connord@media.mit.edu

That has to be the biggest text patch I've seen yet. I think I

understand what you're trying to do, but a few details are unclear to

me. If you're trying to rearrange the scanlines of individual frame

on a frame by frame basis (that is not mixing the data temporally),

you can use jit.repos to do this quite easily. If you are trying to

mix and match scanlines of various frames, you can use

xray.jit.timecube @mode 2 to do temporal remapping in conjunction with

a 3d matrix. This is the most efficient way to do such things in

jitter right now. jit.glue/scissors isn't meant for such micro

operations and is best used for doing things on the order of 8 or less

segments as the patching can get hairy quickly and CPU usage goes up

fast. You can download xray.jit.timecube from

http://www.mat.ucsb.edu/~whsmith/xray.html

That has to be the biggest text patch I've seen yet.  I think I
understand what you're trying to do, but a few details are unclear to
me.  If you're trying to rearrange the scanlines of individual frame
on a frame by frame basis (that is not mixing the data temporally),
you can use jit.repos to do this quite easily.  If you are trying to
mix and match scanlines of various frames, you can use
xray.jit.timecube @mode 2 to do temporal remapping in conjunction with
a 3d matrix.  This is the most efficient way to do such things in
jitter right now.  jit.glue/scissors isn't meant for such micro
operations and is best used for doing things on the order of 8 or less
segments as the patching can get hairy quickly and CPU usage goes up
fast.  You can download xray.jit.timecube from
http://www.mat.ucsb.edu/~whsmith/xray.html .

scissors-and-glue-performance

You might also want to have a look at jit.plume for scanline offset 

You might also want to have a look at jit.plume for scanline offset 
based on luminance.

On Aug 7, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Andrew Benson wrote:

> You might also want to have a look at jit.plume for scanline offset 

There's also the jitter-examples/video/matrix/jit.matrix-drift- 

scanlines.pat, fwiw. Could perhaps be managed in Js/Java as well.

> You might also want to have a look at jit.plume for scanline offset  
> based on luminance.

There's also the jitter-examples/video/matrix/jit.matrix-drift- 
scanlines.pat, fwiw. Could perhaps be managed in Js/Java as well.

No, I am not rearranging the location of the scanlines - you are correct in thinking that I just want to fool around with temporality, so it looks like I will give xray.jit.timecube a look-see (as essentially what I'm doing is a timecube with visualization as per individual scanlines).

BTW - Inspiration for this project came last Friday when I saw a talk by Toshio Iwai at the MIT Media Lab. His project (from 1985 - form which he received many awards) Time Stratum was shown in a video. Iwai-San mentioned that many of his installations no longer function as they rely on old unavailable hardware - and it's too much of a bitch to remake them on new gear. Part of his talk was calling for methods to preserve media-art | he got this idea when he made 

 for Nintendo DS, which borrowed many ideas of his from previous installations. He was happy that in this game form - many of his ideas will be preserved.

What I'm trying to do is recreate Time Stratum so that others can enjoy it (using their computers and webcams) - I initially tried to do this in QuartzComposer as it seemed like a natural fit, but sadly QC does not have an available buffer... next version maybe.

Anyways... I'm trying to imagine how Iwai-San implemented this idea in 1985... Anyone want to posit a guess?

BTW - Inspiration for this project came last Friday when I saw a talk by Toshio Iwai at the MIT Media Lab.  His project (from 1985 - form which he received many awards) Time Stratum was shown in a video.  Iwai-San mentioned that many of his installations no longer function as they rely on old unavailable hardware - and it's too much of a bitch to remake them on new gear.  Part of his talk was calling for methods to preserve media-art | he got this idea when he made Electroplankton for Nintendo DS, which borrowed many ideas of his from previous installations.  He was happy that in this game form - many of his ideas will be preserved.

Anyways... I'm trying to imagine how Iwai-San implemented this idea in 1985...  Anyone want to posit a guess?

I looked up Time Stratum - how does this relate to the project? The 

project sounds intriguing, but I'm having trouble picturing what 

you're trying to accomplish? Why use scanlines?

Time Stratum (there are 3 listed, scroll down):

http://museum.doorsofperception.com/doors1/transcripts/iwai/iwai.html

On Aug 8, 2006, at 5:43 PM, Connor Dickie wrote:

> No, I am not rearranging the location of the scanlines - you are 

> correct in thinking that I just want to fool around with 

> temporality, so it looks like I will give xray.jit.timecube a look- 

> see (as essentially what I'm doing is a timecube with visualization 

> BTW - Inspiration for this project came last Friday when I saw a 

> talk by Toshio Iwai at the MIT Media Lab. His project (from 1985 - 

> form which he received many awards) Time Stratum was shown in a 

> video. Iwai-San mentioned that many of his installations no longer 

> function as they rely on old unavailable hardware - and it's too 

> much of a bitch to remake them on new gear. Part of his talk was 

> calling for methods to preserve media-art | he got this idea when 

> many ideas of his from previous installations. He was happy that 

> in this game form - many of his ideas will be preserved.

> What I'm trying to do is recreate Time Stratum so that others can 

> enjoy it (using their computers and webcams) - I initially tried to 

> do this in QuartzComposer as it seemed like a natural fit, but 

> sadly QC does not have an available buffer... next version maybe.

> Anyways... I'm trying to imagine how Iwai-San implemented this idea 

> in 1985... Anyone want to posit a guess?

I looked up Time Stratum - how does this relate to the project? The  
project sounds intriguing, but I'm having trouble picturing what  
you're trying to accomplish?  Why use scanlines?

>
> No, I am not rearranging the location of the scanlines - you are  
> correct in thinking that I just want to fool around with  
> temporality, so it looks like I will give xray.jit.timecube a look- 
> see (as essentially what I'm doing is a timecube with visualization  
> as per individual scanlines).
>
> BTW - Inspiration for this project came last Friday when I saw a  
> talk by Toshio Iwai at the MIT Media Lab.  His project (from 1985 -  
> form which he received many awards) Time Stratum was shown in a  
> video.  Iwai-San mentioned that many of his installations no longer  
> function as they rely on old unavailable hardware - and it's too  
> much of a bitch to remake them on new gear.  Part of his talk was  
> calling for methods to preserve media-art | he got this idea when  
> he made 
> flash.html">Electroplankton for Nintendo DS, which borrowed  
> many ideas of his from previous installations.  He was happy that  
> in this game form - many of his ideas will be preserved.
>
> What I'm trying to do is recreate Time Stratum so that others can  
> enjoy it (using their computers and webcams) - I initially tried to  
> do this in QuartzComposer as it seemed like a natural fit, but  
> sadly QC does not have an available buffer... next version maybe.
>
> Anyways... I'm trying to imagine how Iwai-San implemented this idea  
> in 1985...  Anyone want to posit a guess?
>
> Thanx for all your help!


My bad - I referenced the wrong project. I'm trying to re-create parts of his project called: "Another Time, Another Space" from 1993. now that we hae this corrected I can see how he acheived the effect in 1993 - It was a little hard for me to understand how this could have been done in the 80's. I was incorrect, sorry for the confusion.

As an aside - I tried out the xray.jit.timecube object and it seems to be too slow for my purposes. Perhaps I'm using it wrong, or perhaps it's because I'm using it on Intel OS X (in Rosetta).

I'm still working on this to see how I can make it work... I'll keep you all posted. Although I'm starting to think that this might be outside of what can be accomplished with Max/MSP with my current hardware.

My bad - I referenced the wrong project.  I'm trying to re-create parts of his project called:  "Another Time, Another Space" from 1993.  now that we hae this corrected I can see how he acheived the effect in 1993 - It was a little hard for me to understand how this could have been done in the 80's.  I was incorrect, sorry for the confusion.

As an aside - I tried out the xray.jit.timecube object and it seems to be too slow for my purposes.  Perhaps I'm using it wrong, or perhaps it's because I'm using it on Intel OS X (in Rosetta).

I'm still working on this to see how I can make it work... I'll keep you all posted.  Although I'm starting to think that this might be outside of what can be accomplished with Max/MSP with my current hardware.


On Aug 8, 2006, at 11:53 AM, Connor Dickie wrote:

> As an aside - I tried out the xray.jit.timecube object and it seems 

> to be too slow for my purposes. Perhaps I'm using it wrong, or 

> perhaps it's because I'm using it on Intel OS X (in Rosetta).

> I'm still working on this to see how I can make it work... I'll 

> keep you all posted. Although I'm starting to think that this 

> might be outside of what can be accomplished with Max/MSP with my 

I would definitely check out the drift scanlines example. The same 

concept can be applied to adding elements to a 3D "video/time cube" 

inserting 2D frames into the 3D cube, and pulling scanlines from the 

3D cube with standard jit.matrix srdim/dstdim messages for per pixel 

offsetting this technique will become too slow, which is why I 

believe Wesley ended up writing this object.

Lastly, for maximum performance, writing such an object in C, isn't 

that tough if you feel comfortable programming in C syntax languages. 

The biggest performance penalty will be due to memory access if the 

cube is large (make sure you have *lots* of RAM for this sort of 

thing, you might want to use uyvy or grgb data types to cut the ram 

usage in half). Perhaps in the future we'll extend jit.repos to work 

> As an aside - I tried out the xray.jit.timecube object and it seems  
> to be too slow for my purposes.  Perhaps I'm using it wrong, or  
> perhaps it's because I'm using it on Intel OS X (in Rosetta).
>
> I'm still working on this to see how I can make it work... I'll  
> keep you all posted.  Although I'm starting to think that this  
> might be outside of what can be accomplished with Max/MSP with my  
> current hardware.

I would definitely check out the drift scanlines example. The same  
concept can be applied to adding elements to a 3D "video/time cube"  
inserting 2D frames into the 3D cube, and pulling scanlines from the  
3D cube with standard jit.matrix srdim/dstdim messages for per pixel  
offsetting this technique will become too slow, which is why I  
believe Wesley ended up writing this object.

Lastly, for maximum performance, writing such an object in C, isn't  
that tough if you feel comfortable programming in C syntax languages.  
The biggest performance penalty will be due to memory access if the  
cube is large (make sure you have *lots* of RAM for this sort of  
thing, you might want to use uyvy or grgb data types to cut the ram  
usage in half). Perhaps in the future we'll extend jit.repos to work  
for >2 dimensions.

Well, first off you're using rosetta and have a definite performance

hit. I would suggest downloading the new UB versions of jitter and

max and emailing me offlist for a UB version of xray.jit.timecube as I

haven't had time to put together a UB download of the xray objects

yet. Also, I haven't been able to find any visual media showing the

installation, but I did find this snippet:

This sense of play , curiosity and inventiveness is reminicent too of the

fairground attraction and in many ways his approach mirrored that of

Toshio Iwai whose entire oeuvre including his public art is based on play .

In "Another Time, Another Space"created in Antwerp central station in

1993. Toshio Iwai made an electronic hall of mirrors using a tree structure

of video screens. The installation featured 15 video cameras, 30 computers,

30 video monitors, and a videodisk recorder. The comings and goings of

people through the station were filmed by the cameras, and manipulated in

real-time by the computer to deform shape, time reference, and showing a

different time-space environment in each movement. Video processing

software reflected back crowds like fields of wheat where algorithms

interpreted successive layers of crowd as wave- like motions. Sober-suited

business men leapt and cavorted in front of these magic mirrors.

"I used the "Another Time, Another Space" system to create an

experimental event as part of an NHK television program. People passing

in front of Shinjuku Sta tion were photographed by a video camera and the

images were altered and projected onto the giant Alta Vision screen across

the street. It caused a much larger commotion than we expected. The

moment the image appeared on the screen, hundreds of people started

gathering in front of the station and waving their hands and moving their

bodies as they watched their images on the screen. In that moment the big

screen that everyone had been taking for granted suddenly became a giant

I still have no idea what you're trying to do, maybe you could be more

specific than "recreate Another Time, Another Space". FWIW, I had

xray.jit.timecube running with a 720x480x100 buffer on a PC at 30FPS

with room for more speed and it runs quite fast at 320x240x100 on my

1.67G PPC powerbook. You could go to 620x480x100 if you did it with

http://www.vasulka.org/Steina/Steina_BentScans/BentScans.html

this along the lines of what you're trying to do?

> My bad - I referenced the wrong project. I'm trying to re-create parts of his project called: "Another Time, Another Space" from 1993. now that we hae this corrected I can see how he acheived the effect in 1993 - It was a little hard for me to understand how this could have been done in the 80's. I was incorrect, sorry for the confusion.

> As an aside - I tried out the xray.jit.timecube object and it seems to be too slow for my purposes. Perhaps I'm using it wrong, or perhaps it's because I'm using it on Intel OS X (in Rosetta).

> I'm still working on this to see how I can make it work... I'll keep you all posted. Although I'm starting to think that this might be outside of what can be accomplished with Max/MSP with my current hardware.

Well, first off you're using rosetta and have a definite performance
hit.  I would suggest downloading the new UB versions of jitter and
max and emailing me offlist for a UB version of xray.jit.timecube as I
haven't had time to put together a UB download of the xray objects
yet.  Also, I haven't been able to find any visual media showing the
installation, but I did find this snippet:

 This sense of play , curiosity and inventiveness is reminicent too of the
fairground attraction and in many ways his approach mirrored that of
Toshio Iwai whose entire oeuvre including his public art is based on play .
In "Another Time, Another Space"created in Antwerp central station in
1993. Toshio Iwai made an electronic hall of mirrors using a tree structure
of video screens. The installation featured 15 video cameras, 30 computers,
30 video monitors, and a videodisk recorder. The comings and goings of
people through the station were filmed by the cameras, and manipulated in
real-time by the computer to deform shape, time reference, and showing a
different time-space environment in each movement. Video processing
software reflected back crowds like fields of wheat where algorithms
interpreted successive layers of crowd as wave- like motions. Sober-suited
business men leapt and cavorted in front of these magic mirrors.
 "I used the "Another Time, Another Space" system to create an
experimental event as part of an NHK television program. People passing
in front of Shinjuku Sta tion were photographed by a video camera and the
images were altered and projected onto the giant Alta Vision screen across
the street. It caused a much larger commotion than we expected. The
moment the image appeared on the screen, hundreds of people started
gathering in front of the station and waving their hands and moving their
bodies as they watched their images on the screen. In that moment the big
screen that everyone had been taking for granted suddenly became a giant
interactive event."7

I still have no idea what you're trying to do, maybe you could be more
specific than "recreate Another Time, Another Space".  FWIW, I had
xray.jit.timecube running with a 720x480x100 buffer on a PC at 30FPS
with room for more speed and it runs quite fast at 320x240x100 on my
1.67G PPC powerbook.  You could go to 620x480x100 if you did it with
yuyv colorspace.

Also, check out this:
http://www.vasulka.org/Steina/Steina_BentScans/BentScans.html .  Is
this along the lines of what you're trying to do?

On 8/8/06, Connor Dickie  wrote:
>
> My bad - I referenced the wrong project.  I'm trying to re-create parts of his project called:  "Another Time, Another Space" from 1993.  now that we hae this corrected I can see how he acheived the effect in 1993 - It was a little hard for me to understand how this could have been done in the 80's.  I was incorrect, sorry for the confusion.
>
> As an aside - I tried out the xray.jit.timecube object and it seems to be too slow for my purposes.  Perhaps I'm using it wrong, or perhaps it's because I'm using it on Intel OS X (in Rosetta).
>
> I'm still working on this to see how I can make it work... I'll keep you all posted.  Although I'm starting to think that this might be outside of what can be accomplished with Max/MSP with my current hardware.
>


This is exactly what i am trying to do ;-)

Do you have any more information on this?

http://www.vasulka.org/Steina/Steina_BentScans/BentScans.html . Is
this along the lines of what you're trying to do?

Do you have any more information on this?


Check out jitter-examples/video/matrix/jit.matrix-scanlines.pat

Check out jitter-examples/video/matrix/jit.matrix-slitscan.pat

sorry, should read:
Check out jitter-examples/video/matrix/jit.matrix-slitscan.pat

On Aug 8, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Connor Dickie wrote:

> Do you have any more information on this?

This doesn't keep a volume of history, but is rather a slit scanning 

technique, and you can check out the jit.matrix-slitscan.pat (turn 

down the metro in the patch) for one of several ways you can do slit 

scanning in Jitter. For more information on slitscanning I think 

Golan Levin put together a catalogue of slit scan works 

If you do need to keep a voume of history for taking dynamic slices, 

you'll want to check out wes' object or the other suggested 

solutions. One of several different pieces which does this with a 

volume is the Kronos Projector which uses a haptic interface to push 

through the time. I'm pretty sure they used custom software with 3D 

textures. We don't expose the level of access to 3D textures in 

Jitter to let you do this without programming your own object in C, 

http://www.k2.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/members/alvaro/Khronos/

>
> Do you have any more information on this?

This doesn't keep a volume of history, but is rather a slit scanning  
technique, and you can check out the jit.matrix-slitscan.pat (turn  
down the metro in the patch) for one of several ways you can do slit  
scanning in Jitter. For more information on slitscanning I think  
Golan Levin put together a catalogue of slit scan works  
(rustle...rustle...here it is: http://www.flong.com/writings/lists/ 
list_slit_scan.html).

If you do need to keep a voume of history for taking dynamic slices,  
you'll want to check out wes' object or the other suggested  
solutions. One of several different pieces which does this with a  
volume is the Kronos Projector which uses a haptic interface to push  
through the time. I'm pretty sure they used custom software with 3D  
textures. We don't expose the level of access to 3D textures in  
Jitter to let you do this without programming your own object in C,  
but perhaps in the future.

Thanx everyone for thier input and help. Greatly appreciated. I've learned a lot.

I think that I'll probably give this idea a shot using some conventional language. I guess some of you guys suggested c.

Thanx everyone for thier input and help.  Greatly appreciated.  I've learned a lot.

I think that I'll probably give this idea a shot using some conventional language.  I guess some of you guys suggested c.


You should also check out Camille Utterback's work, very similar, 

http://www.camilleutterback.com/liquidtime.html

On Aug 9, 2006, at 4:28 AM, Connor Dickie wrote:

> Thanx everyone for thier input and help. Greatly appreciated. 

> I think that I'll probably give this idea a shot using some 

> conventional language. I guess some of you guys suggested c.

You should also check out Camille Utterback's work, very similar,  
especially "Liquid Time":

>
> Thanx everyone for thier input and help.  Greatly appreciated.   
> I've learned a lot.
>
> I think that I'll probably give this idea a shot using some  
> conventional language.  I guess some of you guys suggested c.


FWIW, xray.jit.timecube is does exactly what the Vasulka video shows

and a bit more. In mode 0, it will do a vertical slit-scan in mode 1

it will do a horizontal slit-scan and in mode 2 it will take a map as

input and give the appropriate pixels. Also, I don't think you're

going to be able to achieve any significant speedup over

xray.jit.timecube (at least in CPU processing). It's implemented

using a circular buffer and a sync signal, so it's quite efficient.

> You should also check out Camille Utterback's work, very similar,

> On Aug 9, 2006, at 4:28 AM, Connor Dickie wrote:

> > Thanx everyone for thier input and help. Greatly appreciated.

> > I think that I'll probably give this idea a shot using some

> > conventional language. I guess some of you guys suggested c.

FWIW, xray.jit.timecube is does exactly what the Vasulka video shows
and a bit more.  In mode 0, it will do a vertical slit-scan in mode 1
it will do a horizontal slit-scan and in mode 2 it will take a map as
input and give the appropriate pixels.  Also, I don't think you're
going to be able to achieve any significant speedup over
xray.jit.timecube (at least in CPU processing).  It's implemented
using a circular buffer and a sync signal, so it's quite efficient.

On 8/9/06, evan.raskob [lists]  wrote:
> You should also check out Camille Utterback's work, very similar,
> especially "Liquid Time":
>
> http://www.camilleutterback.com/liquidtime.html
>
> best,
> evan
>
> On Aug 9, 2006, at 4:28 AM, Connor Dickie wrote:
>
> >
> > Thanx everyone for thier input and help.  Greatly appreciated.
> > I've learned a lot.
> >
> > I think that I'll probably give this idea a shot using some
> > conventional language.  I guess some of you guys suggested c.
>
>


Well, that's good to know. I'll keep trying with the xray objects then - I'll have to ask you offline if I can have access to your Intel build of those objects so I can get the performance I need.

Well, that's good to know.  I'll keep trying with the xray objects then - I'll have to ask you offline if I can have access to your Intel build of those objects so I can get the performance I need.


you might also check out the work of Marlon Barrios-Solano, a

dancer/visualist who takes the slitscan aesthetic in interesting

p.s. (woohoo! first jitter post after months of no-time-for-maxing! :D)

> Well, that's good to know. I'll keep trying with the xray objects then - I'll have to ask you offline if I can have access to your Intel build of those objects so I can get the performance I need.

you might also check out the work of Marlon Barrios-Solano, a
dancer/visualist who takes the slitscan aesthetic in interesting
directions.

p.s. (woohoo!  first jitter post after months of no-time-for-maxing!  :D)

On 8/9/06, Connor Dickie  wrote:
>
> Well, that's good to know.  I'll keep trying with the xray objects then - I'll have to ask you offline if I can have access to your Intel build of those objects so I can get the performance I need.
>

-- 
***
http://danwinckler.com
http://share.dj
http://idmi.poly.edu


Scissors and Glue Performance