disturb

I know asking for patches is not best practice around here, and i'm sorry about that.

But are there any, rather advanced, sequencing patches that you'd recommend ?

Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX, but i'd like to get ideas from other peoples' concepts and designs.

sequencing-patches

Quote: jeanfrancois.charles wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 08:04

----------------------------------------------------

> > Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX.

> Well, that's maybe not the best reason. Actually, sequencing is the worst

max at least lets you program your sequencer like you want, making your own gives you freedom.

try probability in cubase or changing signatures in protools.

so, mister "disturb", start with [metro] connected to a [counter]. then try out what results you can get. 

Quote: jeanfrancois.charles wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 08:04
----------------------------------------------------
> > Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX.
>
> Well, that's maybe not the best reason. Actually, sequencing is the worst
> thing in Max for the moment.

so, mister "disturb", start with [metro] connected to a [counter]. then try out what results you can get. 
dont plan too much. start making it.


> Quote: jeanfrancois.charles wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 08:04

> ----------------------------------------------------

>>> Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX.

>> Well, that's maybe not the best reason. Actually, sequencing is the worst

That's why I say: SO TOTALLY WRONG! (shouting is a bit of net-Tourettes, 

Andreas (almost solely doing sequencing in Max.)

Roman Thilenius skrev:
> Quote: jeanfrancois.charles wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 08:04
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>>> Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX.
>>>
>> Well, that's maybe not the best reason. Actually, sequencing is the worst
>> thing in Max for the moment.
>>
>
>
> thats a radical statement. 
>
> i like radical statements. 
>
So do I.

That's why I say: SO TOTALLY WRONG! (shouting is a bit of net-Tourettes, 
sorry).
Andreas (almost solely doing sequencing in Max.)

what are your grudges with sequencing actually ?

what are your grudges with sequencing actually ?
is it timeline-related ?


On Jun 8, 2007, at 6:12 AM, disturb wrote:

> But are there any, rather advanced, sequencing patches that you'd 

> Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX, but i'd 

> like to get ideas from other peoples' concepts and designs.

You can check out the Monolake sequencer on Cycling's share pages:

https://cycling74.com/twiki/bin/view/Share/Monolake

It's eccentric, but you can learn lots by taking it apart.

> But are there any, rather advanced, sequencing patches that you'd  
> recommend ?
>
> Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX, but i'd  
> like to get ideas from other peoples' concepts and designs.

http://www.daevlmakr.com
http://www.2secondfuse.com

Quote: disturb wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 11:28

> what are your grudges with sequencing actually ?

yes what jeanfrancois had in mind was the "timing issues" stuff which is m uch discussed around here.

it is well possible in max to program a tight sequener app, just not every day, not for everyone, on every computer.

i believe it also depends on the weather.

at least for beginners it is difficult, and it is also difficult to build a tight sequencer for LOTSA EVENTS on a slower computer.

if you want to play a concerto grande partiture with max, you would have to add a short "timing errors compensation delay" at the end of your data path. 

which is what seqencer programs like cubase do - with the difference that they are also able to calculate and play the data preemtive. (=earlier than your eyes see reaching that timepoint)

Quote: disturb wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 11:28
----------------------------------------------------
> what are your grudges with sequencing actually ?
> is it timeline-related ?

it is well possible in max to program a tight sequener app, just not every day, not for everyone, on every computer.
i believe it also depends on the weather.

at least for beginners it is difficult, and it is also difficult to build a tight sequencer for LOTSA EVENTS on a slower computer. 

if you want to play a concerto grande partiture with max, you would have to add a short "timing errors compensation delay" at the end of your data path. 
which is what seqencer programs like cubase do - with the difference that they are also able to calculate and play the data preemtive. (=earlier than your eyes see reaching that timepoint)

>I know asking for patches is not best practice around here, and i'm sorry about that.

>But are there any, rather advanced, sequencing patches that you'd recommend ?

>Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX, but i'd like to get ideas from other peoples' concepts and designs.

I'm using a patch that gives me step-sequencer-like functions as well as a bunch of other note generation methods, that I call Gyre. You may be able to grab some ideas from Gyre, although I've not released the patch itself. Info on this patch can be found here: 

I put up a couple very simple examples that illustrate some very basic sequencing techniques here though:

Chris Muir | "There are many futures and only one status quo.

cbm@well.com | This is why conservatives mostly agree,

 | and radicals always argue." - Brian Eno

At 7:12 AM -0600 6/8/07, disturb wrote:
>I know asking for patches is not best practice around here, and i'm sorry about that.
>
>But are there any, rather advanced, sequencing patches that you'd recommend ?
>
>Sequencing is basically the reason i'm getting into MAX, but i'd like to get ideas from other peoples' concepts and designs.

I'm using a patch that gives me step-sequencer-like functions as well as a bunch of other note generation methods, that I call Gyre. You may be able to grab some ideas from Gyre, although I've not released the patch itself. Info on this patch can be found here: http://www.xfade.com/Gyre

I put up a couple very simple examples that illustrate some very basic sequencing techniques here though:
http://www.xfade.com/max/examples/

-- 
Chris Muir           | "There are many futures and only one status quo.
cbm@well.com         |  This is why conservatives mostly agree,
http://www.xfade.com |  and radicals always argue." - Brian Eno


My experience also is that it is not easy to achieve an always accurate sequencing machine from MAX. But atomic clock precision has nothing to do with music in my opinion. A lot of people use MAX because it is so convenient to interface it with various human situations (gesture, ...). That way you can do human music, that ultraprecised sequencers cannot.

So the problem seems to be some jitter in the timing ?

I couldn't checkout that monolake patch thopugh, i'm on PC.

So the problem seems to be some jitter in the timing ?
Sounds kinda bad...

Quote: disturb wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 11:30

> So the problem seems to be some jitter in the timing ?

Well, I've never found it to be as bad as some people. For example this is four voices of Buchla 200e sequenced in time: 

There is a _little_ timing variation, but it's also not too bad, IMO, as long as Overdrive is enabled. I find Max pretty usable for sequencing stuff, at least in the way I've been using it.

Quote: disturb wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 11:30
----------------------------------------------------
> So the problem seems to be some jitter in the timing ?
> Sounds kinda bad...

Well, I've never found it to be as bad as some people. For example this is four voices of Buchla 200e sequenced in time: 
http://www.xfade.com/Buchla/#TableThing

hey chris, funny i just stumbled over your webpage through matrixsynth this morning.

I must say i checked every square inch of the page looking for a download link ;)

Your patch looks very interesting, hope you release it someday...

hey chris, funny i just stumbled over your webpage through matrixsynth this morning.
I must say i checked every square inch of the page looking for a download link ;)
Your patch looks very interesting, hope you release it someday...


forgot to ask if the ppl having a hard time with timimng inconsistancy, experience the same problems when the patch is pluggo-ed and loaded in a vst host ?

Yeah, no Gyre download link, sorry. As far as releasing it, I'm still thinking about how, and if, I should make it available.

- Other people will have good ideas for it, and implement them

- It's tied to my specific setup. Work to generalize it.

- Have to create at least _some_ sort of documentation.

- I'm still whacking at it fairly regularly, and trying to figure out how to integrate my changes with a release process is a PITA.

- No really good way for multiple contributers, that I know of, in Max development. One of the drawbacks of Max being a graphic environment.

So far, it's seeming like releasing it will slow me down more than it will help me, sorry to say.

I've tried to release parts of it, like the gesture system, at any rate.

Pros:
- Other people will have good ideas for it, and implement them

Cons:
- It's tied to my specific setup. Work to generalize it.
- Have to create at least _some_ sort of documentation.
- I'm still whacking at it fairly regularly, and trying to figure out how to integrate my changes with a release process is a PITA.
- No really good way for multiple contributers, that I know of, in Max development. One of the drawbacks of Max being a graphic environment.

I've tried to release parts of it, like the gesture system, at any rate.


On Jun 8, 2007, at 11:30 AM, disturb wrote:

> I couldn't checkout that monolake patch thopugh, i'm on PC.

You should still be able to open it. I just checked and the only 

label, which is a Lobject and available for Windows

iGate, which was an optimized gate for ints in OS9. You can 

substitute a regular gate object for this, if I remember correctly.

If nothing else, you can still check out the components of the patch 

to get ideas for ways to accomplish various tasks. Prior to Live, I 

remember hearing this patch was used for sequencing early Monolake 

tracks, so there's one example of Max/MSP being used to sequence with 

You should still be able to open it.  I just checked and the only  
externals are:

iGate, which was an optimized gate for ints in OS9.  You can  
substitute a regular gate object for this, if I remember correctly.

If nothing else, you can still check out the components of the patch  
to get ideas for ways to accomplish various tasks.  Prior to Live, I  
remember hearing this patch was used for sequencing early Monolake  
tracks, so there's one example of Max/MSP being used to sequence with  
acceptable timing.

Quote: spears@2secondfuse.com wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 13:47

> On Jun 8, 2007, at 11:30 AM, disturb wrote:

> > I couldn't checkout that monolake patch thopugh, i'm on PC.

> You should still be able to open it. I just checked and the only 

> label, which is a Lobject and available for Windows

> iGate, which was an optimized gate for ints in OS9. You can 

> substitute a regular gate object for this, if I remember correctly.

> If nothing else, you can still check out the components of the patch 

> to get ideas for ways to accomplish various tasks. Prior to Live, I 

> remember hearing this patch was used for sequencing early Monolake 

> tracks, so there's one example of Max/MSP being used to sequence with 

thanks it seems to have loaded fine (didn't signal any missing external and whatnot).

I'm having a hard time figuring it out though, and can't read the manual with a regular text editor, there is no file extension either ; could anyone tell me what's the file format ?

Quote: spears@2secondfuse.com wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 13:47
----------------------------------------------------
> On Jun 8, 2007, at 11:30 AM, disturb wrote:
>
> > I couldn't checkout that monolake patch thopugh, i'm on PC.
>
> You should still be able to open it.  I just checked and the only  
> externals are:
>
> label, which is a Lobject and available for Windows
>
> iGate, which was an optimized gate for ints in OS9.  You can  
> substitute a regular gate object for this, if I remember correctly.
>
> If nothing else, you can still check out the components of the patch  
> to get ideas for ways to accomplish various tasks.  Prior to Live, I  
> remember hearing this patch was used for sequencing early Monolake  
> tracks, so there's one example of Max/MSP being used to sequence with  
> acceptable timing.
>
> Vlad
>
>
> Vlad Spears
> Urbi et orbi
>
> http://www.daevlmakr.com
> http://www.2secondfuse.com
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------

Quote: disturb wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 12:55

> forgot to ask if the ppl having a hard time with timimng inconsistancy, experience the same problems when the patch is pluggo-ed and loaded in a vst host ?

thats a good question dude. in fact some people are using their sequencers as pluggos because of a "better timing" (without going into technical details now).

i can only recommend it, especially to steinberg- and DP-users which would like to sequence 100 controllers at once, which is almost impossible in a maxmsp-patch (though inside max it would still be more accurate than when sent to coremidi, lol, sorry for that.)

but seriously, it is definetly possible to build an 8-row sequencer playing 1/64 notes with maxmsp. the inaccuracy of data inside max is still much less than data send from a mac to a hardware midi interface - you would be surprised how "inaccurate" a cubase->midiinterface->norlead system in fact is.

with 32 rows it might be a different situation ...

Quote: disturb wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 12:55
----------------------------------------------------
> forgot to ask if the ppl having a hard time with timimng inconsistancy, experience the same problems when the patch is pluggo-ed and loaded in a vst host ?
>
----------------------------------------------------

thats a good question dude. in fact some people are using their sequencers as pluggos because of a "better timing" (without going into technical details now). 

with 32 rows it might be a different situation ... 

On Jun 8, 2007, at 2:01 PM, disturb wrote:

> thanks it seems to have loaded fine (didn't signal any missing 

Definitely check the Max window. There are some abstractions in a 

separate directory which it should be complaining about, and the two 

missing externals which are included in the archive, but are only for 

OS9. There is a third external in there, as well, [modifers], but 

it's part of the regular Max/MSP distribution now.

> I'm having a hard time figuring it out though, and can't read the 

> manual with a regular text editor, there is no file extension 

> either ; could anyone tell me what's the file format ?

> thanks it seems to have loaded fine (didn't signal any missing  
> external and whatnot).

Definitely check the Max window.  There are some abstractions in a  
separate directory which it should be complaining about, and the two  
missing externals which are included in the archive, but are only for  
OS9.  There is a third external in there, as well, [modifers], but  
it's part of the regular Max/MSP distribution now.

>
> I'm having a hard time figuring it out though, and can't read the  
> manual with a regular text editor, there is no file extension  
> either ; could anyone tell me what's the file format ?

> iGate, which was an optimized gate for ints in OS9. You can substitute 

> a regular gate object for this, if I remember correctly.

This is correct, either open the patch as text and replace every igate 

with gate, or save the patch below as igate into your search path, then 

(if you need more than 32 outlets, open it with shift-cmd to prevent the 

deletion of outlets and edit to your liking...)

You can also save it as bgate, fgate, sgate, lgate... to substitute the 

other ancient optimized gates with unoptimized ones...

The speed of computers has been raised by a factor of 100 or something 

like that in the mean time (means unoptimized is fine...)

Vlad Spears schrieb:
> iGate, which was an optimized gate for ints in OS9.  You can substitute 
> a regular gate object for this, if I remember correctly.

This is correct, either open the patch as text and replace every igate 
with gate, or save the patch below as igate into your search path, then 
it will substitute automatically...
(if you need more than 32 outlets, open it with shift-cmd to prevent the 
deletion of outlets and edit to your liking...)
You can also save it as bgate, fgate, sgate, lgate... to substitute the 
other ancient optimized gates with unoptimized ones...
The speed of computers has been raised by a factor of 100 or something 
like that in the mean time (means unoptimized is fine...)

-- 
Stefan Tiedje------------x-------
--_____-----------|--------------
--(_|_ ----|-----|-----()-------
-- _|_)----|-----()--------------
----------()--------www.ccmix.com


> • error: table: doesn't understand "signal"

I didn't follow the thread but this one means that there's a signal 

I didn't follow the thread but this one means that there's a signal  
object connected to a table.

Well, if i were looking for traditionnal sequencing, i wouldn't be wasting my time on MAX...

Trying PX18 i experienced the timing problems ppl mentionned.

MidiYoking it back into LIVE, MAX, would sometimes freeze for a little bit when switching program windows, which would fuck up my manual sync.

I guess this has to do with the gui, i should look into how to properly sync those two, i'm not sure what are the options available though, as far as syncing goes (rewire, midi clock ?), can this be improved ?

Trying PX18 i experienced the timing problems ppl mentionned.
MidiYoking it back into LIVE, MAX, would sometimes freeze for a little bit when switching program windows, which would fuck up my manual sync.
I guess this has to do with the gui, i should look into how to properly sync those two, i'm not sure what are the options available though, as far as syncing goes (rewire, midi clock ?), can this be improved ?

Now seems like a good time to share the sequencer I've been working on with jsui. The forums told me to be skeptical of getting accurate timing, but it seems to work okay.

I was more interested in writing it to come up with a convenient way to carry around all the numbers I wanted to send to my synth than because I'm planning on writing lots of loopy beats. What's the more conventional solution to this problem?

The code and an example patch (and a save file for the sequencer and the patch for the synth it's driving) are at www.dandroid.org/max/ddseq/ .

There are probably still some bugs to be worked out, but it's pretty stable. Let me know if you think you might find it useful.

Now seems like a good time to share the sequencer I've been working on with jsui.  The forums told me to be skeptical of getting accurate timing, but it seems to work okay.

I was more interested in writing it to come up with a convenient way to carry around all the numbers I wanted to send to my synth than because I'm planning on writing lots of loopy beats.  What's the more conventional solution to this problem?

There are probably still some bugs to be worked out, but it's pretty stable.  Let me know if you think you might find it useful.

I agree. If your going to do normal linear sequencing,

use MIDIYoke/Rewire into Ableton live. Assuming you have it.

Subject: [maxmsp] Re: Sequencing patches ?

> Well, if i were looking for traditionnal sequencing, i wouldn't be 

> Trying PX18 i experienced the timing problems ppl mentionned.

> MidiYoking it back into LIVE, MAX, would sometimes freeze for a 

> little bit when switching program windows, which would fuck up my 

> I guess this has to do with the gui, i should look into how to 

> properly sync those two, i'm not sure what are the options 

> available though, as far as syncing goes (rewire, midi clock ?), 

I agree. If your going to do normal linear sequencing,
use MIDIYoke/Rewire into Ableton live. Assuming you have it.
No sense in reinventing the wheel.

----- Original Message -----
From: disturb 
Date: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:49 pm
Subject: [maxmsp] Re: Sequencing patches ?

>
> Well, if i were looking for traditionnal sequencing, i wouldn't be 
> wasting my time on MAX...
>
> Trying PX18 i experienced the timing problems ppl mentionned.
> MidiYoking it back into LIVE, MAX, would sometimes freeze for a 
> little bit when switching program windows, which would fuck up my 
> manual sync.
> I guess this has to do with the gui, i should look into how to 
> properly sync those two, i'm not sure what are the options 
> available though, as far as syncing goes (rewire, midi clock ?), 
> can this be improved ?
>
> cheers
>


Quote: dgood@alum.mit.edu wrote on Mon, 11 June 2007 15:26

> Now seems like a good time to share the sequencer I've been working on with jsui. The forums told me to be skeptical of getting accurate timing, but it seems to work okay.

> I was more interested in writing it to come up with a convenient way to carry around all the numbers I wanted to send to my synth than because I'm planning on writing lots of loopy beats. What's the more conventional solution to this problem?

> The code and an example patch (and a save file for the sequencer and the patch for the synth it's driving) are at www.dandroid.org/max/ddseq/ .

> There are probably still some bugs to be worked out, but it's pretty stable. Let me know if you think you might find it useful.

I was just wondering how i could get a gui module to provide that type of drawing feature...

I only tried the demo patch though, but i can report that i often got small chunks of notes left after deleting with right click.

I'm not sure thefunctions on the right are acting properly too, maybe that's just me.

And last but not least, this was very cpu taxing, i don't know how much of it should be accounted for the synth or the seq, but that was pretty worrying (reached around 75 % on my pentium4 3.5ghz).

Please keep us informed of your progress !

Quote: dgood@alum.mit.edu wrote on Mon, 11 June 2007 15:26
----------------------------------------------------
> Now seems like a good time to share the sequencer I've been working on with jsui.  The forums told me to be skeptical of getting accurate timing, but it seems to work okay.
>
> I was more interested in writing it to come up with a convenient way to carry around all the numbers I wanted to send to my synth than because I'm planning on writing lots of loopy beats.  What's the more conventional solution to this problem?
>
> The code and an example patch (and a save file for the sequencer and the patch for the synth it's driving) are at www.dandroid.org/max/ddseq/ .
>
> There are probably still some bugs to be worked out, but it's pretty stable.  Let me know if you think you might find it useful.
>
> cheers,
> Dan
----------------------------------------------------
Dan, this is VERY interesting stuff !
I was just wondering how i could get a gui module to provide that type of drawing feature...
I only tried the demo patch though, but i can report that i often got small chunks of notes left after deleting with right click.
I'm not sure thefunctions on the right are acting properly too, maybe that's just me.
And last but not least, this was very cpu taxing, i don't know how much of it should be accounted for the synth or the seq, but that was pretty worrying (reached around 75 % on my pentium4 3.5ghz).

Please keep us informed of your progress !


Quote: Roald Baudoux wrote on Mon, 11 June 2007 06:54

> The problem comes from the graphical user interface.

now that is another interesting radical statement.

you cant make sequencers in max because of the lack of fancy 3D knobs, is that what you wanted to say? :)

Quote: Roald Baudoux wrote on Mon, 11 June 2007 06:54
----------------------------------------------------
> Timing is not the main issue with Max.
>
> The problem comes from the graphical user interface.

you cant make sequencers in max because of the lack of fancy 3D knobs, is that what you wanted to say? :)


> I only tried the demo patch though, but i can report that i often got small chunks of notes left after deleting with right click.

I'm not sure what you mean deleting with the right click. The delete button works fine from here. I don't have a windows computer to try it out with, but if you want to email me exactly what you're doing I'll see if I can figure it out.

Likewise with the ui objects on the right side. I did my best to integrate the max objects with the jsui, but I'm not sure if I did it the best way possible.

> And last but not least, this was very cpu taxing, i don't know how much of it should be accounted for the synth or the seq, but that was pretty worrying (reached around 75 % on my pentium4 3.5ghz).

Yeah, that seems to be the case, it's all in the sequencer. I'll see if I can simplify what it's putting in the high-priority thread.

I'm not sure what you mean deleting with the right click.  The delete button works fine from here.  I don't have a windows computer to try it out with, but if you want to email me exactly what you're doing I'll see if I can figure it out.

Likewise with the ui objects on the right side.  I did my best to integrate the max objects with the jsui, but I'm not sure if I did it the best way possible.

Yeah, that seems to be the case, it's all in the sequencer.  I'll see if I can simplify what it's putting in the high-priority thread.


Actually it turns out that the processor hosage comes from all the redrawing, not from the data manipulation.