petterdass

Is it possible to keep subpatches zoomed in?

I love the zoom function, but i hate to zoom in again every time i open the patch!

ridiculous-basic-max5-question

The zoom state is not saved with a patcher. We consider this an editing property of a patcher (similar to whether the patcher is locked or unlocked, or whether you have several views of the patch open). The zoom state is preserved if you open the subpatcher window, change the zoom, close the subpatcher window and reopen it while the parent patcher is open.

This is not to say I am completely opposed to providing a way to save the zoom state in the patcher as an option. Just one more thing to know and configure, eating away at the usability of software.

On May 14, 2008, at 9:47 AM, petterdass wrote:

> Is it possible to keep subpatches zoomed in?

With the current version of Max, I don't think so.

On May 14, 2008, at 9:47 AM, petterdass wrote:
> Is it possible to keep subpatches zoomed in?

Chris Muir
cbm@well.com	
http://www.xfade.com

Quote: David Zicarelli wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 12:48

----------------------------------------------------

>Just one more thing to know and configure, eating away at the usability of software.

I'm curious as to what you mean here. Do you mean the more customizable the software is the less usable it is? The things you guys have done with Max 5 have made it infinitely MORE usable for me.

Oh, and I would like that same feature to be available as well. :-)

Quote: David Zicarelli wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 12:48
----------------------------------------------------
>Just one more thing to know and configure, eating away at the usability of software.
>
> David Z. 
----------------------------------------------------

Oh, and I would like that same feature to be available as well. :-)


if you could use CTRL + mousewheel for zooming then for me saving zoom state wouldnt be important as it would be really fast to zoom in and out.

as it is, its a bit, erm, lacking in usability :)

if you could use CTRL + mousewheel for zooming then for me saving zoom state wouldnt be important as it would be really fast to zoom in and out. 

as it is, its a bit, erm, lacking in usability :)


I totally agree, mouse wheel zooming would be great. 

I totally agree, mouse wheel zooming would be great. 
Can we please add this to 5.03


ok, another ridiculous basic question prompted by the original...

is there a zoom out feature in max5? it would be great to be able to zoom out in order to see large patches all at once instead of scrolling this way and that.

On May 14, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Blake Shaw wrote:

> is there a zoom out feature in max5? it would be great to be able to 

> zoom out in order to see large patches all at once instead of 

On May 14, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Blake Shaw wrote:
> is there a zoom out feature in max5? it would be great to be able to  
> zoom out in order to see large patches all at once instead of  
> scrolling this way and that.

> if you could just use CTRL + mousewheel for zooming then for me 

> saving zoom state wouldnt be important as it would be really fast to 

> as it is, its a bit, erm, lacking in usability :)

You do know about Cmd +, Cmd -, and Cmd 1, right?

On May 14, 2008, at 12:14 PM, mdk wrote:
> if you could just use CTRL + mousewheel for zooming then for me  
> saving zoom state wouldnt be important as it would be really fast to  
> zoom in and out.
>
> as it is, its a bit, erm, lacking in usability :)

On 14 mai 08, at 20:52, David Huff wrote:

> I'm curious as to what you mean here. Do you mean the more 

> customizable the software is the less usable it is?

I think what David says is, it's not currently possible to do it by 

message, it's not currently saved in the patch, although this might 

change in the feature, but we need to think a little bit more about 

the implementation first to make that feature obvious from an user 

> I'm curious as to what you mean here. Do you mean the more  
> customizable the software is the less usable it is?

I think what David says is, it's not currently possible to do it by  
message, it's not currently saved in the patch, although this might  
change in the feature, but we need to think a little bit more about  
the implementation first to make that feature obvious from an user  
interface point of vue.

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 21:49

> On May 14, 2008, at 12:14 PM, mdk wrote:

> > if you could just use CTRL + mousewheel for zooming then for me 

> > saving zoom state wouldnt be important as it would be really fast to 

> > as it is, its a bit, erm, lacking in usability :)

> You do know about Cmd +, Cmd -, and Cmd 1, right?

yeah, theyre fine but ctrl + / - requires 2 hands on the keyboard, ctrl + mousewheel would mean i can keep my left on the keyboard and right on the mouse, and if the zoom is centered around the cursor location then navigation would be a lot quicker, for me at least.

i would also like some kind of panning control, either the adobe style hold space and left button drag, or something like ctrl + right button drag.

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 21:49
----------------------------------------------------
>
> On May 14, 2008, at 12:14 PM, mdk wrote:
> > if you could just use CTRL + mousewheel for zooming then for me  
> > saving zoom state wouldnt be important as it would be really fast to  
> > zoom in and out.
> >
> > as it is, its a bit, erm, lacking in usability :)
>
>
> You do know about Cmd +, Cmd -, and Cmd 1, right?

Ah, the keyboard on my laptop has a Command key on the right side, too, so it's a one handed operation for me.

The two-finger scroll on my laptop makes navigation easy, too.

I can see really wanting the zoom features you mention if you are on a PC, but on a Mac, less so (at least for me).

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 13:49

Do you mean Cmd =, Cmd -, and Cmd 1? (at least on my italian mac book pro 10.4.11)

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 13:49
----------------------------------------------------
>
> You do know about Cmd +, Cmd -, and Cmd 1, right?
>
----------------------------------------------------

*** Linking this concept with the other huge text aliasing thread... It would appear that the ease of zoom is inversely related to limitations imposed by resolution.

***Possibly the option to make objects of a set size, no matter what zoom factor you are making max all ZUI like. definitely a separate zoom setting for bpatchers so you could zoom out of them and see the entire thing.

ok so just two points.  
***  Linking this concept with the other huge text aliasing thread...  It would appear that the ease of zoom is inversely related to limitations imposed by resolution.

***Possibly the option to make objects  of a set size, no matter what zoom factor you are making max all ZUI like.  definitely a separate zoom setting for bpatchers so you could zoom out of them and see the entire thing.


> I'm curious as to what you mean here. Do you mean the more

> customizable the software is the less usable it is? The things you

> guys have done with Max 5 have made it infinitely MORE usable for me.

In this case I guess its better to do that with a different patching 

habit than with a restored zoom. If I always want it bigger, then its 

better to use bigger fonts/objects in the first place...

If you temporarily zoomed in, you would not want that factor to jump at 

Making all objects bigger with scale/scale spacing is even faster than 

opening the inspector, clicking the "remember zoom attribute" closing 

Just some possible arguments against too many attributes. The more 

attributes, the more difficult to find the one you are interested in...

I think this request came from importing old patches. They have all way 

too small fonts and objects. Max 5 does need more space, that's a fact...

David Huff schrieb:
> I'm curious as to what you mean here. Do you mean the more
> customizable the software is the less usable it is? The things you
> guys have done with Max 5 have made it infinitely MORE usable for me.

In this case I guess its better to do that with a different patching 
habit than with a restored zoom. If I always want it bigger, then its 
better to use bigger fonts/objects in the first place...

If you temporarily zoomed in, you would not want that factor to jump at 
you the next time...

Making all objects bigger with scale/scale spacing is even faster than 
opening the inspector, clicking the "remember zoom attribute" closing 
the inspector and zoom in...

Just some possible arguments against too many attributes. The more 
attributes, the more difficult to find the one you are interested in...

I think this request came from importing old patches. They have all way 
too small fonts and objects. Max 5 does need more space, that's a fact...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


Yes. Sorry. At least the + is on the = key :-)

> *** Linking this concept with the other huge text aliasing thread... It would appear that the ease of zoom is inversely related to limitations imposed by resolution.

To me this discussion is amusing because until a couple of weeks ago, Max didn't zoom at all. Within that time it has become "less than usable." All of these suggestions are wonderful, but they are parasitic on the existence of zoom in the first place. While I agree any new feature will suck on some level when it is first introduced, it takes a different order of magnitude of time before appropriate improvements will start to become clear, let alone be implemented. For example, rather than save zoom levels with patchers, we have been more inclined to come up with a way to save an edit workspace either implicitly or explicitly.

But in the mean time, try to imagine what you can do with multiple views at variable resolutions, the navigate zoom feature, command keys linked to zoom, live scaling of objects, and so on.

> ***  Linking this concept with the other huge text aliasing thread...  It would appear that the ease of zoom is inversely related to limitations imposed by resolution.

Whoever said "less than usable" is either retarded or has an agenda (or both).

Actually I agree with the earlier post about the mouse scroll zoom. I requested it in an early thread after 5 was released and I do think it would make a big difference for me in many regards but it would also solve this issue of having set zoom values because it's just such a fast way to work you wouldn't really need them to be set (or at least I wouldn't).

NOT if it works like it does in Word 2004 or something though. I'm talking like how it works in Illustrator CS3. Smooth as butter.

If you haven't used this feature in something like Illustrator then you just don't know how much easier it can makes things. The [command +] way to zoom, even with a command key on the right side of the keyboard, can't really hold a candle to the way this feature can speed up things.

And that's not a Mac/PC thing because I've never owned anything but an Apple computer since I was playing King's Quest on my Apple IIe. ; )

Actually I agree with the earlier post about the mouse scroll zoom. I requested it in an early thread after 5 was released and I do think it would make a big difference for me in many regards but it would also solve this issue of having set zoom values because it's just such a fast way to work you wouldn't really need them to be set (or at least I wouldn't). 

If you haven't used this feature in something like Illustrator then you just don't know how much easier it can makes things. The [command +] way to zoom, even with a command key on the right side of the keyboard, can't really hold a candle to the way this feature can speed up things. 

> But in the mean time, try to imagine what you can do with multiple views at variable resolutions, the navigate zoom feature, command keys linked to zoom, live scaling of objects, and so on.

To simplify your imagining: If you want your zoom to "stick" when you close the patch, do it with scale, in the edit menu.

> But in the mean time, try to imagine what you can do with multiple views at variable resolutions, the navigate zoom feature, command keys linked to zoom, live scaling of objects, and so on.
>
>

Quote: stringtapper wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 23:25

> Whoever said "less than usable" is either retarded or has an agenda (or both).

thats David Z's phrase, when i said the zoom was 'lacking in usability' it was intended as a light hearted jibe at his earlier comment about things eating away at the usability of software.

as it is, its not less than usable, the point i was trying to make was exactly what you said, if you have a fast and easy way of zooming then storing zoom values with patches really isnt important.

overall this new UI / interaction stuff in max is great, its definitely way better than max 4, but the difficulty for me with 5 is that when you are used to other applications like photoshop / illustrator / flash within which you do those kinds of tasks all day like zooming, panning, scaling objects, aligning them etc..there is an immediate basis for comparison.

Quote: stringtapper wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 23:25
----------------------------------------------------
> Whoever said "less than usable" is either retarded or has an agenda (or both).

as it is, its not less than usable, the point i was trying to make was exactly what you said, if you have a fast and easy way of zooming then storing zoom values with patches really isnt important. 

overall this new UI / interaction stuff in max is great, its definitely way better than max 4, but the difficulty for me with 5 is that when you are used to other applications like photoshop / illustrator / flash within which you do those kinds of tasks all day like zooming, panning, scaling objects, aligning them etc..there is an immediate basis for comparison.


"in the mean time, try to imagine what you can do with multiple views at variable resolutions, the navigate zoom feature, command keys linked to zoom, live scaling of objects, and so on."

I didn't mean to minimize all over your efforts.

You guys rock. I worried about a metric shit ton of bugs, I worried my old patches not to open. I was worried my entire world to crumble and I'd to have to relearn everything. I was worried it might end up like SolidWorks. People always have small complaints about change but I think we can all agree max5 really knocks our socks off. Applause for a job well done. Thanks for putting so much work into it :-)

I didn't mean to minimize all over your efforts. 

You guys rock. I worried about a metric shit ton of bugs, I worried my old patches not to open.  I was worried my entire world to crumble and I'd to have to relearn everything.  I was worried it might end up like SolidWorks.  People always have small complaints about change but I think we can all agree max5 really knocks our socks off. Applause for a job well done.  Thanks for putting so much work into it  :-)

My apologies, I thought this was in reference to the guy who was ranting about font blurriness in that other thread.

Sorry I misquoted lacking in usability as less than usable. That was unfortunate -- I think it's based on my having been overly sensitive (and yet proud) when I was evaluated by students as "worse than poor" when I was a computer science instructor in grad school many years ago.

Sure, there's a temptation to spend years and years trying to compete with Adobe so you wouldn't notice you're not using Illustrator. However, I think there are ways to use variable resolution that are more suited to program visualization than making pictures, and I hope more of these will make their way into our editor in the future. I don't think looking at Adobe software for inspiration is a bad idea in principle, but Illustrator is not a programming environment.

i think this is actually a much more difficult task than dealing with a graphics application like illustrator because there are a lot more variations in how users approach the software and obviously striking the right balance between the quantity of features and being able to use the software is an art in itself.

take the panning method of 'hold space and click to drag', what happens if a box is highlighted and you have enabled 'typing edits selected object', you immediately start filling up an object with spaces so you have to remember to deselect anything before panning. that would be really annoying.

so, dont take any criticism too badly, i really admire the work you're doing and understand how hard it is (im a software developer myself, although i dont create things anywhere near as complex as max 5)

> i would also like some kind of panning control, either the adobe style hold

> space and left button drag, or something like ctrl + right button drag.

I love the improvements in Max5, and have never launched Max4 since I tried

But I must say that the Adobe way for panning/zooming is the best I know of.

I love the ergonomics of their shortcuts, especially the "space bar + click

& drag", and the coherence of the key combinations, easy to remember. The

best thing I know to move quickly and easily from one point to another is a

> i would also like some kind of panning control, either the adobe style hold
> space and left button drag, or something like ctrl + right button drag.
>
I love the improvements in Max5, and have never launched Max4 since I tried
5.
But I must say that the Adobe way for panning/zooming is the best I know of.
I love the ergonomics of their shortcuts, especially the "space bar + click
& drag", and the coherence of the key combinations, easy to remember. The
best thing I know to move quickly and easily from one point to another is a
2D space.
J-F.

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Thu, 15 May 2008 17:32

> But I would hate it if Max used the space bar for this. The space bar 

> is used for "Play" in lots of music applications, and I use it that way in Max, too.

what about CTRL + right button drag to pan? (or any modifier key with right button drag)

you could do both at the same time (or at least switch between them without lifting the modifier key)

Quote: Chris Muir wrote on Thu, 15 May 2008 17:32
----------------------------------------------------
> But I would hate it if Max used the space bar for this. The space bar  
> is used for "Play" in lots of music applications, and I use it that way in Max, too.

CTRL + mousewheel : zoom
CTRL + right button : pan

> you could do both at the same time (or at least switch between them 

On MacOS (10.4.6 or higher I think) ctrl+mousewheel is already taken 

> CTRL + mousewheel : zoom
> CTRL + right button : pan
>
> you could do both at the same time (or at least switch between them  
> without lifting the modifier key)
>
> that would be nice :)

On MacOS (10.4.6 or higher I think) ctrl+mousewheel is already taken  
by the OS. to zoom.

ridiculous basic Max5 question