Forums > MaxMSP

Phasor, shuffle and swing

June 6, 2014 | 4:30 pm

Hello everyone!
I have a problem (well several) which I will explain.
Suppose I use a ramp phasor read a buffer or seq~, while the ramp is eight eighth notes in a bar in 4, I want those eight eighth notes are played with swing executed within a phasor from 0. 1.
So far I’ve found in the forum, only solutions where the phasor is passed to logic gates.
What I’m trying to find a solution is something, functions that make these changes within continuity 0 1 probe some things with @ sync rate lock -., But no luck
Thank you very much gentlemen


June 6, 2014 | 7:07 pm

I had trouble understanding what you meant…("use a ramp phasor read a buffer or seq~": seems like there are vastly different ways for either… either one could also quantize/swing on the way into input, or on the way out…
"that make these changes within continuity 0 1": i think this means you want to control swing from a signal between 0 and 1? but then this sounds like you want a rate~ object set at ‘sync lock’ to control that: "probe some things with @ sync rate lock -.,"….)

so maybe this is just a patch to help me outline the principles involved to myself :D

– Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. –

and a general bump to the thread to invite others’ advice :)


June 7, 2014 | 5:40 am

People have a tendency to confuse swing with shuffle.

‘Swing’ is a very very complex thing to talk about. It is rooted in how the body/mind relates to and processes a flow time. And a lot of educators have failed by reducing swing to that 3 over 2 feeling of the eight notes in a 4/4 beat and the resulting shift in the placement of the notes. In the real world it is more a ‘feeling’ that reflects the ‘inner time’ of a musician and is acquired through a learning process and the experience when playing with others (!) …

Swing is a result of an emotion, a human quality. Rather leave it to the body than to the mind. It is something that ‘takes over’.
It is not based on a human driven contingency or incompetence of perfection e.g. inaccuracy. Instead it is a very consistent expression of a feeling.

Now, how one would put that into an algorithm is an intriguing question.
Here is an evidence of difference between man made vs machine made music.

As for the musical learning aspect i swing I find that Michal Longo makes good points in his book: ‘How To Sight Read Jazz And Other Syncopated Rhythms’.

Sorry, no cigar, eh, code …


June 7, 2014 | 7:25 am

Thanks Raja!!!
CTRLZJONES Thanks for enlightening us, you’re absolutely right about the nature of what we call "swing" phrasing and issues related to human tempo in general.

`

– Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. –

June 7, 2014 | 10:09 pm

"Swing is a result of an emotion, a human quality. Rather leave it to the body than to the mind. It is something that ‘takes over’."

I can swing wit dat! Truth waxes poetic :)

@wendycarlos

i see exactly what you’re trying to do now. thanks for the patch(so glad to see that old mike_s thread is still proving useful! :D).

i came pretty close today, trying to come up with something, but there are glitches if you try a ‘shuffle’ value less than 0.5(so i used quite a bit of gating and selecting to apply what i found worked to one case, and then what i found almost worked to the other case :p).
apologies for not getting it exactly, but i must budget my time :)
i also left in all the number~ boxes and scope~s to help you focus on the points of math i found most helpful/significant, maybe those will help you tweak it more easily and exactly for your needs:

– Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. –

doing this in gen~ or text-based code would be so much easier, but this vanilla-msp-object-only-version might help see the math more easily, too… either way, hope it helps. cheers!


June 8, 2014 | 4:26 pm

Raja Oh thanks for your time / knowledge and code in this thread and in the Mike_s.
I will study carefully the patch with much attention, I will share what I can find, if I find something!


June 9, 2014 | 10:47 am

Hi Wendy,

I’m not sure if this is what you’re looking for, but here is a patch that produces pairs of shuffled phasors as well as a crenellated phasor that can drive a seq~. (there’s a loadbang in the SetupSeq subpatch that needs to be triggered for the seq~ bit to work) For me, I like to think of it as two line segments; it’s similar to Raja’s approach in that regard.

The crenellated phasor~ will definitely work well for seq~ but will not be ideal for directly playing samples due to pitch shift effects with the slope changes. (though you could use the output of seq~ to fire off samples using play~/sfplay~ inside a poly~)

You can also do negative swing with values less than one as well. If you use a negative phasor, the swing values are inverted, but it still works otherwise, and you could add some logic to handle that.

Hope this helps, and apologies in advance for the Easter Egg.

– Pasted Max Patch, click to expand. –

June 9, 2014 | 12:18 pm

"Hope this helps, and apologies in advance for the Easter Egg."

got all curious looking in the patch for some kind of easteregg(y’know, i’m used to people saying that about online videos, when it’s because they accidentally left something in which held the shape of a cock or vagina…)… but i must’ve assumed wrongly ;D

It’s an awesome patch, though! :)


June 9, 2014 | 12:57 pm

Sorry, nothing dirty, just the opening of a prelude from the Well-Tempered Clavier.


June 9, 2014 | 1:02 pm

I have implemented swing for the Husserl step sequencer in REaktor, together with a randomizer to move note timing slightly at a skewed standard deviation around center for a more realistic effect, and the results were quite pleasing. I plan to be adding it to the Spiralab metasequencer by the end of this year, but the implementation of Husserl in Spiralab is still in early stages. The documentatiion is done though, and it can be seen here:

http://www.yofiel.com/software/metamusic/reaktor/husserl/husserl-panelset-a/trigger-panels#h8-swing

and here:

http://www.yofiel.com/software/metamusic/reaktor/husserl/husserl-panelset-b#h2-jitter-panel


June 9, 2014 | 1:55 pm

oh, so this thread is continuing … so I will continue pooping a little bit more; please discard if necessary (could be the best thing, it is just that something keeps me from restraining):

@Raja, we all admire the shared knowledge of yours; I continue to love your shaders from years ago, and syphon is big.
But when it comes to swing, I have to insist, algorithms are not yet capable to make up with humans until they emulate the necessity of expressing a feeling and sharing that very same. Patching as nifty as you do; they can handle sounds very well; but when it comes to beats they reveal their mechanic. Nothing wrong with that, but still light years away from swing … because they are bodies without organs.

And there must be something fascinating in pushing that. Keep on with it, Maybe there is little time left until we feel ‘kissed back’ by a computer?

And yes, it may be the wrong place for saying all this, but it always keeps me thinking about the nature of music and what machines/operators are doing to it; and how the real world changes with it into a giga-machine, with no space left for human feelings that are not reverse-engineerable …
Swing is one of them and love is another.
All you get back from the machine_industry is techno_music and porn_sex.

Doesn’t feel good until you become part of the machine that once was made to set us free; truth is that it enslaves imaginations and feelings because of its possibilities and probabilities.

oh my pathetic me, what have I become (talking about me, writing like that)

but thinking about real swing; it could be a backdoor …

  • This reply was modified 2 months by  ctrlzjones.

June 9, 2014 | 2:09 pm

"so I will continue pooping a little bit more"

hehe, my kinda humor ;D

"@Raja, we all admire the shared knowledge of yours; I continue to love your shaders from years ago, and syphon is big."

HAHA! You’re thinking of VADE! YES! He’s awesome, love that syphon, too. It’s an honor to be mistaken for him.
(I assure you, i’m much less important than he :D… but thank you for the complimentary sentiments…)

"But when it comes to swing, I have to insist, algorithms are not yet capable to make up with humans"

yes, indeed, i think actually, everyone in this thread has agreed completely with you so far :)
(i wrote "i can swing wit dat" referring to what you were saying as ‘dat’. meaning i can move-to-the-groove of what you’re saying and agree completely :)

edit: but i’ll remember to refer to the algorithmic emulation(which falls grossly short of a real human swaaaaang (<-see what i did there, almost said ‘swagger’ but then worked it into ‘swing’… an example of the humanness of ‘swing’ realized right here in text! (*applause* thank you, thank you very much))
as ‘shuffle’ from now on.
(maybe the math-emulation should be renamed more technically to describe what it actually does, though…. something like ‘quantize offset’… or ‘fake swagger’ >;D)


June 9, 2014 | 2:46 pm

right, i meant Vade; sorry for the digital_confusions. You both are examplified.

but now let’s have someone come up with a code that is really swinging, that I am longing to copy/paste for using it in my further proceedings …

the fake_swaggered_me.

  • This reply was modified 2 months by  ctrlzjones.
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June 9, 2014 | 3:09 pm

Peter your patch is just beautiful.
Ernest thanks !!!
Not to sound corny or condescending but ask a question and getting back
three solutions of my favorite gurus!!!!
We will study the dedication of Anna Magdalena studying his small notebook.
On the subject of swing, is very interesting to see that CTRLZJONES vehemently defends his point. Anyway I have often heard jazz students fall into an automatic swing or even antiswing.
Finally, if a patch emulate a breath, a pulsation, a somewhat organic, a tide..

Sorry for raving about it (and my eng): I think that happens in the flow of anticipation, a game with the analog but proportional relationships, happens in the mind of the performer senses the sites (strong and weak beats) and similarly using passing notes etc. lengthens and shortens lengths.
But the same objection is valid on the choice of a third or a fifth, the direction of the melody on a patch of algorithm melodic creation, if comparing with improvisation.
Thank you all, and sorry for these past delusions, blundering and cheesy.


June 9, 2014 | 3:54 pm

automatic_swing, anti_swing? never heard oft that …

maybe a question of connection with the machine that makes you loose the connection with the outer self / the others, that is reacting with a 0/1 where should be floatings or a contingency based on how you feel?

this is worse. not intendet but a result of the false promise machines are making to us.

I wish that we could overcome machines limitations. Thinking and feeling and playing and programming out of the square. This is what MAX/Msp was made for once, right?

I cannot write that code in MAX, but I wish that others could.
And then let me copy/paste it.

and apologies for not be helpful with your original request & being contra-productive not sending any code and with the *moohhs*, but as I said, this ‘groove a.k.a. swing – thing’ is keeping me for a long time and therefore I’d might be more insistent than I should be.

  • This reply was modified 2 months by  ctrlzjones.
  • This reply was modified 2 months by  ctrlzjones.

June 9, 2014 | 4:10 pm

Dear CTRLZJONES tu hablas castellano?


June 9, 2014 | 4:19 pm

yep,

but I cannot see how this would help the swing_phemomen, siendo no_negro ;-)

and there is still no cigar, eh, ‘make this a swingin-thing’ patch …
but I hope for one to come …

  • This reply was modified 2 months by  ctrlzjones.

June 9, 2014 | 4:34 pm

Vamos!!! nadie propone programar a George Benson aqui…


June 9, 2014 | 4:48 pm

yep, totally out. I’d say so. sorry: over_&_out.

George Benson is a crooner. Gotta listen to Zoot Sims, Cannonball Adderly & Ron Carter et.al when it comes to swing and groove …

good luck & sorry for the intrusion …


June 9, 2014 | 9:09 pm

One thing to consider on the automation of rhythm is how the act of creating a rhythm via computer controls is different from what a musician does when playing drums with sticks. The drummer moves limbs in some regular pattern. A computer musician uses a machine to create a regular pattern. The drummer may alter the pattern in ways to enhance a particular beat. A computer musician similarly alters the pattern to emphasize a particular beat. Maybe the only significant difference is that a drummer is more physical in order to evoke an elevated spirit through music, whereas a computer musician is more mindful and less physical, in order to attain a similar expression in the physicality of sound, without so much muscular exertion.


June 9, 2014 | 9:23 pm

@ctrlzjones: I’d say it’s less false promises from the machines, (poor things don’t even know they’re making music) and more naive wishful-thinking on the part of programmers. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying to bridge the gap between computers and human musicians, but it’s as yet hard to train machines to do some things that a five-year-old can do. On the other hand, there’s this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp89tTDxXuI


June 9, 2014 | 10:54 pm

Great video!!! give them a couple of sticks brushes, : ]
CTRLZJONES I promise not to name my future topics, with things like swing, analog, valves, haikus, true randomness, and especially "conscious" ..


June 9, 2014 | 11:48 pm

"Great video!!! give them a couple of sticks brushes, : ]"

well, since you mention it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm9R05PMHDM

(this thread was great to read, much much personality in the discussion here. thanks! favorited :D)


June 10, 2014 | 3:24 am

One last thing:

@wendycarlos
I am not picking on you, only (a little bit) on the thread. Instead I share your inquiry by heart. Because it is exactly this break point where the drama becomes visible. And it shows why we are (or at least I am) with Max. Hello world.

And I am totally aware that these comments do not belong directly in here, but as I am not able to be of constructive help with any code I still like to say something about it, that maybe gives a different perspective on thing. Although I am sure that most people here already have it.

Again: please disregard if necessary.

It is obvious that the quest of understanding oneself as human by reconstructing reflections into works of art/technology has been a driving force for culture from cave paintings through the inquisition to nanotech. Emulating our understanding of things (that is: us in the world) gave us the piano, Teflon and morphed the biface into a mouse.

The bad notice is that ultimately there is a feeling around that the commandments are changing the guard. We people are converging into operators of the machine that are being pleasured with all the things it (and by ‘it’ that I mean technology *and* economics) allows us to do instead of telling the machines what to do for us.
It seems that psycoanalists have to count in another phase into anal -> oral -> phallic, that is *tactil* and it regressional tendency hits us late, when the personality, what we are and what we want, should already be completely developed.
Our idea of creativity becomes more and more reduced to ‘what you can do with an .app’ and we (or at least me) are barley noticing that.

Again, I know that is not the best place to say all that; but I always enjoyed that the cycling74 forum is not only about ‘how to do stuff’ but also sometimes about ‘why to do stuff’.
And that rhythm stuff is a perfect example of human supremacy. The ‘drones-throwing-and-catchcing-sticks’ shows that technically we are still with Newtons mechanical universe. Only that is not longer falling apples to be understood but how algorithms are deciding for us what to do …


June 10, 2014 | 7:51 am

@RAJA_THE_RESIDENT_ASSWIPE sounds good!!! : )
@CTRLZJONES It’s an interesting discussion, the problem is that it is not my point, computers especially their interfaces are reducing us to a protolinguistic was? people in their touchscreens seem apes in an experiment? "Mac is Catholic, DOS is Protestant" as I said Umberto Eco? and still, and still!!!!
drop the bomb exterminate..!!!!
Lately there are interesting observations (I do not intend to talk much about what I do not know, at least without a few beers …) in fields such as neurology, some jobs credited observations and ideas about "decisions" someone was telling me a few days ago that many of these data (make choices about the things we face, even before this reaches our consciousness).
You said you did not know the term antiswing has to do with some erroneous way of phrasing which amalgamated accents and notes (usually related) compared to down and upbeat are poorly executed, although written, it could be said that it executed in that "antiswing" corresponds to eigths in swinging.
On the other hand (and my favorite of many):

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/does-bill-evans-swing/

Or is it simply a linear-nonlinearity problem.
The EWE people, has a good method to learn polyrhythm and simple, but basically manage to learn that small cross rhythms ..
The Hindus have other systems, eg konnakol.
I think (Sorry for my ignorance bold) somehow, different results generally between an adult like you said "no_negro", Indian and a white perhaps in this aspect simply a problem of education algorithm.
Please read: Ewe Meter as a Matrix

http://sites.tufts.edu/davidlocke/files/2012/01/Agbadza-Critical-Edition-final-DL1.pdf

on the other hand, something you wrote earlier: "Nothing wrong with That, but still light years away from swing … Because They are bodies without organs." I think it has to do with us is easier for most point (markov or not) to the structural rules, and certainly not the "gesture".

PS: Please read 3.1 Las relaciones https://sites.google.com/site/josanaramaio2/la-anacrusa-capitulo-4#_ftn1
Instead of measuring interruptions and turn them into a frequency of a phasor or bpm transport, ¿it is possible aproach to extract the time (bpm) of a (pseudo)continuous gesture?


June 11, 2014 | 2:10 pm

it seems that I killed a promising thread …
sorry for that.

I’d still hope to read more about electric music in regard to human perception/creation <-> machinistic mirrors/limitations of that; and the struggle with impotence on both sides …
the swing_thing looks like an inviting breakpoint.

yes, I play doublebass and there is a meme going: ‘you have to make the metronome swing …’

@wendycarlos: I am loosing you with what you are saying. too much offroad. but good luck on your way ;-)

as for the videos:
- the throwing_stick thing clearly shows that we are still after Newton; although one trembles with the stick, the emulation is purely mechanistic universe. No quantum feelings involved … it is still the old mirror neuron acting out.
. the presented .app is painful. you hear that Thelonious Monk is puttin down to all hims statistics and they are so far away from his actual playing. listen closely: it sounds as a Van Gogh done with ‘painting with numbers’. And the biggest mistake is to morph John Coltrane licks into Miles Davis. aahhrrggg. this cannot be taken seriously, not even by the facebook_crowd …

@Ernest: it is not the the sticks; it is the body that moves them, and the thing that makes the body move.
it could be the same thing that makes one write code …

@Peter: ‘poor things don’t even now they’re making music’
one would not to expect that from a piano; but it invites us to play with it and express ourselves.
musical instruments (and how your body handles them) are always the hardest limitation to overcome when it comes to playing. The difference is that it is unusual to expect something back from a piano; all that comes out of it is on your behalf.
well, okay, there is some promising publicity going on, buy this and you’ll sound more like you. but I never believed in that.
or as Brandford Marsalis puts it: you can get the hottest mouthpiece and sound great, but after two weeks it is all the same again, because the possibilities of your body (e.g. unconscious) and its imagined sound is stronger than any possible purchase. it will convert all the possibilities, shrink them until they fit the sounds you are able to imaging.

the difference with code is the the body is count out. feelings becomes brain matters that are reflected in code. how can code emulate an urge? swing is an urge.

so nut-picking, I know, but as this thread is already half burried, I thought I might give it an (pen)-ultimo hit.

—and if all this is obsolete, because there is already a theoretical reflection going on that I am unaware of, I’d love to read about it.

  • This reply was modified 2 months by  ctrlzjones.
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June 11, 2014 | 6:42 pm

amen … Ctrlz: bye bye … espero que logres tener algo de swing.
Suerte


June 11, 2014 | 11:42 pm

I always enjoyed that the cycling74 forum is not only about ‘how to do stuff’ but also sometimes about ‘why to do stuff’

definitely. agreed. and maybe every now and then, ‘stuff just for stuff’s sake’ :D

it seems that I killed a promising thread …
sorry for that.

you didn’t kill it ctrlz, we’re just a busy/distracted lot. keep writing more of your take in all kinds of threadz here :)


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