[OT] Which MIDI-Audio Sequencer/Editor do you use?

Jun 15, 2008 at 6:22pm

[OT] Which MIDI-Audio Sequencer/Editor do you use?

I assume everyone uses Max, but I was wondering which sequencer/recording environment people use with Max, and if any work better with Max than others.

I’ve been using protools, and dabbled in Performer and Logic. I feel most comfortable with Protools, but purely out of habit and what I know. But I got an interface lately for working with Max (MOTU 828mkII), and Protools LE will not work with that interface, nor even record at 96k, so instead of relying on my own guesstimation for what to use to record and edit, I ask you Max users, since I want something that will work well with Max and MIDI hardware and is geared towards music creation.

Thanks for your feedback!

#38421
Jun 15, 2008 at 7:50pm

I use Logic with Max and an 828mkII. I really like Logic’s midi tools such as the transform functions, and the Environment allows me to route midi data from Max in a very flexible manor. Its kind of a stripped down version of Max built right in.

However, I don’t like Logic’s audio editing. There are too many windows that one has to go through to do the most basic things. I often will go to Pro Tools for any serious audio editing. The other downside is that there is more of a learning curve than Pro Tools. Apple has worked to make it easier to use in Logic 8, but its still best to read the (very thick) manual.

That being said, I really do love Logic. Another plus is that it comes with a good collection of soft-synths, and other plugins.

#134021
Jun 16, 2008 at 2:43am

I watched some tutorial videos on you tube. That environment window seems pretty powerful. I was wondering how you work with midi in logic.

#134022
Jun 16, 2008 at 6:11am

I believe I meant ‘manner’. oy!

Also, Don- was that last line intended as a question or a statement? I’d be happy to answer any other logic related questions you have.

#134023
Jun 16, 2008 at 7:22am

Hi Don,

I am a big fan of Ableton Live, and for my needs, which are mainly rapid
music authoring and sound design, it works so bloody well.

For live performance I also hook up midi controllers through max, and
suddenly Live can become a remarkably modular beast.
Over the years I have worked with Logic, ProTools, Cubase and a few
others. Nothing comes close, and even though I am still considering
building a do-it-all system in maxMSP/Jitter Ableton Live (7) is still
my main squeeze.

Andreas.

Don K skrev:
> I assume everyone uses Max, but I was wondering which sequencer/recording environment people use with Max, and if any work better with Max than others.
>

#134024
Jun 16, 2008 at 12:44pm

I use protools….

…because… I have no clue

#134025
Jun 16, 2008 at 2:55pm

I use Sonar and Max.

#134026
Jun 16, 2008 at 6:39pm

i use samplitude on pc and i am leaning towards logic on the mac but
am currently using audacity. I use ableton on both computers. I have
a friend who does sound design work and he uses digital performer

i use a motu 896, m-audio firewire 410 and whatever else i can get my
hands on for hardware.

i don’t like the propriatariness of protools although it is great for recording.

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Anthony Palomba wrote:
>
> I use Sonar and Max.
>

#134027
Jun 16, 2008 at 8:34pm

Quote: Nick Inhofe wrote on Sun, 15 June 2008 23:11
—————————————————-
> I believe I meant ‘manner’. oy!
>
> Also, Don- was that last line intended as a question or a statement? I’d be happy to answer any other logic related questions you have.
—————————————————-

A statement. Logic’s midi capabilities seems pretty powerful for a “editing” program. The tutorials I watched on Logic, especially the Environment window, is making me rethink it. The routing for MIDI seems really nice in comparison to protools, as you said, a mini-Max.

#134028
Jun 16, 2008 at 8:37pm

Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 00:22
—————————————————-
> Hi Don,
>
> I am a big fan of Ableton Live, and for my needs, which are mainly rapid
> music authoring and sound design, it works so bloody well.
>
> For live performance I also hook up midi controllers through max, and
> suddenly Live can become a remarkably modular beast.
> Over the years I have worked with Logic, ProTools, Cubase and a few
> others. Nothing comes close, and even though I am still considering
> building a do-it-all system in maxMSP/Jitter Ableton Live (7) is still
> my main squeeze.

How are the sound editing capabilities of Live? I always thought of it as an awesome loop based composition tool, but a little awkwards for editing.

#134029
Jun 16, 2008 at 8:45pm

Quote: dodgeroo wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 11:39
—————————————————-
> i use samplitude on pc and i am leaning towards logic on the mac but
> am currently using audacity. I use ableton on both computers. I have
> a friend who does sound design work and he uses digital performer
>
> i use a motu 896, m-audio firewire 410 and whatever else i can get my
> hands on for hardware.
>
> i don’t like the propriatariness of protools although it is great for recording.
>

That’s the part of protools I dislike most, but it is easy to use.

I think I’m seeing a pattern of people using ableton/Max in conjunction with logic/performer/cubase/etc.

I’m starting to learn towards Logic after seeing some tutorials, I’ll have to look for some performer video tutorials. I’m also having trouble deciding Logic vs. Performer for editing since I have friends on both sides of the camps. Logic user friend who scores films, Performer friend who makes music for music sake, and another friend who uses Cubase for scoring and composing for stage and TV. I wish I could sit them all at once around a table and hammer them with questions.

Any personal experiences good or bad with Max and Logic or Performer or Cubase?

#134030
Jun 16, 2008 at 8:45pm

Logic Pro 8 is amazing bang for the buck, and quite powerful. MIDI
handling and manipulation is second to none, audio editing OK, the
softsynths and loops are great.
I use it together with Max all the time.

Op 16-jun-2008, om 8:11 heeft Nick Inhofe het volgende geschreven:

>
> I believe I meant ‘manner’. oy!
>
> Also, Don- was that last line intended as a question or a
> statement? I’d be happy to answer any other logic related questions
> you have.

#134031
Jun 16, 2008 at 9:04pm

Ditto this. When Apple put Logic 8 together into Logic Studio and dropped the price, it became an incredible value.

For overall music production, it can’t be beat. You can edit sound files in it or in Soundtrack Pro, which is part of the bundle, along with a bunch of other powerful tools. It’s extremely powerful and relatively simple to learn, given that it gives extraordinary control over an amazing array of details. And yeah, the synthesizers are impressive. And the price is ultra-competitive.

On Monday, June 16, 2008, at 04:58PM, “Zip Boterbloem” wrote:
>Logic Pro 8 is amazing bang for the buck, and quite powerful. MIDI
>handling and manipulation is second to none, audio editing OK, the
>softsynths and loops are great.
>I use it together with Max all the time.
>
>
>Op 16-jun-2008, om 8:11 heeft Nick Inhofe het volgende geschreven:
>
>>
>> I believe I meant ‘manner’. oy!
>>
>> Also, Don- was that last line intended as a question or a
>> statement? I’d be happy to answer any other logic related questions
>> you have.
>
>
>

#134032
Jun 16, 2008 at 9:10pm

Don K skrev:
> Quote: Wetterberg wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 00:22
> —————————————————-
>
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> I am a big fan of Ableton Live, and for my needs, which are mainly rapid
>> music authoring and sound design, it works so bloody well.
>>
>> For live performance I also hook up midi controllers through max, and
>> suddenly Live can become a remarkably modular beast.
>> Over the years I have worked with Logic, ProTools, Cubase and a few
>> others. Nothing comes close, and even though I am still considering
>> building a do-it-all system in maxMSP/Jitter Ableton Live (7) is still
>> my main squeeze.
>>
> How are the sound editing capabilities of Live? I always thought of it as an awesome loop based composition tool, but a little awkwards for editing.
>
>
I haven’t seen an edit I couldn’t do in Live. Sure, that notorious
in-track crossfade isn’t in there, but that isn’t a problem for me. I do
all my so-called “mastering” in Live, I have done sound-to-film, dj
sets, full track productions, loop mangling. You name it.

Andreas.

#134033
Jun 16, 2008 at 10:38pm

Another Logic user here. I have Logic Studio which comes with all the orchestral/world instruments samples and some really great synthesizers. And lots of really sweet FX too. Plenty of tools to make a huge variety of sounds, which is nice if you aren’t an MSP guru who can whip up a patch for any kind of synthesis algorithm in a few minutes.

However everyone has only been saying good things about Logic. I *do* think it is a great choice, but it also makes me want to rip my hair out and scream sometimes. It has some bugs and lacking features that get in my way (although it’s possible I still need to learn it better). For me the main headaches are:

1. MIDI learn/controller assignments. This can only be a global setting. I have different controller assignments for different projects, which seems like a pretty basic requirement, but Logic does not support this at all. I had to write a script to backup my controller assignment files with the current project, and remember to manually restore them when switching projects. Even with that, if I plug in a new piece of MIDI hardware it may shift all my controller assignments up or down one device, completely ruining the settings and then they have to be redone all over again. It sucks, big time.

2. I keep having these “system overload” messages that stop playback or recording. Then I click play again and it’s fine. I didn’t have this problem at first, but then a Logic/Leopard update really seems to have screwed up my system. Tried tweaking my preferences but never got this completely resolved. It’s just an annoyance, really, but this kind of problem shouldn’t even exist IMO (I’d rather have a gap in the sound then completely stopping playback with an error). To prevent this, you can re-enable a track for record but then I run into problem #3…

3. All tracks need to be enabled to record for multitrack recording, which I do a lot. Sometimes while clicking around, a single track gets selected and the rest disabled. What follows is a wild goose chase where I click record on track 2 and 3, and then track 1 gets disabled, so I click record on track 1 but then 2 gets disabled, etc … it’s ridiculous. Sometimes I sit there for a few minutes trying to get all the tracks back in record state. AFAIK there is no “enable all for record” button.

4. I haven’t had much luck getting rewire to work properly. Some people have workarounds using the Environment (which is barely documented and not intuitive), but I gave up on using it. The Environment might fix my problem #1, but I heard it’s really tedious.

That said, no software is perfect. Logic gets the job done. Its MIDI editing and automation support is really good. I would also like to get Live one day, but I will probably stick with Logic as my primary DAW. Just expect some frustration if you plan on using a lot of custom controller assignments or when doing multitrack MIDI recording.

Sorry for the rant. Hopefully it helps make an informed decision.

#134034
Jun 16, 2008 at 11:22pm

Quote: Adam Murray wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 15:38
—————————————————-
> 1. MIDI learn/controller assignments. This can only be a global setting. I have different controller assignments for different projects, which seems like a pretty basic requirement, but Logic does not support this at all. I had to write a script to backup my controller assignment files with the current project, and remember to manually restore them when switching projects. Even with that, if I plug in a new piece of MIDI hardware it may shift all my controller assignments up or down one device, completely ruining the settings and then they have to be redone all over again. It sucks, big time.

That sucks, I’m constantly rearranging my equipment, that could mess me up…

> 2. I keep having these “system overload” messages that stop playback or recording. Then I click play again and it’s fine. I didn’t have this problem at first, but then a Logic/Leopard update really seems to have screwed up my system. Tried tweaking my preferences but never got this completely resolved. It’s just an annoyance, really, but this kind of problem shouldn’t even exist IMO (I’d rather have a gap in the sound then completely stopping playback with an error). To prevent this, you can re-enable a track for record but then I run into problem #3…
>
> 3. All tracks need to be enabled to record for multitrack recording, which I do a lot. Sometimes while clicking around, a single track gets selected and the rest disabled. What follows is a wild goose chase where I click record on track 2 and 3, and then track 1 gets disabled, so I click record on track 1 but then 2 gets disabled, etc … it’s ridiculous. Sometimes I sit there for a few minutes trying to get all the tracks back in record state. AFAIK there is no “enable all for record” button.
>
> 4. I haven’t had much luck getting rewire to work properly. Some people have workarounds using the Environment (which is barely documented and not intuitive), but I gave up on using it. The Environment might fix my problem #1, but I heard it’s really tedious.

That really sucks, I use rewire with Max and Protools all the time.

>
> That said, no software is perfect. Logic gets the job done. Its MIDI editing and automation support is really good. I would also like to get Live one day, but I will probably stick with Logic as my primary DAW. Just expect some frustration if you plan on using a lot of custom controller assignments or when doing multitrack MIDI recording.

Which I do often lately, I’ve been using some analog modular filters and such with various outputs at various points in the signal chain, I try to record dry, wet, and a few patched in analog effects/synths, usually to separate channels.

> Sorry for the rant. Hopefully it helps make an informed decision.
—————————————————-

It definately helps, but leaves me where I started. :)
I was leaning towards logic, but now I’m not so sure. Any Digital Performer heads in here?

Thanks everyone, this is been a very informative thread so far.

#134035
Jun 16, 2008 at 11:53pm

Quote: DonK wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 16:22
—————————————————-
>
> That really sucks, I use rewire with Max and Protools all the time.
>

You should check with other Logic users. I think some people have successful Logic+Max rewire setups. But it can screw with MIDI messages going from Max to Logic for some reason (timing goes way off, notes start dropping out). At least, that was my experience.

None of the issues I described would bother me if I could use the Logic synths and FX inside Max. But Apple doesn’t expose them as AUs for use in another application. It’s pretty lame…

#134036
Jun 17, 2008 at 3:22pm

When it comes to editing MIDI data, Live is pretty clumsy.

#134037
Jun 17, 2008 at 3:42pm

Op 17-jun-2008, om 1:22 heeft Don K het volgende geschreven:

>
> Quote: Adam Murray wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 15:38
> —————————————————-
>> 1. MIDI learn/controller assignments. This can only be a global
>> setting. I have different controller assignments for different
>> projects, which seems like a pretty basic requirement, but Logic
>> does not support this at all. I had to write a script to backup my
>> controller assignment files with the current project, and remember
>> to manually restore them when switching projects. Even with that,
>> if I plug in a new piece of MIDI hardware it may shift all my
>> controller assignments up or down one device, completely ruining
>> the settings and then they have to be redone all over again. It
>> sucks, big time.

That is a problem, yes. Is DP or Cubase better in this respect?

>
> That sucks, I’m constantly rearranging my equipment, that could
> mess me up…
>
>> 2. I keep having these “system overload” messages that stop
>> playback or recording. Then I click play again and it’s fine. I
>> didn’t have this problem at first, but then a Logic/Leopard update
>> really seems to have screwed up my system. Tried tweaking my
>> preferences but never got this completely resolved. It’s just an
>> annoyance, really, but this kind of problem shouldn’t even exist
>> IMO (I’d rather have a gap in the sound then completely stopping
>> playback with an error). To prevent this, you can re-enable a
>> track for record but then I run into problem #3…
>>
>> 3. All tracks need to be enabled to record for multitrack
>> recording, which I do a lot. Sometimes while clicking around, a
>> single track gets selected and the rest disabled. What follows is
>> a wild goose chase where I click record on track 2 and 3, and then
>> track 1 gets disabled, so I click record on track 1 but then 2
>> gets disabled, etc … it’s ridiculous. Sometimes I sit there for
>> a few minutes trying to get all the tracks back in record state.
>> AFAIK there is no “enable all for record” button.
>>
>> 4. I haven’t had much luck getting rewire to work properly. Some
>> people have workarounds using the Environment (which is barely
>> documented and not intuitive), but I gave up on using it. The
>> Environment might fix my problem #1, but I heard it’s really tedious.
>
>
I don’t use rewire in Logic often, but it does work. At least, it
doesn’t work better or worse than other DAW’s.

> That really sucks, I use rewire with Max and Protools all the time.
>
>
>>
>> That said, no software is perfect. Logic gets the job done. Its
>> MIDI editing and automation support is really good. I would also
>> like to get Live one day, but I will probably stick with Logic as
>> my primary DAW. Just expect some frustration if you plan on using
>> a lot of custom controller assignments or when doing multitrack
>> MIDI recording.

The way multitrack MIDI recording works is less than ideal, but quite
usable. Recording audio is easy.

>
> Which I do often lately, I’ve been using some analog modular
> filters and such with various outputs at various points in the
> signal chain, I try to record dry, wet, and a few patched in analog
> effects/synths, usually to separate channels.
>

No problem in LP8.

>
>> Sorry for the rant. Hopefully it helps make an informed decision.
> —————————————————-
>
> It definately helps, but leaves me where I started. :)
> I was leaning towards logic, but now I’m not so sure. Any Digital
> Performer heads in here?
>

One more thing: LP8.0.2 is really stable…

#134038
Jun 18, 2008 at 1:55am

For the record, you can do project-based midi controller assignments in the environment. Its not as obvious as the control surface window, but I’ve found it to be easier to program once you get used to it. Read up on the ‘transformer’ object in the Logic Environment.

#134039
Jun 18, 2008 at 2:24am

Thanks everyone, this is great info. It’s great to hear the pros and cons of Logic and Live. But any feedback on Digital Performer?

#134040
Jun 18, 2008 at 6:15am

Quote: Nick Inhofe wrote on Tue, 17 June 2008 18:55
—————————————————-
> For the record, you can do project-based midi controller assignments in the environment. Its not as obvious as the control surface window, but I’ve found it to be easier to program once you get used to it. Read up on the ‘transformer’ object in the Logic Environment.
—————————————————-

Sounds like I need to take another look at the Environment.

DonK, I went on a bit of a bitchfest there (forums for stress relief?). Logic is definitely workable even if some things are a little painful. Most things are easy. The cost/value ratio is very good. Plus there are a few Max+Logic users active on this forum willing to help out and answer questions. That’s a definite bonus.

Maybe some Digital Performer user will chime in and say it’s awesome, and convince you that’s the better choice. Just don’t discount Logic because I am a bitchy user ;) Sometimes I go on rants about Max too…

#134041
Jun 18, 2008 at 1:27pm

Personally, I wouldn’t recommend Digital Performer. I’ve used it for a
long time but never found it very efficiently created, as in the way
it was programmed. In my experience you have to have a top of the line
machine to use it in even the simplest of ways. I remember trying to
select a waveform in the Soundbites window (sample editor) and as I
dragged, the selection was always waaayyy behind my mouse. It was
brutal that something simple like that was slow. Workflow I personally
think is a big issue. I switched recently to Logic and have not only
found it cheaper but easier to use plus it comes with a lot of
high-quality plug-ins.

#134042
Jun 18, 2008 at 2:49pm

I tried using Digital Performer and was not impressed. I found the program as a whole to be far too bulky. There’s just SO MUCH to it, which is good if you want to put it in vast amounts of time to truly learn the program inside and out, but I didn’t want to spend that kind of time on DP (wanted to spend it on max instead :-D ). I use Live and am very happy with it.

Live’s pros:

-Extremely intuitive, clear, efficent interface.
-Many good built in effects.
-Great for arranging and improvising.
-Works great as a ReWire master.
-Offers unique editing capabilities (global groove, warp markers, multiple time stretching options).
-CPU efficent
-Easy integration of VSTs/AUs
-Extremely easy access to sample library
-Create envelopes for ANYTHING within a loop.

Live’s cons:

-Limited audio editing, but this is compensated for by selecting an external audio editor that live will open for you and load the sample into with the click of a button (i use audacity for this).
-Can’t “pull apart” the screen. W/ DP and Reason, it’s possible to unattach parts of the screen, so you have more space for certain functions. This isn’t possible in Live, but you can readjust the size of parts of the screen which somewhat makes up for it.
-I’ve had problems running Live as a ReWire slave into Max.
-Price. But all of these programs are expensive, so there’s not much you can really do. It helps to be a student :-)

Some people have the misconception that Live is solely for “dance” music. Looping helps a lot with this, but I enjoy composing soft, textural, ambient pieces and have been very comfortable using Live.

I haven’t used Logic extensively, so I can’t really comment on it. I have access to Logic, but have found that Live has accomodated all my compositional needs so I have no real need to look into Logic.

#134043
Jun 18, 2008 at 10:59pm

Awesome. Lots of good info to mull over for my next software purchase. I’ve been using the slimmed down “bundled” version of Live that came with PT, I’ve been planning on upgrading to the full version.

But I think Logic is sounding pretty pretty good. And every logic user keeps mentioning how nice the plugins are…

Thanks to everyone who have posted their experiences good and bad. This will definitely be helpful deciding what to abandon PT for. :)

#134044

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.