Drsbaitso

The topic title explains what I want to say as a whole. I feel lost right now and don't have anyone to rant to. I've been working with max for about 3 years now. In the past year its been almost an all day max fiasco trying to get a real composition environment that embraces quite a lot of different mediums and philosophies together. The problem is, well its still in shambles and that's not because its unsolveable. No, the problem is its just a lot of work, and a lot of redundant grunt programming, and miscalculations here and there, and it goes on forever and ever.

I guess my question to the list is, how do you stay sane with Max and large projects? I used to play the piano a lot, and combose just what seems like basic stuff in Cubase way back when... Now it seems theres no time, the goal is to finish my Max patch so I can compose in a way that I feel is correct for me, yet, the price or cost of such a goal seems to mount higher and higher as "music" gets further away from me. I love Max to death but its defintely complicated my life and musical outlook to such a degree that I don't feel I can cope with being able to support myself, work on my max stuff [which is really an endless list of things and improvements] and study general musicianship/classical composition all at the same time. I wish there was a solution, but with my main max patch still in pieces and essential parts yet to be built plus hardware yet unbought, I feel a victim of my own title to this topic... Is it always going to be Max today, music tomorrow, which leads to what? I thought Max was meant to liberate me, instead its put me in a world of cables and endless possibilities that seems to just stress me out and make it impossible to do what I set out to do, which is enjoy music.

The topic title explains what I want to say as a whole.  I feel lost right now and don't have anyone to rant to.  I've been working with max for about 3 years now.  In the past year its been almost an all day max fiasco trying to get a real composition environment that embraces quite a lot of different mediums and philosophies together.   The problem is, well its still in shambles and that's not because its unsolveable. No, the problem is its just a lot of work, and a lot of redundant grunt programming, and miscalculations here and there, and it goes on forever and ever.

I guess my question to the list is, how do you stay sane with Max and large projects? I used to play the piano a lot, and combose just what seems like basic stuff in Cubase way back when... Now it seems theres no time, the goal is to finish my Max patch so I can compose in a way that I feel is correct for me, yet, the price or cost of such a goal seems to mount higher and higher as "music" gets further away from me.  I love Max to death but its defintely complicated my life and musical outlook to such a degree that I don't feel I can cope with being able to support myself, work on my max stuff [which is really an endless list of things and improvements] and study general musicianship/classical composition all at the same time.  I wish there was a solution, but with my main max patch still in pieces and essential parts yet to be built plus hardware yet unbought, I feel a victim of my own title to this topic... Is it always going to be Max today, music tomorrow, which leads to what?  I thought Max was meant to liberate me, instead its put me in a world of cables and endless possibilities that seems to just stress me out and make it impossible to do what I set out to do, which is enjoy music. 

ot-max-today-music-tomorrow

Define your problem more narrowly. That is, find a way for Max to help with one small aspect of your piece. Then next time find a way for it to help with another. Over time you may build the uber-compositional system you're dreaming of. But by then, your idea of the ideal system will probably be different than it is now.

My favorite part of Max, like other programming environments, is it's ability to encapsulate. You begin patching together other people's objects and abstractions--using other people's work and words and ideas. But then as you aggregate them into your own objects and abstractions you find yourself using your own work and words and ideas more regularly. Start small and grow...

I can definitely see a bit of myself in your predicament, binez0r. Like Holland said, I think the problem is that your project started with a very wide and conceptual approach - this is where problems tend to arise, since there is no elegant way of going from concept->patch; every encapsulation you do will be a compromise of the original idea.

I too build many small problem-solvers, which are already starting to take the shape of a useful performance system. I also have a few standalones compiled along the way, which I can always dig out and use on their own.

The good thing for me, I guess, is that I don't rely fully on Max for my music (yet), so I can always turn to my other system for when the actual music needs to get done.

> I guess my question to the list is, how do you stay sane with Max 

Is the environment you're building modular? Could you then create 

with the elements that you have working? I think there's a tendency 

to want to have a project complete and perfect before you are willing 

to do anything with it. I know of one person on this list who was 

told by her professor to get out and start performing as she was 

putting that off until she had everything just right. She took his 

advice and has done really interesting work.

I also think that no large patch is ever finished - I spent years 

building something that was a general purpose environment for live 

looping and granulating (and it's been through 3 major, ground-up 

rebuilds), and was using it a month or so after I started, warts n 

all. Of course, you also change in the meantime - I doubt I'll ever 

actually use that behemoth again - I've moved to the idea of simpler, 

specific processes that I can throw together to make a specific 

What am I trying to say? I guess it's that, if there's any way you 

can use elements of what you already have to do creative work, 

however simple, then go ahead and do it - go ahead and _make_ 

yourself do it. It'll remind you of why you're spending so much time 

on the "bigger picture" environment (I don't mean remind you 

intellectually; I mean in the sense of walking outside and seeing the 

sky and remembering that you're simply alive, or something).

>
> I guess my question to the list is, how do you stay sane with Max  
> and large projects?

Is the environment you're building modular? Could you then create  
with the elements that you have working? I think there's a tendency  
to want to have a project complete and perfect before you are willing  
to do anything with it. I know of one person on this list who was  
told by her professor to get out and start performing as she was  
putting that off until she had everything just right. She took his  
advice and has done really interesting work.

I also think that no large patch is ever finished - I spent years  
building something that was a general purpose environment for live  
looping and granulating (and it's been through 3 major, ground-up  
rebuilds), and was using it a month or so after I started, warts n  
all.  Of course, you also change in the meantime - I doubt I'll ever  
actually use that behemoth again - I've moved to the idea of simpler,  
specific processes that I can throw together to make a specific  
performance environment.

What am I trying to say? I guess it's that, if there's any way you  
can use elements of what you already have to do creative work,  
however simple, then go ahead and do it - go ahead and _make_  
yourself do it. It'll remind you of why you're spending so much time  
on the "bigger picture" environment (I don't mean remind you  
intellectually; I mean in the sense of walking outside and seeing the  
sky and remembering that you're simply alive, or something).

as they say in Marocco : " un homme presse est un homme deja mort "

( a man in a hurry is already a dead man ..." )

i understand your frustrations , i have them to once in a while . 

but i think we just need to relax , keep on pushing the things you want to achieve , but there is only so much one can do in one day .

i guess it is probably not a satisfying answer , and i did not come up with a patch for it but that is how i try to live my life now , with all the stuff i want to do ( become a taichi master , a herbalist, an installation artist, a political activist, a journalist, a musician , a wise man , a cat , a shapeshifter ,etc...o and still doing some Max once in a while...)

as they say in Marocco : " un homme presse est un homme deja mort "
( a man in a hurry is already a dead man ..." )

i understand your frustrations , i have them to once in a while . 
but i think we just need to relax , keep on pushing the things you want to achieve , but there is only so much one can do in one day .

i guess it is probably not a satisfying answer , and i did not come up with a patch for it but that is how i try to live my life now , with all the stuff i want to do  ( become a taichi master , a herbalist, an installation artist, a political activist, a journalist, a musician , a wise man , a cat , a shapeshifter ,etc...o and still doing some Max once in a while...)

Your first mistake is assuming any of us are sane.

But, onward and upward. I think one key is modularity, which has been 

More importantly, you have to change your design philsophy. Start with 

something small, that plays some music. Then add features on to this 

core. In this way you will always have something that plays, and you 

The metric for development is that it takes 5 man/years to develop a 

large piece of software. Keep this in mind. Large system development 

> The topic title explains what I want to say as a whole. I feel lost right now and don't have anyone to rant to. I've been working with max for about 3 years now. In the past year its been almost an all day max fiasco trying to get a real composition environment that embraces quite a lot of different mediums and philosophies together. The problem is, well its still in shambles and that's not because its unsolveable. No, the problem is its just a lot of work, and a lot of redundant grunt programming, and miscalculations here and there, and it goes on forever and ever.

> I guess my question to the list is, how do you stay sane with Max and large projects? I used to play the piano a lot, and combose just what seems like basic stuff in Cubase way back when... Now it seems theres no time, the goal is to finish my Max patch so I can compose in a way that I feel is correct for me, yet, the price or cost of such a goal seems to mount higher and higher as "music" gets further away from me. I love Max to death but its defintely complicated my life and musical outlook to such a degree that I don't feel I can cope with being able to support myself, work on my max stuff [which is really an endless list of things and improvements] and study general musicianship/classical composition all at the same time. I wish there was a solution, but with my main max patch still in pieces and essential parts yet to be built plus hardware yet unbought, I feel a victim of my own title to this topic... Is it always going to be Max today, music tomorrow, which leads t

> what? I thought Max was meant to liberate me, instead its put me in a world of cables and endless possibilities that seems to just stress me out and make it impossible to do what I set out to do, which is enjoy music. 

barry threw :: sound | (if you would see the stars clearly,

 | look hard at the surrounding darkness)

But, onward and upward.  I think one key is modularity, which has been 
mentioned.

More importantly, you have to change your design philsophy.  Start with 
something small, that plays some music.  Then add features on to this 
core.  In this way you will always have something that plays, and you 
can enrich it at your leisure.

The metric for development is that it takes 5 man/years to develop a 
large piece of software.  Keep this in mind.  Large system development 
is not easy, fast, or cheap.

binez0r wrote:
> The topic title explains what I want to say as a whole.  I feel lost right now and don't have anyone to rant to.  I've been working with max for about 3 years now.  In the past year its been almost an all day max fiasco trying to get a real composition environment that embraces quite a lot of different mediums and philosophies together.   The problem is, well its still in shambles and that's not because its unsolveable. No, the problem is its just a lot of work, and a lot of redundant grunt programming, and miscalculations here and there, and it goes on forever and ever.
>
> I guess my question to the list is, how do you stay sane with Max and large projects? I used to play the piano a lot, and combose just what seems like basic stuff in Cubase way back when... Now it seems theres no time, the goal is to finish my Max patch so I can compose in a way that I feel is correct for me, yet, the price or cost of such a goal seems to mount higher and higher as "music" gets further away from me.  I love Max to death but its defintely complicated my life and musical outlook to such a degree that I don't feel I can cope with being able to support myself, work on my max stuff [which is really an endless list of things and improvements] and study general musicianship/classical composition all at the same time.  I wish there was a solution, but with my main max patch still in pieces and essential parts yet to be built plus hardware yet unbought, I feel a victim of my own title to this topic... Is it always going to be Max today, music tomorrow, which leads t
o!
>   what?  I thought Max was meant to liberate me, instead its put me in a world of cables and endless possibilities that seems to just stress me out and make it impossible to do what I set out to do, which is enjoy music. 
>
> Any advice would be appreciated,
>
> binez0r
>

-- 
barry threw :: sound      |   (if you would see the stars clearly,
http://www.barrythrew.com |   look hard at the surrounding darkness)
bthrew(at)gmail(dot)com   |                       -Ooka Makoto
857-544-3967              |


Well, certainly in an insane world, only the sane seem insane to an insane person living in a sane world. Max certainly seems sane to me compared to a program like Cubase which seems insane, yet someone whos adament about using Cubase all day long would certainly look at building custom software as being insane with all of Cubase's "features"... and so it loops into itself.

Plus, I know quite a few artists who would take being called insane as a compliment. I'm personally refering to "monkey mind". I am after mental peace [piece, peach?]... AND max. So my new question is...

does anyone find mental peace working within Max?

Well, certainly in an insane world, only the sane seem insane to an insane person living in a sane world.   Max certainly seems sane to me compared to a program like Cubase which seems insane, yet someone whos adament about using Cubase all day long would certainly look at building custom software as being insane with all of Cubase's "features"... and so it loops into itself.

Plus, I know quite a few artists who would take being called insane as a compliment.  I'm personally refering to "monkey mind".  I am after mental peace [piece, peach?]... AND max.  So my new question is... 

does anyone find mental peace working within Max?


> does anyone find mental peace working within Max?

Yup. For what I have been doing lately, its easier for me (mentally) to

build stuff from rudiments in Max than to learn to (mis/ab)use a finished

Trying to compose/produce/perform with other programs just stresses me

Yup. For what I have been doing lately, its easier for me (mentally) to
build stuff from rudiments in Max than to learn to (mis/ab)use a finished
product made by someone else.

Trying to compose/produce/perform with other programs just stresses me
out...

I believe that the issues you are raising, are some of what we aim at 

addressing with the development of Jamoma. Lev Manovich in the book 

"Language of new media" define some fundamental principles of new media:

I have found these principles meaningful to consider when thinking about 

how I am working in Max. If I manage to make my patches being modular, 

they are easier to design, easier to test in a limited setting as I go 

along, easier to reuse, etc. Similarly, the more I am able to automate 

modules, the more flexible they become. All parameters of the module 

tend to stay available for longer, giving a richer expressive potential 

for the module, and i can start developing control modules for the 

purpose of modulating parameters of other modules. This can lead to a 

hierarchy of parameter levels, so that fundamental parameters can be 

bundled and operated at higher and more abstract levels.

One of the most important features of Jamoma in my mind is the framework 

for how to design modules in a stringent way that ensures easy 

communication between them using OpenSoundControl, and with a number of 

common features implemented in the modules by default (e.g. muting, 

bypassing, dry/wet mix, gain control for audio effects patches). I 

hardly ever use any of the provided modules for my own work (except for 

spatialisation modules added lately), but the structure itself I use all 

Jamoma is maintained using subversion at sourceforge.net. As we are 

several developers collaborating on Jamoma, this is a big benefit, and 

it also means that we are able to dig up older versions of modules and 

patches if required. If I only had the time to figure out how to set up 

a subversion system for my own patches, I would definitively do the same 

At the moment we are four developers actively submitting code to the 

project, and I expect this to increase in the coming months. One of the 

benefits of this kind of collaboration is that the design is more 

thoroughly conceived, implementation more efficient, and the solutions 

of more general use than if one person should develop this alone. And of 

course development moves a lot faster. As we all use it for different 

purposes and in different ways, I believe that we manage to avoid 

idiosyncratic solutions, so that the architecture can be of more general 

I would recommend trying to download from the repository instead of the 

installer, as quite a bit has happened since the 0.3.1 installer was 

uploaded. If you take a look at the Jamoma blog, you will also find 

links to several similar environments for Max developed elsewhere.

> I guess my question to the list is, how do you stay sane with Max and large projects? I used to play the piano a lot, and combose just what seems like basic stuff in Cubase way back when... Now it seems theres no time, the goal is to finish my Max patch so I can compose in a way that I feel is correct for me, yet, the price or cost of such a goal seems to mount higher and higher as "music" gets further away from me. I love Max to death but its defintely complicated my life and musical outlook to such a degree that I don't feel I can cope with being able to support myself, work on my max stuff [which is really an endless list of things and improvements] and study general musicianship/classical composition all at the same time. I wish there was a solution, but with my main max patch still in pieces and essential parts yet to be built plus hardware yet unbought, I feel a victim of my own title to this topic... Is it always going to be Max today, music tomorrow, which leads to!

I believe that the issues you are raising, are some of what we aim at 
addressing with the development of Jamoma. Lev Manovich in the book 
"Language of new media" define some fundamental principles of new media:

- numerical representation
- modularity
- automation
- variability
- transcoding

I have found these principles meaningful to consider when thinking about 
how I am working in Max. If I manage to make my patches being modular, 
they are easier to design, easier to test in a limited setting as I go 
along, easier to reuse, etc. Similarly, the more I am able to automate 
modules, the more flexible they become. All parameters of the module 
tend to stay available for longer, giving a richer expressive potential 
for the module, and i can start developing control modules for the 
purpose of modulating parameters of other modules. This can lead to a 
hierarchy of parameter levels, so that fundamental parameters can be 
bundled and operated at higher and more abstract levels.

One of the most important features of Jamoma in my mind is the framework 
for how to design modules in a stringent way that ensures easy 
communication between them using OpenSoundControl, and with a number of 
common features implemented in the modules by default (e.g. muting, 
bypassing, dry/wet mix, gain control for audio effects patches). I 
hardly ever use any of the provided modules for my own work (except for 
spatialisation modules added lately), but the structure itself I use all 
the time.

Jamoma is maintained using subversion at sourceforge.net. As we are 
several developers collaborating on Jamoma, this is a big benefit, and 
it also means that we are able to dig up older versions of modules and 
patches if required. If I only had the time to figure out how to set up 
a subversion system for my own patches, I would definitively do the same 
locally for everything I do in Max.

At the moment we are four developers actively submitting code to the 
project, and I expect this to increase in the coming months. One of the 
benefits of this kind of collaboration is that the design is more 
thoroughly conceived, implementation more efficient, and the solutions 
of more general use than if one person should develop this alone. And of 
course development moves a lot faster. As we all use it for different 
purposes and in different ways, I believe that we manage to avoid 
idiosyncratic solutions, so that the architecture can be of more general 
use.

I would recommend trying to download from the repository instead of the 
installer, as quite a bit has happened since the 0.3.1 installer was 
uploaded. If you take a look at the Jamoma blog, you will also find 
links to several similar environments for Max developed elsewhere.

binez0r wrote:
> The topic title explains what I want to say as a whole.  I feel lost right now and don't have anyone to rant to.  I've been working with max for about 3 years now.  In the past year its been almost an all day max fiasco trying to get a real composition environment that embraces quite a lot of different mediums and philosophies together.   The problem is, well its still in shambles and that's not because its unsolveable. No, the problem is its just a lot of work, and a lot of redundant grunt programming, and miscalculations here and there, and it goes on forever and ever.
>
> I guess my question to the list is, how do you stay sane with Max and large projects? I used to play the piano a lot, and combose just what seems like basic stuff in Cubase way back when... Now it seems theres no time, the goal is to finish my Max patch so I can compose in a way that I feel is correct for me, yet, the price or cost of such a goal seems to mount higher and higher as "music" gets further away from me.  I love Max to death but its defintely complicated my life and musical outlook to such a degree that I don't feel I can cope with being able to support myself, work on my max stuff [which is really an endless list of things and improvements] and study general musicianship/classical composition all at the same time.  I wish there was a solution, but with my main max patch still in pieces and essential parts yet to be built plus hardware yet unbought, I feel a victim of my own title to this topic... Is it always going to be Max today, music tomorrow, which leads to!
>   what?  I thought Max was meant to liberate me, instead its put me in a world of cables and endless possibilities that seems to just stress me out and make it impossible to do what I set out to do, which is enjoy music. 
>
> Any advice would be appreciated,
>
> binez0r


>>does anyone find mental peace working within Max?

> Yup. For what I have been doing lately, its easier for me (mentally) to

> build stuff from rudiments in Max than to learn to (mis/ab)use a finished

> Trying to compose/produce/perform with other programs just stresses me

Nothing to add here, though the definition of "mental peace" might be 

not quite clear. I do make "heavy mental music" and somtimes "holy metal 

music" (playing Tibetan bowls through my Max patches). The latter would 

fit better to peace and the former to piece...

I certainly would find peace if I could patch all day and somebody else 

would take care of all the other needs to survive on planet earth... ;-)

Langdon Crawford wrote:
>
>>does anyone find mental peace working within Max?
>
> Yup. For what I have been doing lately, its easier for me (mentally) to
> build stuff from rudiments in Max than to learn to (mis/ab)use a finished
> product made by someone else.
>
> Trying to compose/produce/perform with other programs just stresses me
> out...

Nothing to add here, though the definition of "mental peace" might be 
not quite clear. I do make "heavy mental music" and somtimes "holy metal 
music" (playing Tibetan bowls through my Max patches). The latter would 
fit better to peace and the former to piece...

I certainly would find peace if I could patch all day and somebody else 
would take care of all the other needs to survive on planet earth... ;-)

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


[ot] max today, music tomorrow