xh9o

i hate saying this, but what the hell? the new object explorer is a horror. it looks ugly, it´s over-optioned and right now it doesn´t even work. i can´t get it to the screen a second time (it doesn´t show up via doubleclick, and not via right/menu select), first time it was not possible to just make a new object. given that this is the primal key to the entire thing you use 10 times per minute.

well-fcuk-it

talkin' bout Max6? you probably want to post this to the 'Beta' part of the forum as we were instructed by the sticky:

https://cycling74.com/forums/forum.php?id=11

for newobject, seems you can just as easily type 'n' on your keyboard.

[Edit: sounds like you got problems specific to your computer... double-clicking to get the explorer works fine for me, same with right-clicking... maybe specify what version of osx? (i'm on osx 10.6.8)]

talkin' bout Max6? you probably want to post this to the 'Beta' part of the forum as we were instructed by the sticky:
https://cycling74.com/forums/forum.php?id=11

[Edit: sounds like you got problems specific to your computer... double-clicking to get the explorer works fine for me, same with right-clicking... maybe specify what version of osx? (i'm on osx 10.6.8)]


well in this i don´t think details matter more than the general aspect of the explorer being overloaden (get: a hammer doesn´t need a motor by default). i switched from usual daw towards max because of getting away from those full-feature-for-any-idiot bullshit other applications tended to offer more and more. but hey, that´s just the regular thing going on the "market of growth" - adopting to stupidity and "comfort" to reach more people. quantity over quality. but on midterm this usually is where a product line fades into the state of becoming obsolete.

best bug report ever.
*world's smallest violin*
*tears*


well, it´s less about bugs. the concept of trading "workflow" for "decreased learning curve" is just anything but exciting.

it sounds like there's a bug when you double-click sometimes and don't get the object explorer? (windows has been a slower development in the past... but they get it up to speed)

with keyboard shortcuts, i never see the object explorer if i don't want to. but i feel your pain to some degree: there are things like patch-chord context-menu-arrows and object wheels which i don't need. (you can hold down shift to keep the wheel from appearing, though, so for the most part i have no slowdown in workflow... but i understand everyone works differently.)

it's still in beta, though. this of all times is the best chance to change it with patient requests, bug reports, and functionality complaints.

sure the bug was like the pushing drop, but i´m far more thrown back by the general feel i got from a first review. bugs will be gone, but changes in concept and attitude will remain. and it´s one of those bad rules in things, that with options comes diffusion. it´s a quality to afford a NO sometimes. what´s deal about having explanations on the screen whenever i select oder enter an object? it kills atmophere, it feels stupid all the way. they´d better invested in a complete manual/handbook concept for beginners instead of spoiling the daily base work.

Sounds like you'd prefer that the extra pointers offered by Max 6 were optional? I would have asked politely in the first place if that's what's bothering you so much.

I for one think it's great that the hardworking people at Cycling are putting in the extra material in a more easily accessible fashion than a 'complete manual/handbook'. The attitude being set out here is that learning, accessibility and expanding the community are important things (and they are).

If you're out, you're out but I'd suggest taking a slightly more sympathetic attitude to Cycling's current goals, maybe with some constructive feedback based on your experiences so far. What I've seen so far in Max 6 is a highly refined version of something that's been gathering speed for a long time, offering even more opportunities for people to expand their knowledge (for both long-time and new users).

Also, if you hate it that much why not just stick with Max 5 and save us the tantrum?

well i think in my criticism i´m far more constructive, at least for the party i´d vote for. guess that´s the essence of that term called debate?

and yeah, i´m not hooked so much on "fashion". my girl´s most pretty without.

"i´m not hooked so much on "fashion". my girl´s most pretty without."

i´m not hooked so much on "fashion". my girl´s most pretty without.

not programmed to be your passion, not hardwired to be devout.

Well paced to get pure and simple, or pure and simply set the pace,

Your object orientation, is objectively out of place.

i´m not hooked so much on "fashion". my girl´s most pretty without.
not programmed to be your passion, not hardwired to be devout.
Well paced to get pure and simple, or pure and simply set the pace,
Your object orientation, is objectively out of place.

"Also, if you hate it that much why not just stick with Max 5 and save us the tantrum?"

This is a forum for us to discuss the software we use and test. He's entitled to his opinion. I for one agree with xh90; there seems to have been a lot of time spent on making Max easier to learn. I would be more inclined to spend my hard-earned cash on an upgrade if said time had been spent improving an outdated codebase instead. But the curved patchcords will probably help take some of the Bidule market share, so it's a shrewd move.

"World's tiniest violin"? Come on, some of us are arguing for the benefit of all users - we'd rather not have to buy new computers _again_ just to keep up.

ja, ja, those percentages of speed loss *anywhere* in the app mean the world to some of you..totally outweighing any gains in other areas, like polyphony....*but* just to be honest here:

inappropriate forum! there is a sticky beta-forum, why are these Max6 threads not in there?

ja, ja, those percentages of speed loss *anywhere* in the app mean the world to some of you..totally outweighing any gains in other areas, like polyphony....*but* just to be honest here:
inappropriate forum! there is a sticky beta-forum, why are these Max6 threads not in there?


OK, wrong forum, but I don't have the power to move it! Oh, and speed loss = more CPU usage = ultimately less polyphony :/

It's one thing not to agree with fellow customers' disappointment, but another thing altogether to mock them for finding fault. I'm trying to point out things that could be improved so that both you and I can have a better product. There's no need for friendly fire. If Max is perfect for you, then be happy, but be prepared to accept that some of us have higher standards. We're not wrong, we just push MSP closer to the limit.

To complain Repeatedly, after software is released, when there is little if any chance they can do much about many of the issues, well that is annoying. And the lack of consideration of other users shown by ignoring the kindly opened forum for discussing these issues: again annoying. To act as if you are a heroic voice for truth, ignored by the evil C74 developers, again ANNOYING.

Now, I *know* 'annoying', I have both the skill and practice to be a truly hated force of annoyance here in the forum; but I *try* to hold back, because, well, I recognize a hopeless task when I see it, and I cannot possibly keep up with the deeply annoying, repetitive and *rude* expressions of basically the same complaints from the earlier major release, by basically the same people....

Now , how much do you think the expressed annoyance with the complaints are due to them being complaints, and how much due to a perceived INCESSANT rude tone, as if your opinions are some "gold standard", and the hard working developers, with so many issues to balance are somehow *evil* to not give you what you want..when obviously they could (but actually, u don't know that!)

Seriously, i am not the only annoyed member of this list. If you would couch your issues with *any* degree of humility or deference, they might be considered in kinder light. But the same 4 or 5 people are complaining AGAIN, about the same stuff and in the same QUITE irritating way!! Seriously, check the others who are annoyed/amused by the predictable tumult of complaints from the usual complainers. And just as predictably, here I am being an A** because their attitude "GRIPES MAH TAIL" as is said here in the deep south.

Go Code your own, if you are so upset with Cycling74's code, eh? Or just ask about these issues in a *nice* way, and listen to the reason behind the decisions made, with sympathy and understanding, and well, your opinions might be respected and reacted to in kindly ways. Amazing how all that works.

as for MaxMSPJitter limiting you by slowing down ...to many of us, you don't seem to want to accept any limits in your world,or acknowledge that the limits might be unavoidable: at best this makes you impatient and demanding; at it's worst, science has a word for such a personality: sociopathic. I am sorry you "have" to buy modern machines. Really, you don't!!! just don't upgrade. And we do not need to hear anymore about it.

Really! You can and DO keep up this speed issue as a constant whine, and yes, it is like " but why can't this lightbulb be even more efficient", or "why cant this food be *more* nutritious"...true, BUT ALWAYS TRUE!!!! We can always hope for better speed, but the improvements in the app for 4 to 5 to 6 have been amazing and so very helpful , well, I accept that some things might have slowed a bit: seems like that's the best tradeoff. You want better? Well then, you found your own company, you develop your own software. Or just ask *kindly* again for what you have asked for repeatedly. To be honest, I think we know your needs by now.

Now, I *know* 'annoying', I have both the skill and practice to be a truly hated force of annoyance here in the forum; but I *try* to hold back, because, well, I recognize a hopeless task when I see it, and I cannot possibly keep up with the deeply annoying, repetitive and *rude* expressions of basically the same complaints from the earlier major release,  by basically the same people....
Now , how much do you think the expressed annoyance with the complaints are due to them being complaints, and how much due to a perceived INCESSANT rude tone, as if your opinions are some "gold standard", and the hard working developers, with so many issues to balance are somehow *evil* to not give you what you want..when obviously they could (but actually, u don't know that!)
Seriously, i am not the only annoyed member of this list. If you would couch your issues with *any* degree of humility or deference, they might be considered in kinder light. But the same 4 or 5 people are complaining AGAIN, about the same stuff and in the same QUITE irritating way!! Seriously, check the others who are annoyed/amused by the predictable tumult of complaints from the usual complainers. And just as predictably,  here I am being an A** because their attitude "GRIPES MAH TAIL" as is said here in the deep south.

as for MaxMSPJitter limiting you by slowing down ...to many of us,  you don't seem to want to accept any limits in your world,or acknowledge that the limits might be unavoidable: at best this makes you impatient and demanding; at it's worst, science has a word for such a personality: sociopathic. I am sorry you "have" to buy modern machines. Really, you don't!!! just don't upgrade. And we do not need to hear anymore about it.
Really! You can and DO keep up this speed issue as a constant whine, and yes, it is like " but why can't this lightbulb be even more efficient", or "why cant this food be *more* nutritious"...true, BUT ALWAYS TRUE!!!! We can always hope for better speed, but the improvements in the app for 4 to 5  to 6 have been amazing and so very helpful , well, I accept that some things might have slowed a bit: seems like that's the best tradeoff. You want better? Well then, you found your own company, you develop your own software. Or just ask *kindly* again for what you have asked for repeatedly. To be honest, I think we know your needs by now.

'"World's tiniest violin"? Come on, some of us are arguing for the benefit of all users - we'd rather not have to buy new computers _again_ just to keep up.'

I was just joking around(as I am now) about the melodrama, that's all. I'm entitled to my personality just as yer entitled to yer view. Geez, everyone takes themselves so damn seriously. :)

You're right, it is pointless. It seems like only praise for Max is allowed here. And by your logic, if I have a complaint, I'm supposed to pre-emptively voice it _before_ a beta's released, eh? I see.

To those who don't hate me and my whinging, it's been great fun and I'll miss you.

And to those who do, I'll do something nice for you and push off for good.

First, the product has not been released yet; its a beta. Granted; a beta usually is the first step towards the end product, where the eventual shape has already been determined, but its 

 the step where the company shows the current result to the market and then simply 

Personally I wouldn't weigh James' opinion on the thread location too much. No personal offense intended here, but here he's saying that the wrong forum is being used (correct). Yet in 

 he does the same while this time it is in the right forum. Can't have it both ways. Not to mention that I don't think C74 would care so much either way as long as its not an heavily disruptive thread, which in this case I don't think it is.

I tend to agree with some of the OP's points, yet less strongly, but I'd first want to stress out that this is a beta. When stuff behaves funny its quite possible to be a bug.

I consider myself a 'die hard' Max programmer, not in the sense that I know Max inside-out; far from it. But in the sense that I have gained quite some experience with it over the past 2 years.

While I relied heavily on the palette and 'object menu' in the beginning, now I hardly touch those. I've spend a couple of hours with Max6 and only during the end of the evening did I take a look at the Object explorer and noticed that the 'object menu' was gone. These days I more often hit "control-?" for the help screen ("Objects a-z" or "Objects by function" for example) as well as control-shift-r for the reference page.

But for both yah & nay sayers here: That doesn't mean that we all approach this in the same manner. As such all comments are valuable IMO; at the very least to give you an insight as to how others approach certain aspects as workflow.

 don't use the palette anymore doesn't make it less important. Same applies to other stuff.

Still, having said that... C74 have done more besides GUI changes of course, as explained in the 'whats new' section. Audio engine, mixer for routing, and the new "filterdesign" and "plot~" objects look extremely useful to me. I'm also anxious to see if there's anything new with Java support.

Just my 2 cents, I plan to write up a full "first impression" in "the other forum" :-)

First, the product has not been released yet; its a beta. Granted; a beta usually is the first step towards the end product, where the eventual shape has already been determined, but its also the step where the company shows the current result to the market and then simply needs input, "good" or "bad".

Personally I wouldn't weigh James' opinion on the thread location too much. No personal offense intended here, but here he's saying that the wrong forum is being used (correct). Yet in another thread he does the same while this time it is in the right forum. Can't have it both ways. Not to mention that I don't think C74 would care so much either way as long as its not an heavily disruptive thread, which in this case I don't think it is.

But just because I don't use the palette anymore doesn't make it less important. Same applies to other stuff.

Still, having said that...  C74 have done more besides GUI changes of course, as explained in the 'whats new' section. Audio engine, mixer for routing, and the new "filterdesign" and "plot~" objects look extremely useful to me. I'm also anxious to see if there's anything new with Java support.

Just my 2 cents, I plan to write up a full "first impression" in "the other forum" :-)


Looking back, my 'tantrum' comment was a little unfair really so I retract that sentence. I did understand where xh9o was coming from and I respect that everyone can voice their opinion. I suppose on first read it seemed more like an angry rant than constructive feedback, or at least the point was clear but the tone of it impeded the argument. Either way, I'm not looking to start a fight!

As for the rest of the thread, I guess this demonstrates that different people have different attitudes about lots of things. I guess we'll see how much diversity can be accommodated as the software trundles along.

@xh90 By the way, cuss words in the title of your post mean the Max forum is now filtered at school. Thanks.

I just changed the title slightly*. Is it better?

* No, I have no professional ties to French Connection UK

first i don´t care about cpu usage, as far as i know version 6 even improved here for some cases? i´m talking about one thing which is the most basic - the call of the object menu and the design of that menu, now called "explorer". the most important things about any central tool is handyness. and max, despite all new and certainly absolutely great improvements, lost that point to some degree. which of course overweighs anything else because it so goddamn central. that´s what most do the most with max: choosing objects. and sorry, but usually you don´t need an explanation for an object you´ve used once or twice. this is totally obsolete and therefore not worth the kill in workflow (again: not cpu).

the politics is clear, and it´s not a shame per se. new customers are welcome and sure, bigger wires look better. but it´s a horror to work with them and leaving behind central approaches just ain´t a very good statement in general.

and your response (quite level and not angry) makes clear who understand

that the number one issue with the software in their usability tests was

the learning curve and it's biggest component was presentation of available resources and their documentation.

So obviously for someone who knows what they can and will do with Max, the new 'helpers' are excessive. But I kinda like the way they (the new helpers) help draw me into areas of the software I am not so familar with (jitter) by their clarity and verboseness.

As it was in Max5 I was using the object menu less and less: mostly for the ui objects I never bothered to learn the name of, smile.

i think with a little configuration, and perhaps a few learned keystroke patterns, we can set up the max6 workflow to be well, *almost* as fast.

There are possibilities: one could perhaps recreate the orig max4 "top of patcher" menu in javascript, only customizable for your most common/fav objects. Open one of these in a devloping patch, and shut the normal object menu down (havn't tried to fully shut it down, is this possible?)... most objects created by typing the well known name. '*~','buffer~', etc. just thinkin'...

What I'm really saying is Think Positive; this *is* the best Max release yet... we just need to relearn a few things, get comfortable and continue to develop within it...

righteous anger most often is, I've learned to much personal chagrin.

@xh90 - good point,
and your response (quite level and not angry) makes clear who understand
that the number one issue with the software in their usability tests was
the learning curve and it's biggest component was presentation of available resources and their documentation.
So obviously for someone who knows what they can and will do with Max, the new 'helpers' are excessive. But I kinda like the way they (the new helpers) help draw me into areas of the software I am not so familar with (jitter) by their clarity and verboseness.
As it was in Max5 I was using the object menu less and less: mostly for the ui objects I never bothered to learn the name of, smile.
i think with a little configuration, and perhaps a few learned keystroke patterns, we can set up the max6 workflow to be well, *almost* as fast.
There are possibilities: one could perhaps recreate the orig max4 "top of patcher" menu in javascript, only customizable for your most common/fav objects. Open one of these in a devloping patch, and shut the normal object menu down (havn't tried to fully shut it down, is this possible?)... most objects created by typing the well known name. '*~','buffer~', etc. just thinkin'...
What I'm really saying is Think Positive; this *is* the best Max release yet... we just need to relearn a few things, get comfortable and continue to develop within it...
questions and desires are not bad...
righteous anger most often is, I've learned to much personal chagrin.

"I just changed the title slightly*. Is it better?"

There are never any terms and conditions posted for using this site. Most site's have terms and conditions you must agree to, to be a member. This one does not. Perhaps instead of trying to attack all the effects, it's about time C74 got smart and nipped it at the source/cause by creating some terms and conditions which users must agree to when signing up.

I deleted all my posts because Andrew Pask told me to 'shut down' a thread in which i referred to myself as a sandnigger. But here in this country, it is perfectly legal to refer to yourself with your own racial epithet. Not to mention the lack of terms and conditions on these forums. (If I can't have my real voice, simply because Cycling74 is ignorant of the law, I'll be damned if I'll leave my voice up in any way that's beneficial to others here.) Cycling74 may want to put some terms and conditions already. I am not sue-happy, but others might be and you could face a lawsuit if you stifle people's freedom of speech in this way. The way to ensure these things don't happen is to establish some terms of conditions for this site. Not just police it like some fascist regime who only expose the laws they uphold AFTER punishing everyone for not following them.

P.S. I'M A SANDNIGGER AND PROUD OF IT. :)

"i feel that i'll never see maxMSP running on LINUX ; i understand that cycling74 have to make choices ; but as a customer i have to make choices too......You are right ; i leave ;-)"

Oh Shit! This from one of the most helpful veterans I have ever encountered on this forum. THIS. IS. BAD. (and ya, Linux needs to happen... even if it's not the coolest thing for the Linux community to have to pay for something like this.)

"And to those who do, I'll do something nice for you and push off for good."

Nah, Don't Leave Chris! I LOVE that you spoke your mind. But you have to understand, you set an example for others to do the same. That's the only thing going on here: everyone's talking and no one is listening(i mean 'really' listening... not even Cycling74: they're too busy to address anything beyond doing so in the usual polite, diplomatic, customer-support way, which may be completely fake and blowing off everyone, but is still the best they can do. Give em a break. Maybe they'll change more and more towards something that's actually helpful).

Raja, shut up. As reported by Luke Woodbury, the "fuck" was causing the entire forum to be blocked by academic content filters, so I fixed it. I didn't change the title because I'm trying to uphold some moral standard, nor did I change the content of his post, nor is it difficult to determine what the original post title was. So give me a break and find something useful to complain about.

"and shut the normal object menu down (havn't tried to fully shut it down, is this possible?)"

though its kinda weird to program an own basic menu with [mousestate], this would be the only solution. but so far i don´t think it´s possible to switch off the default.

don´t get me wrong, for starters the new explorer is nice etc. but who´s a starter forever? please make it an option, not obligatory.

fwiw i am seeing 5-10% cpu gain when running my main system in max6. only time i am seeing a hit is when there is too much event clumping or when i intrude by doing a file op or something, then i get serious spikes.

i haven't tried having a thousand sig~ or *~ objects or anything cos i dont need to know what it does when it has a thousand *~ loaded. i mean come on...

i find it highly amusing that the form of the object palette (which can be ignored) is of prime concern to a user who claims to be experienced

fwiw i am seeing 5-10% cpu gain when running my main system in max6.  only time i am seeing a hit is when there is too much event clumping or when i intrude by doing a file op or something, then i get serious spikes.
i haven't tried having a thousand sig~ or *~ objects or anything cos i dont need to know what it does when it has a thousand *~ loaded.  i mean come on...   

i find it highly amusing that the form of the object palette (which can be ignored) is of prime concern to a user who claims to be experienced


Personally I find the tone and content of the OP rather pathetic and I would venture under-researched . . .

And to come from someone who has been on list for 3mths, and with how much experience?? Max 3? 4? or only 5?

Firstly I am pretty sure they would have checked that they could make an object before they released it - ok maybe not for an archaic OS like XP but it probably should work - I think most people had no problem . .

Double-clicking worked for me, as did right-click 'Show Object Explorer', even the old shift-command-O works . .

The Object Browser is also available as a Sidebar via the windows bottom rightcorner icons . . .

"what´s deal about having explanations on the screen" - this can be switched on/off with the 'eye' icon.

Perhaps you could have invested a bit more time checking things out instead of missing the obvious and mouthing off . . .

I don't mind it though I agree it could look a bit better - I preferred the old transparent HUD look,

I think the plain obj icons could be smaller and the text bigger,

The topic separators could be a lot thinner

The option of 'Object Details' is great but the space should also be resizable in the window.

There are still a few issues with it though that I have sent bug reports / suggestions in to C74 where I could actually prove and validate that there was actually going a bit askew

Personally I find the tone and content of the OP rather pathetic and I would venture under-researched . . .
And to come from someone who has been on list for 3mths, and with how much experience?? Max 3? 4? or only 5?

Double-clicking worked for me, as did right-click 'Show Object Explorer', even the old shift-command-O works .  .
The Object Browser is also available as a Sidebar via the windows bottom rightcorner icons . . .
"what´s deal about having explanations on the screen" - this can be switched on/off with the 'eye' icon.

Anyway re the Object Explorer;
I don't mind it though I agree it could look a bit better - I preferred the old transparent HUD look,
I think the plain obj icons could be smaller and the text bigger,
The topic separators could be a lot thinner
The option of 'Object Details' is great but the space should also be resizable in the window.

There are still a few issues with it though  that I have sent bug reports / suggestions in to C74 where I could actually prove and validate that there was actually going a bit askew

I'll chime back in for this. Raja, we may not agree on everything but I do love our chats! I think you're playing devil's advocate here, and while that may not be wise in the current climate, it sure is funny. But this is not about free speech!

Just for the record the name change was justified. There's little cause for profanity here. While I wasn't in the least bit offended, I hardly think it's "fascist" censorship to rearrange a few letters so that more people can access the forums.

I know you're run out of patience with my complaints. And yes, I concede that I've been rude, impatient, and demanding. I'm not going to dig out some of your choice posts from the past, but rest assured that you've been quite the unreasonable grump yourself, on several matters. Just stop reading if it gets you that hot under the collar. Your points about the new popup hints clueing you into unfamiliar parts of Max (in your case Jitter) are 300% valid. I wouldn't ever want to give the impression that I dislike the new hints about arguments, attributes and the like. One last thing: I just bought a "modern machine", damnit. Patches that once spiked up to 40% CPU are crashing and burning in Max 6. I'm sorry for drawing attention to this in such a harsh manner, but if nobody speaks up then c74 will surely assume everyone's happy. I evidently push MSP to the limit, but I'm not the only one.

c74 have to make a living, and they have to attract new customers. They are undoubtedly talented and hard-working, and as I've said before, I'm no match for either their business or their programming skills. So I'd like to take the opportunity to apologise for bringing unnecessary aggression to their table. You make a great product guys, and without you I would have to work a lot harder. Thank you for doing what you do.

So, as gently as possible, can I ask a couple of questions about Max 6?

1a. Does Max 6 make use of SSE parallelism, particularly with regard to the core MSP objects?

1b. If so, then thank you and well done for bringing a very old codebase into the present.

1c. If not, may I politely suggest that it is considered for the future? I think much of today's AV software relies on it in order to obtain decent performance. If it is indeed a viable way to improve CPU consumption, although updating hundreds of objects with SSE intrinsics is a huge amount of work, I'm sure many Max users would be overjoyed to find they could run big patches with less latency/more voices. The more experienced users among us would probably find it more useful than "noob features". While I'm very glad for the switch to 64 bit audio, it doesn't benefit all aspects of MSP, but it does seem like it slows it down a lot. If there are further improvements to this down the line it would make me (everyone?) very happy.

2. As a user, I am worried that a disproportional amount of time and resources are spent on making Max look friendlier to new customers. Accessibility and usability are hugely important, don't get me wrong, but by its very nature Max attracts customers of a, shall we say, geekier persuasion? I think the GUI and documentation in Max 5 was tremendous, but I question how much more user-friendly Max needs to be. This new beta has hampered workflow for quite a few people, in a number of little ways, all of which might be rectifiable without too much pain (again, I'm guessing here, so please correct me):

a) Autocompletion: The hassle of an extra keypress when creating objects may not seem like a big deal, but if it would speed up everyone's patching and silence the half-dozen or so complainers, perhaps to do so might not be a bad idea.

b) The new help system: I tend to go straight for the reference when I need help. The examples are cool, but they don't give you the nitty gritty. There is now an extra bit of clicking involved to pull up the reference. Petty? Yes. I'm a demanding pr!ck ;)

c) The wheel menu: Personally I find this annoying. It's one extra thing to avoid with the mouse pointer when you're trying to patch quickly. Some people may love it, but I haven't seen much support for it yet. I think 'geekier' people are pretty good at the occasional keyboard shortcut, and I just happen to prefer keys to over-cautious mousing.

d) I have made some polite comments about [play~], and how it lacks [groove~]'s nice new interpolation. I stand by these comments. Take away [groove~]'s loop logic and the internal playhead, and they are essentially the same thing. If it's not going to take too much time away from other development work, would it be possible to consider implementing the better-quality interpolation in [play~] please? I only ask because there have been a number of threads bemoaning [groove~]'s lack of sample-rate triggering. I know I'm not alone in this; I think if [play~] sounded as good as [groove~] people would be very very pleased. You may say, "code your own", and I am doing so, as we speak. But I _know_ c74 are better programmers than me, and they have seemingly already laid down the groundwork for an efficient and good-sounding interpolation algorithm. It would be a shame not to make the best possible use of it.

e) Would it be possible to re-introduce the neat feature of holding "cmd" to toggle the current snap-to-grid state? I really liked that feature; I thought it was great.

f) I think it would be a smart move to include Toshiro's [sa.function] in the main distribution, if you can work out a deal with him. It's too good an object to pass by - he may not be able to develop it in the future, and it would be a shame to lose such a good tool. Any thoughts?

I know I've repeatedly posted a big wishlist. Let's all try and post a few more wants, rather than just issuing congratulations. I'm not saying "stop being grateful"; more like "you don't get if you don't ask". So here I am, asking, not demanding. Some people may grow tired of my posts, but as Charles mentioned, they've given you a better idea of where I'd like Max to go. So where do *you* want Max to go? Don't be shy!

I am not a sociopath, nor am I a sycophant. My attitude stems from a *suspicion* that much of Max's core codebase is out of date, nothing more. I feel that c74, having licensed Miller Puckette's software, could be doing more to improve its performance, rather than letting it grow old while they work on slick interface tweaks. However, this does not constitute an attack; I wish them no ill. I applaud them for doing what they've already done. I would much rather use Max than pD. However, I won't be spending any more money on it until it eats a bit less CPU. I know I don't speak for many people on here, but there must be a helluva lot more users out there who don't use this forum, and I am willing to bet that quite a few have been upset at the apparent slowdown over the last 2 versions.

I know the above has been hashed out again and again, but I hope I've phrased a few things in a polite and respectful way this time.

Sorry if it's all just noise at this point.

@Charles:
I know you're run out of patience with my complaints. And yes, I concede that I've been rude, impatient, and demanding. I'm not going to dig out some of your choice posts from the past, but rest assured that you've been quite the unreasonable grump yourself, on several matters. Just stop reading if it gets you that hot under the collar. Your points about the new popup hints clueing you into unfamiliar parts of Max (in your case Jitter) are 300% valid. I wouldn't ever want to give the impression that I dislike the new hints about arguments, attributes and the like. One last thing: I just bought a "modern machine", damnit. Patches that once spiked up to 40% CPU are crashing and burning in Max 6. I'm sorry for drawing attention to this in such a harsh manner, but if nobody speaks up then c74 will surely assume everyone's happy. I evidently push MSP to the limit, but I'm not the only one.

Sorry if it's all just noise at this point.


I've been following this with interest and in detail, and have recently uninstalled the Max6 beta. The bottom line for me is, although I am considering upgrading/improving my system, I'm not likely to do it on top of the Max6 upgrade cost, purely because the new version demands it. I too have noticed a slight increase in CPU usage. On the face of it, as a novice geek, it seems to be all the graphic UI navigation fluff, so I can understand the concerns mentioned here. I started to lose my blind undying loyalty to Max/C74 the minute M4L came out. And please don't use my new profile to determine my 'ranking' - I've been using Max since 4.6, sure, I'm no 'silverbeard' but i think that's long enough.

"Personally I find the tone and content of the OP rather pathetic and I would venture under-researched . . .

And to come from someone who has been on list for 3mths, and with how much experience?? Max 3? 4? or only 5?"

well if that ain´t a profound argumentation.

"the form of the object palette (which can be ignored)"

tell me how. ok you can use shortcuts, but that would mean a dramatic change in the work flow of many cause you can´t do keyshortcuts with a mouse.

well, i think it´s pretty clear to everyone that the new first-usage friendliness has a too high cost on the longer term. over and out.

"Personally I find the tone and content of the OP rather pathetic and I would venture under-researched . . .
And to come from someone who has been on list for 3mths, and with how much experience?? Max 3? 4? or only 5?"

well if that ain´t a profound argumentation. 

well, i think it´s pretty clear to everyone that the new first-usage friendliness has a too high cost on the longer term. over and out.


press 'n' and then type the name of the object you want

I've improved the feel of creating objects by selecting the option "Create object box before showing explorer" in the explorer settings. This lets you double click a spot on the screen to create an object there, ready for typing, saving clicking a spot then hitting "n". Personal preference really... I should use the keyboard shortcuts more I guess...

The "hide explorer after creating object" option doesn't appear to do anything. it would be good if the popup explorer would close when I've finished creating my object. am I missing something here?

the "text completion" in Max 6 doesn't behave in the same way as 5 in that objects that are used more are shown higher up the list, plus you don't get true text completion like Max 5.

It would be great for the faster coders if there was an option to change this behaviour for both of these parts!

the "text completion" in Max 6 doesn't behave in the same way as 5 in that objects that are used more are shown higher up the list, plus you don't get true text completion like Max 5. 

@christripledot - I suspect the C74 staff will take your input and consider it seriously: given your passion, you seem to be quite the type of individual they are trying to reach.

As for the object menu & enhanced help in general as detriment: I find it is still just as easy to use as the previous menu, your mileage may vary: it is definitely larger, and more verbose, and perhaps better organized and more complete.

Still waiting for a need to experiment, or someone to report on the effect of the 

 in the preferences on various types of max/msp/jitter patchers...I suspect that different settings would benefit different types of patchers.

it is nice they allow this level of control: it may be a treasure trove of freed cycles, or a way to ruin all responsiveness, or both or neither: but I bet it is nice to be able to tweak these when approaching limits of your machine...

@christripledot - I suspect the C74 staff will take your input and consider it seriously:  given your passion, you seem to be quite the type of individual they are trying to reach.
As for the object menu & enhanced help in general as detriment: I find it is still just as easy to use as the previous menu, your mileage may vary: it is definitely larger, and more verbose, and perhaps  better organized and more complete.
Still waiting for a need to experiment, or someone to report on the effect of the scheduler parameters in the preferences on various types of max/msp/jitter patchers...I suspect that different settings would benefit different types of patchers.
it is nice they allow this level of control: it may be a treasure trove of freed cycles, or a way to ruin all responsiveness, or both or neither: but I bet it is nice to be able to tweak these when approaching limits of your machine...


"press 'n' and then type the name of the object you want"

well that aside being not able to use the mouse (which truly is the minor problem) requires to have all names in mind. it´s an option sure, but no substitute for a quick compact base menu.

commonly, we can call the new menu "verbose, large, complete". but that ain´t qualitative attributes, it´s all just quantitative. it´s like nonsense features. for a central tool with such a high rate of usage completeness, largeness, heaviness etc. maybe isn´t the smartest way to go. cycling74 always seemed to know and respect very basic design stuff like that, stuff that divides "genius reduction-product" from "good feature-product" it´s been part of the unique quality max provided. why giving up that? for some more pople giving some more cash? oh please. come on.

well that aside being not able to use the mouse (which truly is the minor problem) requires to have all names in mind. it´s an option sure, but no substitute for a quick compact base menu. 

commonly, we can call the new menu "verbose, large, complete". but that ain´t qualitative attributes, it´s all just quantitative. it´s like nonsense features. for a central tool with such a high rate of usage completeness, largeness, heaviness etc. maybe isn´t the smartest way to go. cycling74 always seemed to know and respect very basic design stuff like that, stuff that divides "genius reduction-product" from "good feature-product" it´s been part of the unique quality max provided. why giving up that? for some more pople giving some more cash? oh please. come on.


"As reported by Luke Woodbury, the "fuck" was causing the entire forum to be blocked by academic content filters, so I fixed it."

Oh, explaining it finally helps. You should try that more often. Just sayin' :D

"So give me a break and find something useful to complain about."

Hey, I posted well thought out comments on the max6 beta forum, not my problem if you couldn't care less because of a single post about a separate issue:)

Baaaahahahahahahahaha!! As if that'll ever work ;)

But my apologies for hurting everyone (i'm not easily offended, i'll try to remember that).

[Edit: I still think we need terms and conditions here. If we're all going to be on the same page about pandering to academia and it's censorship, then people should know what they can post and not(it's still underhanded and devious to just edit other people's words no matter what the intent). If nothing else, having 'terms and conditions'(as is common practice on the web), gives people the information they need to make a choice about what to post, what not to post, and whether to even participate here. It's only fair and professional.]

"Raja, we may not agree on everything but I do love our chats! I think you're playing devil's advocate here, and while that may not be wise in the current climate, it sure is funny."

Ya, you get me :) Thanks for having a sense of humor. It is rare to find here. I like checking in here every now and then to see if the climate has changed. Perhaps you are proof that it has.

(and 'wise' is not the right word. 'wisdom' has nothing to do with social conventions or the lack thereof. ;)

"well if that ain´t a profound argumentation." Well, Yes it is . .

I just pointed out that half your complaint is irrellevant due to your user error . . .

But I guess you'll just ignore that fact . . .

"well, i think it´s pretty clear to everyone that the new first-usage friendliness has a too high cost on the longer term. " Oh spare me, 'everyone'? Please do not attempt to speak on 'everyones' behalf, certainly not for me!

And why Raja has to end up copping crap because you can't come up with a sensible, civil title is beyond me.

Personally I think you (xxxx) should be copping it and perhaps should apologise to all concerned . . .

"well if that ain´t a profound argumentation." Well, Yes it is . .
I just pointed out that half your complaint is irrellevant due to your user error . . .
But I guess you'll just ignore that fact . . .

And why Raja has to end up copping crap because you can't come up with a sensible, civil title is beyond me.
Personally I think you (xxxx) should be copping it and perhaps should apologise to all concerned . . .


that's a good term. haven't heard that in awhile. just to interject... i like copping crap. i don't mind:

crap is fun to cop while coping with crap you've caught from any company you creep.

(oh sorry again. just sayin'. *ahem* carry on.)

well, fcuk it