Axiom-Crux

Tonight in the middle of a very important show at Miami Art Central Museums exhibition for "Centre Pompidou" collection my metro simply stopped and would not restart. As closing the patch at this moment would not be acceptable I was forced to drone and tried to jog it back into working by turning off the overdrive. This caused max to crash. I covered up and held together very well by restarting max while playing synths, but this tempo/metronome problem has to be fixed. I cant understand after 5 versions that this has not been addressed. Why is it that max metro and tempo will just stop after a long time, and drift out of sync or humanistically bang out of beat now and then. Im using a G5 dual 2ghz with OSX 10.3.9 and I have this problem every once and a while, and until now it was ok to have it in the studio but not in a prestigious gig. I use max/msp as a good portion of my live setup, and I would love to continue my passionate use of this awesome software, can you please fix this one very important problem with the fundimental metro+tempo objects.

Tonight in the middle of a very important show at Miami Art Central Museums exhibition for "Centre Pompidou" collection my metro simply stopped and would not restart.  As closing the patch at this moment would not be acceptable I was forced to drone and tried to jog it back into working by turning off the overdrive.  This caused max to crash.  I covered up and held together very well by restarting max while playing synths, but this tempo/metronome problem has to be fixed.  I cant understand after 5 versions that this has not been addressed.  Why is it that max metro and tempo will just stop after a long time, and drift out of sync or humanistically bang out of beat now and then.  Im using a G5 dual 2ghz with OSX 10.3.9 and I have this problem every once and a while, and until now it was ok to have it in the studio but not in a prestigious gig.  I use max/msp as a good portion of my live setup, and I would love to continue my passionate use of this awesome software, can you please fix this one very important problem with the fundimental metro+tempo objects.

urgent-request-for-the-programmers-of-maxmsp

You could try to see if the tl.metro abstraction, driven by audio signal 

whenever audio is on, would work more reliable. I have received a few 

suggestions that has not made it into it so far due to my own time 

issues, but it's a fairly simple abstraction, so you can tweek whatever 

way you want to. It's part of tl.objects:

> Tonight in the middle of a very important show at Miami Art Central Museums exhibition for "Centre Pompidou" collection my metro simply stopped and would not restart. As closing the patch at this moment would not be acceptable I was forced to drone and tried to jog it back into working by turning off the overdrive. This caused max to crash. I covered up and held together very well by restarting max while playing synths, but this tempo/metronome problem has to be fixed. I cant understand after 5 versions that this has not been addressed. Why is it that max metro and tempo will just stop after a long time, and drift out of sync or humanistically bang out of beat now and then. Im using a G5 dual 2ghz with OSX 10.3.9 and I have this problem every once and a while, and until now it was ok to have it in the studio but not in a prestigious gig. I use max/msp as a good portion of my live setup, and I would love to continue my passionate use of this awesome software, can you p!

> lease fix this one very important problem with the fundimental metro+tempo objects.

You could try to see if the tl.metro abstraction, driven by audio signal 
whenever audio is on, would work more reliable. I have received a few 
suggestions that has not made it into it so far due to my own time 
issues, but it's a fairly simple abstraction, so you can tweek whatever 
way you want to. It's part of tl.objects:

Nicholas C. Raftis III wrote:
> Tonight in the middle of a very important show at Miami Art Central Museums exhibition for "Centre Pompidou" collection my metro simply stopped and would not restart.  As closing the patch at this moment would not be acceptable I was forced to drone and tried to jog it back into working by turning off the overdrive.  This caused max to crash.  I covered up and held together very well by restarting max while playing synths, but this tempo/metronome problem has to be fixed.  I cant understand after 5 versions that this has not been addressed.  Why is it that max metro and tempo will just stop after a long time, and drift out of sync or humanistically bang out of beat now and then.  Im using a G5 dual 2ghz with OSX 10.3.9 and I have this problem every once and a while, and until now it was ok to have it in the studio but not in a prestigious gig.  I use max/msp as a good portion of my live setup, and I would love to continue my passionate use of this awesome software, can you p!
>  lease fix this one very important problem with the fundimental metro+tempo objects.
>
> Thank you so much.
>

you could also save the following abstraction (which I call 

kt_metro~, but it's up to you) and use it as an audio metro

as metro if you provide an argument, it will be tthe metro speed, 

i use it since only a short time, but it seems to work ok

>You could try to see if the tl.metro abstraction, driven by audio 

>signal whenever audio is on, would work more reliable. I have 

>received a few suggestions that has not made it into it so far due 

>to my own time issues, but it's a fairly simple abstraction, so you 

>can tweek whatever way you want to. It's part of tl.objects:

>>Tonight in the middle of a very important show at Miami Art Central 

>>Museums exhibition for "Centre Pompidou" collection my metro simply 

>>stopped and would not restart. As closing the patch at this moment 

>>would not be acceptable I was forced to drone and tried to jog it 

>>back into working by turning off the overdrive. This caused max to 

>>crash. I covered up and held together very well by restarting max 

>>while playing synths, but this tempo/metronome problem has to be 

>>fixed. I cant understand after 5 versions that this has not been 

>>addressed. Why is it that max metro and tempo will just stop after 

>>a long time, and drift out of sync or humanistically bang out of 

>>beat now and then. Im using a G5 dual 2ghz with OSX 10.3.9 and I 

>>have this problem every once and a while, and until now it was ok 

>>to have it in the studio but not in a prestigious gig. I use 

>>max/msp as a good portion of my live setup, and I would love to 

>>continue my passionate use of this awesome software, can you!

>> lease fix this one very important problem with the fundimental 

you could also save the following abstraction (which I call 
kt_metro~, but it's up to you) and use it as an audio metro

as metro if you provide an argument, it will be tthe metro speed, 
default is 1000

>You could try to see if the tl.metro abstraction, driven by audio 
>signal whenever audio is on, would work more reliable. I have 
>received a few suggestions that has not made it into it so far due 
>to my own time issues, but it's a fairly simple abstraction, so you 
>can tweek whatever way you want to. It's part of tl.objects:
>
>http://www.bek.no/~lossius/download
>
>Best,
>Trond
>
>
>Nicholas C. Raftis III wrote:
>>Tonight in the middle of a very important show at Miami Art Central 
>>Museums exhibition for "Centre Pompidou" collection my metro simply 
>>stopped and would not restart.  As closing the patch at this moment 
>>would not be acceptable I was forced to drone and tried to jog it 
>>back into working by turning off the overdrive.  This caused max to 
>>crash.  I covered up and held together very well by restarting max 
>>while playing synths, but this tempo/metronome problem has to be 
>>fixed.  I cant understand after 5 versions that this has not been 
>>addressed.  Why is it that max metro and tempo will just stop after 
>>a long time, and drift out of sync or humanistically bang out of 
>>beat now and then.  Im using a G5 dual 2ghz with OSX 10.3.9 and I 
>>have this problem every once and a while, and until now it was ok 
>>to have it in the studio but not in a prestigious gig.  I use 
>>max/msp as a good portion of my live setup, and I would love to 
>>continue my passionate use of this awesome software, can you!
>  p!
>>  lease fix this one very important problem with the fundimental 
>>metro+tempo objects.
>>
>>Thank you so much.
>>
>
>


maybe its because im doing something different, or perhaps that i have xp. anywayz, the following patch works solid for me. its a clock from my sequencer. inputs/outputs are labeled, hopefully you will understand. let me know otherwise, i ll explain. you need to hava some kind of data array with note lengths, which will respond to bangs by outputting notelength in ticks (notelength=25000*note type (ie 1/1 for a note that is 1 bar long). changing the tempo will change the note durations on the fly for you. changing the direction, ie pressing reverse, will cause the clock to run backwards, while keeping in mind, how far did it get after triggering the last step (x.ticks), and taking this time (x) before triggering this step again. if yourdata array will respondf correctly to reverse mode, you will get an effect of as if you were reversing a tape. i have it all, i can send you, but not sure if will understand it...

the timing protect patch makes sure that if current note is calculated to be 25000.2323 ticks long, the next note will 0.2323ticks longer then calculated. remember tempo changes are calculated in realtime:))

-------------------------------------------------------------------

maybe its because im doing something different, or perhaps that i have xp. anywayz, the following patch works solid for me. its a clock from my sequencer. inputs/outputs are labeled, hopefully you will understand. let me know otherwise, i ll explain. you need to hava some kind of data array with note lengths, which will respond to bangs by outputting notelength in ticks (notelength=25000*note type (ie 1/1 for a note that is 1 bar long). changing the tempo will change the note durations on the fly for you. changing the direction, ie pressing reverse, will cause the clock to run backwards, while keeping in mind, how far did it get after triggering the last step (x.ticks), and taking this time (x) before triggering  this step again. if yourdata array will respondf correctly to reverse mode, you will get an effect of as if you were reversing a tape. i have it all, i can send you, but not sure if will understand it...

Thank you Trond and Kasper, those phasor metronome abstractions should work. I can't believe I never thought of it. Ichyhead, your patch I don't see how it will help my situation, though it seems useful. Im missing about half the externals or abstractions.

To re-explain in short Metro and Tempo just stop working after a while, they just stop outputting bangs. and even if I restart it sometimes it still wont work.

I don't understand why such an essential object is fatally flawed in its inherent programming, I mean no other softwares I own just randomly stop in the middle of performance, and Max/msp is by far the coolest, is it like the amazing brains who coded this cared about making a million other objects and not fixing the most important one of all???

Thank you Trond and Kasper, those phasor metronome abstractions should work.  I can't believe I never thought of it.  Ichyhead, your patch I don't see how it will help my situation, though it seems useful. Im missing about half the externals or abstractions. 

 To re-explain in short Metro and Tempo just stop working after a while, they just stop outputting bangs.  and even if I restart it sometimes it still wont work. 

 I don't understand why such an essential object is fatally flawed in its inherent programming, I mean no other softwares I own just randomly stop in the middle of performance, and Max/msp is by far the coolest, is it like the amazing brains who coded this cared about making a million other objects and not fixing the most important one of all???


On 01 Oct 2006, at 18:17, Nicholas C. Raftis III wrote:

> I don't understand why such an essential object is fatally flawed 

> in its inherent programming, I mean no other softwares I own just 

> randomly stop in the middle of performance,

> and Max/msp is by far the coolest, is it like the amazing brains 

> who coded this cared about making a million other objects and not 

> fixing the most important one of all???

well, noone knows what you are doing to your metro, or the rest of 

so this general rant won't be of any help, just showing your 

e.g. a broken metro sounds like a dead scheduler.

>  I don't understand why such an essential object is fatally flawed  
> in its inherent programming, I mean no other softwares I own just  
> randomly stop in the middle of performance,
hey, you must be a lucky man...

> and Max/msp is by far the coolest, is it like the amazing brains  
> who coded this cared about making a million other objects and not  
> fixing the most important one of all???

well, noone knows what you are doing to your metro, or the rest of  
the patch resp.
so this general rant won't be of any help, just showing your  
frustration.

e.g. a broken metro sounds like a dead scheduler.


>> and Max/msp is by far the coolest, is it like the amazing brains

>> who coded this cared about making a million other objects and not

>> fixing the most important one of all???

>well, noone knows what you are doing to your metro, or the rest of

>so this general rant won't be of any help, just showing your

The frustration is understandable (even if his

assumption about amazing brains is a bit flawed),

and - to his credit - he DID mention what kind of

machine he's running on. He forgot to mention what

version of Max/MSP/Jitter he's running, though.

But you're right - without more information of a

specific nature, it's unlikely that this will 

receive the attention the original poster evidently

For a listing of things that WILL help achieve the

https://cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=80289&rid=0&srch=bug+guidelines#msg_80289

>> and Max/msp is by far the coolest, is it like the amazing brains
>> who coded this cared about making a million other objects and not
>> fixing the most important one of all???

>well, noone knows what you are doing to your metro, or the rest of
>the patch resp.
>so this general rant won't be of any help, just showing your
>frustration.

The frustration is understandable (even if his
assumption about amazing brains is a bit flawed),
and - to his credit - he DID mention what kind of
machine he's running on. He forgot to mention what
version of Max/MSP/Jitter he's running, though.

But you're right - without more information of a
specific nature, it's unlikely that this will 
receive the attention the original poster evidently
feels it deserves.

For a listing of things that WILL help achieve the
original poster's goals, see

https://cycling74.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=80289&rid=0&srch=bug+guidelines#msg_80289


>>and Max/msp is by far the coolest, is it like the amazing brains 

>>who coded this cared about making a million other objects and not 

>>fixing the most important one of all???

>well, noone knows what you are doing to your metro, or the rest of 

>so this general rant won't be of any help, just showing your frustration.

that's true, however everybody knows than metro and in general timing 

IS a problem in max - there was a lot of discussions about it, a lot 

of explainations (it is because of the OS etc etc) however it is true 

than most (or all ?) other software i know CAN display time ok, and 

>
>>and Max/msp is by far the coolest, is it like the amazing brains 
>>who coded this cared about making a million other objects and not 
>>fixing the most important one of all???
>
>well, noone knows what you are doing to your metro, or the rest of 
>the patch resp.
>so this general rant won't be of any help, just showing your frustration.
>

that's true, however everybody knows than metro and in general timing 
IS a problem in max - there was a lot of discussions about it, a lot 
of explainations (it is because of the OS etc etc) however it is true 
than most (or all ?) other software i know CAN display time ok, and 
keep a steady pulse....

kasper
-- 
  Kasper T. Toeplitz
noise, composition, bass, computer
http://www.sleazeArt.com

yeas , sorry i realize it now, i have the metro setup same as you do. however when i tested this patch it did run smooth for around 24hours without getting out of sync (the purpose of the tesdt) or stopping. i wouldnt introduce any signals into this, since conversion objects from signals to max messages (wndows) isnt solid. have you tried reseting the metronomes speed every hour or so? maybe that could help metro to stay awake.

missing timecount? not to worry..not part of the patch. missing lobjects? how can you work in max without them??

I had these timing problems as well until I found out that Max is not the black box, 'click 'n drag 'n everything will be fine' toy I thought it was.

Max is no more and no less than a 5th (or 4th if you want) level programming language with a huge standard library, which means

a) you have to be aware of the way max works underneath the objects. Especially the way max uses different event-handling mechanisms to accomplish different tasks.

b) if you are not, a lot of inexplainable things happen that have the same effect as a bug (eg "why doesn't this work, all I did was combining two working helpfiles?")

c) you have to be a technician (as in 'geek' or 'nerd') to use max effectively

d) Cycling '74 will never be able to promote Max like this..

REAKTOR is also an extraordinary sonic laboratory, its modular design releasing you from the constraints of more conventional setups. The extensive library of macros and modules combined with REAKTOR's clear, uncomplicated interface turns the construction of sonic tools into an intuitive process.

To be complete, I must add that NI has even less right to promote its product this way. Reaktor doesn't even come close to a programming environment. To make a setup that goes beyond 'the constraints of more conventional setups' is ultimately impossible in Reaktor. If anyone cares I will be happy to substantiate these claims. I used Reaktor extensively. My advise: go with the standard instruments. They are neatly worked around the shady parts of the reaktor core, a process that is impossible to complete without daily contact with a Reaktor developer.

Max is no more and no less than a 5th (or 4th if you want) level programming language with a huge standard library, which means
a) you have to be aware of the way max works underneath the objects. Especially the way max uses different event-handling mechanisms to accomplish different tasks.
b) if you are not, a lot of inexplainable things happen that have the same effect as a bug (eg "why doesn't this work, all I did was combining two working helpfiles?")
c) you have to be a technician (as in 'geek' or 'nerd') to use max effectively
d) Cycling '74 will never be able to promote Max like this..

[Quote]
Building a Better Future
REAKTOR is also an extraordinary sonic laboratory, its modular design releasing you from the constraints of more conventional setups. The extensive library of macros and modules combined with REAKTOR's clear, uncomplicated interface turns the construction of sonic tools into an intuitive process.
[/Quote]

> that's true, however everybody knows than metro and in general 

> timing IS a problem in max - there was a lot of discussions about it,

i think there is a difference between the (known) sluggish timing of 

scheduler-based tasks and a "metro stopped working in the middle of a 

> a lot of explainations (it is because of the OS etc etc)

> however it is true than most (or all ?) other software i know CAN 

> display time ok, and keep a steady pulse....

there are ways in max (or to be precise, in msp) to accomplish sample 

accurate timing. and these have been extensively discussed on the 

> that's true, however everybody knows than metro and in general  
> timing IS a problem in max - there was a lot of discussions about it,
i think there is a difference between the (known) sluggish timing of  
scheduler-based tasks and a "metro stopped working in the middle of a  
performance" report.

> however it is true than most (or all ?) other software i know CAN  
> display time ok, and keep a steady pulse....

there are ways in max (or to be precise, in msp) to accomplish sample  
accurate timing. and these have been extensively discussed on the  
list before.


>> that's true, however everybody knows than metro and in general timing 

>> IS a problem in max - there was a lot of discussions about it,

> i think there is a difference between the (known) sluggish timing of 

> scheduler-based tasks and a "metro stopped working in the middle of a 

I suppose several of us have seen the problem of metro dying from time 

to time, some more often than others. I know Tim had some serious 

problems on one computer while another computer worked fine awhile back. 

To the best of my knowledge I don't think anyone have been able to nail 

it and present the kind of reproducible situation required in order to 

track down and solve the problems once and for all. Personally I have 

seldom been struggling with this problem, but it has happened a few 

>> that's true, however everybody knows than metro and in general timing 
>> IS a problem in max - there was a lot of discussions about it,
> i think there is a difference between the (known) sluggish timing of 
> scheduler-based tasks and a "metro stopped working in the middle of a 
> performance" report.

I suppose several of us have seen the problem of metro dying from time 
to time, some more often than others. I know Tim had some serious 
problems on one computer while another computer worked fine awhile back. 
To the best of my knowledge I don't think anyone have been able to nail 
it and present the kind of reproducible situation required in order to 
track down and solve the problems once and for all. Personally I have 
seldom been struggling with this problem, but it has happened a few 
times over the past 3 years.

[[ it slices. it dices. but it can't tell time. ]]

I've definitely finished complicated drum patches, hit play and 

wondered why I wrote it. Because even normal metro events don't 

"feel" very stable. when I say "feel" I mean the minute timing that 

makes a drummer good. I've gone in with protools and used beat 

detective. I mean we are making MUSIC right?

Is there a way to sync the scheduler with metro or vice versa? that 

I know the following is not pragmatic, but I always felt like max 

signals should just be adjustable rate. I think Gregory Taylor said 

something about PD doing this? Audio would just be a list of floats 

for each vector. And jitter would just be symbols that say 

jit_matrix u142000077. in a perfect world we could just option 

click out patch cables and set the resolution. that way we could use 

all the Max objects we wish we had in MSP and Jitter. Even something 

like compressed MP3-ish variable bit rate signals would help for 

because why should I use a 44.1kHz 24bit signal for my program's 

pipe dreams. this is what I wonder about.. I need a life.

[[ it slices.  it dices. but it can't tell time. ]]

I've definitely finished complicated drum patches, hit play and  
wondered why I wrote it.  Because even normal metro events don't  
"feel" very stable.  when I say "feel" I mean the minute timing that  
makes a drummer good. I've gone in with protools and used beat  
detective.   I mean we are making MUSIC right?

Is there a way to sync the scheduler with metro or vice versa? that  
might do the trick.

I know the following is not pragmatic, but I always felt like max  
signals should just be adjustable rate. I think Gregory Taylor said  
something about PD doing this?  Audio would just be a list of floats  
for each vector.  And jitter would just be symbols that say  
jit_matrix u142000077.   in a perfect world we could just option  
click out patch cables and set the resolution.  that way we could use  
all the Max objects we wish we had in MSP and Jitter.  Even something  
like compressed MP3-ish variable bit rate signals would help for  
simple audio signals.

because why should  I use a 44.1kHz 24bit signal for my program's  
metronome?

pipe dreams.  this is what I wonder about..  I need a life.


> Personally I have seldom been struggling with this problem, but it 

> has happened a few times over the past 3 years.

aha, ok. (fortunately) never happend to me either.

>  Personally I have seldom been struggling with this problem, but it  
> has happened a few times over the past 3 years.

could you elaborate on this (I don't follow your "combine two working

> a) you have to be aware of the way max works underneath

> the objects. Especially the way max uses different event-

> handling mechanisms to accomplish different tasks.

> b) if you are not, a lot of inexplainable things happen

> that have the same effect as a bug (eg "why doesn't this

> work, all I did was combining two working helpfiles?")

could you elaborate on this (I don't follow your "combine two working
helpfiles" example):

> a) you have to be aware of the way max works underneath
> the objects. Especially the way max uses different event-
> handling mechanisms to accomplish different tasks.
> b) if you are not, a lot of inexplainable things happen
> that have the same effect as a bug (eg "why doesn't this
> work, all I did was combining two working helpfiles?")

sory if i am missing out on some major and well known max insides, but isnt the cpuclock object precise enough for testing timing, max patches for cpu efficiency, etc.? since it ouputs numbers generated by the processor, max's scheduler should have no influence on the output of timecount. am i horibly wrong?

sory if i am missing out on  some major and well known max insides, but isnt the cpuclock object precise enough for testing timing, max patches for cpu efficiency, etc.? since it ouputs numbers generated by the processor, max's scheduler should have no influence on the output of timecount. am i horibly wrong?

If anyone would care to try a sample-accurate metronome in UB format, you can find it at this URL:

http://eamusic.dartmouth.edu/~eric/MAX/SAMM/

>If anyone would care to try a sample-accurate metronome in UB format,

means it won't work on mac PPC, max 457 ???

> means it won't work on mac PPC, max 457 ???

Dunno. It should be fine on both PPC or Intel, but I only tested it on Mintel hardware. If it doesn't work on your machine, let me know and I could try going native :)

XP max has a horrible bug where holding down the mouse button inside an object box which is in text entry mode will cause the cpu to spike to 100%, making timing even crummier :/

You know Chuck? I love it's title, I almost feel like it's an antithesis of an unspoken issue with Max and timing.

"Strongly-timed, Concurrent, and On-the-fly "

Strongly timed! I really think that should be the core of Max. It does so much stuff, yet it's so easy to wrack hell onto the scheduler with just basic patching or user input. Oh well!! I'll still use it =)

You know Chuck? I love it's title, I almost feel like it's an antithesis of an unspoken issue with Max and timing. 

Strongly timed!  I really think that should be the core of Max.  It does so much stuff, yet it's so easy to wrack hell onto the scheduler with just basic patching or user input.  Oh well!! I'll still use it =)


> > means it won't work on mac PPC, max 457 ???

>Dunno. It should be fine on both PPC or Intel, but I only tested it 

>on Mintel hardware. If it doesn't work on your machine, let me know 

when I launch the help patcher, the el.samm~ object appears made 

with dotted lines (as when an object is not found) - however no error 

and of course el.samm~ is where all other 3rd party externals are, so 

turning audio, and trying does not produce anything (any effect)

I tried changing the name to el.samm~ (without .mxo) - does not change anything

>  > means it won't work on mac PPC, max 457 ???
>
>Dunno. It should be fine on both PPC or Intel, but I only tested it 
>on Mintel hardware. If it doesn't work on your machine, let me know 
>and I could try going native :)

when I launch the help patcher, the el.samm~  object appears made 
with dotted lines (as when an object is not found) - however no error 
messages in max window (as it should be)

and of course el.samm~ is where all other 3rd party externals are, so 
this is not the problem

I have had a couple of strange crashes lately, the latest one five 

minutes ago when hitting command + z buttons.

MacOsX.4.7 ,Max/msp 4.6.1 ,jitter 1.6.1, MacBook Pro 2.0ghz 1gig ram.

Hi!
I have had a couple of strange crashes lately, the latest one five  
minutes ago when hitting command + z buttons.
Have attached an crash repport.

Urgent request for the programmers of MAX/MSP