Zyklus Improvisor concept

Sep 27, 2008 at 11:13am

Zyklus Improvisor concept

Hi Max/Msp friends,

first post here. About 2 months ago I purchased Max/Msp 5 for Windows. I’m currently in the process of making a “”realtime 8-track midi looper/sequencer”. The purpose of this patch is that you record a short riff/part in realtime let’s say for 2 bars, and when done recording put it instantly in a loop. So you don’t hear any difference between a recording and the looped playback of that part. Quantisation of recorded data is also possible. There are other features as well like transposing parts indepently and a general keytranspose in realtime, relative speed settings between parts and the length in beats of each part before looping starts.

This is already working. More features in the pipeline: arpeggiators and chordrecognition so that was recorded before can be translated to other scales in realtime when hitting a chord at the keyboard.

This idea originates from the “Zyklus Improvisor” discussion at KVR Audio forum.
link: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131409

I was wondering if anyone made something similar in the past also?

#40024
Sep 27, 2008 at 6:22pm

bronswerk skrev:
> Hi Max/Msp friends,
>
> first post here. About 2 months ago I purchased Max/Msp 5 for Windows. I’m currently in the process of making a “”realtime 8-track midi looper/sequencer”. The purpose of this patch is that you record a short riff/part in realtime let’s say for 2 bars, and when done recording put it instantly in a loop. So you don’t hear any difference between a recording and the looped playback of that part. Quantisation of recorded data is also possible. There are other features as well like transposing parts indepently and a general keytranspose in realtime, relative speed settings between parts and the length in beats of each part before looping starts.
>
> This is already working. More features in the pipeline: arpeggiators and chordrecognition so that was recorded before can be translated to other scales in realtime when hitting a chord at the keyboard.
>
> This idea originates from the “Zyklus Improvisor” discussion at KVR Audio forum.
> link: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131409
>
> I was wondering if anyone made something similar in the past also?
Sure. Ableton Live has all that, except perhaps the “relative
speed-setting” business, which involves one or two mouse-clicks.

How would this project differ from Ableton Live, exactly?
cheers,

Andreas.

#141298
Sep 27, 2008 at 6:27pm

I don’t know, I don’t use Live.

#141299
Sep 29, 2008 at 7:58am

bronswerk schrieb:
> I was wondering if anyone made something similar in the past also?

Well I have something like that I am constantly tweaking for more than a
decade, but I am not so much interested in bars and beats, more long
loops and delays. Its always fun…

Then there is Lloopp from Klaus Filip, Kenaxis, Jeff Kaiser made a
looper and of course Cyclings Radial. I guess there exist a lot of very
different similar patches like that…;-)

Andreas Wetterberg schrieb:
> How would this project differ from Ableton Live, exactly?

You can tweak it yourself… That’s a huge difference…
and congrats to get a patch with such a concept going within two months.
Another difference of course is, that its probably very much optimized
for yourself and maybe wouldn’t be as easy to learn for someone else
than the creator, but who cares…

welcome here, you might be interested in Loopers-Delight:

http://www.loopers-delight.com/loop.html they have a list as well…

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#141300
Sep 29, 2008 at 8:21am

bronswerk schrieb:
> This idea originates from the “Zyklus Improvisor” discussion at KVR
> Audio forum. link:
> http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131409

Finally read the thread, and now I get why Andreas asked for the
difference to Live. The Zyklus Improviser seems to be a very old pre
computer concept. Any sequencer, even out of the same period that
machine was designed, would be a thousand times more flexible and could
do the same in principle.

Out of a Max perspective that whole thread on KVR seems a bit naive and
out of a perspective which even wouldn’t include something like Reaktor…
Maxland is a different Planet, the problems these guys talk about just
don’t exist here, because you always have an instant solution and never
need to wait for a willing developer…;-) The whole Receptor concept is
anyway only attractive for People who are afraid of computers. Its a box
which hides the computer for the musician, to create the illusion he
isn’t using one….

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#141301
Sep 29, 2008 at 2:51pm

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Mon, 29 September 2008 02:21
—————————————————-
> Finally read the thread, and now I get why Andreas asked for the
> difference to Live. The Zyklus Improviser seems to be a very old pre
> computer concept. Any sequencer, even out of the same period that
> machine was designed, would be a thousand times more flexible and could
> do the same in principle.

> Stefan
—————————————————-

Stefan,you probably mean the Zyklus MPS because Zyklus Improvisor doesn’t excists today other then on paper. And still that sequencer had certain aspects still not found on any hardware sequencer today.

#141302
Oct 2, 2008 at 3:01pm

Okay, this forum is probably not the right forum for talk about sequencer concepts but much more for Max/MSP related things. And of course that should be! Thanks for the comments anyway.

#141303
Oct 2, 2008 at 5:27pm

Don’t let Stefan put you off.

Max evolved as a MIDI processing application long before most of the people posting on KVR were probably born. That’s not to say that the book has been written, in the slightest.

I really like this project

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~cema/nodal/

Mac only, I think.

-A

#141304
Oct 3, 2008 at 8:00am

bronswerk schrieb:
> Okay, this forum is probably not the right forum for talk about
> sequencer concepts but much more for Max/MSP related things.

Oh, it is, I just though that the Zyklus (hardware) concept didn’t sound
so interesting for me (very personal opinion…).

There are all sorts of sequencers created in Max, it seems, every second
Max beginner wants to create a step sequencer or a drum machine. And
they do…

Maybe the main difference in talk is, that we rarely talk about
concepts, we implement them. In fact, talking about concepts starts to
get interesting as soon you have an implementation. And I would like to
see discussions about it, but it would be your responsibility to create
interest. Best is if you start to actually create it…
Here is no separation between musician and developer, its usually the
same person. It is also interesting how much personal designs differ
from general designs which have to fit the needs of a lot of musicians…
That difference is what I mean with “being on a different planet…”

All the best, you are welcome,

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#141305
Oct 3, 2008 at 8:34am

Below an short explanation what Zyklus Improvisor is all about.

(This is the foreword of a detailed specification of the original Zyklus Improvisor specification.
NB: polyphonic transposition was removed in a later specification. The usefulness was uncertain.)

What is Improvisor?
The Zyklus Improvisor will allow a user to control up to 8 synthesisers at a time, switching them
on or off, zoning and transposing them as required. Any synthesiser can also be arpeggiated or
played by a sequencer in addition to being played ‘live’, and these sequences can be recorded
‘on the fly’ as creative instincts arise. The music need never stop. Additionally, up to four different
sequences or variations can be recorded in real-time for each active synthesiser and Improvisor
will allow 8 different ‘scenes’ to be stored for each of the 128 Songs. A scene represents which
sequence is playing on each synth, how it is being played and so on. This provides incredible
flexibility in being able to build up and improvise within a song, varying its elements in ways that
would be difficult to achieve using conventional sequencers.
But that’s just for starters… All running sequences can independently loop on any bar or beat,
can be transposed from the keyboard and triggered in various ways to give different effects.
Even polyphonic transposition is included whereby playing a chord can start the sequence
running at various pitches simultaneously. In fact, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of
combinations of the various triggering and manipulation controls. Each sequence or arpeggio can
also run at precise ratios relative to the global tempo for some great effects, plus the dynamics of
each note in the sequence or arpeggio can be controlled from any other sequence or arpeggio.
Not only that, but each note in each sequence or arpeggio can also be sent to alternative
synthesisers. ALL of this can be controlled easily in real-time without any interruption to the music.
A user will probably find that many of the features of Improvisor are being used more often than
others. Every control on the screen is thus able to be mapped to an external hardware MIDI
controller. There are a few other features in the proposal which are less exotic but nevertheless
useful. For example, just before a performance where you will play say, 28 songs, you find that
one of your synthesisers is not working. Since this particular synthesiser is used in most of the 28
songs, this would create a massive problem since all the outputs to that synth would have to be
mapped to an alternative synth for every song. Improvisor provides a convenient global remapping
facility for just this sort of situation. Not exactly a feature to get excited about, that is, until you
come to need it…
The Zyklus Improvisor is thus first and foremost designed for live performance where a number
of synthesisers must be centrally controlled in a manageable way. The extensive improvisation
facilities are entirely optional but are always there should experimentation and improvisation be
your thing.

#141306
Oct 3, 2008 at 7:08pm

Quote: bronswerk wrote on Fri, 03 October 2008 03:34
—————————————————-
> Below an short explanation what Zyklus Improvisor is all about.
>
> (This is the foreword of a detailed specification of the original Zyklus Improvisor specification.
> NB: polyphonic transposition was removed in a later specification. The usefulness was uncertain.)
>
> What is Improvisor?
> The Zyklus Improvisor will allow a user to control up to 8 synthesisers at a time, switching them
> on or off, zoning and transposing them as required. Any synthesiser can also be arpeggiated or
> played by a sequencer in addition to being played ‘live’, and these sequences can be recorded
> ‘on the fly’ as creative instincts arise. The music need never stop. Additionally, up to four different
> sequences or variations can be recorded in real-time for each active synthesiser and Improvisor
> will allow 8 different ‘scenes’ to be stored for each of the 128 Songs. A scene represents which
> sequence is playing on each synth, how it is being played and so on. This provides incredible
> flexibility in being able to build up and improvise within a song, varying its elements in ways that
> would be difficult to achieve using conventional sequencers.
> But that’s just for starters… All running sequences can independently loop on any bar or beat,
> can be transposed from the keyboard and triggered in various ways to give different effects.
> Even polyphonic transposition is included whereby playing a chord can start the sequence
> running at various pitches simultaneously. In fact, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of
> combinations of the various triggering and manipulation controls. Each sequence or arpeggio can
> also run at precise ratios relative to the global tempo for some great effects, plus the dynamics of
> each note in the sequence or arpeggio can be controlled from any other sequence or arpeggio.
> Not only that, but each note in each sequence or arpeggio can also be sent to alternative
> synthesisers. ALL of this can be controlled easily in real-time without any interruption to the music.
> A user will probably find that many of the features of Improvisor are being used more often than
> others. Every control on the screen is thus able to be mapped to an external hardware MIDI
> controller. There are a few other features in the proposal which are less exotic but nevertheless
> useful. For example, just before a performance where you will play say, 28 songs, you find that
> one of your synthesisers is not working. Since this particular synthesiser is used in most of the 28
> songs, this would create a massive problem since all the outputs to that synth would have to be
> mapped to an alternative synth for every song. Improvisor provides a convenient global remapping
> facility for just this sort of situation. Not exactly a feature to get excited about, that is, until you
> come to need it…
> The Zyklus Improvisor is thus first and foremost designed for live performance where a number
> of synthesisers must be centrally controlled in a manageable way. The extensive improvisation
> facilities are entirely optional but are always there should experimentation and improvisation be
> your thing.
—————————————————-

You can do all of this in some way in Ableton Live, so if it’s just about whether you can do all of that then I’d suggest not reinventing the wheel. If, however, the goal is to 1) learn in the process of creating and 2) have an environment that is suited to your specific way of working as Stefan said, then by all means, go for it. Just be aware that the “unconventional sequencer” angle has long been tapped by the Abes at this point.

#141307
Oct 4, 2008 at 8:05am

bronswerk schrieb:
> Below an short explanation what Zyklus Improvisor is all about.

Does it exist? Have you played with it? Are you going to do a Max
version of it?

What is lacking in the description is how to control all these
possibilities. How the user interface is designed. That is the most
crucial part and would tell if it is possible to improvise at all with
it or not (I guess there is a description in the full specs…)

It sounds actually like a personal design. Someone who made an
instrument for herself. Without touching such a beast, you can’t really
tell what it means…

For sure it is possible to implement it in Max. I would just skip all
these limitations to 8 (synths, sequences and whatever…)

If you didn’t touch it yet, I would just use the description as
inspiration, and start pretty small. Then add features to your own liking…

Good luck and happy patching…

All the best,

Stefan


Stefan Tiedje————x——-
–_____———–|————–
–(_|_ —-|—–|—–()——-
– _|_)—-|—–()————–
———-()——–www.ccmix.com

#141308
Oct 4, 2008 at 3:04pm

Quote: Stefan Tiedje wrote on Sat, 04 October 2008 02:05
—————————————————-
> Does it exist? Have you played with it? Are you going to do a Max
> version of it?

Like I said before, there is no such thing as Zyklus Improvisor (yet). It only excists on paper. What I’m doing is just my version of it.

> What is lacking in the description is how to control all these
> possibilities. How the user interface is designed. That is the most
> crucial part and would tell if it is possible to improvise at all with
> it or not (I guess there is a description in the full specs…)

Yes, there is a full specification how sequencers, controls etc should interact with each other. This pdf was on the net for about a year also available but not anymore because now a professional company is looking into it if they can make something like this. Unfortunately they are really slow and I’m not sure if this baby really comes alive in a commercial version, hence the reason why I’m doying this in Max. I’m tired of waiting :(

> It sounds actually like a personal design. Someone who made an
> instrument for herself. Without touching such a beast, you can’t really
> tell what it means…

Well, this design was developed by William (aka Bill) Marshall, who also designed the Direct sequencer for Vangelis. Not the least person…

> For sure it is possible to implement it in Max. I would just skip all
> these limitations to 8 (synths, sequences and whatever…)
>
> If you didn’t touch it yet, I would just use the description as
> inspiration, and start pretty small. Then add features to your own liking…

That’s just my idea ;)

#141309
Oct 4, 2008 at 5:09pm

David Huff skrev:
> Quote: bronswerk wrote on Fri, 03 October 2008 03:34
> —————————————————-
>
>> Below an short explanation what Zyklus Improvisor is all about.
>>
>> (This is the foreword of a detailed specification of the original Zyklus Improvisor specification.
>> NB: polyphonic transposition was removed in a later specification. The usefulness was uncertain.)
>>
> ——————–
>
> You can do all of this in some way in Ableton Live, so if it’s just about whether you can do all of that then I’d suggest not reinventing the wheel. If, however, the goal is to 1) learn in the process of creating and 2) have an environment that is suited to your specific way of working as Stefan said, then by all means, go for it. Just be aware that the “unconventional sequencer” angle has long been tapped by the Abes at this point.
Those were my words exactly. Now what I’d like to know (perhaps from
bronswerk) is how the implementation should be different from that
provided with Ableton Live.

Bronswerk, have a go at the demo version or something, http://www.ableton.com .

First part of the specification process (the “what”) is already in
place, now we just need to know the “how”.

Cheers,
Andreas

#141310

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