2007 08:30
—————————————————-
>
> I am for the drink,
> you need to switch to Mac to get a working computer btw… ;-)))
>
> Stefan
>
> —
> Stefan Tiedje————x——-
> –_____———–|————–
> –(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
> — _|_)—-|—–()————–
> ———-()——–www.ccmix.com
>
>
—————————————————-

#95667
Feb 9, 2007 at 7:00am

I probably should have sent above in a private message. Oh well. Forgive me Jesus.

#95668
Feb 9, 2007 at 9:03am

#95669
Feb 9, 2007 at 9:07am

Quote: dlurk wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 21:43
—————————————————-
>
> f.e., does your audio interface offer internal loopback? that’s how i
> do (flawless but somewhat limited) trans-app streaming…
>
>
>
—————————————————-

Which audio interface do you have?

#95670
Feb 9, 2007 at 9:09am
#95671
Feb 9, 2007 at 9:46am

f.e.,

don’t miss the post I did about RME cards, they may be the solution you’re looking for.

#95672
Feb 9, 2007 at 12:23pm

Mattijs Kneppers wrote:
> Quote: dlurk wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 21:43
> —————————————————-
>> f.e., does your audio interface offer internal loopback? that’s how i
>> do (flawless but somewhat limited) trans-app streaming…
>
> Which audio interface do you have?

RME Multiface – but it sounds like f.e. is well acquainted and prefers
not to pick up another PCI interface. I had a vague memory he might
also use RME, but I wasn’t sure. And I don’t know how common that
feature is.

#95673
Feb 9, 2007 at 1:41pm

Quote: dlurk wrote on Fri, 09 February 2007 13:23
—————————————————-
> Mattijs Kneppers wrote:
> > Quote: dlurk wrote on Thu, 08 February 2007 21:43
> > —————————————————-
> >> f.e., does your audio interface offer internal loopback? that’s how i
> >> do (flawless but somewhat limited) trans-app streaming…
> >
> > Which audio interface do you have?
>
> RME Multiface – but it sounds like f.e. is well acquainted and prefers
> not to pick up another PCI interface. I had a vague memory he might
> also use RME, but I wasn’t sure. And I don’t know how common that
> feature is.

Hm, that’s interesting, thanks for the info. Perhaps we’ll have to migrate. Although it’s completely ridiculous that there is -no- virtual audio driver available that works properly! (Even on mac ;)

Cheers,
Mattijs

>
>
—————————————————-

#95674
Feb 9, 2007 at 2:43pm

JACK or Soundflower don’t work on mac??

#95675
Feb 9, 2007 at 5:17pm

Quote: _jamez_ wrote on Fri, 09 February 2007 15:43
—————————————————-
> JACK or Soundflower don’t work on mac??
—————————————————-

Soundflower (with soundflowerbed) has the latency problem I described above.

I didn’t know about JACK though, thanks for the tip! I just spent 2 hours trying to make it work, but as soon as I connect one virtual output of max to my FW410 in the Connections Manager, I get a noise that sounds most like feedback, not like the sine I’m playing in max.. It looks like a bug in Jack. I’ll put some more time in looking for a workaround, but my initial enthusiasm has already tempered.

Best,
Mattijs

#95676
Feb 9, 2007 at 5:28pm

At 6:17 PM +0100 2/9/07, Mattijs Kneppers wrote:
>Quote: _jamez_ wrote on Fri, 09 February 2007 15:43
>—————————————————-
>> JACK or Soundflower don’t work on mac??
>—————————————————-
>
>Soundflower (with soundflowerbed) has the latency problem I described above.
>
>I didn’t know about JACK though, thanks for the tip! I just spent 2
>hours trying to make it work, but as soon as I connect one virtual
>output of max to my FW410 in the Connections Manager, I get a noise
>that sounds most like feedback, not like the sine I’m playing in
>max.. It looks like a bug in Jack. I’ll put some more time in
>looking for a workaround, but my initial enthusiasm has already
>tempered.

Make sure you don’t have a feedback loop set up in the Jack
connections manager. That window takes a while to get used to…

Also be sure that your buffer sizes are the same in Max/MSP, and what
you selected in Jack’s prefs…

Dan

Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X / Major
Malfunction
http://www.defectiverecords.com

http://www.jackosx.com

#95677
Feb 9, 2007 at 6:43pm

#95678
Feb 9, 2007 at 6:49pm

James wrote:
> I probably should have sent above in a private message. Oh well.
> Forgive me Jesus.

Even I forgive…
I actually don’t want to advertise Macs, there are some issues though
which make it hard to resist, I apologize and ask to forgive me…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#95679
Feb 10, 2007 at 10:30am

Mattijs Kneppers wrote:
> I didn’t know about JACK though, thanks for the tip! I just spent 2
> hours trying to make it work, but as soon as I connect one virtual
> output of max to my FW410 in the Connections Manager, I get a noise
> that sounds most like feedback, not like the sine I’m playing in
> max.. It looks like a bug in Jack. I’ll put some more time in looking
> for a workaround, but my initial enthusiasm has already tempered.

You could determine the latency of Jack with a pitch detection ;-)
I am sure its a simple feedback, I had no technical problems with Jack,
but it took a while to get my head around it…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#95680

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