Rewiring full duplex in windows

Jan 9, 2007 at 5:36pm

Rewiring full duplex in windows

Hi,

I’m a windows user and I would be absolutely totally thrilled if there was a way to route audio back from the “mixer application” (Ableton Live in my case) to the “synth application” (max/msp).
I’m a windows user so I can’t use Jack or Soundflower, but I thought that I might try hardware-rewiring: just send out a signal through outputs 7/8 of my fireface 800, into inputs 7/8 and then receiving the signal with an adc~ object in max. But alas! I can’t use any input from the soundcard when I choose the “ad_rewire” driver.

Is there perhaps any way to use two drivers for audio input? Or is there any other way to do what I want to do?

- Tb

ps. Bonus question: How come those rewire-folks didn’t solve this problem a very long long time ago?

#29579
Jan 9, 2007 at 5:40pm

In the message above I forgot to mention that I’m using rewire and trying to find a way to make audio go both ways within this protocol.

#92829
Jan 9, 2007 at 6:32pm

not currently.
you only get one driver at a time w/ rewire.
but in terms of routing, you could just do this by selecting the same driver (non-ASIO) in both apps and routing w/r/t your needs.

worth mention: audio can certainly “go both ways” with rewire; you simply still have to initiate one app as the host and one as the slave.

take a look at these pages:
http://www.cycling74.com/story/2006/9/18/121516/485

http://www.cycling74.com/story/2006/12/15/161329/34

jl

#92830
Jan 9, 2007 at 6:49pm

Jack is making progress on Windows:

http://www.grame.fr/~letz/jackdmp.html

At 10:36 AM -0700 1/9/07, Tarik wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I’m a windows user and I would be absolutely totally thrilled if
>there was a way to route audio back from the “mixer application”
>(Ableton Live in my case) to the “synth application” (max/msp).
> I’m a windows user so I can’t use Jack or Soundflower, but I
>thought that I might try hardware-rewiring: just send out a signal
>through outputs 7/8 of my fireface 800, into inputs 7/8 and then
>receiving the signal with an adc~ object in max. But alas! I can’t
>use any input from the soundcard when I choose the “ad_rewire”
>driver.
>
>Is there perhaps any way to use two drivers for audio input? Or is
>there any other way to do what I want to do?
>
>- Tb
>
>ps. Bonus question: How come those rewire-folks didn’t solve this
>problem a very long long time ago?


Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X
http://www.defectiverecords.com

http://www.jackosx.com

#92831
Jan 10, 2007 at 12:06am

Thanks!

I tried installing jackdmp, together with qjackctl and I can get a connection via portaudio. But I don’t have a clue on how to make max or ableton getting sound to this portaudio driver.

And regarding Rewire going “both ways”… well it can go both ways, but not simultaneously, and that’s what I’m looking for. Unless of course you also regard midi as “audio”, but unfortunately I don’t.

So I’m still looking for a solution to the problem.

– Tb

#92832
Jan 10, 2007 at 12:42am

Feel fee to email Stephane Letz directly for help with JackDMP

Dan

At 5:06 PM -0700 1/9/07, Tarik wrote:
>Thanks!
>
>I tried installing jackdmp, together with qjackctl and I can get a
>connection via portaudio. But I don’t have a clue on how to make max
>or ableton getting sound to this portaudio driver.
>
>And regarding Rewire going “both ways”… well it can go both ways,
>but not simultaneously, and that’s what I’m looking for. Unless of
>course you also regard midi as “audio”, but unfortunately I don’t.
>
>So I’m still looking for a solution to the problem.
>
> – Tb


Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X
http://www.defectiverecords.com

http://www.jackosx.com

#92833
Jan 10, 2007 at 12:51am

Tarik skrev:
> And regarding Rewire going “both ways”… well it can go both ways, but not simultaneously, and that’s what I’m looking for.

So basically you are looking for something that rewire doesn’t do?
> So I’m still looking for a solution to the problem.
>
> – Tb
> __________________________________
Pluggos are my weapon of choice when dealing with maxMSP< ->Live.

Andreas.

#92834
Jan 10, 2007 at 7:01am

Hi,

> I tried installing jackdmp, together with qjackctl and I can get a
> connection via portaudio. But I don’t have a clue on how to make
> max or ableton getting sound to this portaudio driver.

You should use ASIO in max/ableton if i remember correctly.

Where did you find qjackctl for windows, I’ve missed it last time, so
I did all routing with cmdline:)

hth,
nesa

#92835
Jan 10, 2007 at 10:03am

> Where did you find qjackctl for windows, I’ve missed it last time, so
> I did all routing with cmdline:)

http://www.grame.fr/~letz/jackdmp.html …and then at the bottom of the page you’ll find a link to jackdmp for windows. I hope you’ll enjoy it more than I’m doing at the moment!

#92836
Jan 10, 2007 at 5:22pm

At 3:03 AM -0700 1/10/07, Tarik wrote:
> > So basically you are looking for something that rewire doesn’t do?
>
>Well, basically: yes. Is that strange?
>
>> Where did you find qjackctl for windows, I’ve missed it last time, so
>> I did all routing with cmdline:)
>
>http://www.grame.fr/~letz/jackdmp.html …and then at the bottom of
>the page you’ll find a link to jackdmp for windows. I hope you’ll
>enjoy it more than I’m doing at the moment!

I think you meant to say Qjackctl or windows… anyway, the direct
link is http://www.grame.fr/~letz/qjackctl.zip

Dan

Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X
http://www.defectiverecords.com

http://www.jackosx.com

#92837
Jan 11, 2007 at 12:14am

I’ve probably misunderstood what you’re doing but you might want to try senderella, you’ll find it if you search: http://www.kvraudio.com

It’ll let you send audio out of a vst host, so presumably you could then use rewire to get it back in…not sure if it’ll work in the [vst~] object or not though.

Hope that helps
John

#92838
Jan 11, 2007 at 2:57pm

Well, Neurodancer

Actually I thought your answer was a pretty nice one, so I tried it immediately. But unfortunately, senderella doesn’t work between audio applications, and neither do pluggo’s plugsend~ and plugreceive~ objects.

I’m still looking for a way to get this done (I think Jack would be the answer, if I can ever get it to work), and I’ll let you know if I ever get there.

But there’s one thing I don’t understand: how come that I seem to be only one of the very few who thinks it’s a very BIG shame that this stuff isn’t already totally standardised in a protocol a la rewire or a more sophisticated “senderella” or “plugsend~” type object?
Because for me it’s obvious that this would give a huge amount of new possibilities which I would love to dive into!

– Tb

#92839
Jan 12, 2007 at 7:09am

Tarik wrote:
> Is there perhaps any way to use two drivers for audio input? Or is
> there any other way to do what I want to do?

loopback your adat connection back into your fireface. Then you have 8
channels to use both ways I guess. (I heard rumuors though that in
windows only one application could talk to any interface…)

> ps. Bonus question: How come those rewire-folks didn’t solve this
> problem a very long long time ago?

Pop music does not seem to need it…

And you have to keep some unsolved problems to sell updates…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#92840
Jan 12, 2007 at 9:04am

> But there’s one thing I don’t understand: how come that I seem to be only one of the very few who thinks it’s a very BIG shame that this stuff isn’t already totally standardised in a protocol a la rewire or a more sophisticated “senderella” or “plugsend~” type object?
> Because for me it’s obvious that this would give a huge amount of new possibilities which I would love to dive into!
>
> – Tb

it is no suprise that this isnt the default behaviour of
rewire and similar stuff.

in most audio programs the “audio in” and “audio out” are
connected to each other (for example in logic or cubase),
so sending audio to another program and back would cause
a loop which causes a buffer underrun at least at one point
in the loop – and chrash the audio (and possibly the apps.)

only in programs like MAX, reaktor, or bidule you can have
“outs” independent from the “ins” as soon as you choose to
program such a patch yourself.

sending from live to max runtime and back to live is
possible with the pluggo runtime, you should think about this
solution.

#92841
Jan 13, 2007 at 2:48pm

Sorry Tarik, i thought that was what Senderella was for!!!

Somebody recommended it to me a while ago when i was dicussing similar things in a different forum…personally i just use my desk for re-routing signals and somebody told me i’d be better off using Senderella and thusly bypassing the A/D-D/A conversion process!

Regarding Stefan’s reply that Windows apps can only use one driver per app, this is true and Windows is generally crap for these things in my experience. You could use the ASIO4All driver but it’s often 2nd rate compared to dedicated drivers and you never get the same kind of latencies that you’d expect from a dedicated driver.

You could try the Networking tutorial on the Cycling site to see whether you can route your signals across your Ethernet connection on a local loopback, (you’ll need to use the[jit.catch~] and [jit.release~] objects), but i’ve had numerous problems with it on Windows due to the inbuilt firewall and still haven’t got it to work properly…you’d also need a copy of Jitter too.

Sadly Windows XP does seem to be a 2nd rate OS, when compared to Mac OSX, and Vista doesn’t seem likely to improve the situation any…(with a huge hit to resources, from my limited experience of it anyway).

I’ll have an ask around and see if i can find something that’ll do it for you, there must be something out there, but wouldn’t it be nice if Soundflower was released in Windows format? (It’s something i’d pay for, even if it is free for Mac OS).

#92842
Jan 13, 2007 at 3:27pm

At 2:48 PM +0000 1/13/07, john inder wrote:
>Sadly Windows XP does seem to be a 2nd rate OS, when compared to Mac
>OSX, and Vista doesn’t seem likely to improve the situation
>any…(with a huge hit to resources, from my limited experience of
>it anyway).
>
>I’ll have an ask around and see if i can find something that’ll do
>it for you, there must be something out there, but wouldn’t it be
>nice if Soundflower was released in Windows format? (It’s something
>i’d pay for, even if it is free for Mac OS).

For those of you on Mac OS, there’s an interesting thread emerging on
the Apple Core Audio developer list – see

http://lists.apple.com/archives/Coreaudio-api/2007/Jan/index.html

See the threads “Jack and CoreAudio (was Mirroring Audio Output)”,
and “Jack / Soundflower vs DRM”

Any support we could get would be greatly appreciated! Please try to
be respectful and on topic on that list though, it really is intended
for developer discussion, and not vitriol.

Dan

Dan Nigrin
Defective Records
202 Hack / PC-1600 User / VSTi Host / OMS Convert / Jack OS X
http://www.defectiverecords.com

http://www.jackosx.com

#92843
Jan 15, 2007 at 4:18pm

john inder wrote:
> I’ll have an ask around and see if i can find something that’ll do it
> for you, there must be something out there, but wouldn’t it be nice
> if Soundflower was released in Windows format? (It’s something i’d
> pay for, even if it is free for Mac OS).

Jack should be fine, you could donate to speed up the process of their
windows port… ;-)

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#92844

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