Cheng Chien-Wen

I have heard that there is some sensor that is designed for piano. I am writing a piece for piano and would not like to use Yamaha Disklavier to detect pitch and velocity since it will limit the chance to get the piece performed.

Could anyone let me know where I can find the piano sensor that detects the finger movement of the peformer and can send out data of pitch and velocity ?

sensor-for-piano-to-replace-yamaha-disklavier

well there is the piano bar, by moog.
but thats kinda pricey too.

you could make a video tracking system.
or build your own piano bar...

I worked on the Piano Bar with Don Buchla before it was licensed to Moog. It is VERY GOOD. Fast even response, consistent behavior and excellent dynamics. There is no way you could do this in a video system and doing it yourself would be a huge project.

Could anyone let me know where I can find the piano sensor that detects the finger movement of the peformer and can send out data of pitch and velocity ? 

Keith McMillen 
BEAM Foundation 
http://www.beamfoundation.org/ 
510.502.5310


Ultimately, my understanding is that the pianobar, just like the

disklavier is outputting MIDI, so (especially if you're not assuming

MIDI playback, just input) you even could write it for a keyboard. If

the disklavier is available, you use that. If not, you use a piano

The piano bar seems like a good idea, but it does one thing only, and

it's more expensive than several decent mid-range digital pianos.

Also, it means that your venue has to have a piano. With a keyboard,

you can decouple played pitch from sounding pitch. That said, it

would definitely be easier to schlepp the pianobar... It'd also be

very nice if MOOG offered a cheaper version sans sound-producing

module that just output MIDI, and omitted the flashing lights; nothing

like a grand mal seizure to ruin a practice session...

Ultimately, my understanding is that the pianobar, just like the
disklavier is outputting MIDI, so (especially if you're not assuming
MIDI playback, just input) you even could write it for a keyboard.  If
the disklavier is available, you use that.  If not, you use a piano
bar/keyboard (with sound module)

The piano bar seems like a good idea, but it does one thing only, and
it's more expensive than several decent mid-range digital pianos.
Also, it means that your venue has to have a piano.  With a keyboard,
you can decouple played pitch from sounding pitch.  That said, it
would definitely be easier to schlepp the pianobar...  It'd also be
very nice if MOOG offered a cheaper version sans sound-producing
module that just output MIDI, and omitted the flashing lights; nothing
like a grand mal seizure to ruin a practice session...

> I worked on the Piano Bar with Don Buchla before it was licensed to 

> Moog. It is VERY GOOD. Fast even response, consistent behavior and 

> excellent dynamics. There is no way you could do this in a video system 

> and doing it yourself would be a huge project.

Yes, video is way too slow, 25 or 30 frames/second just wouldn't work, 

and it would be hard or impossible to track all keys with just one 

And the Piano Bar seems easily transportable...

Keith McMillen wrote:
> I worked on the Piano Bar with Don Buchla before it was licensed to 
> Moog. It is VERY GOOD. Fast even response, consistent behavior and 
> excellent dynamics. There is no way you could do this in a video system 
> and doing it yourself would be a huge project.

Yes, video is way too slow, 25 or 30 frames/second just wouldn't work, 
and it would be hard or impossible to track all keys with just one 
camera anyway...
And the Piano Bar seems easily transportable...

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
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several years ago when I studied composition I wrote a piece for a machine we called a trimpin vorsetsel(?). It was a device with 88 pneumatic vents which were controlled by midi and which you placed on top of the keyboard of the piano. By sending a corresponding midi note number one of the vents pressed a key of the piano. It was even sensitive for note velocity but had a limited range between 20 and 100. The cool thing about it was that it was 88 voice polyphonic so you could write really crazy stuff and it would play it.

I think the conservatory of Amsterdam still owns two of them. They were made by this guy:

http://www.otherminds.org/shtml/Trimpin.shtml

several years ago when I studied composition I wrote a piece for a machine we called a trimpin vorsetsel(?). It was a device with 88 pneumatic vents which were controlled by midi and which  you placed on top of the keyboard of the piano. By sending a corresponding midi note number one of the vents pressed a key of the piano. It was even sensitive for note velocity but had a limited range between 20 and 100. The cool thing about it was that it was 88 voice polyphonic so you could write really crazy stuff and it would play it.
I think the conservatory of Amsterdam still owns two of them. They were made by this guy:

> several years ago when I studied composition I wrote a piece for a 

> machine we called a trimpin vorsetsel(?).

More than 20 years ago, I was involved with Richard Teitelbaums piano

project, wich utilised a Vorsetzer (a German word wich roughly

translates to "device to put in front". He was playing a prepared 

Bechstein grand piano to track his playing and we did the manipulation 

with a customized 68000 computer. No Midi for the Vorsetzer that time, 

though we did have a Midi interface on the computer and could pass it on...

For touring it was a bit heavy, but we played all over Europe, always 

carrying the Bechstein and two Vorsetzers.

> The cool thing about it was that it was 88 voice polyphonic so you 

> could write really crazy stuff and it would play it.

Though playing all 88 keys at the same time could burn a fuse and it we 

With the Disclaviers from Yamaha this system became obsolete...

danny de graan wrote:
> several years ago when I studied composition I wrote a piece for a 
> machine we called a trimpin vorsetsel(?).

More than 20 years ago, I was involved with Richard Teitelbaums piano
project, wich utilised a Vorsetzer (a German word wich roughly
translates to "device to put in front". He was playing a prepared 
Bechstein grand piano to track his playing and we did the manipulation 
with a customized 68000 computer. No Midi for the Vorsetzer that time, 
though we did have a Midi interface on the computer and could pass it on...
For touring it was a bit heavy, but we played all over Europe, always 
carrying the Bechstein and two Vorsetzers.

> The cool thing about it was that it was 88 voice polyphonic so you 
> could write really crazy stuff and it would play it.

Though playing all 88 keys at the same time could burn a fuse and it we 
had also solonoids burnt...

On 26-Jul-2006, at 11:09, Stefan Tiedje wrote:

> With the Disclaviers from Yamaha this system became obsolete...

Not entirely. Godfried-Willem Raes is still hard at work supporting 

his Player Piano, as well as a multitude of other MIDI-controllable 

Peter Castine +--> Litter Power & Litter Bundle for Jitter

Interface Building for |home | chez nous|

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On 26-Jul-2006, at 11:09, Stefan Tiedje wrote:
> With the Disclaviers from Yamaha this system became obsolete...

Not entirely. Godfried-Willem Raes is still hard at work supporting  
his Player Piano, as well as a multitude of other MIDI-controllable  
instruments.
automatons.html>

--------------    http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/Litter/    -------------
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iCE:  Sequencing,  Recording &
       Interface  Building  for                   |home    | chez nous|
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> Though playing all 88 keys at the same time could burn a fuse and > it we had also solonoids burnt...

When we had concerts with the Vorsetzel we brought our own technician with us because it did burnout fuses (a lot)...even with the midi ones. I talked to my former teacher and he said that there are planes to (re)build some new ones with all the problems resolved.

I don't know if Trimpin build anything like a sensor device for piano's but I know Roland did for sometime. It was like the Pianobar from Moog but had a range of only 2 octaves. I don't think it was a big success but maybe you can find them on the net for a bargain.

Stefan Tiedje wrote:
> Though playing all 88 keys at the same time could burn a fuse and > it we had also solonoids burnt...

When we had concerts with the Vorsetzel we brought our own technician with us because it did burnout fuses (a lot)...even with the midi ones. I talked to my former teacher and he said that there are planes to (re)build  some new ones with all the problems resolved.

> I don't know if Trimpin build anything like a sensor device for

The contacts Richard Teitelbaum used I think came from Trimpin, but they 

had to be built into the Piano (drilling wholes into the wood and such 

nasties). Years after the project was finished, someone from Bechstein 

told me they had to throw away the grand afterwards because of that... 

(It was too late, I couldn't ask them to give it to me instead ;-)

danny de graan wrote:
> I don't know if Trimpin build anything like a sensor device for
> piano's 

The contacts Richard Teitelbaum used I think came from Trimpin, but they 
had to be built into the Piano (drilling wholes into the wood and such 
nasties). Years after the project was finished, someone from Bechstein 
told me they had to throw away the grand afterwards because of that... 
(It was too late, I couldn't ask them to give it to me instead ;-)

has anybody had experience with this device and might be willing to share?

anything new about the pianobar? 
has anybody had experience with this device and might be willing to share?


I used it once and it reacted very well, capturing velocity. There's a

slightly tedious set-up routine, but that only has to be done once. It's a

bit bulky and can get in the way of the fingers at times. The MIDI sounds

are not very good, but I guess you'll probably be wanting to bypass the

synth any way. All in all, the best solution I've come across.

> has anybody had experience with this device and might be willing to share?

I used it once and it reacted very well, capturing velocity. There's a
slightly tedious set-up routine, but that only has to be done once. It's a
bit bulky and can get in the way of the fingers at times. The MIDI sounds
are not very good, but I guess you'll probably be wanting to bypass the
synth any way. All in all, the best solution I've come across.

On 14/03/07, yair reshef  wrote:
>
>
> anything new about the pianobar?
> has anybody had experience with this device and might be willing to share?
>

-- 
Jonathan Green
0777 1680 497
jonathan@jg1983.co.uk

Sensor for piano to replace Yamaha Disklavier ?